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CHS
01-31-2009, 5:53 PM
So, J&J Armory has an 07 and is now "manufacturing" AR rifles. I tried to ask all the questions that I would imagine anyone who's into AR's would want to know from a new manufacturer, but instead of actually answering the questions I'm being told that I'm "rude and out of line"

I can't imagine that these same questions were never asked of them at the SHOT show, so I'm confused.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=144040

Start reading around post 19. Another member asked similar questions, of which they only answered about half of them.

So, am I really being rude and out of line? I don't believe I am. If I called up Noveske and asked the same questions I'm pretty sure they would answer every single one.

sorensen440
01-31-2009, 5:58 PM
I don't see that you were out of line at all.
I suspect you would get better answers if the person posting knew the answers but it sounds like they dont.

technique
01-31-2009, 5:59 PM
All the answers to most of your questions were answered at the shot show..I'm sure when the product actually hit the market...we will have all the answers.:D

Linus
01-31-2009, 6:06 PM
I don't see that you were out of line at all.
I suspect you would get better answers if the person posting knew the answers but it sounds like they dont.

+1 I read the entire thread and was surprised of the way J&J responded.:confused:

CSACANNONEER
01-31-2009, 6:11 PM
Although you were a little on the offensive when asking them to justify the price of their light, their response was not very professional. Instead, it was rude and they have some damage control to do before I would ever think of doing bussiness with them. Oh well, I'm sure they don't need my money or want my opinion anyway. Too bad, I like the idea of local manufacturers. Hell, I could have bought one of their guns and topped it with a custom USO for a nice 100% California built rifle-scope combo.

caduckgunner
01-31-2009, 6:19 PM
All the answers to most of your questions were answered at the shot show..I'm sure when the product actually hit the market...we will have all the answers.:D

If they were answered at SHOT, then why can't they be answered on calguns?

technique
01-31-2009, 6:21 PM
If they were answered at SHOT, then why can't they be answered on calguns?

ask J&J...I have no idea.

Saigon1965
01-31-2009, 6:24 PM
Tech - You're no help here -

nick
01-31-2009, 6:30 PM
Interesting responses. I wonder what's up with that.

762cavalier
01-31-2009, 6:46 PM
I didn't think you were rude at all. You were asking questions about a new product that anyone who is spending that much on a rifle would like to know.

J&J's answers were, however, somewhat rude and not at all informative. Not a great start.:confused:

DedEye
01-31-2009, 6:52 PM
Asked in that thread as well.

Bongos
01-31-2009, 7:13 PM
Well some companies do not want you to know what their actual profit margin, take AR OLL for instance, lots of famous names get their OLL from one mfg but have it privatly labeled to their name.. the quality is the same yet one OLL would be several hundred Dollars more than the other.. Same with barrels, etc.. I'm sure they have agreements with certain mfg for lower pricing, just like GA Precision has with Badger Ordinance.. their guns are in the $2.5K-$4K range, you think it actually cost +$300 for the BO bottom metal...notit doesn't... that said GA makes great rifles, as well as Texas Brigade, and others... the only sniper rifle company I know whom isn't secrative about his rifles is R & D Precision, that's because he wants/cares about the average guy who can't afford a $3K rifle, to be able to get the same proformance for a lot less. My first Sniper rifle was a Rem 700 PSS ($700) , Randy did the trueing, etc, next thing I know I was doing less than minute of angle at a hundred yards just as good if not better than the guy next to me with a Styer SSG and GAP Rock... Granted the Rock had the BO gear, but not so much that it warrants the price. Now years later and a little more stable in the finances, I can afford a higher equiptment rifle.. actually i'm gunning for R&D's next gen rifle... which is coming in the next few month..

CHS
01-31-2009, 7:51 PM
Well some companies do not want you to know what their actual profit margin, take AR OLL for instance, lots of famous names get their OLL from one mfg but have it privatly labeled to their name.. the quality is the same yet one OLL would be several hundred Dollars more than the other.. Same with barrels, etc.. I'm sure they have agreements with certain mfg for lower pricing, just like GA Precision has with Badger Ordinance..

I don't think you read the original thread. Nothing that you've said here really applies to the questions asked.

If I have someone build me a $6K bolt-action rifle, they will tell me the name of the manufacturer of the barrel blanks, the action used, etc.

Randall (ar15barrels) is a perfect example. If I have him build me an upper and happen to ask who machined the upper and who's barrel blank he's using, he will tell me. I'm paying partly for the name/quality of the parts, and partly for the expertise in assembling them.

Now, with the J&J rifles I have no idea what name/quality I'm paying for. I also don't know of the expertise involved in the assembly. That part, I can judge for myself. The first part, well they haven't answered hardly any questions, so who knows? And why would I make the trip to see and judge the expertise of the manufacturing if they can't answer the simple questions that most manufacturers happily ADVERTISE? :)

Hell, I just checked model1sales website (considered one of the lowest-end AR manufacturers) and they even advertise who's barrels they use.

nagorb
01-31-2009, 7:56 PM
nothing wrong with your post, many things wrong with j&j's.

THE 0NE
01-31-2009, 7:59 PM
If they were answered at SHOT, then why can't they be answered on calguns?

not everyone is on calguns every waking min of the day give the guys some slack i dont see any of you guys getting an 07 and starting a business...

MikeR
01-31-2009, 8:04 PM
Wow, after reading that i wouldn't buy anything from them. Maybe he's on his man period? Send them a bottle of Midol and ask again in a week.

DedEye
01-31-2009, 8:07 PM
not everyone is on calguns every waking min of the day give the guys some slack i dont see any of you guys getting an 07 and starting a business...

Then you aren't paying attention :rolleyes:.

THE 0NE
01-31-2009, 8:10 PM
Then you aren't paying attention :rolleyes:.

oh is that it!!!

technique
01-31-2009, 8:14 PM
Then you aren't paying attention :rolleyes:.

that was brilliant...:confused::rolleyes:

DedEye
01-31-2009, 8:15 PM
that was brilliant...:confused::rolleyes:

Do you guys really need me to list the number of members who have or are in the process of getting their FFLs?

The One's comment was "i dont see any of you guys getting an 07 and starting a business..." Plenty have, and plenty are. The whole "I don't see you doing anything better" card is so overplayed.

THE 0NE
01-31-2009, 8:24 PM
Do you guys really need me to list the number of members who have or are in the process of getting their FFLs?

The One's comment was "i dont see any of you guys getting an 07 and starting a business..." Plenty have, and plenty are. The whole "I don't see you doing anything better" card is so overplayed.

well i havent seen many new shops pop up and props to the other shops that have and sir i have done more than you will really ever know...

technique
01-31-2009, 8:25 PM
Do you guys really need me to list the number of members who have or are in the process of getting their FFLs?

I don't give a flying you know what about who has what...

The One's comment was "i dont see any of you guys getting an 07 and starting a business..." Plenty have, and plenty are. The whole "I don't see you doing anything better" card is so overplayed.

and what have you added to this thread other that smart *** comments...?? NOTHING.

As a matter of fact, you quick to comment about another vendor..yet I seem to remember a thread bashing your business, and you sure weren't quick to answer jack about that!!!!


I have met the J&J guys several times. They have always been good about answering questions politely. Their rifles are awesome once the rest of you put your hands on em...you'll be whistling a whole nother tune....

Carnitas time...I'm outta here!!!

UncleJohnny
01-31-2009, 8:29 PM
Ive shopped at j&j, had no problems with the people there, and they were'nt rude to anyone either. But the responses from them on your other post thread is rediculous. It sounded like they were offended for you asking and they actually had a rude come off, not you. Whats the deal with that? I would think they would be more professional about it. It sounds fishy when people avoid specific questions about their product......:toetap05: Although the lowers look well built, and the accessories/trigger assembly are top notch, I would also like to know who makes the barrel, lower and upper. Actually dont care about the lower/upper make, but the barrel/bolt/bcg, yes.

UncleJohnny
01-31-2009, 8:42 PM
Im not posting anymore with threads like this

DedEye
01-31-2009, 8:43 PM
and what have you added to this thread other that smart *** comments...?? NOTHING.

As a matter of fact, you quick to comment about another vendor..yet I seem to remember a thread bashing your business, and you sure weren't quick to answer jack about that!!!!

Have you noticed a difference in my sigline? Something missing perhaps? Perhaps an affiliation that no longer exists? Perhaps that may have some bearing on my slow response time in that thread?

I have met the J&J guys several times. They have always been good about answering questions politely. Their rifles are awesome once the rest of you put your hands on em...you'll be whistling a whole nother tune....

I saw them at SHOT. The guys from J&J were very friendly and cool to talk to, and the rifles looked neat. I DID put my hands on those rifles. I still would like the other poster's questions answered.

Carnitas time...I'm outta here!!!

I'm jealous, I want Carnitas :(.

well i havent seen many new shops pop up and props to the other shops that have and sir i have done more than you will really ever know...

Not trying to say you haven't, my point is that the "don't stand by the sidelines and criticize" comment doesn't carry a lot of weight here.

foxtrotuniformlima
01-31-2009, 8:45 PM
bdsmchs,

I read the other post and did not see anything wrong with the questions you asked. I did not see them as rude.

If you are going to ask for that kind of money, you had better be able to justify it and with the AR platform, unless you have an incredible reputation, like JP Rifles, it will be very hard.

Detailed specs are the minimum they should be supplying.

What was his answer to the twist ratio question ? Right or left twist? - nothing -

Honestly, I would not buy anything from them if that was the response. But that is just me.

JeffM
01-31-2009, 8:53 PM
Do you guys really need me to list the number of members who have or are in the process of getting their FFLs?

The One's comment was "i dont see any of you guys getting an 07 and starting a business..." Plenty have, and plenty are. The whole "I don't see you doing anything better" card is so overplayed.

+1

PRK Arms is a perfect example of this.

FUDUPWBS got sick and tired of going all over the state trying to find an FFL that would receive and transfer perfectly legal firearms in this state. He got his own FFL and is now bringing in very unique guns to the CA marketplace.

DedEye and bunch of forum members (including myself) helped FEDUPWBS, TheDrickle work the table at their first gunshow back in December.

The CA shooting community is the most tight knit group of firearm enthusiasts I have ever seen or heard of.

I for one want CA FFLs and manufacturers to succeed and thrive and innovate and spawn new interest in shooting and gun ownership. I can imagine that many more Calgunners share that sentiment.

But there are some people that just don't have the business sense to make it all come together. You need more than a profitable product to make a business work. You need customer support and the savvy to actually make the sales. It doesn't look like J&J has any of it (well they may have the product, but won't give the details for us to make the decision).

technique
01-31-2009, 9:07 PM
I'm jealous, I want Carnitas :(.


Carnitas were good and we got 32oz Corona negro...ooohhhhh.

No biggy dedeye.

My opinion of these J&J rifles is this....They are gonna sell all on their own. between THE 0NE and I, we should have 8 coming in this week 4 .308 and 4 5.56 for our own personal uses.

The J&J guys are cool. I lack internet communication skills and it seems they do too...maybe I feel for them.

DedEye
01-31-2009, 9:10 PM
Carnitas were good and we got 32oz Corona negro...ooohhhhh.

No biggy dedeye.

My opinion of these J&J rifles is this....They are gonna sell all on their own. between THE 0NE and I, we should have 8 coming in this week 4 .308 and 4 5.56 for our own personal uses.

The J&J guys are cool. I lack internet communication skills and it seems they do too...maybe I feel for them.

Don't let my questioning make me appear unsympathetic, I obviously know how difficult it is to respond to questions here and in general. I'd just have... taken a different approach to those questions.

supermario
01-31-2009, 9:17 PM
:oI picked up a RRA LPK recently and they were cool to me. I dont know all the vendors as much as you guys, but i say just give em a break, if they were rude, im sure they learned there lesson now! We california gun owners gotta stick together, especially the ones that sell OLL. I was at Martin B retting month ago and i heard oen of their workers telling a customer that Saigas were illegal in California, so i told them, many gunshops sell them,, he said just becus they sell them that doesnt mean their legal. Anyways i just laughed and walked away, i didnt want to start arguing and smack his stupid face. Anyways, Point is, we got worse things to worry about like gunshops that spread rumors like that.. Give J&J a break, if they appear to be rude in future, then dont shop there anymore. Thats just my opinion. I have heard bad things about a mechanic i use, and he is super great to me.. Maybe sometimes people have a bad day and take it out on wrong people

Capt. Speirs
01-31-2009, 9:17 PM
I thought at one point I would Give J and J another chance after my ordeal with them, very rude and insulting, but not going to happen. Seems to me this is their modus operandi.

THE 0NE
01-31-2009, 9:18 PM
http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/THE0NE-GOD/Picture058.jpg

cheers dedeye:cheers2:

DedEye
01-31-2009, 9:28 PM
http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/THE0NE-GOD/Picture058.jpg

cheers dedeye:cheers2:

Back at ya :cheers2: :43:

http://www.businessshrink.biz/psychologyofbusiness/images/jenkembottle.jpg

JeffM
01-31-2009, 9:32 PM
:oI picked up a RRA LPK recently and they were cool to me. I dont know all the vendors as much as you guys, but i say just give em a break, if they were rude, im sure they learned there lesson now! We california gun owners gotta stick together, especially the ones that sell OLL. I was at Martin B retting month ago and i heard oen of their workers telling a customer that Saigas were illegal in California, so i told them, many gunshops sell them,, he said just becus they sell them that doesnt mean their legal. Anyways i just laughed and walked away, i didnt want to start arguing and smack his stupid face. Anyways, Point is, we got worse things to worry about like gunshops that spread rumors like that.. Give J&J a break, if they appear to be rude in future, then dont shop there anymore. Thats just my opinion. I have heard bad things about a mechanic i use, and he is super great to me.. Maybe sometimes people have a bad day and take it out on wrong people

If they want a break or learned their lesson, they should apologize and answer the basic and reasonable questions that were asks.

IMHO if they aren't willing to state the source of the barrels, or whether they MPI them, or even know the twist rates, then they have no business selling guns.

Toolfreak66
01-31-2009, 9:33 PM
I delt with a couple people a while back at J&J and was very unimpressed. This was before the election. I went to their old shop (I heard they have moved) and was asking with them about some ar15 products. They were very rude and seemed more interested in looking up stuff on the internet than selling me anything. I had about $2500 to spend that day in cash and walked out empty handed. They had plenty of stock on the wall, but in my mind they could keep it.

caduckgunner
01-31-2009, 9:41 PM
not everyone is on calguns every waking min of the day give the guys some slack i dont see any of you guys getting an 07 and starting a business...

Well since they have bumper there add numerous times since the questions were asked, they obviously read them :rolleyes:

DB2
01-31-2009, 9:46 PM
They can have the worst day ever, I don't care. But if J&J trying to sell a $3000 rifle that they built, you'd think that J&J would be more forthcoming with specifics.

RedDawn
01-31-2009, 9:49 PM
Addressing legitimate customer inquiries and concerns is part of ANY business. If they're not prepared to answer questions, I suggest they go into politics instead.

RedDawn
01-31-2009, 9:52 PM
Who drops $3000.00 without asking questions and expecting those questions answered?

They can have the worst day ever, I don't care. But if your trying to sell a $3000 rifle, you'd think that they would be very forthcoming with specifics.

50CalAL
01-31-2009, 9:56 PM
I have not had any dealings with J&J but I don't think mdsmchs's questions were not out of line. If you're looking to buy a $3K rifle (or anything for that matter) J&J should be able to provide those answers.

mxpatriot51
01-31-2009, 9:58 PM
If he won't even answer questions about who's making his barrel blanks or what hand twist they are, how is going to handle the question that is on all of our minds..."how is this better than a Larue, Noveske, POF, or Addax rifle for the same or less amount of money?"

Mark One
01-31-2009, 9:59 PM
I bought my Lower from J&J about 6 months ago... I think... Maybe less...

Anyways they were really nice to me and answered all the questions I had. I've been there 3 or 4 time now and ever time they were nice and helpful. They even helped with a LPK issue and gave me a detent and spring for free after mine shot out and fell in the back hole somewhere in my room.

kermit315
01-31-2009, 10:03 PM
I agree. J & J were out of line. simple questions being asked, and got nothing in return.

supermario
01-31-2009, 10:06 PM
yeah i suppose you guys are right! Well i usually shop with ammo bros and cold war, between Dustin at ammo bros and hector at cws, i really dont buy from anybody else becus those guys have been great to me from the beginning.. Their customer service to me, has been excellent.. I take all my friends and family there.. I only bought a lpk at j&j but a Gun is a big difference. I almost wanted to stop shopping at turners but there damm deals are too good to pass up sometimes.

THE 0NE
01-31-2009, 10:13 PM
If he won't even answer questions about who's making his barrel blanks or what hand twist they are, how is going to handle the question that is on all of our minds..."how is this better than a Larue, Noveske, POF, or Addax rifle for the same or less amount of money?"

they are noveske barrels, the upper and lower are made out of one solid piece of alum all have a really nice fit they are not hodge podge upper and lower you do not get any play when mated together like other company's. you can call them and the will custom fit any rails, barrel length, stock ect that you want. and to only wait 45 to 60 days for a custom rifle is damn good for service. all they are trying to do is show and tell you that you a can contact them with a style rifle you want and get an exact quote. maybe the person who posted what they are offering was the gril at the front desk and she does not know the details at the moment. if you want quality built rifle call them and talk to them. i have spoke to the owner and he was more than happy to answer all my questions and i bet he would do the same or wait till they get the details on their web site like they said would be up shortly. we all know how busy gun shops are and manufactures are right now so kick back and give them sometime to get everything together..

Capt. Speirs
01-31-2009, 10:24 PM
they are noveske barrels, the upper and lower are made out of one solid piece of alum all have a really nice fit they are not hodge podge upper and lower you do not get any play when mated together like other company's. you can call them and the will custom fit any rails, barrel length, stock ect that you want. and to only wait 45 to 60 days for a custom rifle is damn good for service. all they are trying to do is show and tell you that you a can contact them with a style rifle you want and get an exact quote. maybe the person who posted what they are offering was the gril at the front desk and she does not know the details at the moment. if you want quality built rifle call them and talk to them. i have spoke to the owner and he was more than happy to answer all my questions and i bet he would do the same or wait till they get the details on their web site like they said would be up shortly. we all know how busy gun shops are and manufactures are right now so kick back and give them sometime to get everything together..

It is one thing, not to answer questions, quite another to be rude!

smokingloon
01-31-2009, 10:25 PM
they are noveske barrels, the upper and lower are made out of one solid piece of alum all have a really nice fit they are not hodge podge upper and lower you do not get any play when mated together like other company's. you can call them and the will custom fit any rails, barrel length, stock ect that you want. and to only wait 45 to 60 days for a custom rifle is damn good for service. all they are trying to do is show and tell you that you a can contact them with a style rifle you want and get an exact quote. maybe the person who posted what they are offering was the gril at the front desk and she does not know the details at the moment. if you want quality built rifle call them and talk to them. i have spoke to the owner and he was more than happy to answer all my questions and i bet he would do the same or wait till they get the details on their web site like they said would be up shortly. we all know how busy gun shops are and manufactures are right now so kick back and give them sometime to get everything together..

Was her name Gina? If so, she has failed to return several phone calls.

Capt. Speirs
01-31-2009, 10:27 PM
Was her name Gina? If so, she has failed to return several phone calls.

Gina is very nice and is very busy, just be patient.

kermit315
01-31-2009, 10:38 PM
they are noveske barrels, the upper and lower are made out of one solid piece of alum all have a really nice fit they are not hodge podge upper and lower you do not get any play when mated together like other company's. you can call them and the will custom fit any rails, barrel length, stock ect that you want. and to only wait 45 to 60 days for a custom rifle is damn good for service. all they are trying to do is show and tell you that you a can contact them with a style rifle you want and get an exact quote. maybe the person who posted what they are offering was the gril at the front desk and she does not know the details at the moment. if you want quality built rifle call them and talk to them. i have spoke to the owner and he was more than happy to answer all my questions and i bet he would do the same or wait till they get the details on their web site like they said would be up shortly. we all know how busy gun shops are and manufactures are right now so kick back and give them sometime to get everything together..


If they come on here advertising their guns, they should be prepared to answer the questions about them that pop up. If that person needs more time to research, fine, but say that. If they just dont know, that is a major problem. These questions are out of left field, they seem like pretty standard questions.

technique
01-31-2009, 10:51 PM
If they come on here advertising their guns, they should be prepared to answer the questions about them that pop up. If that person needs more time to research, fine, but say that. If they just dont know, that is a major problem. These questions are out of left field, they seem like pretty standard questions.

I agree with you...I already had all questions answered by them so again I can't complain. But...The product hasn't even hit their website yet...I think they were just giving us an exclusive that has now bitten them in the...well you know.

I don't think they were prepared to answer all the questions..from what I gathered they pretty much are willing to put what the customer wants as far as barrels, rails, lights..you know all that stuff. So there is no standard for what twist rate, what barrel...the only thing that was mentioned is that like THE 0NE said, The uppers and lowers come from the same block and they stay together so the customer gets the best fit. That is what they mfg.

However most of you feel they were rude, and there is no excuse for rudeness.

oaklander
01-31-2009, 11:01 PM
I do marketing for a living (when I'm not being a lawyer), and you *have* to be transparent and clear with your customers.

Those were simple questions, and it would have been real easy to answer them.

hellraiser
01-31-2009, 11:03 PM
i ran into these guys at a show.... seemed cool but that thread was crazy...i admit it was a real page turner:rofl2:
i will never buy a thing from them....

ZRX61
01-31-2009, 11:07 PM
I only got as far as "priportery".....

freonr22
01-31-2009, 11:12 PM
I do marketing for a living (when I'm not being a lawyer), and you *have* to be transparent and clear with your customers.

Those were simple questions, and it would have been real easy to answer them.

Old 01-31-2009, 11:02 PM
freonr22
Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 183

really guys/gals, all that has to happen is have them produce a brochure on word/publisher/ web etc, that lists the components/specs, its done with EVERY industry, from spark plugs, to lawn mowers to GUNS. if they cant post that, then they must be from CHINA or they would have taken the time (1 hour) to answer/make a brochure like a real company would have and be legit. I have never seen their product/or know any one who has, i have no beef with them, its just business, get off your high horse, and make a brochure w/ specs or get out

sorensen440
01-31-2009, 11:16 PM
Well since they have bumper there add numerous times since the questions were asked, they obviously read them :rolleyes:
I also sent them a pm with a link to this thread shortly after it was put up

ke6guj
01-31-2009, 11:26 PM
the upper and lower are made out of one solid piece of alum all have a really nice fit they are not hodge podge upper and lower you do not get any play when mated together like other company's.still trying to figure out how you can make the upper and lower out of one piece of aluminum and have the original cut parting the piece in half be the mating surface. Since the upper has to have lugs (unless you weld on lugs), the mating surface of the upper is gonna have to be machined in around .5" away from the intial cut. So, at that point, being both pieces made from a single peice of aluminum doesn't mean anything special.

And if they are custom fit together to have a nice fit, is it still within specs so any other upper will swap in that lower, or will that upper fit any other lower?

freonr22
01-31-2009, 11:33 PM
imho for the last 25 years no 30 there are ALWAYS variances from batch 2 batch and really is it more than alcoa? really maybe 1 more? doesnt every one just put their name on???

maybe im wrong

JeffM
01-31-2009, 11:50 PM
Calguns, I took the time to read all your threads. Some things I will never post on this site. If your are interested in my product. Come down and ask your questions. I will not give you certain info about my product on this site for legitimate reason.

Your questions 1911 were answered to the best of what I am willing to post on this site. When you call Noveske did they tell you where they get their lowers? NO. When you call anyone do they tell you whos forgings they use.

My barrells are some of the best quality you can find. Everyone knows what i use in my 5.56. The person making the 308 has asked please dont share the info with the public at this current moment.

Troy industries gave us the 308 rail 3 weeks before shot show. Asked us not to show or advertise it period. Why? Because it wasnt avaiable yet. We would recomend you wait untill SHOT. So some of the information that is not answered is for a specific reason.

You want to come in my store and see product. Ask questions. See the light. I would appreciate at. But for those of you to slam a business and tell stories of all the times you went to J&J and got bad service is not true. If you got bad service it was from the GUYS that no longer work for us. Casual Observer, used to work for us like he said in his eairler post. Ever since him and the rest of the people left this past year, my productivity went up, product got sold at the correct price, people come to work on time, there has been more money in the bank than ever. We were able to manufacture rifles. Causal was at SHOT hes saw the lights, and was even asking questions. He even took pictures of my rifles at SHOT with out permission. The guys that were casualy searching the internet while customers shopped, no longer work for J&J.

Please feel free to come in and ask questions. I will not post certain info about my products. But I would also ask if you would please read the posts before replying about things that your not too sure about.

You very well could have posted this the first time and taken care of much of the drama.

It was your attitude earlier that dug the grave, and it's your attitude right now that's putting nails in the coffin.

offrdmania
02-01-2009, 12:17 AM
Calguns, I took the time to read all your threads. Some things I will never post on this site. If your are interested in my product. Come down and ask your questions. I will not give you certain info about my product on this site for legitimate reason.

Your questions 1911 were answered to the best of what I am willing to post on this site. When you call Noveske did they tell you where they get their lowers? NO. When you call anyone do they tell you whos forgings they use.

My barrells are some of the best quality you can find. Everyone knows what i use in my 5.56. The person making the 308 has asked please dont share the info with the public at this current moment.

Troy industries gave us the 308 rail 3 weeks before shot show. Asked us not to show or advertise it period. Why? Because it wasnt avaiable yet. We would recomend you wait untill SHOT. So some of the information that is not answered is for a specific reason.

You want to come in my store and see product. Ask questions. See the light. I would appreciate at. But for those of you to slam a business and tell stories of all the times you went to J&J and got bad service is not true. If you got bad service it was from the GUYS that no longer work for us. Casual Observer, used to work for us like he said in his eairler post. Ever since him and the rest of the people left this past year, my productivity went up, product got sold at the correct price, people come to work on time, there has been more money in the bank than ever. We were able to manufacture rifles. Causal was at SHOT hes saw the lights, and was even asking questions. He even took pictures of my rifles at SHOT with out permission. The guys that were casualy searching the internet while customers shopped, no longer work for J&J.

Please feel free to come in and ask questions. I will not post certain info about my products. But I would also ask if you would please read the posts before replying about things that your not too sure about.

Actually we do know who makes lowers for just about everyone out there. It isnt a secret. After reading how this guy conducts a conversation with his customers I now know that I will not be buying anything from J&J. I am in sales and attitude and relationships is how you get returning customers. The defensive is never a good direction to go when trying to gain new business.

pfl101
02-01-2009, 12:21 AM
I spoke with several people at J&J over the past month and they've been quite helpful to me. They were very helpful, although I was not enquiring about this particular issue. Hopefully things will change as they seem to be an overall good group.

freonr22
02-01-2009, 12:23 AM
Just to be clear I am not nor was my intent to attack or pick on j&J. my only reason for comments was general in form in any business, i sincerely hope there is no malice felt by them from me

DedEye
02-01-2009, 12:33 AM
Calguns, I took the time to read all your threads. Some things I will never post on this site. If your are interested in my product. Come down and ask your questions. I will not give you certain info about my product on this site for legitimate reason.

What reason? Telling us why is more likely to convince us than just saying you have "legitimate reasons" after the fact.

Your questions 1911 were answered to the best of what I am willing to post on this site. When you call Noveske did they tell you where they get their lowers? NO. When you call anyone do they tell you whos forgings they use.

Noveske lowers are made by CMT and another company I can't recall.

My barrells are some of the best quality you can find. Everyone knows what i use in my 5.56. The person making the 308 has asked please dont share the info with the public at this current moment.

Who do you use for your 5.56 barrels? I don't know? What's the harm in telling us? I'm satisfied with your answer about the .308 barrels, just wish you'd posted it before.

Troy industries gave us the 308 rail 3 weeks before shot show. Asked us not to show or advertise it period. Why? Because it wasnt avaiable yet. We would recomend you wait untill SHOT. So some of the information that is not answered is for a specific reason.

Saying "I can't say yet" or something to that effect works much better than no answer at all.

You want to come in my store and see product. Ask questions. See the light. I would appreciate at. But for those of you to slam a business and tell stories of all the times you went to J&J and got bad service is not true. If you got bad service it was from the GUYS that no longer work for us. Casual Observer, used to work for us like he said in his eairler post. Ever since him and the rest of the people left this past year, my productivity went up, product got sold at the correct price, people come to work on time, there has been more money in the bank than ever. We were able to manufacture rifles. Causal was at SHOT hes saw the lights, and was even asking questions. He even took pictures of my rifles at SHOT with out permission. The guys that were casualy searching the internet while customers shopped, no longer work for J&J.

Not the best business practice to air dirty laundry on the forum. Character assassination cuts both ways and the actions and deeds of both of you are visible to all members of this forum.

Please feel free to come in and ask questions. I will not post certain info about my products. But I would also ask if you would please read the posts before replying about things that your not too sure about.

Why not post the information? Anyone that comes in and asks the questions can, and probably will, bring that information back here and post it anyway.

recshooter
02-01-2009, 12:44 AM
1. Company advertises new AR on Calguns.
2. Members ask a lot of technical gun questions.
3. Cryptic reply posted by company.
4. Members are all WTF?
5. Company gets feelings hurt, and storms out.
7. ?????
8. Profit?

freonr22
02-01-2009, 12:48 AM
123
1. Company advertises new AR on Calguns.
2. Members ask a lot of Standardtechnical gun questions.
3. Cryptic reply posted by company.
4. Members are all WTF?Please tell us more mr. vendor, was what was asked
5. Company gets feelings hurt, and storms out.
7. ?????
8. Profit?

freonr22
02-01-2009, 1:00 AM
you are all over this...

Mssr. Eleganté
02-01-2009, 1:17 AM
I've read this whole thread and just have to say that I am shocked, shocked to find that a firearms vendor has such poor communication/customer relations skills. :rolleyes:

http://cdn.screenjunkies.com/www/sites/default/files/simpsons_comic_book_guy.jpg

recshooter
02-01-2009, 1:18 AM
I edited out that last part. I was a little pissed RJ decided to openly bash me and others who worked for him in the past. Please excuse that.

Don't worry about it.

That said way more about him than you.

Riflegear's service and professionalism has a very good rep here, for good reason--it is hard work (no bias).

Casual Observer
02-01-2009, 1:27 AM
Don't worry about it.

That said way more about him than you.

Riflegear's service and professionalism has a very good rep here, for good reason--it is hard work (no bias).

Truly am grateful for the kind words friend. Just what I needed to hear. :cool:

wilcox34
02-01-2009, 1:28 AM
Wow this thread is great. Rival gun stores. Im very displeased with what I have read from both sides. I think using peoples real names is a low blow. I have done business with both companies in the past a would only rely on the the person to person service I that received at both locations.

The one thread by JJ that links us to their vendor site seems as if someone has played games and acted as them. What ever both places rock and do a good service for the California and nation wide market. We should all try to cut these vendors a break. After all they put their necks on the line for us. Lets use this forum for what its intended for, good information and sharing great stories.:cool2:

technique
02-01-2009, 1:34 AM
no one else has mentioned that yet...J&J claims someone else is logging in on their user name....












a disgruntled former employee?????:eek: just kidding:o

DedEye
02-01-2009, 1:34 AM
Wow this thread is great. Rival gun stores. Im very displeased with what I have read from both sides. I think using peoples real names is a low blow. I have done business with both companies in the past a would only rely on the the person to person service I that received at both locations.

The one thread by JJ that links us to their vendor site seems as if someone has played games and acted as them. What ever both places rock and do a good service for the California and nation wide market. We should all try to cut these vendors a break. After all they put their necks on the line for us. Lets use this forum for what its intended for, good information and sharing great stories.:cool2:

What "rival gun stores?" Most of this thread has been dedicated to asking specific questions of a single gun store. One of their employees now works for another popular vendor, and some of the dirty laundry was shared here.
Other than that, the thread has stayed more or less on topic.

wilcox34
02-01-2009, 1:53 AM
[QUOTE=DedEye;1976247]What "rival gun stores?" Most of this thread has been dedicated to asking specific questions of a single gun store. One of their employees now works for another popular vendor, and some of the dirty laundry was shared here.
Other than that, the thread has stayed more or less on topic.[/QUOT

I understand the position of the thread I read it. It is the responsibilty of the manufacture to give the accurate info. J&J's original thread seems to be premature. They should of had all the specs to give. Ive seen the rifles in their shop and they give out amature flyers explaining specs. Some people take email or computer format different. And unless you get the person to person contact wording may seem out of the content it was ment to be. And they may have gotten their feelings hurt. But who really knows. I want a rifle they have built. Think the 308 is expensive but the 223 is a great rifle.

Dirty laundry should not be spread and if you know for fact what has been spread is truth, than great. But im not going to listen to one person's story vs the other on a forum.

I would have to agree with the guy eairler that said disgruntled FORMER employee. Someone is playing games with their login. Hate to see people leave a forum over it but it may be the best for all.

freonr22
02-01-2009, 2:00 AM
Someone is playing games with their login. Hate to see people leave a forum over it but it may be the best for all.


well why would you leave over identity theft???? Kestryll i would believe could track the ip address if thats the case...

nagorb
02-01-2009, 2:00 AM
poor J&J they got asked questions very hard revealing questions:rolleyes:

nagorb
02-01-2009, 2:02 AM
Someone is playing games with their login. Hate to see people leave a forum over it but it may be the best for all.


well why would you leave over identity theft???? Kestryll i would believe could track the ip address if thats the case...

Its easy to **** up and blame it on "identity theft" I CALL BS

50CalAL
02-01-2009, 2:08 AM
Don't worry about it.

That said way more about him than you.

Riflegear's service and professionalism has a very good rep here, for good reason--it is hard work (no bias).

+1 I've ordered from Riflegear (online) and have had no problems with service or delivery of what I ordered.

I'm still surprised that J&J has taken this so personally.

DedEye
02-01-2009, 2:18 AM
Cooler heads seem to be prevailing, so perhaps we should all sleep on it and await a more comprehensive explanation. If it includes a more welcoming and conciliatory tone I see no reason not to forgive and forget.

G17GUY
02-01-2009, 2:30 AM
Cooler heads seem to be prevailing, so perhaps we should all sleep on it and await a more comprehensive explanation. If it includes a more welcoming and conciliatory tone I see no reason not to forgive and forget.

No way he already quit calguns, hes out of here. No matter how much we beg to buy his product he will not stay and let us. Its a shame I wanted that rifle.

caduckgunner
02-01-2009, 7:13 AM
Wow this thread is great. Rival gun stores. Im very displeased with what I have read from both sides.



Wow....... really.........:censored: There is no rival thread. It is questions being asked of one vendor and a small dust up between said vendor and a former employee. You my friend are a drama queen.

caduckgunner
02-01-2009, 7:15 AM
Someone is playing games with their login. Hate to see people leave a forum over it but it may be the best for all.


How do you know all this with your 6 post on this board? You KNOW someone is playing games with there login? Please explain how. How is leaving the board?

sorensen440
02-01-2009, 9:30 AM
So what actually happened ?
I see all of the post's about this situation have been deleted

offrdmania
02-01-2009, 9:37 AM
J&J came out with a new rifle which is priced quite high, a Calguns member asked general questions about who is making the parts; Trying to justify the added cost. J&J got on the defensive and in a rude way told him that it was none of his business to know or scooted around the question. That is it in a nutshell

sorensen440
02-01-2009, 9:39 AM
J&J came out with a new rifle which is priced quite high, a Calguns member asked general questions about whi is making the parts. Trying to justify the added cost and J&J got on the defensive and in a rude way told him that it was none of his business to know. That is in a nutshell
Right I was there for all that but when I went to bed last night they had basically said goodbye to calguns and were taking there ball and going home

I was wondering what happened since then
all posts have been removed including the goodbye post

CHS
02-01-2009, 10:04 AM
J&J leaving calguns was in no way whatsoever my intention. Personally, I think it's a little bit immature and smacks of "I'm taking my ball and going home!".

All I wanted were some answers to STANDARD INDUSTRY QUESTIONS.

Or at the very least, a convincing explanation to why they WONT answer those STANDARD INDUSTRY QUESTIONS.

Looks like they sort of gave an explanation why they wouldn't answer, but it was too little too late. That should have been their first and only response. Period. From a sales perspective, I think they have a lot to learn.

And for the record people, PLEASE keep riflegear, ammo bros, ades, etc out of this thread. This is not about them. This is not a comparison between J&J and any other vendor.

hoffman259
02-01-2009, 10:11 AM
Wow, I shop at J&J and the other place down the street, both are within 5 miles of my house. I have shopped at J&J for a while now and loved the place and in the last 6 months have been going to the other place down the street. I have to say I am going to reconsider were I spend my hard earned money after reading the replies posted by J&J. Everytime I go into the other place down the street, they are extremley friendly and go out of their way to help me.

Customer service means something to a lot of people. I guess with the way gun prices are going some companies figure customer service is a thing of the past. I wonder what will happen if prices come back down to sane levels.


*the other place down the street is not named so they dont get dragged into this discussion.

wilcox34
02-01-2009, 11:13 AM
All they have to do is have a sale and everyone thats on this forum will be there in a hot flash to buy up all the product at a discount rate. Cant we all get along. And the guy that called me a drama queen because I had 6 posts. Thanks bud you seem like a great guy. Im so glad i goined this very addictive site

CSACANNONEER
02-01-2009, 11:18 AM
All they have to do is have a sale and everyone thats on this forum will be there in a hot flash to buy up all the product at a discount rate. Cant we all get along. And the guy that called me a drama queen because I had 6 posts. Thanks bud you seem like a great guy. Im so glad i goined this very addictive site

Post count mean NOTHING! I've seen some very proficient world class shooters get run off of forums because keyboard commando mall ninjas with high post counts think they are better and know more than real shooters. Don't be discouraged. The only thing post count shows is how much time some of us can't spend at the range! I wish my post count was lower!

wilcox34
02-01-2009, 11:29 AM
Post count mean NOTHING! I've seen some very proficient world class shooters get run off of forums because keyboard commando mall ninjas with high post counts think they are better and know more than real shooters. Don't be discouraged. The only thing post count shows is how much time some of us can't spend at the range! I wish my post count was lower!

I hear ya...better not talk about this in this forum someone might get mad. Were suppose to be bashing a local gun store that wont put their specs up of their new rifle. The canguns fan club is upset.:43:

Most of what I did was read the information before I ever decied to post.

BTW the range was great yesterday. Shot my Styer SSG my wife got me for Christmas. I got a little better than 1/2 moa at 200yrds. My scope was giving me issues. Not sure i like those special scope mounts for the Steyer.

HkUSP45
02-01-2009, 11:51 AM
i just bought 2 gunsmith territorial lower at Rifle Gear. and Magpul MOE. Riflegear...excellant customer service.

97F1504RAD
02-01-2009, 11:54 AM
Don't worry about it.

That said way more about him than you.

Riflegear's service and professionalism has a very good rep here, for good reason--it is hard work (no bias).


I agree Ryan went out of his way recently to resolve a issue with a order I screwed up and made it right without hesitation. They will continue to get my business that's for sure.

As for J&J I read that thread briefly and did think the replies to some very basics questions was way out of line. I see that the thread has now been deleted so I must assume it went real bad real fast at some point.

Not sure why some very simple answers to the questions asked could not have been given right up front and why J&J could not have simply stated I can not reveal my sources now due to contractual agreements or whatever other reason may be with them, but if you wish to discuss in private please feel free to call us. Something that could have stopped all the bickering right away.

I think that J&J leaving is terrible and a bit childish myself but at this point it appears to be to late to salvage any of that.

caduckgunner
02-01-2009, 12:20 PM
And the guy that called me a drama queen because I had 6 posts. Thanks bud you seem like a great guy. Im so glad i goined this very addictive site


When you make post like the following, and your join date is today, the same day this thread took off, I tend to think you are either a troll, or an employee at J&J (Which is fine, just come out and say it). Doesn't help that 25% of your post are pimping J&J.

Someone is playing games with their login
Please prove this

Rival gun stores. Im very displeased with what I have read from both sides.
Did you even read the thread?

I have never dealt with J&J, but as stated a simple "Our deal with the suppliers does not allow is to disclose the manufacture", or posting basic standard info would have spared this entire thread.

nagorb
02-01-2009, 12:47 PM
maybe you missed the other thread where their login problem was mentioned;)

GrayWolf09
02-01-2009, 1:45 PM
My cousin Zeke runs an anger management program and when he saw this thread he fell down, grabbed his heart and yelled ":Thank you Jesus, I've just found the promised land!" WTF is going on. If you have a non-disclosure agreement just pm info. No need to get huffy.

The mods won't let us see the original thread which means you must have done something very bad like insult Brittany Spears or Ann Coulter. Confess your sins and be forgiven or be consigned to the netherworld of banishment.:68:

CHS
02-01-2009, 2:16 PM
Since I was not actually online at all last night, I missed what happened to the original Q&A thread for these rifles.

Did J&J delete the thread?
Did the mods delete the thread? Possibly at the request of J&J?
Did some major crapstorm happen in that thread or something?

DedEye
02-01-2009, 2:29 PM
Since I was not actually online at all last night, I missed what happened to the original Q&A thread for these rifles.

Did J&J delete the thread?
Did the mods delete the thread? Possibly at the request of J&J?
Did some major crapstorm happen in that thread or something?

The deleted threads were/are in the J&J Armory subforum. J&J Armory has moderator power to delete threads in that subforum.

In the space between when I last looked at the thread and when it disappeared, I highly doubt that it turned ugly. I suspect someone from J&J decided that it would be wiser to come back to the forum with a better attitude than to write the membership here off with a "take my ball and go home" attitude and goodbye post.

H2H
02-01-2009, 2:54 PM
fwiw, I have always been a very satisfied customer of Casual Observer/Ryan.
He is very customer oriented and I appreciate that. I actually liked J&J better when Casual Observer was working there.

technique
02-01-2009, 4:00 PM
most of those questions asked were things other venders tell without you asking. Twist rate is now an industry secret? come on. They just didn't want to tell you it was hesse/vulcan.

its funny that you troll every J&J thread and say that. You obviously really don't know...

Hesse/Vulcan make Armalite type parts...Funny though, the J&J rifles are DPMS type.

AlliedArmory
02-23-2009, 12:14 AM
give them a break. i have called many local dealers around here and get rude people all the time. i had to call 4-5 different places to get them to do a out of state FFL transfer. Ammo bros being the worst out of all of them. i was there again a few weeks later and everything was fine. j&j gave me excellent service when i have used them.

mvpatriot
02-23-2009, 1:32 AM
They argued with me over bullet buttons and high caps at the Ontario show, ohh yeah and they're over priced. Thanks anyway.

DedEye
02-23-2009, 10:05 AM
give them a break. i have called many local dealers around here and get rude people all the time. i had to call 4-5 different places to get them to do a out of state FFL transfer. Ammo bros being the worst out of all of them. i was there again a few weeks later and everything was fine. j&j gave me excellent service when i have used them.

You're about three weeks late to this party.

They argued with me over bullet buttons and high caps at the Ontario show, ohh yeah and they're over priced. Thanks anyway.

What were they saying? Were they telling you that you can't use a high capacity magazine with a bullet button? You can't...