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View Full Version : CA CCW using a toy gun


Cypren
02-02-2009, 11:13 AM
I'm currently in the process of applying for my CCW in Orange County, and expect that, given the current political battle between the sheriff and the County Board of Directors, it will be delayed for a long time (and probably denied, of course -- but one can hope). In the interim, I'm interested in learning how to carry properly by practicing with an Airsoft gun in a holster -- it just so happens that I can get a perfect replica of my USP that even has almost the right weight and balance.

Now, as I read it, an Airsoft gun with an orange tip is still considered an "imitation firearm" by California law (per PC 12550 and PC 12556(d)(13)) and therefore falls under PC 12556(a) (open display of an imitation firearm is an infraction/misdemeanor) in the event that I were open carrying with it. However, from my reading of the PCs there does not seem to be any punishment for concealed carry with an imitation firearm, and in fact PC 12556(d)(1) includes a specific exemption when the imitation firearm is "[p]ackaged or concealed so that it is not subject to public viewing."

Can anyone find an obvious flaw with any of this? And beyond obvious flaws, can anyone point me to any relevant caselaw or even anecdotes about LE behavior in these kinds of situations? Presumptively, done correctly, no one would ever know I had the gun on me -- the whole point is to learn how to CCW properly without being "made" -- but in the event that a police officer or security guard saw me printing, I'd prefer not to be arrested on some technicality I didn't know existed.

DVSmith
02-02-2009, 11:21 AM
The obvious flaw is that you are doing something unexpected by law enforcement and quite frankly may jeopardize your ability to obtain a CCW at all.

I would strongly advise against it even if your analysis leads you to believe it is legal.

BONECUTTER
02-02-2009, 11:23 AM
If you don't get caught... You get charged with nothing.

If you get caught its probably because you were not dressed correctly got sloppy. If someone notices you could be charged wish brandishing.

Then guess what....a weapons charge while your are applying for a CCW. What do you thing the odds will be you will get it?????

Get a UTAH CCW....practice out of state in another where they are more forgiving.

Glock22Fan
02-02-2009, 11:39 AM
Sounds like a bad idea to me. Get a Utah permit, as Bonecutter suggests, and take a trip to Nevada to get real outdoor concealed carry experience, and always carry your real USP concealed at home.

Keep the airsoft for fun in the yard or playground.

Knight
02-02-2009, 11:53 AM
I'd suggest practicing CCW in your home over carrying an airsoft gun concealed out in public.

Cypren
02-02-2009, 12:13 PM
Thanks for the responses. That's about what I expected -- it may be legal, but the law doesn't really matter much to "law enforcement" these days, so it's playing with fire.

Fate
02-02-2009, 12:32 PM
And don't forget the classic adage: "Never bring a toy to a gunfight." ;)

dustoff31
02-02-2009, 12:56 PM
Thanks for the responses. That's about what I expected -- it may be legal, but the law doesn't really matter much to "law enforcement" these days, so it's playing with fire.

I think most LEO's would view carrying around a toy gun a question of judgement rather than legality.

Turbinator
02-02-2009, 1:27 PM
I'd suggest practicing CCW in your home over carrying an airsoft gun concealed out in public.

This is the best advice. I would suggest CCW'ing at home, particularly when guests are over. See if you can get through an entire day or evening without having anyone become aware of what you are doing. That would be a good test for you.

Turby

ZirconJohn
02-02-2009, 1:42 PM
Yup, I concur with all the above... not a good idea.

Hope you get your CCW Permit.

Legal conceal carry a firearm will change you in the following way; you will become more polite:angel:

Now why wouldn't the Sate of California want more polite citizens (?):shrug:(?)

Seesm
02-02-2009, 2:55 PM
Should be legal for all "law abiding" citizens anyway...

Carrying a air soft is a bad idea...

ZRX61
02-02-2009, 5:00 PM
However, from my reading of the PCs there does not seem to be any punishment for concealed carry with an imitation firearm, and in fact PC 12556(d)(1) includes a specific exemption when the imitation firearm is "[p]ackaged or concealed so that it is not subject to public viewing."

If it was an offense to CCW a toy gun the cops would be lined up outside ToysRus arresting parents for about 6 weeks before christmas for all the toy guns concealed inside shopping bags.....

Max-the-Silent
02-02-2009, 5:39 PM
I'm currently in the process of applying for my CCW in Orange County, and expect that, given the current political battle between the sheriff and the County Board of Directors, it will be delayed for a long time (and probably denied, of course -- but one can hope). In the interim, I'm interested in learning how to carry properly by practicing with an Airsoft gun in a holster -- it just so happens that I can get a perfect replica of my USP that even has almost the right weight and balance.

Now, as I read it, an Airsoft gun with an orange tip is still considered an "imitation firearm" by California law (per PC 12550 and PC 12556(d)(13)) and therefore falls under PC 12556(a) (open display of an imitation firearm is an infraction/misdemeanor) in the event that I were open carrying with it. However, from my reading of the PCs there does not seem to be any punishment for concealed carry with an imitation firearm, and in fact PC 12556(d)(1) includes a specific exemption when the imitation firearm is "[p]ackaged or concealed so that it is not subject to public viewing."

Can anyone find an obvious flaw with any of this? And beyond obvious flaws, can anyone point me to any relevant caselaw or even anecdotes about LE behavior in these kinds of situations? Presumptively, done correctly, no one would ever know I had the gun on me -- the whole point is to learn how to CCW properly without being "made" -- but in the event that a police officer or security guard saw me printing, I'd prefer not to be arrested on some technicality I didn't know existed.

I'm sure that there are worse ideas out there, but I can't think of one.

How about getting some professional instruction and range time? that would be a better investment of your time and energy.

The only thing that carrying a "toy" gun will get you is unwanted attention and a reputation as a goof ball.

N6ATF
02-02-2009, 8:29 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but get and use a blue gun USP (http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum3830.php).

Since cops use blue guns in training, there should be little chance of ever being falsely arrested for having one.

E Pluribus Unum
02-03-2009, 10:18 AM
In some jurisdictions, carrying a "replica gun" is illegal. Back in 87 there was a news reporter that was held hostage on the air by what was later determined to be a fake gun. As such, many municipalities outlawed their open carry.

Cypren
02-03-2009, 12:08 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but get and use a blue gun USP (http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum3830.php).

Since cops use blue guns in training, there should be little chance of ever being falsely arrested for having one.

That's a pretty good idea. I was also thinking originally of just spraypainting the Airsoft gun bright orange all over -- it's not like I need the thing to look real, just to be the right size and weigh the same -- so that it falls extremely clearly under the provisions of 12556(d)(13) and can't in any way be mistaken for a real gun. I've also never even considered carrying in someplace where real firearms would be regulated or cause me significant trouble -- bars, nightclubs, at my day job, etc. I fully expect that I'm new at this and that I will make mistakes and someone will notice a suspicious bulge or whatnot. I'd prefer that they find out it's just a non-functional practice gun than that it's real and that I don't know how to conceal it.

By the way, special thanks to the poster who snarkily suggested I should get "some professional instruction and range time" -- gee, I never thought of that. :rolleyes: The point here is to learn how to adjust my movements, body language and habits over the course of the day, not to learn how to draw and fire the weapon. Please respect that we're all (presumably, at least) adults here and that most of us with enough of an interest to seriously consider carrying legally aren't hyped-up Hollywood-dazzled kids who just think carrying a gun is "cool" and want to seem tough.

That said, I think the early posters who suggested that it's just a bad idea to risk being detained on anything weapons-related while applying for a CCW had it exactly right. Even if I didn't get arrested, simply being stopped and questioned by a LEO could result in an incident report that a sheriff's investigator would come across while backgrounding me for the permit.

RomanDad
02-03-2009, 1:42 PM
Seriously.... This is a REALLY bad idea.

DDT
02-03-2009, 1:59 PM
Should I bring a steering wheel on the bus and CalTrain to practice my driving before I get my license?

sorensen440
02-03-2009, 2:01 PM
Should I bring a steering wheel on the bus and CalTrain to practice my driving before I get my license?
No but it would be a good idea to get some behind the wheel practice ;)

nhanson
02-03-2009, 2:05 PM
Get a UTAH CCW....practice out of state in another where they are more forgiving.

Yup yup!
Nevada and Arizona both recognized non-resident utah licences.

Black Majik
02-03-2009, 2:08 PM
I wish you luck in the process. Honestly, just "wing it."

Someone mentioned carrying and adjusting at home. That is seriously the best idea. Get comfortable so you don't end up with the "new ccw, nervous twitch" syndrome. You know, pulling down your cover, doing a body check as you walk past a mirror, or pat on your sidearm.

That's why, I recommend just winging it... cuz you'll probably end up doing it anyways. Just make sure you holster/belt/magazine pouch combo goes along with your dress code. Dress around your gun, and definitely try IWB.

As a side note, a USP is a VERY large handgun to carry. Unless you're "big" or wear baggy clothes, you will print with just a t-shirt on. Hawaii shirts or dark patterned shirts will help break up the outline, but I'd urge at least to look into a USP compact or P2000.

Anyways good luck, wear good gear, and remmeber that no one is paying attention to your wasteline, so dont worry about the printing "too much." You give it away much faster by touching/checking it than by simply printing.

Cypren
02-03-2009, 2:14 PM
Anyways good luck, wear good gear, and remmeber that no one is paying attention to your wasteline, so dont worry about the printing "too much." You give it away much faster by touching/checking it than by simply printing.

Thanks, that's all great advice. The specific weapon I own at the moment is a USP9, and yes, it's a pretty sizable gun for CCW. In the event that I got issued the permit I would probably pick up a USP40C and register it with the OCSD to add it to the CCW. However, I stand 6'3 and often dress in a suit, which means that my CCW options are quite a bit broader than the average person who needs to hide the weapon under a single layer of clothing without a jacket.