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MudCamper
02-04-2009, 4:22 PM
There are so many unfounded rumor threads starting that I thought I'd point out the following. You can go right to the White House website and see exactly what the administration is actually doing:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/

It's really quite nice, especially the "Briefing Room" links, which include:

The Blog (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/)
Weekly Video Addresses (http://www.whitehouse.gov/weekly_address/)
Press Briefings (http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/PressBriefings/)
Official Statements (http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/OfficialStatements/)
Press Releases (http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/PressReleases/)
Presidential Actions (http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/PresidentialActions/)
Nominations and Appointments (http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/nominations_and_appointments/)

So before spreading the next internet rumor about the next Obama gun confiscation program, try verifying it first.

Edit to add: It was not my intent to provoke any controversy or confrontation when I started this thread...

hawk1
02-04-2009, 4:26 PM
But have you heard about HR45?....:hide:



:D

ZRX61
02-04-2009, 4:59 PM
He's looking shell-shocked the past 2 or 3 days. I think he's finally realising just WTF he has got himself into & is more than a bit overwhelmed...

lawaia
02-04-2009, 5:20 PM
He's looking shell-shocked the past 2 or 3 days. I think he's finally realising just WTF he has got himself into & is more than a bit overwhelmed...

I noticed this also, and I must say it pleases me greatly!:D

Gator Monroe
02-04-2009, 5:36 PM
He is like Frank (From Scarface) when Tony came back from Coca Bomba Columbia WITH THE 10 MILLION DOLLAR DEAL and frank only authorized a 4 million dollar deal , so who in his cabinet is going to tell him "You got to think big" to calm his fears...

CitaDeL
02-04-2009, 6:02 PM
He's looking shell-shocked the past 2 or 3 days. I think he's finally realising just WTF he has got himself into & is more than a bit overwhelmed...

Agreed. The aire of self-assuredness he projected during the campaign has been replaced with the deer in headlights look.

movie zombie
02-04-2009, 6:03 PM
HR 45 is a house bill introduced by a representative: why would there be info at the presidential website?

mz

Cypren
02-04-2009, 6:05 PM
I noticed this also, and I must say it pleases me greatly!:D

It occurs to me that this is somewhat like being pleased that your bus driver is frozen in shock while you're riding on the highway, just because you've never liked the guy and didn't want to ride his bus. He's still the one with his hands on the wheel and we're all coming along for the ride.

I did not vote for the man and I would be happy to see him and all of his ilk leave politics and never return. But as long as he's directing the future of our country, I will be the last one to wish him panicked failure at his job.

Deamer
02-04-2009, 6:06 PM
He's looking shell-shocked the past 2 or 3 days. I think he's finally realising just WTF he has got himself into & is more than a bit overwhelmed...

I saw this comment on a news story and liked it.

"Somewhere in Texas a President is laughing his A** off!"

yellowfin
02-04-2009, 6:13 PM
It occurs to me that this is somewhat like being pleased that your bus driver is frozen in shock while you're riding on the highway, just because you've never liked the guy and didn't want to ride his bus. He's still the one with his hands on the wheel and we're all coming along for the ride.

I did not vote for the man and I would be happy to see him and all of his ilk leave politics and never return. But as long as he's directing the future of our country, I will be the last one to wish him panicked failure at his job. I for one would much rather he be panicked and thereby paralyzed so he can do less harm to the country. The bus driver can't run you off a cliff if he's stuck in park. I for one want them to do as close to nothing as possible.

SJgunguy24
02-04-2009, 6:15 PM
I guess 4 years as a "junior Senetor" does NOT prepare one to lead a nation.....No matter how much "Hope" or "Change" one speaks of, thats not the job for someone lacking experiance in being a strong leader.

KWA-S
02-04-2009, 6:19 PM
For a sec I thought this was another sky is falling HR45 thread.

If I see that bill one more time...:censored:
But it looks like the mods are good enough at cleaning that junk up; thanks mods!

tankerman
02-04-2009, 7:00 PM
But have you heard about HR45?....:hide::DDon't bother Mud Camper with facts.

try verifying it first.
You do know that most legislation starts in congress right?
You're welcome to "verify it first" if you need to.

hawk1
02-04-2009, 7:19 PM
HR 45 is a house bill introduced by a representative: why would there be info at the presidential website?

mz

It was meant as a joke.

Hence the little :D underneath.

OrovilleTim
02-04-2009, 7:23 PM
Agreed. The aire of self-assuredness he projected during the campaign has been replaced with the deer in headlights look.

Yep... he's floundering far worse than I imagined he could. It's like those videos you see of the BMXers where they go to get a good start right off the gate, and end up sprawled in the dirt in an epic FAIL! :clown:

MudCamper
02-04-2009, 7:26 PM
Don't bother Mud Camper with facts.


You do know that most legislation starts in congress right?
You're welcome to "verify it first" if you need to.

Yes, but most of the chicken little threads start off with, "Obama has already started banning guns!"

This thread has turned out to be sad, and ironic.

Gator Monroe
02-04-2009, 7:27 PM
End of summer !:chris:

sfpcservice
02-04-2009, 7:36 PM
I heard Obama is working on a "Laser Beam" at area 51 (next to area 52) which he inteds to attach to trained western fence lizards. The lizards will then come into your home and melt your guns with their attached "laser beams". The only snag is that this lizards can't operate on cold days.

MudCamper
02-04-2009, 7:39 PM
Flame me if you want, but I like what the President is doing, like this, on day 2:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Ensuring_Lawful_Interrogations/

End torture. Follow the Army field manual and the Geneva Convention.

bassgruvn
02-04-2009, 7:42 PM
He's looking shell-shocked the past 2 or 3 days. I think he's finally realising just WTF he has got himself into & is more than a bit overwhelmed...

LOL I was thinking the same thing.

Lethal_addict
02-04-2009, 8:00 PM
Check this SH#$ out... Bye bye guns!

http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/urban_policy/

Crime and Law Enforcement
Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

MudCamper
02-04-2009, 8:16 PM
Check this SH#$ out... Bye bye guns!

http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/urban_policy/

Crime and Law Enforcement
Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

And you haven't seen the hundred other threads that say that this was cut-and-paste from the campaign website and is old news?

fusionstar
02-04-2009, 8:41 PM
Agreed. The aire of self-assuredness he projected during the campaign has been replaced with the deer in headlights look.

The CIA just handed him the documents about Roswell and area-51

:TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH:

sugi942
02-04-2009, 9:14 PM
The CIA just handed him the documents about Roswell and area-51

:TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH:

Wait, are you guys talking about the Alan Parsons Project?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Duj2oZIC8U

Cru Jones
02-04-2009, 9:22 PM
Unfortunately I've seen nothing substantial from Barry O. but public grandstanding. "I'M GONNA CLOSE GITMO" (once I figure out where to put everyone). "I'M GONNA CAP EXECUTIVE SALARIES FOR COMPANIES TAKING BAILOUT $$$" (except it won't put another dime in yours or my pocket). "I'M GONNA PASS A STIMULUS PACKAGE TO SAVE THE COUNTRY" (full of money for liberal pet projects). So far I'm very unimpressed with hope and change.

Zebra
02-04-2009, 9:34 PM
'k
since we do the funnies:

http://blog.indecision2008.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/madcover.jpg

How's about waiting until something significant actually happens?

Frank

MudCamper
02-04-2009, 9:45 PM
Tarn, wow, I didn't know the bar could be set so low.

This thread has once again demonstrated two idioms:

Gun owners are their own worst enemies.

And with friends like these who needs enemies.

EDIT: FYI my response here was to posts that have now been deleted by mods...

lioneaglegriffin
02-04-2009, 11:23 PM
zebra i'll take your mad and raise you a onion.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/P/U/2/onion-obama-cover.jpg

WASHINGTON—African-American man Barack Obama, 47, was given the least-desirable job in the entire country Tuesday when he was elected president of the United States of America. In his new high-stress, low-reward position, Obama will be charged with such tasks as completely overhauling the nation's broken-down economy, repairing the crumbling infrastructure, and generally having to please more than 300 million Americans and cater to their every whim on a daily basis. As part of his duties, the black man will have to spend four to eight years cleaning up the messes other people left behind. The job comes with such intense scrutiny and so certain a guarantee of failure that only one other person even bothered applying for it. Said scholar and activist Mark L. Denton, "It just goes to show you that, in this country, a black man still can't catch a break."

DDT
02-04-2009, 11:43 PM
Tarn, wow, I didn't know the bar could be set so low.

This thread has once again demonstrated two idioms:

Gun owners are their own worst enemies.

And with friends like these who needs enemies.

Surely one who started this thread in this environment cannot be surprised at what it has become. If you were trying to make a point about how it was inevitable that it would come to this, thank you Capt. Obvious.

hawk1
02-05-2009, 7:35 AM
Flame me if you want, but I like what the President is doing, like this, on day 2:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Ensuring_Lawful_Interrogations/

End torture. Follow the Army field manual and the Geneva Convention.



...

And with friends like these who needs enemies.


I agree.

This is all I got out of this thread.

MudCamper = friend and supporter of Obama policies not the 2nd admendment...


nuff said...:cool:

56Chevy
02-05-2009, 7:36 AM
But have you heard about HR45?....:hide:



:D
You should start a new thread about it.

Biff...
02-05-2009, 8:07 AM
Tarn, wow, I didn't know the bar could be set so low.

This thread has once again demonstrated two idioms:

Gun owners are their own worst enemies.

And with friends like these who needs enemies.


You sound shock, what did you expect, that your attempt at mocking us would turn the tide- and everybody would become a supporter of the President.

MudCamper
02-05-2009, 9:07 AM
You sound shock, what did you expect, that your attempt at mocking us would turn the tide- and everybody would become a supporter of the President.

I'd hoped, pointlessly I now see, to open some eyes. More importatnly I also think there needs to be at least one voice on this forum that isn't constantly bashing Democrats, so that when they, and the 64% of Americans that support Obama, visit this site they see that not all gunnies are frothing-at-the-mouth knuckle-dragging close-minded hicks.

MudCamper = friend and supporter of Obama policies not the 2nd admendment...

Show me one speck of proof for your claim that I don't support the 2A.

I am a life member of the NRA.
I am a life member of the CRPA.
I have donated over a thousand dollars to the CGF.
I am an Open Carry Activist.
I published OC and OLL documents.
I have introduced dozens of new people personally to shooting.
I write our representatives whenever necessary supporting gun rights.

What have you done? Turn a lot of people off and drive a lot of potential converts away. When you demonize Democrats and Obama supporters so vehemently, you just hurt our cause.

I'll post this again, probably to deaf ears:

http://www.paul.net/guns/images/JoinorDie400.png

oddball
02-05-2009, 9:40 AM
It is far easier to vote in a pro 2nd Amendment Republican candidate than to convert liberal Democrats (politicians and citizens) to the correct meaning and acceptance of the 2A.

The latter is simply impossible, IMHO.

MudCamper
02-05-2009, 9:45 AM
It is far easier to vote in a pro 2nd Amendment Republican candidate than to convert liberal Democrats (politicians and citizens) to the correct meaning and acceptance of the 2A.

The latter is simply impossible, IMHO.

You are flat out wrong. I have converted many Democrats to pro-2A. And to just give up on greater than half of all Americans is a losing strategy in the long term.

tmuller
02-05-2009, 10:25 AM
I know many pro-2A Dems...oh yeah they're wrong because their party affiliation is not based solely on 2A issues. Personally I am an independent minded individual and vote for the person not the party, no wonder I usually vote third party.

Mudcamper is right. Until many Republican gun rights activists can stop equating ALL Dems as anti's then we are stuck.

GrayWolf09
02-05-2009, 10:50 AM
One of the trends in politics today is the growing number of independents (no party affiliation). In many areas neither the Democrats nor the Republicans have a majority. This can work to our (pro 2A rights) advantage if we are able to transcend narrow party affiliations and focus on our issues. But if we keep the old mantra of Republicans are pro 2A and Democrats anti 2A we will surely lose.

Zebra
02-05-2009, 11:10 AM
One of the trends in politics today is the growing number of independents (no party affiliation). In many areas neither the Democrats nor the Republicans have a majority. This can work to our (pro 2A rights) advantage if we are able to transcend narrow party affiliations and focus on our issues. But if we keep the old mantra of Republicans are pro 2A and Democrats anti 2A we will surely lose.

Amen.

rayra
02-05-2009, 11:19 AM
The OP's post is nonsense. It both deliberately mischaracterizes and tries to diminish via scorn the very real concerns about the anti-gun marxists now holding the top leadership positions in out government and the near-total lack of any legal / procedural opposition to potential and already-proposed bans.

It also deliberately ignores the deliberate pattern of gun control in this nation, where major infringements are passed on waves of hysteria deliberately inflated by democrats. Time and again the memes of 'blood in the streets' - what's basically called 'waving the bloody shirt' in politics - is used to justify all sorts of transgressions on our gun rights.
The most recent egregious example of this was teh behaviour of Carolyn McCarthy, (D)umbass Long Island, a long time anti-gun psycho, who was ready and waiting to attempt to capitalize on the SLC mall shooting and Philly office shooting that happened about 14mos ago. Less than 14hrs later her pre-prepared sweeping ban legislation was on the floor. The only difference was that then the 110th Congress while Democrat led didn't have the majorities they have NOW.
Just as with the '68 GCA, with our 89 AWB, the Federal AWB, and every other pos ban bill proposed in the wake of emotion-generating violence by criminals, the next major ban will be rushed thru on the next 'wave of blood'.

-

And then on top of all this, the OP perpetrates a deliberate fraud by pretending legislation begins on the President's website. Patently false. Policy goals are there.

This 111th Congress and the President have already repeatedly acted swiftly to propose and bull through all sorts of hamstringing / socialist legislation and sign it into law before any public outcry can prevent it.

The gun ban, the permanent AWB, when it comes, will come swiftly, in the dead of night (like the 'Land Reform' BS that was jammed thru on a weekend two weeks ago, closing millions of acres to ANY use other than by hikers / birdwatchers) and just like the 1994 AWB, it will be passed by both houses, zip thru conference committee and reconfirmation and be signed into law by the President AND TAKE IMMEDIATE EFFECT, all on the very same day.
There will be no time allowed for an old school NRA drumbeat campaign. And the bailout scams have already demonstrated this Congress doesn't give a damn about their phones ringing off the hook in protest.

And the pollyannas who keep posting this kind of 'nothing to worry' about topic will pay no price whatsoever for lulling people into not taking sufficient action beforehand to secure armaments.

Gator Monroe
02-05-2009, 11:22 AM
Tarn, wow, I didn't know the bar could be set so low.

This thread has once again demonstrated two idioms:

Gun owners are their own worst enemies.

And with friends like these who needs enemies.

Urban So Cal & Bay Area Liberal Gun owners are their own worst enemies (Leave the rest of us outta your percieved ideas)

Kestryll
02-05-2009, 11:26 AM
This thread has once again demonstrated two idioms:
Gun owners are their own worst enemies.
And with friends like these who needs enemies.
And what do you base those idioms on?
The fact that many here do not agree with you?
That your views are not predominantly held ones?
We're all enemies because we don't see things as you do?

Interesting...

I'd hoped, pointlessly I now see, to open some eyes.
You hoped people would agree with you and are not happy that they haven't.

More importatnly I also think there needs to be at least one voice on this forum that isn't constantly bashing Democrats, so that when they, and the 64% of Americans that support Obama, visit this site they see that not all gunnies are frothing-at-the-mouth knuckle-dragging close-minded hicks.
Nice to know how you view the membership here, nice open mind to other views there...



Show me one speck of proof for your claim that I don't support the 2A.

I am a life member of the NRA.
I am a life member of the CRPA.
I have donated over a thousand dollars to the CGF.
I am an Open Carry Activist.
I published OC and OLL documents.
I have introduced dozens of new people personally to shooting.
I write our representatives whenever necessary supporting gun rights.
In this we agree, very few here deserve to be attacked on their support of the 2nd Amendment. It's uncalled for and no matter the differing views we may have on some issues I've seen your efforts in this cause.
hawk1 your claim is not only uncalled for it is incorrect.

Kestryll
02-05-2009, 11:27 AM
Notice the missing posts?
Anyone else want to play cute games with cheap shots and personal comments?

MudCamper
02-05-2009, 11:49 AM
And what do you base those idioms on?
The fact that many here do not agree with you?
That your views are not predominantly held ones?
We're all enemies because we don't see things as you do?

Interesting...

Kestryll, we have esablished in past discussions that you and I are nearly ideological opposites (with the exception of the 2A), but no, that does not make us enemies. Those that post things like pictures of piles of **** on a plate and pictures of Obama with a gun to his head are IMO the enemies to our cause.

Gator Monroe
02-05-2009, 11:50 AM
Kestryll, we have esablished in past discussions that you and I are nearly ideological opposites (with the exception of the 2A), but no, that does not make us enemies. Those that post things like pictures of piles of **** on a plate and pictures of Obama with a gun to his head are IMO the enemies to our cause.

Words hurt more than Pics at times !

Gator Monroe
02-05-2009, 11:52 AM
Kestryll, we have esablished in past discussions that you and I are nearly ideological opposites (with the exception of the 2A), but no, that does not make us enemies. Those that post things like pictures of piles of **** on a plate and pictures of Obama with a gun to his head are IMO the enemies to our cause.

It's not "Our Cause" WHEN YEAR AFTER YEAR posters here (Dem/Lib Firearms owners vote in Anti-'s due to their "Other Issues" ...

MudCamper
02-05-2009, 12:04 PM
Words hurt more than Pics at times !

Words and pics are the same IMO, forms of expression of ideas or intent.

It's not "Our Cause" WHEN YEAR AFTER YEAR posters here (Dem/Lib Firearms owners vote in Anti-'s due to their "Other Issues" ...

"Our Cause" is the protection and advancement of gun rights. It is most probably the only thing I share with you other than disdain.

odysseus
02-05-2009, 12:10 PM
MudCamper = friend and supporter of Obama policies not the 2nd admendment...

You are simply WRONG on that.

.

Gator Monroe
02-05-2009, 12:11 PM
Words and pics are the same IMO, forms of expression of ideas or intent.



"Our Cause" is the protection and advancement of gun rights. It is most probably the only thing I share with you other than disdain.

You do not share my love for America , Motorcycles, Tools,Dogs,Boats, History,Talk Radio, The NFL & Sports,Rock & Roll & various other forms of Music (Including Ambient), Milsurp, Snow,Travel, Spicy Korean food & Waffle House, Swarthy Iranian Jewish women with those fine little hairs on their love demples of their lower backs, Cats, Hiking in unfamilure areas, ...

Gator Monroe
02-05-2009, 12:16 PM
And CG also ...:thumbsup:

Tony Sopranno
02-05-2009, 1:08 PM
It occurs to me that this is somewhat like being pleased that your bus driver is frozen in shock while you're riding on the highway, just because you've never liked the guy and didn't want to ride his bus. He's still the one with his hands on the wheel and we're all coming along for the ride.

I did not vote for the man and I would be happy to see him and all of his ilk leave politics and never return. But as long as he's directing the future of our country, I will be the last one to wish him panicked failure at his job.I agree, very strongly... And I did not vote for him either. I think he inherited a mess of gigantic proportions from Dubya and company. While Bush Jr. got a surplus in the budget this poor guy gets only the shards of a broken piggy bank. To wish him complete and total failure at this point (how long now in weeks) is pretty self-defeating all around. It reminds me of vultures in old western movies circling overhead as some poor half-dead SOB is trying to crawl out of the Mohave Desert. Frankly, it kind of bores me.

The latest rumors of anti-gun legislation are pretty pathetic too. That one about the "ammunition accountability act" was real hoot with a capital H. I guess I'm a fool for expecting more from people who claim to be sworn to defend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, physically if required.

I have written to Dianne Feinstein citing her over-emotional stand on gun control issues, and I've told her I would not vote for her under any circumstances. But this "let's watch him flounder" attitude is just as bad as Feinstein's whiny stop-everything-that-shoots perspective. Heck I gave Bush Jr. "the decider" more of a chance than most here are giving Obama. And I didn't vote for Bush Jr. either. I realize now I'm more fair-minded than I realize about politics, maybe to my own deficit. Maybe the "deer in the headlights" look some are seeing in Obama's face is all about the dire situation we are in -- really.

FTR: I stand for the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, but I can't and I won't stand with Israel. Nor will I stand with people avowed to see this country fail because they don't like the guy who was elected to run it. We are supposed all to be bigger than that. We should at least try to stand behind this guy for a year or so. It's lunacy not to if our situation is as dire as I suspect it might be.

Tony Sopranno
02-05-2009, 1:22 PM
Kestryll, we have esablished in past discussions that you and I are nearly ideological opposites (with the exception of the 2A), but no, that does not make us enemies. Those that post things like pictures of piles of **** on a plate and pictures of Obama with a gun to his head are IMO the enemies to our cause.I agree... why those pics were allowed to stand surprises me greatly. They were funny... but they seemed a tad out of place in a serious discourse. Some have gotten kicked over the goal posts for less.

Gator Monroe
02-05-2009, 1:24 PM
nOW SOMEONE BRINGS IN iSRAEL & TEH jOOOOOOS ...:sleeping:

MudCamper
02-05-2009, 2:02 PM
Perhaps we're heading toward an early encounter with Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law).

lioneaglegriffin
02-05-2009, 2:56 PM
i think what a lot of republicans on this forum need to face is that the party has lost some of its mojo and has strayed away from their principles. it will take some time to gain back the trust. If your lucky the Dems will fall flat on their faces, and the party can be revived somewhat. if the Dems are remotely successful (by their definition not yours of course) thats another nail that will keep the republican party dormant for possibly a generation.

Biff...
02-05-2009, 3:00 PM
i think what a lot of republicans on this forum need to face is that the party has lost some of its mojo and has strayed away from their principles. it will take some time to gain back the trust. If your lucky the Dems will fall flat on their faces, and the party can be revived somewhat. if the Dems are remotely successful (by their definition not yours of course) thats another nail that will keep the republican party dormant for possibly a generation.


At this point I don't even care about the Republicans. I'm so tired of both parties, that I'm moving over to the Ron Paul crowd. Now where did I leave that ron paul sticker. :D

lioneaglegriffin
02-05-2009, 3:10 PM
At this point I don't even care about the Republicans. I'm so tired of both parties, that I'm moving over to the Ron Paul crowd. Now where did I leave that ron paul sticker. :D

maybe Libertarians can get mainstream it would be nice. or rise from the ashes of the republican party, either them or the independent party would rise up.

MudCamper
02-05-2009, 3:24 PM
maybe Libertarians can get mainstream it would be nice. or rise from the ashes of the republican party, either them or the independent party would rise up.

The Libertarian Party (http://www.lp.org/platform) and the American Independent Party (http://www.aipca.org/platform.html) are socially polar opposites of each other...

sfpcservice
02-05-2009, 3:57 PM
At this point I don't even care about the Republicans. I'm so tired of both parties, that I'm moving over to the Ron Paul crowd. Now where did I leave that ron paul sticker. :D

Myabe you can join up with me, I think I'm the only registered Federalist in the state.....

hawk81
02-05-2009, 4:03 PM
I hope Obama fails miserably. This country needs a revolution.

Tony Sopranno
02-05-2009, 4:12 PM
I know many pro-2A Dems...oh yeah they're wrong because their party affiliation is not based solely on 2A issues. Personally I am an independent minded individual and vote for the person not the party, no wonder I usually vote third party.

Mudcamper is right. Until many Republican gun rights activists can stop equating ALL Dems as anti's then we are stuck.Well put...

Tony Sopranno
02-05-2009, 4:38 PM
At this point I don't even care about the Republicans. I'm so tired of both parties, that I'm moving over to the Ron Paul crowd. Now where did I leave that ron paul sticker. :DI voted for Ron Paul for exactly that reason -- sick of both major parties. I'm proud of it too.

Paul got .1% of the California vote, mainly because Ms. Secretary of State Bowden wouldn't give him a spot on the ballot, and she only cleared him as a 'write-in' something like two weeks before the election.

I doubt Obama will succeed because in my view he's an empty suit. But that, by no means, means that I want him to fail. The country can't afford it, not after the eight years of Bush-ites, FEMA appointees doing a "heck of a job," and the Pearl/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Krystal neo-con toadies bringing on another unnecessary war.

I'd much rather see Ron Paul in office, but that's not who we have. So I say back up the guy who won.

lioneaglegriffin
02-05-2009, 5:13 PM
The Libertarian Party (http://www.lp.org/platform) and the American Independent Party (http://www.aipca.org/platform.html) are socially polar opposites of each other...

maybe a three party system. i said indepenent party because repubs and dems are joining.

lioneaglegriffin
02-05-2009, 5:17 PM
AIP:The Individual and Common Defense
We assert the absolute, concurrent Second Amendment guaranteed individual right to self defense against impositions by other citizens or our government, coupled with a strong common defense, a common defense which requires a national sovereignty not damaged by imprudent or un-Constitutional treaties

LP:Self-Defense

The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the right to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. We oppose all laws at any level of government requiring registration of, or restricting, the ownership, manufacture, or transfer or sale of firearms or ammunition.

which would you pick!

tmuller
02-06-2009, 7:29 AM
We oppose all laws at any level of government requiring registration of, or restricting, the ownership, manufacture, or transfer or sale of firearms or ammunition.

I sure like this...and agree with the Libs in most other ways as well.

Alaric
02-06-2009, 9:51 AM
Seeing politics in terms of Republican vs. Democrat is simply two-dimensional. The world is far more complex than that and requires more critical thinking about the issues and consideration of other alternatives than any two-party system can possibly offer.

Demonizing Obama and wishing him failure is a myopic, partisan, and unreasonable position to take considering the current state of the nation. While you may not agree with his positions and ideology, if you were a true patriot you would want to see him succeed - for the sake of this country. If the two sides can't or won't come together to fix the current crises, the people of this country will hold both of them accountable, one way or another. It is against the anvil of great national crises that the hammer of public opinion smashes the existing political paradigms and new paradigms are forged. Partisan politics can not stand.

Personally I will never again vote either Republican or Democrat. As one insightful board member alludes to in his sig line, the Republicans want to restrict my social freedoms (porn, sex, drugs, etc) based on their fundamentalist beliefs, while the Democrats want to restrict my individual freedoms (RtKBA, etc.). Neither is tenable nor acceptable.

Tony Sopranno
02-06-2009, 10:06 AM
Seeing politics in terms of Republican vs. Democrat is simply two-dimensional. The world is far more complex than that and requires more critical thinking about the issues and consideration of other alternatives than any two-party system can possibly offer.

Demonizing Obama and wishing him failure is a myopic, partisan, and unreasonable position to take considering the current state of the nation. While you may not agree with his positions and ideology, if you were a true patriot you would want to see him succeed - for the sake of this country. If the two sides can't or won't come together to fix the current crises, the people of this country will hold both of them accountable, one way or another. It is against the anvil of great national crises that the hammer of public opinion smashes the existing political paradigms and new paradigms are forged. Partisan politics can not stand.

Personally I will never again vote either Republican or Democrat. As one insightful board member alludes to in his sig line, the Republicans want to restrict my social freedoms (porn, sex, drugs, etc) based on their fundamentalist beliefs, while the Democrats want to restrict my individual freedoms (RtKBA, etc.). Neither is tenable nor acceptable.One of the most sensible and well thought out posts that I've read on this or many other threads... Hear hear..!

And thank you, for your voice of reason and your non-emotional response. I was wondering if there was anyone else out there who saw it this way.

Gator Monroe
02-06-2009, 10:09 AM
Vote Green ? vote Independant ?? Nationalist Republican sounds better ! (Kinda like Independant Democrat Joe Lieberman):thumbsup::chris:

Monoz
02-06-2009, 10:31 AM
I hope Obama fails miserably. This country needs a revolution.

Have you ever watched a Pachinko ball fall down the play field? You would think that the path it takes should be predictable. After all, it is just Newtonian physics. "A body in motion stays in motion" and all that.

But the path a Pachinko ball takes isn't predictable. It is extremely chaotic, because the effect of the smallest variable gets amplified and reamplified by the actions that follow. What seemed like the simplest act - shooting a ball to the top of the field - is revealed as a source of tremendous chaos.

Revolutions are like that.

You can never predict how a revolution is going to turn out. You could very well end up worse off than you are now. Revolution should be the last thing you wish for, unless things have become truly intolerable and you have no other options, or unless you simply don't give a damn about what happens to society around you.

The next American revolution won't be the British Army meeting the Continental Army on the field of battle. It won't be the Blue and the Gray marching bravely off to Gettysburg. It will be Bosnia and Herzegovina. It will be Tutsis and Hutus. It will be Kosovo and Montenegro. And violent revolution is the last thing I hope for, especially for the sake of my children.

You don't like what we've got? Then work to change it. But don't go wishing for the world to come falling down around us.

Gator Monroe
02-06-2009, 10:33 AM
This country is Balkanized in many different ways !:thumbsup:

Alaric
02-06-2009, 10:40 AM
Have you ever watched a Pachinko ball fall down the play field? You would think that the path it takes should be predictable. After all, it is just Newtonian physics. "A body in motion stays in motion" and all that.

But the path a Pachinko ball takes isn't predictable. It is extremely chaotic, because the effect of the smallest variable gets amplified and reamplified by the actions that follow. What seemed like the simplest act - shooting a ball to the top of the field - is revealed as a source of tremendous chaos.

Revolutions are like that.

You can never predict how a revolution is going to turn out. You could very well end up worse off than you are now. Revolution should be the last thing you wish for, unless things have become truly intolerable and you have no other options, or unless you simply don't give a damn about what happens to society around you.

The next American revolution won't be the British Army meeting the Continental Army on the field of battle. It won't be the Blue and the Gray marching bravely off to Gettysburg. It will be Bosnia and Herzegovina. It will be Tutsis and Hutus. It will be Kosovo and Montenegro. And violent revolution is the last thing I hope for, especially for the sake of my children.

You don't like what we've got? Then work to change it. But don't go wishing for the world to come falling down around us.

+1, nice use of chaos theory.

I agree with your prediction of how another revolution (second Civil War might be more apt?) would turn out. It would be ugly in the extreme, for the entire world. Imagine what would happen with our nuclear arsenal for example. What if one of the factions were to attempt to use them? Violent revolution should truly be a last resort.

Fortunately, our system of government allows for change within it. The old political parties can be thrown away at will, or modified. We could even do away with party politics altogether. After all, political parties aren't even mentioned in the Constitution.

Cypren
02-06-2009, 10:52 AM
The next American revolution won't be the British Army meeting the Continental Army on the field of battle. It won't be the Blue and the Gray marching bravely off to Gettysburg. It will be Bosnia and Herzegovina. It will be Tutsis and Hutus. It will be Pol Pot in Cambodia. And violent revolution is the last thing I hope for, especially for the sake of my children.

Very insightful, and an excellent point. Warfare and tactics have changed considerably in 250 years, and become far more violent and destructive. The British lost largely because they had poor communications and were overwhelmingly arrogant, not because they lacked the resources to win. The modern US military wouldn't have the same problem in the event it could be turned against the populace; the tactics, equipment and doctrine have been forged in the last decade specifically to handle counterinsurgency of the sort that would be used in a revolution.

At this point, the only hope of a would-be revolutionary is that the military would fragment if ordered to turn on American civilians, due to its deeply ingrained culture of honor and duty to the Constitution; if the military acts in unity against the populace, the revolution is over before it begins. But that culture can be changed over a period of time by a series of Presidents through their appointment and promotion of senior officers who share more totalitarian views and shape the training and education programs of successive generations.

The most likely scenario is that any uprising in the modern day would be quashed well before it could gain the traction with the populace necessary to turn it into a real revolution. The government's intelligence network through NSA and FBI monitoring of communications is so advanced compared to previous years that it would be practically impossible for revolutionaries to organize in such a way as to stir up popular emotion Emmanuel Goldstein style and get the average person to be willing to take up arms. They would be demonized in the mainstream press, marginalized as radicals and raided by paramilitary FBI teams before they could even get off the ground.

The best thing that can really be said is that as long as the populace retains millions of unregistered firearms, the government is held to some limits on how egregious its breaches of liberty can become out of fear that they themselves will serve as the widespread catalyst for an uprising without an external agitator.

Gator Monroe
02-06-2009, 10:57 AM
If China was Chewing on Taiwan & Japan and New Russia made it's move on 15 countries at once and India LIT two or three off in Pakistan befor the Recently Burnt Paki's could respond with their own there would be a window of about 3 weeks where a Coup de eta James would have the best chance of success!:thumbsup:

Alaric
02-06-2009, 11:17 AM
Let's also not forget that the last American Civil War cost more American lives than all other wars we've been in combined. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_casualties_of_war

yellowfin
02-06-2009, 12:00 PM
It looks like an intermediate choice is wished for. We all know we can't get the action we want in the usual way, as the deck is too stacked. But apparently we don't want the hard way either.

Tony Sopranno
02-06-2009, 5:17 PM
Let's also not forget that the last American Civil War cost more American lives than all other wars we've been in combined. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_casualties_of_warAnd it was fought initially over issues regarding "states rights" and ended up being a contest over whether "all men" in the Declaration of Independence -- not the Constitution -- meant "all men" or something different.

When I took political science (sophomore/junior years) the way they tried to teach it was there are two basic schools of thought in this country about how political change comes into being...

1. Conflict politics
2. Consensus politics

Each school thinks the other is dead wrong. But both schools admit clearly that an amalgam of the two is what really makes political change in America work. And, according to the times, one school holds sway over the other -- so, both are right and neither are right, at the same time. Which is what makes American politics incredibly unpredictable, more a product of tradition than what is actually written down on paper in the Constitution.

Most of our political ideas come from Englishman John Locke, the writings of Thomas Jefferson, and the Federalist Papers' political paradigms from around the time the Constitution came into existence. The Constitution is the framework and blueprint so to speak, but those other writings are the basis for how politics in the U.S. works, and has always worked.

When Consensus becomes too stressed, Conflict takes over, and when Conflict is too stressed Consensus rules the day. The way I understand it, in this country the political elites are in flux, but whomever they are, they want to keep the status quo (basic human nature).

Whenever the situation looks like another 'Shay's Rebellion' is in the works, and imminent, one school or the other, or a combination of the both, takes hold to move the country away from that immanent rebellion, no matter who or what it's really about. At the end of the day, no matter what... the designers of the US Constitution wanted to avoid (and disallow) another revolution or series of civil wars from destroying this nation.

Our own Civil War was a time when neither side could come to allow consensus vs. conflict to work out some balance in respective political arenas, so it moved onto the country's battlefields. At the very end of the Civil War the South would have gladly sued for a consensus peace while the dominant Union forces would have none of it. Oddly, at the beginning of the Civil War the nearly exact reverse was true.

...Conflict, consensus, balance of power, political elites, it's all in the mix, almost formulaic, but still unpredictable... go figure! "Like a box of chocolates you just don't know what you're gonna get!"

MadMex
02-06-2009, 5:45 PM
you mean there is more required to being the President than having an affirmative action degree in Law and chanting "hope" and "change"
no worries Hussein has Acorn to activate if needed.
It also helps to have been a Community Organizer.

Somebody needs to start a Wikipedia entry for “Oh Shet Moment” and grace it with Hussein’s last few days.