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dfletcher
01-31-2009, 8:03 PM
For the sake of discussion, let's say in an otherwise 100% legal on line transaction (CA resident/FFL's customer buying) an out of state seller sends to a CA FFL dealer a semi auto handgun or rifle that contains hi cap mags. Although the CA buyer has said "don't send them" and immediately upon receipt let's say the CA FFL destroys them - have either the CA FFL dealer or the CA resident who initiated the transfer broken CA law?

To ensure the CA FFL and CA resident are given every advantage, let's say the out of state seller is an individual who doesn't have to use the CFLC and had no contact with the CA FFL and the seller would affirm that the CA buyer said "no hi caps please".

If a CA FFL accidentally receives a hi cap on an out of state transfer is there a procedure to follow to destroy or account for?

Holocanthus
01-31-2009, 8:33 PM
Destroying them was probably overkill. Most FFL's are allowed to receive and sell hi-cap mags because of a hi-cap permit that they can apply for, provided that the purchaser is legally allowed to buy the mag (LEO, FFL's with hi-cap permits, armored car company, etc). I would have wanted the FFL to have shipped the mags back to the seller for 10 rounders, or have the FFL accept the mags from you instead of charging you a fee for the transfer, or have the FFL hold them until you could find a legal buyer for them. While it would be illegal for you to possess, it is still your property. I find it to be an interesting legal conundrum.

If the FFL doesn't have a hi-cap permit, then he probably did the right thing. As there was no intent to import, then no crime was technically committed. But don't consider this legal advise as I'm not a lawyer.

halifax
01-31-2009, 8:37 PM
deleted

Holocanthus
01-31-2009, 8:41 PM
Should have posted it anyways since you spent the time to type it.

DedEye
01-31-2009, 8:54 PM
Destroying them was probably overkill. Most FFL's are allowed to receive and sell hi-cap mags because of a hi-cap permit that they can apply for, provided that the purchaser is legally allowed to buy the mag (LEO, FFL's with hi-cap permits, armored car company, etc). I would have wanted the FFL to have shipped the mags back to the seller for 10 rounders, or have the FFL accept the mags from you instead of charging you a fee for the transfer, or have the FFL hold them until you could find a legal buyer for them.

FFLs aren't required to have a hicap permit to sell them, but to import mags.

As far as the penal code is concerned, anyone is allowed to buy hi-caps. This is not advice to try and buy them. The problem is doing so legally requires a seller who is legally able to sell them, which is far trickier.

Since the question has to do with magazines coming in from out of state, the definition of importation is quite important and relevant.

Neither here nor there, but you also don't need an FFL to apply for a hi-cap mag permit.

While it would be illegal for you to possess, it is still your property.

Not illegal for you to possess, but almost certainly illegal for you to take possession of unless the FFL acted as an intermediary. Even then, it's a touchy subject and not settled law. VERY not recommended.

If the FFL doesn't have a hi-cap permit, then he probably did the right thing. As there was no intent to import, then no crime was technically committed. But don't consider this legal advise as I'm not a lawyer.

The FFL probably did the right thing, though returning the hi-caps may have been just as defensible. According to some DOJ employees, FFLs have a week to return illegal items to their out of state senders. I'd want that in writing (and NOT FROM ME) before I relied on it though.

Holocanthus
01-31-2009, 9:25 PM
Not illegal for you to possess,

Meant to say illegal to take new possession, putting aside pre-2000 purchases and re-builds.

series8217
01-31-2009, 11:58 PM
Meant to say illegal to take new possession, putting aside pre-2000 purchases and re-builds.

As I understand it, it's not illegal to take possession; it would be illegal because you would be importing them. Buying/possessing/taking possession of large-capacity magazines is not illegal. Selling, importing, and constructing them is illegal, without special permits.
If you buy a large-capacity magazine from a vendor in the state of California, the vendor would be breaking the law, not you. If the vendor is out of state, you are an importer of a large-capacity magazine and thus are breaking the law, unless they have a high capacity magazine permit.

EDIT: Fixed

DedEye
02-01-2009, 12:15 AM
As I understand it, it's not illegal to take possession; it would be illegal because you would be importing them. Buying/possessing/taking possession of large-capacity magazines is not illegal. Selling, importing, and constructing them is illegal, without special permits.
If you buy a large-capacity magazine from a vendor in the state of California, the vendor would be breaking the law, not you. If the vendor is out of state, you are an importer of a large-capacity magazine and thus are breaking the law.

Not necessarily.

CSACANNONEER
02-01-2009, 7:06 AM
The FFL (assuming he has a high cap mag permit to legaly recieve them) could simply take them apart. Right?

DedEye
02-01-2009, 8:07 AM
The FFL (assuming he has a high cap mag permit to legaly recieve them) could simply take them apart. Right?

Correct.

eltee
02-01-2009, 11:59 AM
The High Cap Magazine permit actually grants permission to an FFL in California to"...engage in the lawful importation and exportation of large capacity magazines..."

I assume that is legalese to mean receive and ship, perhaps stock and sell. Can never be sure when you're dealing with California lawmakers.

DedEye
02-01-2009, 12:44 PM
The High Cap Magazine permit actually grants permission to an FFL in California to"...engage in the lawful importation and exportation of large capacity magazines..."

I assume that is legalese to mean receive and ship, perhaps stock and sell. Can never be sure when you're dealing with California lawmakers.

Read PC12020(c) again, specifically as it pertains to those licensed according to PC12071 and 12079.

To paraphrase:

PC12020 (c)26:
A person or business with a permit to import and export hicap mags may legally import them. There is no requirement that said business hold an FFL.

PC12020 (c)21:
A person or business with an FFL licensed according to PC12071 may buy or sell hicap mags, but may not import or export them.

I still don't see a requirement anywhere in PC12020, 12071 or 12079 that an FFL have a special permit in order to sell large capacity magazines.