PDA

View Full Version : PPT question


jmf_tracy
02-06-2009, 12:41 PM
i already tried the search function, but i was hoping someone knowledgable could help me out with a question. i just did a PPT for a used gun and it was the same process as buying a new handgun complete with DROS. is this correct? my only concern is that i DROSed a new handgun less than 30 days ago and i am concerned about my transfer being rejected. as i understand it, you may DROS a handgun from an FFL every 30 days, but you can do as many PPT as you like because they are excempt from the 30 day rule, correct?
thanks,

jmf_tracy

bwiese
02-06-2009, 12:48 PM
As long at least one of the handguns was a true PPT of a used/consignment gun (i.e., the handgun is not really part of dealer inventory/ownership), that does not count against the "one new handgun a month" rule.

The "one handgun in 30 days" rule is really "one handgun from dealer inventory per 30 days" rule, and excludes PPT/consignment/inheritance/intrafamily xfers.

You can buy one new gun and a truckload of used/consignment PPT guns within a 30 day interval.

The FFL may get a call from BATF if the two guns were purchased within 5 days of each other. The dealer will just say "yeah, he also picked up a used gun he likes too" and there will be no drama. (This happened to me last year when I started DROS of two consignment handguns within 4 days of each other.)

ke6guj
02-06-2009, 12:49 PM
IIRC, the DROS should have some sort of marking that indicates that it was a PPT. that is how CADOJ knows that it is an exempt transfer. Some Calgunners have had the DROS for either a PPT or a Cosignment entered incorrectly as a regular DROS and gotten kicked backed as a 1-in-30 violation.

HowardW56
02-06-2009, 12:50 PM
i already tried the search function, but i was hoping someone knowledgable could help me out with a question. i just did a PPT for a used gun and it was the same process as buying a new handgun complete with DROS. is this correct? my only concern is that i DROSed a new handgun less than 30 days ago and i am concerned about my transfer being rejected. as i understand it, you may DROS a handgun from an FFL every 30 days, but you can do as many PPT as you like because they are excempt from the 30 day rule, correct?
thanks,

jmf_tracy

It is the same process and it isn't, if you look at the DROS form, there is a seller and a buyer listed.

In the DROS system the FFL processing the transaction has to select the PPT option to get the option to enter seller information.

If both buyer and seller aren't listed then, it wasn't processed as a PPT. Which leads to the question, did you purchase the used gun from a dealer?

jmf_tracy
02-06-2009, 12:59 PM
everybody - thanks so much for your replies. i did buy it from a person who met me at the FFL and they did record his info so it sounds like all is well.

bwiese
02-06-2009, 1:06 PM
everybody - thanks so much for your replies. i did buy it from a person who met me at the FFL and they did record his info so it sounds like all is well.

You're clean & clear. Enjoy your new toys.

jmf_tracy
02-06-2009, 1:16 PM
bwiese - thanks again!

munkeeboi
02-06-2009, 2:05 PM
Doesn't pertain to OP, but I believe Los Angeles City has a city ordinance that limits any handgun DROS, New from dealer or PPT, to 1 every 30 days.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.


As long at least one of the handguns was a true PPT of a used/consignment gun (i.e., the handgun is not really part of dealer inventory/ownership), that does not count against the "one new handgun a month" rule.

The "one handgun in 30 days" rule is really "one handgun from dealer inventory per 30 days" rule, and excludes PPT/consignment/inheritance/intrafamily xfers.

You can buy one new gun and a truckload of used/consignment PPT guns within a 30 day interval.

The FFL may get a call from BATF if the two guns were purchased within 5 days of each other. The dealer will just say "yeah, he also picked up a used gun he likes too" and there will be no drama. (This happened to me last year when I started DROS of two consignment handguns within 4 days of each other.)

bwiese
02-06-2009, 2:57 PM
Doesn't pertain to OP, but I believe Los Angeles City has a city ordinance that limits any handgun DROS, New from dealer or PPT, to 1 every 30 days.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

LA folks please speak up.

Yes, there could be some local drama in LA.

DDT
02-06-2009, 3:05 PM
Wouldn't PPTing be directly related to registering and licensing? Aren't local registering and licensing laws pre-empted?

bwiese
02-06-2009, 4:45 PM
Wouldn't PPTing be directly related to registering and licensing? Aren't local registering and licensing laws pre-empted?

Could be. But I know various locales' 'junk gun' or 'ultracompact gun' laws have held up for awhile.

ke6guj
02-06-2009, 5:01 PM
Yes, LA city has a 1-in-30 law that does not appear to exempt PPT or Cosignments. I'd post the code, but its a pain to track down.

Yes, preemption should void the law, but its the law until someone successfully sues them.


OK, here it is.

SEC. 55.14. SALE OR PURCHASE OF MORE THAN ONE HANDGUN WITHIN A THIRTY DAY PERIOD PROHIBITED.
(Added by Ord. No. 172,430, Eff. 3/4/99, Oper. 6/3/99.)

(a) The term “dealer” shall mean a retail firearms dealer licensed by the City of Los Angeles.

(b) No person shall make application to a dealer, as provided in Section 12072 of the California Penal Code, to purchase a pistol, revolver or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, herein referred to as “handgun”, within thirty (30) days of making a prior application for the purchase of a handgun within the State of California. In computing the thirty (30) day period, the date the application is made shall be counted as the first day.

(c) No dealer shall transfer the title of any handgun to any person whom the dealer knows has made application to purchase more than one handgun within the State of California within a thirty (30) day period prior thereto, nor shall any dealer process a handgun transaction between unlicensed parties pursuant to California Penal Code Section 12072 if the dealer knows that the one receiving the handgun has made application to purchase more than one handgun within the State of California within a thirty (30) day period prior thereto.

(d) No dealer shall transfer the title of any handgun to any person or process a handgun transaction between unlicensed parties pursuant to California Penal Code Section 12072 if the dealer prior to transfer has received notice from the California Department of Justice, herein referred to as the “DOJ,” that DOJ has received an application for that person to purchase a handgun within the State of California within a thirty (30) day period prior thereto. For the purposes of this subsection, the date of application of purchase shall be the date the DOJ receives the Dealer Record of Sale or receives the transmission of required information by any medium of communication authorized under state law.

(e) For the purposes of this section, the redemption of a handgun pledged to a pawnbroker shall not be deemed the sale, purchase or transfer of title of that handgun. However, a dealer may not rely on this exemption unless the purchaser provides proof that the transaction was the redemption of a handgun pawned to a pawnbroker by the purchaser.

(f) Each dealer shall maintain records of each sale of a handgun to include the name of the purchaser, type of handgun, date of sale, and any other information required by the Board of Police Commissioners. Such records shall be maintained on the premises of the dealer for a period of not less than two (2) years and shall be subject to inspection at any time during normal business hours.

(g) Each dealer shall post a sign in a conspicuous place with letters at least one inch high stating the obligations and restrictions of purchasers and dealers under this ordinance, pursuant to direction by the Board of Police Commissioners.

(h) The dealer shall require the purchaser, at the time of application for purchase, to indicate, on a form prescribed by the Board of Police Commissioners, whether he or she has or has not made an application for the purchase of a handgun within the last thirty (30) days, and which if any of the exemptions set forth in Subsection (i) is applicable to the purchaser. If any of the exemptions is checked, the restrictions of this section shall not apply, provided all necessary information is supplied to the dealer. The form shall be signed by the purchaser under penalty of perjury. Such form shall be maintained on the premises of the dealer for a period of not less than two (2) years from the date of signing and shall be subject to inspection at any time during normal business hours.

(i) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the following:

1. Any person who is licensed to sell firearms pursuant to Article 4, commencing with Section 12070, of the Penal Code of the State of California.

2. Any law enforcement agency.

3. Any agency duly authorized to perform law enforcement duties.

4. Any state or local correctional facility.

5. Any private security company licensed to do business in the State of California.

6. Any person who is properly identified as a full-time paid peace officer, as defined in Section 830.1, 830.2, 830.4, or 830.5 of the Penal Code of the State of California, and who is authorized to, and does, carry a firearm during the course and scope of his or her employment as a peace officer.

7. Any antique firearm, as defined in Paragraph (16) of Subsection (a) of Section 921 of Title 18 of the United States Code.

8. Any person or entity who purchases firearms in a collector’s series or a bulk purchase from an estate sale.

9. Any motion picture, television, or video production company, or entertainment or theatrical company whose production involves the use of a handgun, and which secures such handgun from unauthorized use.

10. Any person who is exempt from the waiting period in Subdivision (c) of Section 12072 of the Penal Code of the State of California.

11. Any person who is exempt from the provisions of Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 of the Penal Code of the State of California.

12. Any person or entity conducting a transaction through a law enforcement agency pursuant to Section 12084 of the Penal Code of the State of California.

13. Any person or entity conducting a transaction described in Subdivision (k) of Section 12078 of the Penal Code of the State of California.

14. Any person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44, (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, and who has a current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071 of the Penal Code of the State of California.

15. Any person or entity acquiring a handgun by bequest or intestate succession.

16. Any person or entity replacing a single handgun where the handgun was lost or stolen, and the person reported that firearm lost or stolen to the Los Angeles Police Department or appropriate law enforcement agency and presents the dealer with evidence of such reporting.

17. Any seller’s exchange or replacement of a handgun for a handgun purchased from that seller within the thirty (30) day period immediately preceding the date of exchange or replacement.

(j) Violation of Subsection (b) shall be punishable as an infraction subject to a fine of $50.00 for the first violation of that subsection, as an infraction subject to a fine of $100.00 for the second violation of the subsection and as a misdemeanor for the third or subsequent violations of that subsection. Each handgun applied for shall be deemed a separate violation.

(k) If any provision of this section is for any reason held to be invalid or unconstitutional by the decision of any court of competent jurisdiction within the State of California, such decision shall not affect the validity of the remaining provisions and the City declares that it would have adopted the remaining provisions irrespective of the fact that a provision or provisions are declared invalid or unconstitutional.

DDT
02-07-2009, 1:21 AM
Problem is that I'm sure if you went to the same dealer they'd refuse to do the transfer and if you went to different dealers they'd never bother to cross reference the forms and find you to prosecute. This means the bad law that should be voided will stand and violate the rights of anyone wanting to transfer in LA County. I suppose you could attempt to transfer twice within 30 days to build standing and then sue LA County once you are denied. Only problem is that you'd almost certainly have to sue the FFL as well and we really don't want to piss off the few that are left.