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harmoniums
02-04-2009, 2:24 PM
So you can t buy 5.7mm AP rounds as they defeat Level IIIa body armor and as a result are considered cop killer rounds.
Fair enough,

BUT what about 7.62x25mm? these round seem really hot and according to this they defeat kevlar helmets:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

how is it they were never made illegal? are they considered a rifle round as they fit in ppshs?

sorensen440
02-04-2009, 2:26 PM
I think its all about if they were designed to be AP

biscuitninja
02-04-2009, 2:34 PM
Well i'm betting it is because they are not steel cored rounds. But having a small little round come SMOKING out of a small pistol doesn't mean it can't overpenetrate.

-bix

Vin496
02-04-2009, 2:40 PM
So you can t buy 5.7mm AP rounds as they defeat Level IIIa body armor and as a result are considered cop killer rounds.
Fair enough,

BUT what about 7.62x25mm? these round seem really hot and according to this they defeat kevlar helmets:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

how is it they were never made illegal? are tehy considered a rifle round as teh fit in ppshs?

I don't think the 5.7 AP round is actually illegal, FN just chooses not to sale it to civilians, based on the bad press it gets, it pops up from time to time for sale, but be prepared to spend about $500+ for a box of 50 rounds.

Casual Observer
02-04-2009, 3:19 PM
There are alot of handgun rounds that will go through a cop's vest.

But designing a round and slapping the "armor-piercing" label on it is sure to draw more attention.

SwissFluCase
02-04-2009, 3:19 PM
If someone carries a 5.7 with the intent to kill cops, they probably have a mindset that is more dangerous than any pistol round.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

NuGunner
02-05-2009, 1:28 AM
shoot if that were the case they wouldn't be selling 5.56/.223 or 7.62

I've also "heard" that .22 can go through a vest, something about distribution of kinetic energy...the person lost me after a while...but yea, never did any follow up on it...if anyone has an answer It'd be much appreciated.

gotgunz
02-05-2009, 2:26 AM
BUT what about 7.62x25mm? these round seem really hot......
how is it they were never made illegal?

Because nobody ever made this info known; either to the whackos in Sacramento or on a public forum.....




until now. :90:

Turbinator
02-05-2009, 12:11 PM
Cop killer rounds are any rounds that kill police officers. Period. Could be .22lr, could be a BB gun, could be 9mm. Sad that the term even exists, though.

Turby

SwissFluCase
02-05-2009, 12:33 PM
Cop killer rounds are any rounds that kill police officers. Period. Could be .22lr, could be a BB gun, could be 9mm. Sad that the term even exists, though.

Turby

It's a slur.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

AaronHorrocks
02-05-2009, 12:42 PM
Because nobody ever made this info known; either to the whackos in Sacramento or on a public forum.....




until now. :90:

Exactly! Shut the heck up about my supersonic soviet rounds, comrade! ;)

Hopi
02-05-2009, 12:44 PM
kill this thread before Allison gets any ideas....

MrSlippyFist
02-05-2009, 12:49 PM
BUT what about 7.62x25mm? these round seem really hot and according to this they defeat kevlar helmets:


Kevlar helmets are designed to deflect shrapnel and everything smaller than 9mm parabellum. So any rifle round or pistol round more powerful than 9mm will defeat a kevlar helmet.

Fate
02-05-2009, 12:56 PM
Kevlar helmets are designed to deflect shrapnel and everything smaller than 9mm parabellum. So any rifle round or pistol round more powerful than 9mm will defeat a kevlar helmet.
Actually some of the modern versions of helmets can defeat a rifle round. Watching the Military channel about a year ago, saw a profile on a helmet company that test fired a .308 round into the helmet at 50 yards as a demonstration for the show. Helmet contained the bullet with zero penetration or interior deformation. Nice to see innovation that works. :thumbsup:

MrSlippyFist
02-05-2009, 1:01 PM
Actually some of the modern versions of helmets can defeat a rifle round. Watching the Military channel about a year ago, saw a profile on a helmet company that test fired a .308 round into the helmet at 50 yards as a demonstration for the show. Helmet contained the bullet with zero penetration or interior deformation. Nice to see innovation that works. :thumbsup:

Yes, but the PASGT helmet used widely by ours and others suck (and the one in the link by the OP). Ask me how I know.

RobG
02-05-2009, 1:07 PM
Actually some of the modern versions of helmets can defeat a rifle round. Watching the Military channel about a year ago, saw a profile on a helmet company that test fired a .308 round into the helmet at 50 yards as a demonstration for the show. Helmet contained the bullet with zero penetration or interior deformation. Nice to see innovation that works. :thumbsup:

It may not penetrate but a 308 round at 50 yds could easily kill by the impact alone.

nick
02-05-2009, 1:11 PM
Yes, but the PASGT helmet used widely by ours and others suck (and the one in the link by the OP). Ask me how I know.

How do you know? :p

MrSlippyFist
02-05-2009, 1:14 PM
How do you know? :p

lol

Had many re-issued to me, some from shrapnel some from being squashed by the M113.

/DO NOT joke around with the crew-chief of a crash-hawk about tossing your helmet into the blades in order to ask for a new one.

MrSlippyFist
02-05-2009, 1:21 PM
The PASGT Helmet will stop any rifle round, most commonly 7.62x39mm

I don't know who wrote up that wiki page on the PASGT helmet, because I know i've seen DOD documentation that it is only guaranteed for 9mm and below/moderate shrapnel. I guess that's why it says [citation needed] after the statement. I've got one of these that is too small for me.... perhaps a field test is in order.

Fate
02-05-2009, 1:30 PM
It may not penetrate but a 308 round at 50 yds could easily kill by the impact alone.
Probably right on that point! At least you'll have a purdy corpse.

nick
02-05-2009, 1:37 PM
I don't know who wrote up that wiki page on the PASGT helmet, because I know i've seen DOD documentation that it is only guaranteed for 9mm and below/moderate shrapnel. I guess that's why it says [citation needed] after the statement. I've got one of these that is too small for me.... perhaps a field test is in order.

Don't bother, I know that it doesn't stop it. Don't ask me how I know it :p

MrSlippyFist
02-05-2009, 1:39 PM
I've been wanting to debunk the 9mm vs 5.7 myth or .223 vs 5.7, and this may help. My only concern is testing both with one helmet. I wonder if I can cut it in half down the middle and test the side, without compromising structural integrity.

nick
02-05-2009, 1:40 PM
It being shot through will compromise it anyway.

nick
02-05-2009, 1:40 PM
maybe, putting a sandbag in it would help?

MrSlippyFist
02-05-2009, 1:41 PM
It being shot through will compromise it anyway.

I want to turn one helmet into 2 test subjects is what I meant.

nick
02-05-2009, 1:43 PM
I want to turn one helmet into 2 test subjects is what I meant.

I realize that. It's just that, as I understand, they plan the stress points, etc., and so if you cut it in half, the halves are likely to have different properties than those same spots on the complete helmet.

EDIT: I'm just curious if putting a sandbag in it, which would conform to the helmet's inner shape, would provide enough support for it that it could retain similar enough properties after having been shot through.

1lostinspace
02-05-2009, 4:30 PM
So you can t buy 5.7mm AP rounds as they defeat Level IIIa body armor and as a result are considered cop killer rounds.
Fair enough,

BUT what about 7.62x25mm? these round seem really hot and according to this they defeat kevlar helmets:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

how is it they were never made illegal? are they considered a rifle round as they fit in ppshs?

what about a 300 win Mag?
Or any other high powered rifle round?

Sampachi
02-05-2009, 4:44 PM
I don't think the 5.7 AP round is actually illegal, FN just chooses not to sale it to civilians, based on the bad press it gets, it pops up from time to time for sale, but be prepared to spend about $500+ for a box of 50 rounds.

This is correct. It's a self-imposed ban. The box will say "For Law Enforcement Only" but there are no Federal laws governing it's purchase.

MrSlippyFist
02-05-2009, 5:42 PM
This is correct. It's a self-imposed ban. The box will say "For Law Enforcement Only" but there are no Federal laws governing it's purchase.

I think that only the SS198LF says that on the box, but you are right - FNH has made it (SS190 and SS198LF) hard to come by simply by restricting sales.

Max-the-Silent
02-05-2009, 6:43 PM
Cop killer rounds are any rounds that kill police officers. Period. Could be .22lr, could be a BB gun, could be 9mm. Sad that the term even exists, though.

Turby

Sadder still that the KTW round was invented by two cops and a prosecuter (or some other official, I'm having a senior moment) and the stuff was never readily available outside of mil/LE.

The A-hole that went public with it was Mario Biaggi, who eventually went to prison on corruption charges. It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy:

"Biaggi was sentenced to two-and-a-half years in prison and fined $500,000 for accepting an illegal gratuity and obstructing justice in 1987. He had accepted free vacations from former Brooklyn Democratic leader Meade Esposito in exchange for using his influence to help a ship-repair company that was a major client of Esposito's insurance agency.[1] The House Ethics Committee recommended that Biaggi be expelled the most severe of penalties.

In 1988, Biaggi was forced to resign his seat after he was convicted a second time in federal court of 15 felony counts for obstruction of justice and accepting illegal gratuities, stemming from Biaggi's acceptance of bribes in exchange for federal construction contracts in the so-called Wedtech scandal.[2] He was an unsuccessful candidate in 1992 for nomination to the 103rd Congress."

cousinkix1953
02-06-2009, 2:45 AM
Cop killer rounds are any rounds that kill police officers. Period. Could be .22lr, could be a BB gun, could be 9mm. Sad that the term even exists, though.

Turby
TRUE; but these idiots haven't figured that out. You're dead if you get shot in the head with most any kind of bullet. How dare somebody like G Gordon Liddy or SJPD sergeat, Leroy Pyle point out the fallacy of such stupid laws.

You can kill somebody with properly placed pellet, from a Benjamin or Sheridan air rifle. Those things are as deadly as a .22 LR at close range...

Stormfeather
02-06-2009, 4:52 AM
No need to debunk this myth, dont waste that helmet unless you really want to try it for personal information. I used a PASGT helmet and shot it up with everything from .22 to .50CAL. I think the only stuff that didnt penetrate was the .25 AND .32 CAL rounds. This was done at various distances from 5 yards o 50 yards with a small collection of watermelons I wanted to get rid of. Everything was a thru and thru shot, nothing as far as I know didnt make it all the way thru. Helmets are designed for shrapnel and glancing blows from low power rounds, unfortunately, that didnt stop rounds from penetrating it on glancing blow as well.

SDgarrick
02-06-2009, 3:56 PM
No need to debunk this myth, dont waste that helmet unless you really want to try it for personal information. I used a PASGT helmet and shot it up with everything from .22 to .50CAL. I think the only stuff that didnt penetrate was the .25 AND .32 CAL rounds. This was done at various distances from 5 yards o 50 yards with a small collection of watermelons I wanted to get rid of. Everything was a thru and thru shot, nothing as far as I know didnt make it all the way thru. Helmets are designed for shrapnel and glancing blows from low power rounds, unfortunately, that didnt stop rounds from penetrating it on glancing blow as well.

I've heard various criticisms of the Box O Truth methods, but I do wonder as to why his tests showed such a variance from yours?

Also, I think to really accurately do this test, one would need quite a few helmets, as the structural integrity of each helmet is compromised each time it is shot. perhaps not completely, but it could be the difference between a bullet puncturing and not puncturing a helmet.