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JB-Norcal
02-03-2009, 9:32 AM
Any simple info on school zones and how they've been inforced for permit and non-permit carriers (long guns too) ?
I've got pages and pages of stuff, is there any simple black and white precidents?

E Pluribus Unum
02-03-2009, 10:04 AM
Any simple info on school zones and how they've been inforced for permit and non-permit carriers (long guns too) ?
I've got pages and pages of stuff, is there any simple black and white precidents?

No CCW= Any gun, handgun, or longun must be in a locked case if within 1000 feet of a school that teaches K-12 grade.

JB-Norcal
02-03-2009, 11:29 AM
Thanks E -
I'm new to this (CCW in a school zone) and would like to turn over all the rocks easily.
Do you have a link to the exact part of the PC? As I recall it's a little vague(imagine that).
I own the book "How to own a gun(in cali) and not go to jail", and it's just not specific if long guns need to be locked or unloaded. I'm always afraid I'll have to educate a LEO in order to keep things simple.

Liberty1
02-03-2009, 11:32 AM
read

(I cut some of the fat off...)

626.9 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=626-626.11)

626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.

(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in
paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
specified in subdivision (f).

(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:

(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful.

(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.

This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.

(3) When the person possessing the firearm reasonably believes
that he or she is in grave danger because of circumstances forming
the basis of a current restraining order issued by a court against
another person or persons who has or have been found to pose a threat
to his or her life or safety. This subdivision may not apply when
the circumstances involve a mutual restraining order issued pursuant
to...

(e) As used in this section, the following definitions shall
apply:
(1) "School zone" means an area in, or on the grounds of, a public
or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1
to 12, inclusive, or within a distance of 1,000 feet from the
grounds of the public or private school.
(2) "Firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in
Section 12001.
(3) "Locked container" has the same meaning as that term is given
in subdivision (c) of Section 12026.1.
(4) "Concealed firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given
in Sections 12025 and 12026.1. ...

(l) This section does not apply to...

a person holding a valid license to carry the
firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of
Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, or...

and then there is the federal GFSZ law (a misdemeanor) which requires all firearms (including long arms) to be locked up (those licensed by the state to carry firearms are exempt).

If you have a Shasta County issued state license pursuant to PC 12050 and IF that issuing agency has placed a "restriction" on carry at schools for instance then a violation of that restriction could result in a revocation of the license (and possible criminal charges - unknown on that as I don't think there has ever been a case like that).

Librarian
02-03-2009, 12:45 PM
The Federal part is 18 USC 922 (q); the appropriate part is (2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
using the definitions from 18 USC 921 (25) The term “school zone” means—
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
(26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

Army
02-03-2009, 1:17 PM
Recall, you must "reasonably know" that you are in a school zone. I could have legally carried at the Alhambra get-together last Thursday, as I live 250 miles from there, and would have no clue where any school would be. I learned later, that a High School was less than 500' away. Reasonably, I had no knowledge of the school zone, and could not be prosecuted.Detained, harrassed, possibly arrested falsely, but not prosecuted by letter of the law.

Librarian
02-03-2009, 1:35 PM
Recall, you must "reasonably know" that you are in a school zone. I could have legally carried at the Alhambra get-together last Thursday, as I live 250 miles from there, and would have no clue where any school would be. I learned later, that a High School was less than 500' away. Reasonably, I had no knowledge of the school zone, and could not be prosecuted.Detained, harrassed, possibly arrested falsely, but not prosecuted by letter of the law.

Right - that's the practical problem with the 1000 foot rule. If you can't actually see a school, having driven by the property or seen the 'school zone' traffic control signs or some other evidence, it isn't reasonable to know you're near one.

A school is not necessarily an obvious thing; there are numerous private businesses offering at least Kindergarten-level education (e.g. Montessori schools) which are pretty low-profile. As private businesses, they may not get the street signs and crossing guards and other outward trappings that adhere to public or even some parochial schools.

Then there are the logical problems with the law ....

Decoligny
02-03-2009, 1:44 PM
Right - that's the practical problem with the 1000 foot rule. If you can't actually see a school, having driven by the property or seen the 'school zone' traffic control signs or some other evidence, it isn't reasonable to know you're near one.

A school is not necessarily an obvious thing; there are numerous private businesses offering at least Kindergarten-level education (e.g. Montessori schools) which are pretty low-profile. As private businesses, they may not get the street signs and crossing guards and other outward trappings that adhere to public or even some parochial schools.

Then there are the logical problems with the law ....

:D He used the words "logical" and "the law" in the same sentence. :D

DDT
02-03-2009, 1:53 PM
Do we have any GIS guys here? It would be interesting to know what percentage of incorporated cities are effected by the Gun Free School Zone. It would be really interesting to know if such a large percentage of our state is effected that the law can be relatively easily taken out after incorporation.

sfpcservice
02-03-2009, 1:56 PM
I'm on a 5500 Square foot island of private property surrounded on all sides by a school zone. Send help, supplies dwindling.

:chris:

Liberty1
02-03-2009, 2:43 PM
I'm on a 5500 Square foot island of private property surrounded on all sides by a school zone. Send help, supplies dwindling.

:chris:

The LA DA doesn't seem to think that private property is an exemption: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150893

AlexBreya
02-03-2009, 2:48 PM
wait, so if we're driving to a range with a shotgun/rifle, and we drive by a school, and the gun is in an unlocked case, we'd be breaking the law? i find it hard to believe since there are schools pretty much everywhere.

Librarian
02-03-2009, 4:15 PM
:D He used the words "logical" and "the law" in the same sentence. :D
Heh. Hope springs eternal....

Librarian
02-03-2009, 4:22 PM
wait, so if we're driving to a range with a shotgun/rifle, and we drive by a school, and the gun is in an unlocked case, we'd be breaking the law? i find it hard to believe since there are schools pretty much everywhere.

Trunk would be OK.

But yes, that's one of the obvious drawbacks of this silly thing. For example, Concord - partial list of schools (very tedious to do this through Google Maps, but better than with a compass!)

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj284/Librarian_bucket/ConcordSchools.jpg

Only representative - those are 1000' radius circles off the corners of the school properties. Here (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&source=embed&msa=0&msid=118336322083156881552.0004618eca0a3f4a580c9&ll=37.654376,-122.427508&spn=0.044237,0.077248)'s a better layout for part of South San Francisco, from RideFast at http://ridenshoot.blogspot.com/

sfpcservice
02-03-2009, 5:20 PM
The LA DA doesn't seem to think that private property is an exemption: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150893


I read that earlier and donated right after. I will eat a big chocolate cake the day the 626.9 is overturned. I will finally be able to leave my island and get one!

Is anyone familiar with the case where a felon was found in possession of a loaded and concealed pistol on a private driveway where upon trial the judge instructed the jury that since there wasn't a "physical barrier" between public and private property, the jury could still find the defendant guilty of 12031?

I realize 12031 is not an issue here, but I was stunned at the judges instructions and hope logic like this doesn't prevail in Theseus's case.

Liberty1
02-03-2009, 9:11 PM
I read that earlier and donated right after. I will eat a big chocolate cake the day the 626.9 is overturned. I will finally be able to leave my island and get one!

Is anyone familiar with the case where a felon was found in possession of a loaded and concealed pistol on a private driveway where upon trial the judge instructed the jury that since there wasn't a "physical barrier" between public and private property, the jury could still find the defendant guilty of 12031?

I realize 12031 is not an issue here, but I was stunned at the judges instructions and hope logic like this doesn't prevail in Theseus's case.


The difference between 12031 and 626.9 to my laymens mind is that 21031 deals with a "public place" where that offence can be applied and 626.9 is everything within a 1000' "radius". Except within that radius certain places are exempted including all "private property" not inside the school proper. 626.9 also doesn't have the "public place" ambiguity of 12031 which the courts have applied to private but publicly accessible areas like a "supermarket parking lot".

DDT
02-03-2009, 9:30 PM
Only representative - those are 1000' radius circles off the corners of the school properties. Here (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&source=embed&msa=0&msid=118336322083156881552.0004618eca0a3f4a580c9&ll=37.654376,-122.427508&spn=0.044237,0.077248)'s a better layout for part of South San Francisco, from RideFast at http://ridenshoot.blogspot.com/

Now add all the private schools.....

My son attends a VERY small private school right next to SFO. 12 kids and another 3 million square feet of prohibited area.

KWA-S
02-04-2009, 4:17 AM
So, the law makes an exception for owning an unloaded pistol in a locked container...this means someone can bring an unloaded handgun onto school property, what?

Also, they make no mention of long guns, I assume they are completely prohibited?

Are the laws for university campuses the same? If I want to transport my unloaded rifles locked in the trunk across university campus, I can't?

BobB35
02-04-2009, 5:12 AM
Librarian,

Wasn't the Federal Gun free zone act of 1990 found unconstituional by SCOTUS? Kind of famous. The revised law in 1996 makes it very difficult to enforce because of the requirement to prove interstate commerce? If you read the actual 1997 legislation you get a great insight into the way the anti's think. It is also interesting that it is a rider on a defense appropriations bill - hard to vote against.

revised Gun Free School Zones Act, enacted September 30, 1996.

Text of Conference Report on H.R. 3610
CONFERENCE REPORT ON H.R. 3610
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS ACT, 1997
[CR page H-11743]

Sec. 657. Section 922(q) of title 18, United States Code, is
amended to read as follows:

"(q)(1) The Congress finds and declares that--

"(A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a
pervasive, nationwide problem;

"(B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate
movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs;

"(C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate
commerce and have been found in increasing numbers in and around
schools, as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee
on the Judiciary the House of Representatives and the Committee on
the Judiciary of the Senate;

"(D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its
component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which they
are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;

"(E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary
citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through
certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime and
gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children to
school for the same reason;

"(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has
resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;

"(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse
impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the
United States;

"(H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost
impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves--even States,
localities, and school systems that have made strong efforts to
prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find their efforts
unavailing due in part to the failure or inability of other States
or localities to take strong measures; and

"(I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce
clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact measures
to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation's schools by
enactment of this subsection.

"(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

"(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm--

"(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

"(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under
law to receive the license;

"(iii) that is--

"(I) not loaded; and

"(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is
on a motor vehicle;

"(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a
school in the school zone;

"(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered
into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an
employer of the individual;

"(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her
official capacity; or

"(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual
while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access
to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school
premises is authorized by school authorities.

"(3)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be
unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for
the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a
firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or
foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.

"(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a
firearm--

"(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

"(ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school
zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;

"(iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered
into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an
employer of the individual; or

"(iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her
official capacity.

"(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as
preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting
a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this
subsection.".

Librarian
02-04-2009, 10:50 AM
Librarian,

Wasn't the Federal Gun free zone act of 1990 found unconstituional by SCOTUS? Kind of famous. The revised law in 1996 makes it very difficult to enforce because of the requirement to prove interstate commerce? If you read the actual 1997 legislation you get a great insight into the way the anti's think. It is also interesting that it is a rider on a defense appropriations bill - hard to vote against.


Yes - US v Lopez. The 1995 version has so far held up.

See http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones , though that article is a bit thinner than I would like.

Tier One Arms
02-04-2009, 11:22 AM
Does this mean that I can keep a gun in my car as long as it is in my trunk, on a Cal State campus?

Cypren
02-04-2009, 11:46 AM
Does this mean that I can keep a gun in my car as long as it is in my trunk, on a Cal State campus?

Deleted. Re-reading of the law caused me to notice a paragraph I had missed before (PC 626.9(i)) which indicates that this is flatly illegal with no exceptions.

Ironchef
02-04-2009, 12:05 PM
Carry a briefcase with the combo lock engaged by the flick of just one number, and keep your unloaded gun inside with loaded magazines.

I think someone here at one time designed or talked of designing a fully enclosed holster (1911 GI holster) that has a simple locking device on it...which would be legal transportation compliant with 626.9 and 12025.

Tier One Arms
02-04-2009, 12:06 PM
Thanks, how about ammo?

Cypren
02-04-2009, 12:23 PM
Thanks, how about ammo?

I just re-read the law. I believe I gave you the wrong information before -- my comments were correct for K-12 schools only, not college campuses. College campuses are covered under PC 626.9(h) and (i), which read, in part,

(i) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or
possesses a firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or
buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching,
research, or administration by, a public or private university
or college, that are contiguous or are clearly marked
university property, unless it is with the written permission
of the university or college president, his or her designee, or
equivalent university or college authority, shall be punished
by imprisonment in the state prison for one, two, or three
years.

Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a university or college shall
post a prominent notice at primary entrances on noncontiguous
property stating that firearms are prohibited on that property
pursuant to this subdivision.

The law says nothing about ammunition, but there are no exceptions for subdivision (i) like there are for subdivision (b) (which governs K-12 schools). So having the firearm is flatly illegal under any circumstances, barring an exception to the law elsewhere that I'm unaware of.

Tier One Arms
02-04-2009, 12:28 PM
That sucks, o well.

Librarian
02-04-2009, 1:28 PM
Thanks, how about ammo?

Also no on college/university. It's PC 12316(c) - see
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1247879&postcount=3

Cypren
02-04-2009, 1:36 PM
Also no on college/university. It's PC 12316(c) - see
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1247879&postcount=3

Ooh, good catch. This is why I don't take my own legal advice. :D

sfpcservice
02-04-2009, 2:03 PM
Does a local or state Peace Officer have the authority to arrest/cite based on the Federal School Zone ban? It seems to me he would have to detain and get a federal officer to arrest, since I think it would have to be handled in federal court. Does anyone know how this works?

SimpleCountryActuary
02-04-2009, 7:44 PM
I think someone here at one time designed or talked of designing a fully enclosed holster (1911 GI holster) that has a simple locking device on it...which would be legal transportation compliant with 626.9 and 12025.

I would buy one of those. I would, of course, have to buy a M1911 to go with it. (This logic is courtesy of my wife who had to buy a dress to go with the shoes she bought before.)