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View Full Version : I cant sell my guns without valid drivers license?


Spelunker
02-05-2009, 11:33 AM
I have been told by two different shops that I cant SELL my handguns without a valid drivers license. It just expired a few days ago on my birthday and havent gotten the new one sent to me yet. Is there anything else I can use such as my passport or my C&R or vehicle registration papers to be able to sell my guns to another calgunner?
I didn't see anything on the DOJ website that specifies this and a search here only seemed to talk about ID needed to buy a gun.:confused:

tombinghamthegreat
02-05-2009, 11:39 AM
You could just get an ID card.

tube_ee
02-05-2009, 11:53 AM
But I was at one today looking at a rifle that I'm thinking of buying, and there was a notice regarding this.

It seems that they are required by CA state law to run a background check on anyone selling a gun. If you come back unable to own said firearm, they are required to turn it over to the DOJ. They are prohibited by law from giving you your gun back.

So it would seem that, at least at an FFL-holding pawn shop, you have to have the same ID to sell a gun as you would to buy one.

--Shannon

gunsmith
02-05-2009, 11:55 AM
I feel ya man!, "just get an ID card" ... not really!
You can't "just get one" it takes weeks to get one, they mail it to you & take their time.
What might work is your passport/C&R and everything else PLUS receipt for new DL/ID

Turbinator
02-05-2009, 11:58 AM
Hey, I had an expired license and a bar wouldn't serve me alcohol... frustrating.

Turby

sorensen440
02-05-2009, 12:00 PM
Hey, I had an expired license and a bar wouldn't serve me alcohol... frustrating.

Turby
Well in fairness you may not have been old enough anymore :p

Spelunker
02-05-2009, 12:02 PM
I already have a new license coming in the mail since my license was clean I was able to renew it online. But with the cutbacks going on I dont know how much time it will take to get my new one. Thats why I was looking for some other options. Any ideas of where I can find the actual wording of the law?

kermit
02-05-2009, 12:07 PM
(c) (1) As used in this article, "clear evidence of his or her
identity and age" means either of the following:
(A) A valid California driver's license.
(B) A valid California identification card issued by the
Department of Motor Vehicles.
from
http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12071.html

Spelunker
02-05-2009, 12:27 PM
(c) (1) As used in this article, "clear evidence of his or her
identity and age" means either of the following:
(A) A valid California driver's license.
(B) A valid California identification card issued by the
Department of Motor Vehicles.
from
http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12071.html

According to this I'm screwed until I get my new license. But what about people that move into the state and decide to sell their handguns to a CA resident before the (30-60?) day registration time is up. They dont have a CA DL yet. How do they sell their guns? Do they just use their current out of state license? It should state somewhere in our laws what that policy is.

Thanks for the replies.

sorensen440
02-05-2009, 12:28 PM
According to this I'm screwed until I get my new license. But what about people that move into the state and decide to sell their handguns to a CA resident before the (30-60?) day registration time is up. They dont have a CA DL yet. How do they sell their guns? Do they just use their current out of state license? It should state somewhere in our laws what that policy is.

Thanks for the replies.
They don't

EOD Guy
02-06-2009, 6:42 AM
Hey, I had an expired license and a bar wouldn't serve me alcohol... frustrating.

Turby

That's because the ABC rules require a valid ID. An expired license is not considered valid ID.

laguns
02-06-2009, 7:40 AM
According to this I'm screwed until I get my new license.

Yep..

TheBundo
02-06-2009, 7:42 AM
I guess that's why nobody buys fake expired ID's from me :)

jmf_tracy
02-06-2009, 8:03 AM
use your passport. you do have one don't you?

ZirconJohn
02-06-2009, 8:09 AM
Well, being a former bartender... 'scuse me a former 'non-drinking' bartender, "sorry, your license is expired... I cannot serve you, in fact without 'valid' ID, you cannot even be in here!" - Oh the sob story:nopity: and argument that came with that, embarrass theyselves in front of they dang girlfriend... GAWD, I miss that!

No I don't!

expire
—expirer, n.
/ik spuyeur"/, v., expired, expiring.
v.i.
1. to come to an end; terminate.
2. to emit the last breath; die.
3. to breathe out.
v.t.
4. to breathe out (air) from the lungs.
5. Archaic. to emit.
[1375-1425; late ME < L ex(s) pirare to breathe out, come to an end = ex- EX-[1] + spirare to breathe]

So... I suppose 'expire' means 'dead' as in 'does not exist'.

Sorry, remnants of a sore subject with me. Bartending for a living, loved the girls and the money, hated the idiots!

However, definitely more diplomatic when it comes to DROS and expired ID. Had one about a month ago, customer didn't know his ID was expired. Then two (2) weeks later, he came back with a valid ID.

Spelunker
02-06-2009, 9:07 AM
use your passport. you do have one don't you?

I was told a passport wouldn't work because there is no address on it, although it does say "California, USA" so I really dont see the problem with that, and my passport is current.

EOD Guy
02-06-2009, 12:21 PM
I was told a passport wouldn't work because there is no address on it, although it does say "California, USA" so I really dont see the problem with that, and my passport is current.


California, USA is where you were born, not necessarily where you live now.

gunsmith
02-07-2009, 3:42 PM
According to this I'm screwed until I get my new license. But what about people that move into the state and decide to sell their handguns to a CA resident before the (30-60?) day registration time is up. They dont have a CA DL yet. How do they sell their guns? Do they just use their current out of state license? It should state somewhere in our laws what that policy is.

Thanks for the replies.

I couldn't, had to wait for the DL!

thedrickel
02-07-2009, 4:03 PM
I hate the "expired license is no longer sufficient ID" BS . . . it's expired as a driver's license! It's not expired as a f'in form of ID! When I got in a bike accident and I was lying on the side of the road . . . what did the cops use to ID me? My EXPIRED DL that I carry in the saddle bag on my bike!

Some Guy
02-07-2009, 4:16 PM
I have an ID and a license, the ID is good for much longer, I keep them in 2 different places in case i lose 1

artherd
02-07-2009, 4:40 PM
I hate the "expired license is no longer sufficient ID" BS . . . it's expired as a driver's license! It's not expired as a f'in form of ID!

Exactly. The over-strict interpretation defies simple logic.

FortCourageArmory
02-07-2009, 7:04 PM
Exactly. The over-strict interpretation defies simple logic.
Explain that to the "friendly" DOJ man that cites me for using an expired ID when selling a gun to one of you. You can call it over strict interpretation or even asinine, but you all don't have sway over my means of making a living. So, I play by the rules of those that do. It may not be logical but it makes sense....right?

cbn620
02-07-2009, 7:39 PM
My ID card arrived in the mail in a matter of days. I guess it depends on the DMV you're going with. Got mine through the one in Reedley, CA I think it was. Didn't stand in line long because I made an appointment and arrived early.

Cool thing is, it takes a lot longer for regular ID to expire and it's a great backup. I got mine before I got my DL as a "for the time being" sort of thing but still keep it and use it from time to time.

I think it's cheaper too. I don't drive much anyways.

CHS
02-08-2009, 9:36 AM
You may be able to convince the FFL to just add your guns that you're selling to his inventory. Then it would no longer be a PPT. It would be a sale between your buyer and the FFL.

artherd
02-08-2009, 11:44 AM
Explain that to the "friendly" DOJ man that cites me for using an expired ID when selling a gun to one of you. You can call it over strict interpretation or even asinine, but you all don't have sway over my means of making a living. So, I play by the rules of those that do.

Yes, it's codified, and it is this codified interpretation I am challenging - not yours.

It may not be logical but it makes sense....right?

Heh!

383green
02-08-2009, 12:29 PM
I ran into a similar situation when I got my commercial driver's license. I had to surrender my current Class C license card upon passing the drive test, but was just given a flimsy paper temporary Class A license in return. As I recall, it took many weeks for my new DL card to arrive in the mail, and I was unable to buy any guns during that period. :(

CHS
02-08-2009, 1:12 PM
Can someone tell me exactly why an ID expires in the first place? There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for that.

A "license" is one thing. But an ID should never expire. Ever.

383green
02-08-2009, 1:39 PM
Can someone tell me exactly why an ID expires in the first place? There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for that.

A "license" is one thing. But an ID should never expire. Ever.

I can imagine various reasons for a government to include expiration dates:

1) Forces people to renew their ID, thus providing an opportunity for the government to update the photo. However, my recently-renewed DL has the same digital photo as my previous one from four years ago (or maybe even eight years ago; I don't remember the last time I stood in front of the DMV camera), and still states my weight from when I first got my CA DL back in college... let's just say that there has been some inflation since then! :p.

2) Forces people to keep their papers in order, thus both conditioning them to submit to governmental bureaucracy and justifying the continued existence and growth of that bureaucracy.

3) ID is often used for purposes other than simple identification, such as proof of permission to drive a vehicle, proof of residence, etc. Thus, license expiration reduces the window of time that the ID might be contain inaccurate information. However, this doesn't work out so well in practice. When I renewed my license recently, despite my providing DMV with both my new residence address and my (different) mailing address, they put the mailing address on the license card. And as I mentioned before, the weight number is dramatically inaccurate. As an aside, whenever I fill out forms requiring height/weight/etc., I use the values printed on my DL. After all, those are the official values. :rolleyes:

4) It provides more opportunities for the government to relieve people of the products of their labor, in the form of renewal fees.

In my humble opinion, having an expiration date on a simple ID is silly and annoying at best. It's equally absurd for an expired DL to stop being valid for simple identification purposes once it expires.

For that matter, I think that time-based expiration of a driver's license could be argued to be unnecessary. Revoke the license if something changes such that the bearer can no longer be allowed to drive. Even when a person bears a DL that has not yet expired, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily valid; after all, it could have been suspended or revoked, but not confiscated.

E Pluribus Unum
02-08-2009, 3:50 PM
I see this as possibly attackable by the Heller ruling/Nordyke incorporation cases.

Nothing REQUIRES every legal resident of California to get an ID card. Someone who has no driver's license and has no ID card still has a constitutional right to buy/sell firearms. Under current law, there is a class of civilian that is denied a constitutional right.

Spelunker
02-08-2009, 8:29 PM
I see this as possibly attackable by the Heller ruling/Nordyke incorporation cases.

Nothing REQUIRES every legal resident of California to get an ID card. Someone who has no driver's license and has no ID card still has a constitutional right to buy/sell firearms. Under current law, there is a class of civilian that is denied a constitutional right.

If a person has no ID then I see it as easier for a person to try to sell a stolen firearm and have fewer repercussions. This could only be bad for the buyer then. I think that an expired license should still be taken as acceptable though.

fairfaxjim
02-08-2009, 10:17 PM
Can someone tell me exactly why an ID expires in the first place? There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for that.

A "license" is one thing. But an ID should never expire. Ever.

Didn't you know, people become someone else all the time. We can't have the running around with the wrong ID. :D

Wait until the Federal Real ID rules all are fully implemented - some state's drivers licenses and ID cards may not be valid for Federal purposes - at least for access to federal facilities, airports, etc.

ZirconJohn
02-08-2009, 10:56 PM
At the local Co-Op Food Store I'm picking some choice oranges last summer and walked up next to me, a smelly, rancid B.O. hippy... NO Patchouli Oil thank God, but I would have preferred Patchouli to this rank-stank!

I just plain and simple could not contain myself... I said to the hippie "dude, you smell" I continued... I said "if you have the balls to go out in public and smell like that, I have the balls to tell you". I just stood there looking at him, as he stood there looking at me... I really think he was shocked, I hope he was in shock, but I really could not tell.

He said "sorry" and just looked at me as he brushed the long hair from his face with his hand.

So now I say this 'if you have the balls to present me an expired ID, I have the balls to simply hand it back to you and say "ACCESS DENIED!" Additionally, I have absolutely NO remorse as I am thoroughly stone-faced, and matter of fact.

Lastly, yes... yes ID's are good for life, but'cha gots'ta renew them son... be a man!

Hand me an expired ID, or CDL... hmmph! Please do not attempt to insult me, when doing such an act only insults yourself.

That's why it's called a renewal, this is plain english here... American.

E Pluribus Unum
02-09-2009, 12:25 PM
So now I say this 'if you have the balls to present me an expired ID, I have the balls to simply hand it back to you and say "ACCESS DENIED!" Additionally, I have absolutely NO remorse as I am thoroughly stone-faced, and matter of fact.

Lastly, yes... yes ID's are good for life, but'cha gots'ta renew them son... be a man!

Hand me an expired ID, or CDL... hmmph! Please do not attempt to insult me, when doing such an act only insults yourself.

That's why it's called a renewal, this is plain english here... American.

Why should we even have to have an ID? We pay sales tax when we buy things, no ID is needed there. I should be free to enter lawful commerce without having a government issued ID card.

If a person has no ID then I see it as easier for a person to try to sell a stolen firearm and have fewer repercussions. This could only be bad for the buyer then. I think that an expired license should still be taken as acceptable though.

Then why not require an ID for every purchase? Guns make up only a very small percentage of the stolen merchandise peddled in this country. No one has a constitutional right to possess an orange, or to possess a car. Once something is established as a constitutional right, the government has no right deprive that right with an optional permit. It must be affordable, and automatic meaning they cannot discriminate who gets the permit. (Like a permit to hold a demonstration rally at the local park).

Case in point:

Under current laws, it is basically impossible to live off of the lands in this country. Because of hunting and "conservation" laws, there are only certain times of the year that game can be taken. This forces people to enter the "system". They must purchase food, meaning they must get a job, earn money, pay taxes, et cetera.

What about someone who cannot or does not want to work but does not qualify for public assistance for whatever reason? If I got tired of the system and wanted to live on public land, hunt and fish for food, and be self sufficient living in the elements in order not to be a burden to society, I should be allowed to do it. In that situation, I still have the freedom of speach, the freedom of religion, the freedom of assembly, and the freedom to purchase, possess, and use firearms. If I want to barder animal firs and other items for my guns, I should be able to without submitting a birth certificate and obtaining a california ID. At the very least, if I do this once in my life and keep that ID, it should not expire until my death. Why should I have to pay the state ANOTHER $21 to issue me a new ID card every 4-6 years?