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.454
02-04-2009, 8:52 AM
What make gun grabbers like Obama, Diane Feinstein, Paul Helmke, Carolyn McCarthy, Charles Schumer or Eric Holder tick?
Gus Cotey, Jr. from Jews for Preservation of Firearms Ownership has the answer (http://transsylvaniaphoenix.blogspot.com/2009/02/jpfos-seven-varieties-of-gun-gontrol.html).

MudCamper
02-04-2009, 9:21 AM
What make gun grabbers like Obama, Diane Feinstein, Paul Helmke, Carolyn McCarthy, Charles Schumer or Eric Holder tick?

It's a reasonable article, but the preface, which starts with, "What make gun grabbers like Hussein Obama," immediately discredits it. Using Obama's middle name rather than his first name sets the "crazy" tone right out of the gate. Personally, I will follow the links to the article's source before showing this to others.

Edit: Here's the source article (http://www.jpfo.org/kirby/kirby-know-enemy.htm).

Cypren
02-04-2009, 9:28 AM
The article paints people with a pretty broad brush, and is downright insulting in a lot of places. I'm not saying that it isn't true -- I think those categories do pretty much sum up the base motives of the anti-gun coalition -- but I'd be shocked if presentation in that dismissive, generalizing fashion (as opposed to a more disinterested, rational-argument one) is going to persuade anyone who isn't already on our side.

And he forgot one more category: lobbyists. Lots of people in places like Brady and VPC make a lot of money and derive a lot of power off of exploiting the other seven groups for donations and using them to pressure public officials for special treatment and power.

yellowfin
02-04-2009, 10:53 AM
It's only insulting because it's true.

Gator Monroe
02-04-2009, 10:55 AM
Lib/Dems will insult back against the truth put out by Right wing Joooooos.

DDT
02-04-2009, 10:58 AM
Lib/Dems will insult back against the truth put out by Right wing Joooooos.

Cindy Sheehan's anti-semetic tirades should show this fact pretty clearly.

Gator Monroe
02-04-2009, 11:03 AM
Cindy Sheehan's anti-semetic tirades should show this fact pretty clearly.

Liberals have a problem with Zionists and Israeli Jews and strong RIGHT LEANING American Jews .

Cypren
02-04-2009, 11:07 AM
I know it's true. But truth sometimes has to be presented with tact in order to win ground for your argument, and I felt that particular article had good substance but lacked tact, making it useless for persuading people.

We, as weapons-rights activists, have a serious perception problem in modern culture. The lack of availability of weapons, heavy restrictions on their carriage, presentation and use, and the constant, mind-numbing assault of the media, the schools, and public officials to portray us all as reactionary, ignorant, sociopathic killers looking for the thinnest excuse to shed blood have all taken their toll. The only way we "win hearts and minds" and get people to see us as functional, productive, upstanding citizens is to behave better than the opposition. To be more professional, more honorable, less inflammatory and more tactful. We can disagree politely, confidently and with evidence, rather than making blanket ad hominem attacks on those who would do the same to us.

This is a public relations battle, and at the moment, we're still losing badly due to the power of the forces arrayed against us and their stranglehold on shaping popular culture and mindsets.

That's all I was trying to say.

Gator Monroe
02-04-2009, 11:20 AM
Public Relations & Spin & Polls are the realm of the Secular Progressive Liberals and their grip on 21st century pop culture is beyond our control right now ...

Cypren
02-04-2009, 11:26 AM
Public Relations & Spin & Polls are the realm of the Secular Progressive Liberals and their grip on 21st century pop culture is beyond our control right now ...

Be that as it may, there are traditionally two options for changing governance in a given area: persuade people to vote that way, or force them to do so at gunpoint. The opposition is doing their best to use the former to convince the public we want to do the latter. So our choices are really to play their own game (public relations is just another name for persuasion on a large scale), to do exactly what they claim we're all waiting to do (get our way through violence), or to roll over and hand over our weapons. Since I'm rather opposed to threats and murder as a policy instrument, and I'd like to keep my guns, that doesn't seem to leave a lot of options other than to persuade. Can you suggest a better one?

MudCamper
02-04-2009, 12:52 PM
Gator, I like terms like "secular" and "progessive" and even sometimes "Liberal" and "Democrat". In fact, I would go so far as to say I use these terms to describe myself.

secular: a: of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns> b: not overtly or specifically religious <secular music> c: not ecclesiastical or clerical <secular courts>

progressive: a: of, relating to, or characterized by progress b: making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities

liberal: broad-minded ; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms

Canute
02-04-2009, 1:07 PM
Yup, I dug deep into some of their material and found myself feeling a little dirty afterwards. I just took it as an interesting sociological adventure in the end. A little too much for me as a secular Libertarian. I think Reason (http://www.reason.com/) and the Future of Freedom Foundation (http://www.fff.org/) are a lot more rational and speak to me better.
I got in an argument (and won) thanks to Bruce Schneier, a security expert. He wrote an article for Wired just after Virginia Tech about the psychology of rare events (http://www.wired.com/politics/security/commentary/securitymatters/2007/05/securitymatters_0517).

Gator Monroe
02-04-2009, 1:12 PM
Gator, I like terms like "secular" and "progessive" and even sometimes "Liberal" and "Democrat". In fact, I would go so far as to say I use these terms to describe myself.

secular: a: of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns> b: not overtly or specifically religious <secular music> c: not ecclesiastical or clerical <secular courts>

progressive: a: of, relating to, or characterized by progress b: making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities

liberal: broad-minded ; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
Would you vote for a 2A FRIENDLY GOP candidate for Governor or state assembly over ardant anti- Democrat in next election ?

MudCamper
02-04-2009, 1:28 PM
Would you vote for a 2A FRIENDLY GOP candidate for Governor or state assembly over ardant anti- Democrat in next election ?

Huh? Wouldn't a GOP candidate and an anti-Democrat candidate be the same thing?

Oh, you mean anti-gun Democrat. :)

I would vote for a Republican or a Democrat, if either were pro-2A, and not anti-1A/4A/5A/etc. I never vote along party lines. I think it's foolish and dangerous.

Cypren
02-04-2009, 1:34 PM
I would vote for a Republican or a Democrat, if either were pro-2A, and not anti-1A/4A/5A/etc. I never vote along party lines. I think it's foolish and dangerous.

Well said. Anyone who thinks the Republicans are the "party of gun rights" and the Democrats are the "party of gun grabbers" doesn't pay attention to the details. Political parties are malleable and the broad platforms we associate to them often don't hold at the individual level. Our current state of affairs didn't come to be because only Democrats voted for gun control.

Gator Monroe
02-04-2009, 1:35 PM
Anti- means anti-2A at a fitrearms forum (Not Anti-Gay or Anti-Semite UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED (how did I lose you on that one ?):sleeping: