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View Full Version : Are there still crimes committed with machine guns?


Adonlude
02-03-2009, 10:47 AM
I was just reading the NFA thread and it got me thinking. We always argue that gun ban's only take guns away from law abiding citizens but not criminals. Anti's generally want to make guns dissapear in any and every way possible hoping that it will make gun crime go away. Anti's feel that less legally sold guns = less guns making their way to criminals.

Machine guns were legal for a long period of time and there were many "Machine Gun Kelley's" committing crimes. Now that machine guns have been illegal for a long period of time I see no crimes being committed with machine guns. Do criminals still get machine guns? It seems to me that the answer to this question would strongly support one side of the argument.

EDIT: After more thought I think the answer is going to be that, given enough time, drastic gun control measures do infact have the primary effect of disarming the law abiding populus and the side effect of disarming criminals but you still get mass murders like the knifing rampage I read about recently that took place in another country. And yes, knifing rampages do amount to less dead people than AK-47 rampages but the cost of reducing the death toll by ~75% when the 0.0000001% of the populus decides to go on said rampage is stripping 100% of the populus of their god given second amendment right to protect themselves from criminals or a tyrannical government.

p7m8jg
02-03-2009, 10:50 AM
I think its rare that criminals get/use machine guns. It happens, but the number is small compared to all other crimes where guns are used.

Semi-autos are just as good to them and easier to get.

NFA was just another emotional knee-jerk response to a well-publicized problem at the time, like most gun control laws.

KCM222
02-03-2009, 10:59 AM
The Hollywood bank robery is the first thing that came to mind for me.

I feel like you periodically hear about gang shootings in LA where someone drives by and sprays bullets with an automatic weapon, although I have no links to stories to back that claim up.

The vast majority of crimes committed seem to be with small, cheap, handguns. (will Nerf'ed pistols be the new EBRs?)

double_action
02-03-2009, 11:03 AM
The Hollywood bank robery is the first thing that came to mind for me.

I feel like you periodically hear about gang shootings in LA where someone drives by and sprays bullets with an automatic weapon, although I have no links to stories to back that claim up.

The vast majority of crimes committed seem to be with small, cheap, handguns. (will Nerf'ed pistols be the new EBRs?)

The Hollywood bank robbers used semi-autos that THEY had converted to full auto.

bwiese
02-03-2009, 11:13 AM
The only criminal use of an NFA-papered gun as I recall was by an Ohio cop.

However there are quite a few cops in CA with NFA-type guns that have not been NFA papered and those guns/cops are thus part of ongoing crimes.

AJAX22
02-03-2009, 11:15 AM
I was just reading the NFA thread and it got me thinking. We always argue that gun ban's only take guns away from law abiding citizens but not criminals. Anti's generally want to make guns dissapear in any and every way possible hoping that it will make gun crime go away. Anti's feel that less legally sold guns = less guns making their way to criminals.

Machine guns were legal for a long period of time and there were many "Machine Gun Kelley's" committing crimes. Now that machine guns have been illegal for a long period of time I see no crimes being committed with machine guns. Do criminals still get machine guns? It seems to me that the answer to this question would strongly support one side of the argument.

Is your question "Are factory machine guns used in crames?"

or is it "Are illegally full auto converted semi's used in crimes?"

I've seen several a lot of full auto converted weapons reported as being used in crimes, however it is no where near as many as the crimes which are done with small cheap guns.

Back in 1934 EVERYONE could cary a gun.... criminals needed the hardware edge to not be outgunned by the regular guys on the sidewalk.

Nowadays they can slap you around with a wet noodle and take your property/life if they feel like it.... so why invest in expensive machine guns?

They really only buy machine guns because they fear the threat of other criminals who might be carrying firearms.

If it were legal for everyone to carry a full auto sub machine gun down the street (and people did)... most criminals would retire or move into retail sales.

Glock22Fan
02-03-2009, 11:17 AM
In Aston, Birmingham, England, a few years back on New Year's Eve, there were some innocent bystanders shot in a drive by by gang members using fully auto Uzis. (I could find the link if anyone really wants it).

How can this be on a small island with a virtually total gun ban and ferocious customs agents?

Steyr_223
02-03-2009, 11:17 AM
All the crimes committed with machine guns in the news turned out to be BS..
It almost turns out to be semiauto..Exceptions being the Hollywood shootings covered above..

IIRC, the California 101 and Virginia tech events were reported to be a done with machine guns base on initial reports.

Cypren
02-03-2009, 11:34 AM
As I understand it, most crimes committed with fully automatic weapons are turf wars between drug organizations and gangs. They're not unheard-of, but they aren't nearly as common as individual murders either -- drug cartels are businesses like any other, and the cost of using a large degree of organized armed force has to be factored against profit margins. Like several other posters have said, machine guns are expensive, not to mention hard to control, not easily concealed, and extremely loud and attention-grabbing. That pretty much restricts them to situations that call for a paramilitary response, and any intelligently run organization is going to do its best to limit those situations so as not to draw attention and lose personnel.

I don't think that gun control laws or availability have much to do with it, though. Most of these organizations smuggle their weapons -- semi-autos and full-autos both -- across the Mexican border, and they're all illegal if found. They simply don't widely deploy them for some of the same reasons that police don't widely deploy them: they aren't practical.

CCWFacts
02-03-2009, 12:16 PM
Crimes with illegally-owned MGs are very rare. Crimes with legally-owned (papered) MGs are even more rare, almost non-existent in the 70-year history of the NFA. There have been only about two or three cases that I have heard of of crimes being committed with NFA MGs. The most recent one is someone was indicted for criminal negligence for allowing an eight-year-old to use an Uzi. The child lost control and died. Anyone who has fired an Uzi will know that it's insane to allow an 8-year-old to use one; they are hard to control in full-auto fire. But anyway, the illegal ones are very rarely used in crimes and the legal ones, almost never.

Icarus
02-03-2009, 12:53 PM
In the early 1930's very few people had MG's. Cost was a big factor as most people didn't make much money. Movies portrayed criminals as using MG's and the good guys using revolvers. Also MG's were associated with war and WW1 had not been over that long. The MG was the scourge of trench warfare. So when the NFA was enacted in 1934 not many people complained. After all it did not ban MG's it just taxed them $100. Democrats used to believe in the 2A.

stillnotbob
02-03-2009, 1:01 PM
Umm... I may be wrong, but automatic weapons are not ILLEGAL (in parts of this country). One just needs to jump some Federal hurdles and pay some high fees to own one.

In our great state of California they are illegal.

Why commit a crime with a $14,000 weapon when anything else (knives included) will work????

DDT
02-03-2009, 1:03 PM
People don't need full autos to pull off crimes today. The populace is mostly unarmed, the populace doesn't want to get involved and the police don't show up for 10 minutes so full auto isn't needed to accomplish their goals.

Converting an AR to full auto is so simple that you can't say full auto weapons aren't available to criminals. It is just easier and adequate for them to use easily concealable handguns in MOST cases.

sorensen440
02-03-2009, 1:03 PM
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w64/sorensen440/before1934_7305.jpg

cmaynes
02-03-2009, 1:23 PM
Go to the Mexican Border....

http://www.usborderpatrol.com/Border_Patrol_MexicanMilitary.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1489865/posts

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_/ai_n30949418

Librarian
02-03-2009, 3:20 PM
Umm... I may be wrong, but automatic weapons are not ILLEGAL (in parts of this country). One just needs to jump some Federal hurdles and pay some high fees to own one.

In our great state of California they are illegal.

Why commit a crime with a $14,000 weapon when anything else (knives included) will work????
Not wrong about the Federal part, but full auto weapons are, in fact, legal in California -- if one can get a machine gun permit. 12230 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12230-12234.html). The Department of Justice may issue permits for the
possession, manufacture, and transportation or possession,
manufacture, or transportation of machineguns, upon a satisfactory
showing that good cause exists for the issuance thereof to the
applicant for the permit, but no permit shall be issued to a person
who is under 18 years of age.

Salty
02-03-2009, 3:28 PM
... but full auto weapons are, in fact, legal in California -- if one can get a machine gun permit.

Has anyone without connections ever been able to get one?

CSACANNONEER
02-03-2009, 3:48 PM
Has anyone without connections ever been able to get one?

YES! I know a few non-military and non-LEs who legally have full auto weapons in this state.

CCWFacts
02-03-2009, 4:27 PM
Has anyone without connections ever been able to get one?

Yes, it's certainly possible. For movie props companies, trainers, maybe a few others. I think that if an ordinary Joe applied and his only reason is, "I just want to own an Uzi", that would be denied.

Salty
02-03-2009, 4:29 PM
YES! I know a few non-military and non-LEs who legally have full auto weapons in this state.

So I guess my next question is, what was their "good cause"?

After that would be, can an average joe like me go out and attempt to a get a "machine gun license" with any chance of success?

AaronHorrocks
02-03-2009, 4:39 PM
There have only been two cases of legally-owned machineguns being used in a crime.

While there are many many cases crimes commited with illegally built, converted, or smuggled into the country machineguns... Often by gangs or drug dealers/runners. However the numbers are relative. These crimes are fewer in number than those crimes commited with "assault rifles". And we all know that OF crimes commited with firearms, less than 2% of which are commited with "assault rifles".

I don't think this was a semi-auto:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=texas+highway+patrol&hl=en&emb=0&aq=0&oq=texas+highwa#

Let it be known that while must of us are on good behavour, and follow the National Firearms Acts, that criminals are still able to illegally get thier hands on full-autos and use them in crimes.

jamesob
02-03-2009, 4:44 PM
sure, our government commits crimes all the time with mg's.

Glock22Fan
02-03-2009, 4:48 PM
Nice poster, Sorensen.

bohoki
02-03-2009, 5:12 PM
hmm how about the guy who assembled his ar-15 into a "machine gun" and then allowed someone to use it

the crime was in the transfer so it was a crime committed with a machine gun

dwa
02-03-2009, 6:09 PM
are there cases of machine guns being smuggled into the country, with the drug intake measure in metric tons and submersibles being used and illegals walking into i don't see it as far fetched at all.

Max-the-Silent
02-03-2009, 6:27 PM
Back in the 1980's the Denver radio show host Alan Berg was murdered by some white power mental defectives using an illegally converted M10 w/ an illegally manufactured can.

The original lead singer of the band "Catcus" Rusty Day and his 11 year old son were murdered with a TSMG - 100 round mag dump - from Wiki:

"In 1982, Day was working on an album with Uncle Acid & The Permanent Damage Band, as well as dealing cocaine. Day owed money to Ron Sanders, one of the guitar players in his band, after a minor cocaine deal. Monte "Mondo" Thomas, Day's lead guitarist and close friend, explained Sanders as: "...a madman, he was a millionaire and a real bad coke fiend." Thomas and Day both lived in Day's house in Longwood, Florida, along with Day's 11-year old son Russell. Thomas had agreed to drive a friend out of town, and was therefore not present when Sanders opened fire with a machine gun, shooting through the windows in Day's house, killing Day, his son Russell, and a house guest, Garth McRae. Ron Sanders shot himself six weeks later, after police had surrounded his house due to entirely different charges than the triple murder weeks before."

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusty_Day"

The coke wars in Miami in the late seventies/early eighties was fought with illegal NFA stuff as a matter of course. MG's and cans were status symbols - watch the documentary "Cocaine Cowboys"

In the documentary "Mr. Untouchable" Nicky Barnes (heroin kingpin in Harlem) talks about getting his "first machine guns from the Mafia."

Little known factoid - Miami and the surrounding areas were really awash in non-registered NFA dating back to the Bay of Pigs 2506 Brigade days. Lots of weapons intended for the anti-Castro Cubans ended up running around loose.

For the most part, as other posters have pointed out, MG use is limited in scope and the weapons involved are not papered examples possessed by law-abiding civilians.

6172crew
02-03-2009, 6:32 PM
If we are talking legal machine guns then only 2 that I know of.

If we are taking about rigged semi-auto machine guns then yes, Im sure there are crimes committed using firearms that were stolen or rigged to shoot FA in my country every week.