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H Paul Payne
02-05-2009, 6:25 PM
NRA Members' Councils of California
http://calnra.com/skin/mclogoclr2.gif (http://calnra.com)
CALNRA: Some Fish & Game Commissioners try to Expand Lead Ammo Ban STATE-WIDE
2/5/2009 3:00 PM - PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY

02/05/2009 - Today, the NRA Members' Councils of California learned that some members of the California Fish & Game Commission are planning to attempt to add the state-wide expansion of the limited lead ammunition ban (AB 821 from the 2007 legislative session) to their hearing agenda for 2009.

The California Fish & Game Commission is beginning the steps to justify a state-wide expansion of the Lead Ammo Ban that currently affects only certain hunting zones. The path is being cleared for a series of hearings in which pro-lead ban proponents can make the case for California-wide implementation of AB 821 (http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?summary=ab821&year=2007), a "lead ammo ban" that passed in 2007.

Please contact the Commission and voice your strong opposition to this plan. Visit and bookmark...
http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2009&summary=leadban
...for ONE-CLICK Contact Tools, more contact information and updates.

=======================================

This story is still developing. Please take action NOW! More to follow as we get it.......

Paul

easy
02-05-2009, 6:49 PM
Like you didn't expect this?

bwiese
02-05-2009, 8:12 PM
It's that time again to write, call, fax and make our voices (politely yet firmly) known.

It may be advantageous to go back to review talking points about lead ammo bans and our campaign against 2007's AB821.

I'll post the NRA's link contents here just to help spread the info - but continual checking at the CAL NRA site is best for latest news:

http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2009&summary=leadban



Issue: STATE-WIDE LEAD AMMO BAN
Latest Info: 02/05/2009 - Today, the NRA Members' Councils of California learned that some members of
the California Fish & Game Commission are planning to attempt to add the state-wide expansion of the
limited lead ammunition ban (AB 821 (http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml?summary=ab821&year=2007) from the 2007 legislative session) to their hearing agenda for 2009.

Please contact the Commission and voice your strong opposition to this plan.

California Fish and Game Commission
1416 Ninth Street
P.O. Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090

Phone Number.... (916) 653-4899
Fax Number......... (916) 653-5040

Stubby
02-05-2009, 9:24 PM
What was that old saying??? Oh yeah, if you give a mouse a cookie it will want a glass of milk:rolleyes: Looks like I will be giving them a polite call and remind them I dont like milk:D

aileron
02-06-2009, 5:38 AM
Talking points here if this is a ban on lead ammo not associated with condors.

http://michiganhuntingtoday.com/hooksandbullets/index.php/2008/11/12/cdc-lead-ammunition-study-backs-hunters/

CDC study on lead levels.

http://www.nssf.org/share/PDF/ND_report.pdf

ETA: It shows that if you eat meat shot with lead bullets there is an increase in lead levels in the blood for 30 days.


The CDC report on human lead levels of hunters in North Dakota has confirmed what hunters throughout the world have known for hundreds of years, that traditional ammunition poses no health risk to people and that the call to ban lead ammunition was nothing more than a scare tactic being pushed by anti-hunting groups....

.... For more than a century, hundreds of millions of Americans have safely consumed game harvested using traditional hunting ammunition, and despite there being no scientific evidence that consuming the game is endangering the health of individuals, special interest groups like the Peregrine Fund and anti-hunting groups are continuing to press state legislatures around the country to support a ban on this common, safe and effective ammunition.

These politically driven groups understand that while an outright ban on hunting would be nearly impossible to achieve, dismantling the culture of hunting one step at a time is a realistic goal. Banning lead ammunition is the first step of this larger political mission. We can only hope that with the conclusive CDC results concerning the safety of traditional ammunition, legislatures across the country will listen to science and not anti-hunting radicals....

Geodetic
02-06-2009, 7:30 AM
Is this just for hunting or shooting ranges as well? I'm sure they'll get around to that too.

Fate
02-06-2009, 8:44 AM
FGC <FGC@fgc.ca.gov>

Reply


The public comment period regarding "method of take" and "lead ammunition" is now closed.
Translation: Hands on ears. "Lalalalala...we're not listening!!!!"

Sunwolf
02-06-2009, 9:28 AM
I sent 6 e-mails anyway.Not going to hunt or fish or buy licenses in this state anymore.Neighboring states will gladly take my money.

1BigPea
02-06-2009, 9:32 AM
Email, Fax, Phone message sent. They're closed today because of the California budget mess so I'll call again on Monday.

Gator Monroe
02-06-2009, 9:45 AM
Like you didn't expect this?

Thats the excuse that Dem/lib posters will use when far more draconian restrictions overwhelm firearms owners in Ca. ?

mikehaas
02-06-2009, 10:43 AM
STATE-WIDE BAN ON LEAD AMMUNITION MAY BE AROUND THE CORNER

CAL-ERT posted at:
http://www.calnra.com/calerts/calert020509.shtml

(Written by Ed Worley and Paul Payne. Was also sent out as NRA-ILA's alert of 2/6.)

DisgruntledReaper
02-06-2009, 12:09 PM
Gee I guess we will have to shoot steel core stuff at the ranges ..but wait we cant because it starts fires ...and we cant hunt unless they are HP or SP...WTF---WHY cant there be a meteor hitting SAn *** cisco,Berkley,(ball-sacremento, where ever these WORTHLESS cancers on our land and our freedoms BREED...This WHOLE STATE and Country needs an ENEMA BIG TIME.

This has to have been thought up as a way to ban ammo sales in the state PERIOD..

Hey have they outlawed DP rounds? I have some of those..how about Tungsten?...Do i have to give up my anti werewolf silver bullets and wood bullets for vampires..

SORRY-:eek::icon_bs::no::rant:

mif_slim
02-06-2009, 12:34 PM
I faxed in my opinon. Hope more Californians will do so.

mif_slim
02-06-2009, 12:38 PM
Gee I guess we will have to shoot steel core stuff at the ranges ..but wait we cant because it starts fires ...and we cant hunt unless they are HP or SP...WTF---WHY cant there be a meteor hitting SAn *** cisco,Berkley,(ball-sacremento, where ever these WORTHLESS cancers on our land and our freedoms BREED...This WHOLE STATE and Country needs an ENEMA BIG TIME.

This has to have been thought up as a way to ban ammo sales in the state PERIOD..

Hey have they outlawed DP rounds? I have some of those..how about Tungsten?...Do i have to give up my anti werewolf silver bullets and wood bullets for vampires..

SORRY-:eek::icon_bs::no::rant:

If they cant take our guns, they'll take our ammo.
Since the 2nd Amd states firearms an nothing about ammo, they can try to take our ammo and that is what their doing right now!

bulgron
02-06-2009, 12:50 PM
If they cant take our guns, they'll take our ammo.
Since the 2nd Amd states firearms an nothing about ammo, they can try to take our ammo and that is what their doing right now!

A gun without ammo is worthless. And half of General Gage's arms confiscation attempts back preceeding the revolutionary war involved ammo, not guns.

We have a solid argument to make in court if they try to take our ammo.

That said, F&G isn't trying to take anything. They just don't want you to shoot lead ammo anywhere in California. Question: doesn't this exceed their authority, and can't we sue them over these kind of regulations?

missiondude
02-06-2009, 12:56 PM
I sent them an e-mail requesting that they not extend the ban statewide. Doubt it will actually do any good, but it will do as much as complaining about it here. When they get done screwing up the fishing off the socal coast, I can still fish in Mex, but if they F up the shooting even more, where will we go?

SwissFluCase
02-06-2009, 1:00 PM
I guess we will be stuck with this stuff...

http://www.seasonshot.com/

Regards,


SwissFluCase

97F1504RAD
02-06-2009, 1:58 PM
Sent my letter this morning

Sunwolf
02-06-2009, 4:38 PM
Keep on contacting them,our license fees pay them and we do have a say.

petey
02-06-2009, 5:01 PM
The key to fighting this is to show that the non-lead ammo that is available is not as accurate, nor as lethal.

My experience and the experience of others is that out of the box non lead ammo is not as accurate. For example, I cannot get more than a 2.5" group using the Winchester non-lead that I sampled. I can get sub 1" using plain ole Winchester white box on a good day, and never more than 2" on a bad one. Handloads will do better of course, but a vast majority of hunters do not handload.

The non-lead ammo does not penetrate as well either. I've heard multiple stories now of animals being wounded and needing follow up shots, or in a few cases, running off.

We need to start documenting this information. This would include range to the target or animal, elevation, and other pertinent information. Photographs would also help.

I think we can stand up to this by proving once and for all that the use of non-lead ammo will mean less accuracy and more wounded animals.

GuyW
02-06-2009, 5:18 PM
The key to fighting this is to show that the non-lead ammo that is available is not as accurate, nor as lethal.

My experience and the experience of others is that out of the box non lead ammo is not as accurate. For example, I cannot get more than a 2.5" group using the Winchester non-lead that I sampled. I can get sub 1" using plain ole Winchester white box on a good day, and never more than 2" on a bad one. Handloads will do better of course, but a vast majority of hunters do not handload.

The non-lead ammo does not penetrate as well either. I've heard multiple stories now of animals being wounded and needing follow up shots, or in a few cases, running off.

We need to start documenting this information. This would include range to the target or animal, elevation, and other pertinent information. Photographs would also help.

I think we can stand up to this by proving once and for all that the use of non-lead ammo will mean less accuracy and more wounded animals.

I don't see this as a winning argument.

The antis will just wave their hands and say no hunting until ammo that approximates SP hunting ammo is available that is accurate to a standard of 2" at 100 yds.

The best argument IMHO, is to hammer on a lack of factual basis that lead causes any harm to condors or anything but the shot animal. I think Regs _legally_ have to have a factual basis, as opposed to legislation (in which no facts have to be invoked).

.

tankerman
02-06-2009, 7:25 PM
It's interesting to note that none of the non-hunting crowd that regularly accuses hunters of doing nothing to support the broader 2nd amend. agenda have chimed in at all in supported of the effort to stop this absurd regulation.:rolleyes::thumbsup:

Hypocrisy at it's finest.

nick
02-06-2009, 7:27 PM
Sent an email for whatever good that'd do. I don't hunt, but those of us who aren't hunters still shouldn't ignore this issue. That's how we got the AW ban, by not being united.

nick
02-06-2009, 7:28 PM
It's interesting to note that none of the non-hunting crowd that regularly accuses hunters of doing nothing to support the broader 2nd amend. agenda have chimed in at all in supported of the effort to stop this absurd regulation.:rolleyes::thumbsup:

Hypocrisy at it's finest.

I beg to differ :p Now stop pointing fingers and start enlisting non-hunters :)

tankerman
02-06-2009, 7:55 PM
I beg to differ :p Now stop pointing fingers and start enlisting non-hunters :)That's what I did, my post was successful

nick
02-06-2009, 8:08 PM
That's what did, my post was successful

Nope, I was typing my post before I saw yours :p

bwiese
02-06-2009, 8:44 PM
This affects all, even non-hunters.

The camel's nose is in the tent for range elimination, etc.

petey
02-06-2009, 9:36 PM
I don't see this as a winning argument.

The antis will just wave their hands and say no hunting until ammo that approximates SP hunting ammo is available that is accurate to a standard of 2" at 100 yds.


A ban on hunting would have interesting effects.

1. The salaries for game wardens comes exclusively from the sale of hunting licenses-no money comes from the states general fund. With the budget crisis California has, the last thing they need is to take on that cost. Yes, they could increase taxes but the lawsuits will tie that up for quite some time.

2. In the scenario you propose, the government would have to test fire numerous rounds through numerous firearms. There is no money for this.

3. If hunting were banned, then the only reason for people to own guns would be target shooting and self defense. So much for the anti-gun argument that AW's should be banned because they can't be used for hunting.

7x57
02-06-2009, 9:43 PM
This affects all, even non-hunters.

The camel's nose is in the tent for range elimination, etc.

Darn tootin'. One way is to take advantage of innumerate legislators (that is to say, pretty much all of them). Let's talk regulations requiring, oh, let's try *zero possibility* of *contact* with groundwater.

IIRC, a smart legislator once thought it would be smart to forbid the transportation of *people* on highways. I am too lazy to look up the details, but that's what you get when you say you can only transport things with *zero* radioactivity. *People* are plenty radioactive, if you look close enough. So what analogous thing happens if you write laws about lead contamination with zero tolerance in them?

Of course, people also have *some* lead in them, so if you're not careful, it will be illegal to have them in the lead-ban area too. :eek:

7x57

11Z50
02-06-2009, 9:46 PM
I am soooooo sick and tired of this game warden bullshiz! Screw 'em. They are not real cops and they penalize the very people that pay their wages. DFG is a parking place for failed cops from other state agencies, or for those who are not smart enough to be real cops. I've personally seen their handiwork, and it suks. I for one, will not ever again pay the state of Kalifornia my hard-earned dollars to hunt and fish here. If we boycott these idiots, then sooner or later, they will get cut out of the Gov't dole. Imagine, especially right now, if they went one year with a 50% drop in income in hunting and fishing license fees, they'd be done. There are other states that welcome my money.

And no, I have never been cited, or accused of wrongdoing by DFG. In fact, I taught Hunter ed for them for 5 years.....go figure.

7x57
02-06-2009, 10:03 PM
Ah, great. That is pretty much what PETA and HSUS hope you will do. California laws metastasize, and the same law will be coming to those other states.

It's a losing strategy. Stay with the team and try to fight the cancer before it metastasizes all through the body.

7x57

nick
02-06-2009, 10:09 PM
Darn tootin'. One way is to take advantage of innumerate legislators (that is to say, pretty much all of them). Let's talk regulations requiring, oh, let's try *zero possibility* of *contact* with groundwater.

IIRC, a smart legislator once thought it would be smart to forbid the transportation of *people* on highways. I am too lazy to look up the details, but that's what you get when you say you can only transport things with *zero* radioactivity. *People* are plenty radioactive, if you look close enough. So what analogous thing happens if you write laws about lead contamination with zero tolerance in them?

Of course, people also have *some* lead in them, so if you're not careful, it will be illegal to have them in the lead-ban area too. :eek:

7x57

Isn't that the ultimate hippie goal (provided they have actual goals, not just something they feel at the moment)? The great mother Earth with no evil pollution humans?

7x57
02-06-2009, 10:17 PM
Isn't that the ultimate hippie goal (provided they have actual goals, not just something they feel at the moment)? The great mother Earth with no evil pollution humans?

In the case of some of the PETA and HSUS true-believers, yes. No joke.

7x57

SwissFluCase
02-06-2009, 10:36 PM
Isn't that the ultimate hippie goal (provided they have actual goals, not just something they feel at the moment)? The great mother Earth with no evil pollution humans?

Yep. All those guilty rich yuppies were once hippies, and now they feel dirty. Solution? Depopulate. Twisted logic, but that seems to describe it.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

7x57
02-06-2009, 10:42 PM
Actually, I heard a disturbingly convincing argument once that an awful lot of animal-rights hardcores are child abuse survivors who project their trauma onto animals. I suppose that means they identify their abuser(s) with humanity.

Ordinarily, I regard this sort of quasi-Freudian analysis as so much hogwash, but it is interesting how much that explains about some people. More the hardcore AR women in my experience, but that experience is very limited.

Play with it for a while and see if you can't find a lot of parallels.

7x57

nick
02-06-2009, 10:45 PM
I don't know that many hippies, the only ones I'd known before I met my girlfriend were potheads from my high school. But I'll ask her, she'd have an insight on the issue.

SwissFluCase
02-06-2009, 10:53 PM
I don't know that many hippies, the only ones I'd known before I met my girlfriend were potheads from my high school. But I'll ask her, she'd have an insight on the issue.

I know a bunch. I'm teaching the ones I know how to shoot at their own request. Pro gun hippies! Who would have ever thought. Yay!

They think *way* different. Their self identity is based in denying the self, and their status is based on who has the most hive like outlook. They honestly think of humanity as parasites on the planet, and not a valid part of the world.

I don't hunt, but I will send the letter. The best that any of us can do is stick up for one another, even if it is a facet of the firearms culture we don't participate in.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

nick
02-06-2009, 11:07 PM
I know a bunch. I'm teaching the ones I know how to shoot at their own request. Pro gun hippies! Who would have ever thought. Yay!

They think *way* different. Their self identity is based in denying the self, and their status is based on who has the most hive like outlook. They honestly think of humanity as parasites on the planet, and not a valid part of the world.

I don't hunt, but I will send the letter. The best that any of us can do is stick up for one another, even if it is a facet of the firearms culture we don't participate in.

Regards,


SwissFluCase


They're not true hippies then :) If they learn how to shoot guns for self-protection (I presume, they don't do it for hunting purposes), they're "dismissing the equally valuable life of an underprivileged person" who's most likely to attack them. Hippies and liberals aren't the same thing.

EDIT: The potheads in my high school weren't real hippies either, just a bunch of spoiled teenage brats trying to rebel against some thing or another.

SwissFluCase
02-06-2009, 11:15 PM
They're not true hippies then :) If they learn how to shoot guns for self-protection (I presume, they don't do it for hunting purposes), they're "dismissing the equally valuable life of an underprivileged person" who's most likely to attack them. Hippies and liberals aren't the same thing.

EDIT: The potheads in my high school weren't real hippies either, just a bunch of spoiled teenage brats trying to rebel against some thing or another.

I prefer to call them recovering citizens at that point. ;)

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Nodda Duma
02-07-2009, 8:59 PM
Hippie discussion aside...tagged for status update on the hearings.

-Jason

chris
02-08-2009, 8:07 AM
Like you didn't expect this?

not surprised one bit by it. once the camels nose is in the tent it's hard to get it out.

GuyW
02-09-2009, 12:25 PM
I've had (and have) my beefs with how our ambiguous and arbitrary game laws are enforced.

But what I've heard, is that the wardens and game biologists are the only pro-hunters in the Dept....the rest is infested with greenie econut, build-nothing-anywhere wackjobs....



I am soooooo sick and tired of this game warden bullshiz! Screw 'em. They are not real cops and they penalize the very people that pay their wages. DFG is a parking place for failed cops from other state agencies, or for those who are not smart enough to be real cops. I've personally seen their handiwork, and it suks. I for one, will not ever again pay the state of Kalifornia my hard-earned dollars to hunt and fish here. If we boycott these idiots, then sooner or later, they will get cut out of the Gov't dole. Imagine, especially right now, if they went one year with a 50% drop in income in hunting and fishing license fees, they'd be done. There are other states that welcome my money.

And no, I have never been cited, or accused of wrongdoing by DFG. In fact, I taught Hunter ed for them for 5 years.....go figure.

series8217
02-09-2009, 12:47 PM
The wardens are NOT the policymakers, and in general they don't seem to be in line with them either.

All of the wardens I have encountered (while spearfishing) have been very supportive of the hunting activity and take part in it themselves.

H Paul Payne
02-10-2009, 9:52 AM
Please keep-up the pressure on this important issue.

Don't be distracted when the F & G Commission contacts try to confuse and distract you. They don't want you to continue to contact them.

Please help us keep this issue off of the 2009 F & G Commission agenda.

Paul

mikehaas
02-10-2009, 10:24 AM
Please keep-up the pressure on this important issue.

Don't be distracted when the F & G Commission contacts try to confuse and distract you. They don't want you to continue to contact them.

Please help us keep this issue off of the 2009 F & G Commission agenda.

Paul
UPDATE: This morning, the Fish & Game Commission is sending out a canned response when you send them an email (either to their normal email addresses or by using our ONE-CLICK service). It says...

The public comment period regarding "method of take" and "lead ammunition" is now closed. Please see our website, www.fgc.ca.gov, for all open public comment periods involving the Fish and Game Commission and California Code of Regulations.

Thank you.

THIS IS A COMPLETE DODGE. There is no open comment period active at this time. "Open comment periods" only come into effect twhen an issue has been "agenda-ized" by them (put on the agenda for formal action.) There was an open comment period last year, when the implementation of AB 821, but the F & G Commission is now considering AGENDA-IZING EXPANSION OF THE BAN STATE-WIDE.

We are trying to prevent this EXPANSION from being agenda-ized, a completely separate issue.

Don't allow this canned email response to dissuade you from letting the Fish & Game know what you think. And while you're at it, ask them why they are sending out this message regarding a now-closed "open comment period" from a year ago.

radioburning
02-10-2009, 12:29 PM
I called this morning. They said there's no such action being sought towards expanding the ammo ban, and if there was, by law, it would have to be up on their website.

Just thought you guys would like to know their official statement on the issue at the moment.

H Paul Payne
02-11-2009, 9:10 PM
I called this morning. They said there's no such action being sought towards expanding the ammo ban, and if there was, by law, it would have to be up on their website.

Just thought you guys would like to know their official statement on the issue at the moment.


Please read message #46 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2017952&postcount=46) by Mike Haas (above) and continue to contact them. I assure you they are feeling the heat.

We will soon have more information to release regarding this critical issue.

Paul

steve_77
02-12-2009, 9:10 AM
bump

N6ATF
02-12-2009, 9:38 AM
Patience, young padawan.

GuyW
02-12-2009, 9:39 AM
Please read message #46 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2017952&postcount=46) by Mike Haas (above) and continue to contact them. I assure you they are feeling the heat.

We will soon have more information to release regarding this critical issue.

Paul

Shoot, tell 'em you want the current lead ban repealed.

bwiese
02-12-2009, 10:00 AM
Keep dialling, keep writing, keep faxing.

If you can do multiple methods, do it.

Be a pain - or at least a squeaky wheel.

H Paul Payne
02-12-2009, 10:11 PM
Please read message #46 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2017952&postcount=46) by Mike Haas (above) and continue to contact them. I assure you they are feeling the heat.

We will soon have more information to release regarding this critical issue.

Paul

I promised you more information. Here's a sample of what we have.......

<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/89tzMXKPWMk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/89tzMXKPWMk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>


After seeing this, don't let them tell you that they don't want to take the lead ammo ban statewide!

Paul

yellowfin
02-12-2009, 11:31 PM
It's amazing that they even entertain the charade of this having a thing to do with condors or that condors are even a remote priority over us, even if we mean even less than nothing to them. How long can they say the emperor has clothes?

Meplat
02-13-2009, 11:20 PM
What's with Sutton?

1BigPea
02-13-2009, 11:39 PM
Yikes. That's not good.

I guess there's so many lead bullets out there, Condors just can't help themselves. :confused:

My Part: I've been calling, leaving messages and faxing...I'll continue to do so.

somethin
02-13-2009, 11:59 PM
There are no agendas on that panel!:(

ljdouglas
02-14-2009, 8:33 AM
With all the Turner's bashing that goes on, I'd like to point out that Turners has sent out emails to their list on this issue with all the contact info and such..

Meplat
02-14-2009, 7:38 PM
How can we get rid of sutton? Lobby the governor? Does he appoint these bozos?

radioburning
02-14-2009, 7:58 PM
I'll call again on Monday.

Tanner68
02-14-2009, 8:08 PM
Thank you H Paul Payne for posting that video.

H Paul Payne
02-16-2009, 7:26 AM
Thank you H Paul Payne for posting that video.

Your welcome. We have a lot more coming soon. In fact, you can see a few more F & G Commission videos at News Briefs (http://www.calnra.com/newsbriefs/090213.htm), which is our NRA Members' Councils' version of the news - presented with a satirical edge.

With all the Turner's bashing that goes on, I'd like to point out that Turners has sent out emails to their list on this issue with all the contact info and such..

Yes they have. And a big THANK YOU to them for doing so. We all must stand together if we are to win in the end.

BTW, I have known Turner's Director of Store Operations (I hope I got the title correct) for many-many years and I think he is a great guy. And I will go on record stating that you won't find a more dedicated and true Second Amendment believer anywhere.

Note: If you go to the Turner's Outdoorsman Web Page (http://www.turners.com/), you will find a link to the alert (CAL-ERT) referenced above.

Paul

chris
02-16-2009, 1:29 PM
these guys are so F***** full of it. Mr. Kellog has it right there is not enough information on lead ammunition poisening.


they have an agenda and they will move forward regardless of what we do. i do not trust the DFG at all. they have lost any and all respect from me from now on.

Paul again thanks for the info update we need it.

i do not believe one word about "not getting out in front of the science" and here they are discussing expanding the lead ammo ban. what a bunch of crap from these people. thank goodness there are people that don't sit on their heads at these meetings.

yellowfin
02-17-2009, 10:34 PM
What kind of wine tastes best with roast condor?

vrand
02-17-2009, 10:35 PM
I don't see this as a winning argument.

The antis will just wave their hands and say no hunting until ammo that approximates SP hunting ammo is available that is accurate to a standard of 2" at 100 yds.

The best argument IMHO, is to hammer on a lack of factual basis that lead causes any harm to condors or anything but the shot animal. I think Regs _legally_ have to have a factual basis, as opposed to legislation (in which no facts have to be invoked).

.

:thumbsup:

7x57
02-17-2009, 10:35 PM
What kind of wine tastes best with roast condor?

It seems that condors go best with whine.

7x57

Swiss
02-28-2009, 1:06 PM
I wrote them and received a different reply than the canned response about a "close comment period". See below:

Contrary to warnings circulating the internet and making its ways into hunting newsletters and sports columns, the Fish and Game Commission is NOT considering a Statewide ban of lead ammunition in California. By law, the Commission must post all proposed changes to regulations that are being considered on its website at www.fgc.ca.gov. Simply click on new and proposed regulations at http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/new/2009/proposedregs09.asp. Also, the Commission's website allows any person to watch all Commission meetings, live, by clicking the "Slo-Span" link on our website, at any time during the meeting. And, all previous meetings and agendas are available at http://www.fgc.ca.gov/meetings/2009/2009mtgs.asp. For 2008 agendas and videos please click the link for 2008 Meetings at the top of the page.
>>>> 2/25/2009 9:25 PM >>>

Dear Fish & Game Commission Members,

I'm writing to you because I strongly oppose any proposed expansion on theban of lead ammunition in our state, and I am asking that you oppose such a ban as well.

There has been no scientifically collected data that specifically links the use of lead ammunition to lead found in California wildlife. Proceeding with even the consideration of a ban before hard science proves a causal relationship is needless, foolhardy, and smacks of political interference.

Furthermore, although there have already been discussions on the possibility of an expanded ban, there have been no efforts to review the impact on hunters and other firearms enthusiasts, or comments on how those effects might be mitigated. Have you, for example, considered the impact of a ban on those using ammunition for which there is no lead-free alternative? Do you have an understanding of the high cost, subpar performance, and limited availability of lead-free ammunition, and how exceedingly difficult it will be to continue shooting sports under such requirements?

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. Please do not do me the disservice of responding with a canned response about a closed comment period when this lead ban expansion has not yet even had an open comment period (see bulletin below).

Respectfully,

xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx

Cc:
Ms. Loni Hancock
Ms. Nancy Skinner
Mr. Mark DeSaulnier

7x57
02-28-2009, 4:39 PM
I wrote them and received a different reply than the canned response about a "close comment period". See below:

[I]Contrary to warnings circulating the internet and making its ways into hunting newsletters and sports columns, the Fish and Game Commission is NOT considering a Statewide ban of lead ammunition in California. By law, the Commission must post all proposed changes to regulations that are being considered on its website at www.fgc.ca.gov.

I got more or less the same orally by phone, and my reply was that I was aware that the discussion was informal and that by the time it became an agenda item it would already have momentum and should not even get to that stage.

Though I don't understand the politics of the commission, it seems reasonable to try to abort stupid regulation in the first trimester (as it were).

7x57