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ObeOne
01-31-2009, 1:48 PM
Has anyone else seen this yet?
http://projectyano.org/educationnotarms/
They are pitching a fit because JROTC in some high schools are using air rifles!
Lot of Propaganda in the piece.
I first saw it on We the Armed, by the way.

Scotty
01-31-2009, 2:11 PM
Guess we need to flood the school board's e-mail.

I would have loved to taken air rifle in high school. When I went to UC Davis, the rifle shooting class was reduced to ROTC only due to budget reasons.

Here's the info for the school board.

Write To:
Shelia Jackson (President)
John deBeck
Kathryn Nakamura
Richard Barrera
John Lee Evans

Send letters to:
Member's Name:
Board of Education
San Diego Unified School District
4100 Normal Street, Room 2231
San Diego, CA 92103

Fax (619) 297-5624
Phone: (619) 725-5550
Email: board@sandi.net

sfpcservice
01-31-2009, 2:19 PM
Take a look at their main site:

http://projectyano.org/

That should tell you all you need to know about these whack jobs.

Max-the-Silent
01-31-2009, 2:24 PM
When I see crap like this, I always think of a certain individual who served on a local board.

Long before it became a popular activity amongst the anti's, a local woman always appeared before the board he served on, petioning them to shut down the San Mateo Gunshow (this goes back 20+ years)

His description follows:

"We sit and listen to her and make nice, and I come up with a way to tell her to go **** in her hat, without exactly saying it that way."

motorhead
01-31-2009, 2:28 PM
address your hate mail to these whackos here:
Opportunities (Project YANO)


P.O. Box 230157
Encinitas
California
United States of America
92023

CitaDeL
01-31-2009, 2:39 PM
Wouldnt it make sense to oppose their position by supporting youth training in firearms whether it be JROTC or a Young Calguns Range Day or other program, rather than waste our time composing letters that will neither convince them nor encourage a rational debate?

Seriously- I'd rather donate time or money to a meaningful effort to educate youngsters before they are lied to than to engage the screaming mimi's on their own level.

Axewound
01-31-2009, 2:47 PM
wow. these people are crazy

i used to know the rifle coach at madison, because he used to be the coach at my high school, hes a great guy.

ObeOne
01-31-2009, 2:55 PM
CitaDeL,
Yes we do need to provide those things, but we can't be silent and let people think we don't have a say or they are the only voices on the subject, even if what they are saying doesn’t make any sense.

CitaDeL
01-31-2009, 3:16 PM
CitaDeL,
Yes we do need to provide those things, but we can't be silent and let people think we don't have a say or they are the only voices on the subject, even if what they are saying doesn’t make any sense.

By educating others, we are having our say. We will gain nothing by engaging debate with these kinds of hand-wringers, except perhaps writers cramp or laryngitis. It is those who have not made up their minds yet, that we can do the most with... for the most part, this means the young and those who have never been to the range and are willing to try something new.

ObeOne
01-31-2009, 3:44 PM
I am not saying getting in shouting matches with them. But whenever they are spewing their BS especially to people like school boards and such, we have to be there to counter their BS with facts and logic.
We can't let them be the only voice that is herd, even if the media is on their side.

DedEye
01-31-2009, 7:04 PM
Looks like San Diego Calgunners should expect to be in attendance on the 10th.

DDT
01-31-2009, 8:00 PM
I have to say that I am a big supporter of 2A rights but having kids shooting air rifles in JROTC just seems wrong.

Why aren't they shooting real rifles? They should have an opportunity to use at least rim fire and I would argue centerfire .223 weapons. These are the weapons they will be using as they continue their career. We don't teach kids to drive in pedal powered go carts.

Satex
01-31-2009, 8:05 PM
Folks, talk here is cheap, use the provided email and fax number to send them a polite note supporting JROTC and the sports marksmanship program. Fax carries more weight than email.

Scotty
01-31-2009, 8:38 PM
Why aren't they shooting real rifles? They should have an opportunity to use at least rim fire and I would argue centerfire .223 weapons. These are the weapons they will be using as they continue their career. We don't teach kids to drive in pedal powered go carts.

Because rimfire and 223 goes through the thin sheetmetal pellet traps in the school gym. Plus there's the lead and noise issue. But hey, they are teaching the kids to shoot at an X the size of a period "." at 10m.:thumbsup:

shooterdave
01-31-2009, 9:40 PM
nut jobs! i remember my cousin in croatia telling me that in HS they had something called preconscription training and they got to shoot the mauser
m48. it had something to do with in case of war everyone would know how to use the basic weapons of the army. also it was to familiarize those who would be drafted with the main rifle they would use in basic training. it's to bad that we don't have that in this country but the libs would howl bloody murder over it. it's still like this in russia but instead they use the ak-74 and everyone knows how to use it even the kids!

jumbopanda
01-31-2009, 10:51 PM
Obviously the US military is our enemy and the root of all the problems in this country. No weapons training! Students not soldiers! Blah blah blah blah blah.:rolleyes:

N6ATF
01-31-2009, 11:06 PM
We talked about this in #calguns a few weeks back.

My only problem is that taxpayer money is being spent on only preparing people for the military. If these programs trained people to be good citizens with leadership skills and expert marksmanship without being in a military indoctrination context, it would be fine.

In fact if YANO went at it from the perspective of "the law bans firearms at schools, why are these programs exempt?" we could have something to debate: the idiocy of victim disarmament zones and keeping future upstanding citizens ignorant about guns, self-defense, and speaking softly while carrying a big <boom>stick.

As it stands now, they only have it half-right. The not trusting the government part.

The government should be serving the public, not serving itself.

kermit
02-01-2009, 7:47 AM
Please check the dates on the meetings. It looks like this issue has been decided in 2008 in favor of the JROTC.:jump:

Probably part of an anti-Bush/Iraq war group, based on some of the comments in the links. I hope they are just as vocal when BHO kicks off his Afghan campaign.

ObeOne
02-01-2009, 8:44 AM
Dhoh:kest:
See post 28.

hvengel
02-01-2009, 12:05 PM
Because rimfire and 223 goes through the thin sheetmetal pellet traps in the school gym. Plus there's the lead and noise issue. But hey, they are teaching the kids to shoot at an X the size of a period "." at 10m.:thumbsup:

In addition you can teach 99% of what you need to about basic gun skills with pellet guns - safety, marksmanship and so on - for a fraction of the cost of using rim fire rifles. I have at times started out new shooters using pellet guns and after the initial training with a pellet gun the transition to the real thing is very straight forward. The very low levels of noise and recoil using pellet guns helps new shooters develop good trigger and follow through habits/skills. In addition it is more PC which makes it possible for this type of thing to happen at all in a school context in the land of PC.

I do agree with DDT's comment that this training program should not be confined to just the JROTC students and should be on the curriculum for all students. But at least some students are getting gun related training in school and that is a good thing.

jumbopanda
02-01-2009, 1:11 PM
I remember doing a little bit of archery in high school gym class, and thought it was the most fun thing we ever did in that class. I'm sure many students would love to learn to shoot for fun, whether it be air guns or real firearms. And at the same time they would be taught about firearms safety, so that if they encounter firearms in the future, they would know not to behave stupidly around them.

It doesn't have to be about JROTC or preparing kids for the military. But in this PC world we live in, teaching kids to shoot is considered a vile, despicable act.

Matt C
02-01-2009, 1:24 PM
:puke: I can't stand these smug people protesting the military, what do they think would happen if there was no military? They would be DEAD.

jumbopanda
02-01-2009, 1:27 PM
:puke: I can't stand these smug people protesting the military, what do they think would happen if there was no military? They would be DEAD.


http://www.mgroves.com/images/south_park_smug.jpg

DedEye
02-01-2009, 1:32 PM
SD JROTC has it better than UCSB ROTC in some ways.

The M16s they use are plastic/rubber! :eek: ;)





No, really, they are.




They're not for marksmanship training of course :p.

ObeOne
02-01-2009, 1:33 PM
Well, they don't let little things like facts get in the way of what they want and Feeeel. The bad part is tht they are breeding.

N6ATF
02-01-2009, 1:58 PM
:puke: I can't stand these smug people protesting the military, what do they think would happen if there was no military? They would be DEAD.

Training an armed society, polite society, would be a hell of a lot better for mortality than only training future soldiers.

Seesm
02-01-2009, 2:05 PM
I think it is cool they get to work with those...

ObeOne
02-01-2009, 2:06 PM
OK guys.
I have done a little more research. Granted I should have done this before, but as they say what happens when you assume.....
They can't seem to get their dates straight.:( Tuesday was on the 11th in 2008. I also when to the SD unified school district site and they will be having their meeting Tuesday Feb 10, 2009.
SO it does look like it is something that is coming up.
I am trying to set some stuff up with the NRA as well, so if/when we have people show up, we are on the same page.
Sorry for the confusion.

N6ATF
02-01-2009, 4:20 PM
Speaking of being on the same page, is it possible for our contingent to not counter the other side directly?

Here's a possible argument:
"Why shouldn't gun safety and marksmanship skills be provided to all interested students without serious juvenile criminal records, regardless of future military careers? Surely this would support the 2A to the Constitution and reduce needless deaths due to negligent discharges and criminals having total control over unarmed and untrained victims."

The board might consider differing viewpoints more carefully than simply looking at two diametrically opposed sides, anti-war vs military.

Liberty Rules
02-01-2009, 8:31 PM
Aside from the idiocy preached by these people, I learned something new on their website. Talk about "bracket creep", apparently pellet rifles are now "high powered". :rolleyes:

BTW, I went to High School at a prominent Catholic prep school in Washington, D.C., est. 1851. At the time, it was 100% JROTC and had been that way since the program was started in 1915. (It's coed now and JROTC optional.) I graduated in 1983. There was a rifle range in the basement underneath the gym. We used to target shoot .22LR down there after school (the school owned the rifles). It never occurred to me before now, even with all the hubub about Heller, but I was shooting rifles in H.S. on D.C. property. How the heck did that happen?

Scotty
02-01-2009, 8:50 PM
Under the Bush adminstration, the easiest way to make a point is simply to yank all federal funding to the school if they don't have JROTC.

The implications at high school might not be so great. But at the college level, Caltech, University of California (combined), and Standford are the only schools to make the top 100 of federal contractors. Caltech and UC's get BILLIONS of dollars a year in government contracts.

Stanford
http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/fpds.php?parent_id=298545&sortby=u&detail=-1&datype=T&reptype=r&database=fpds&fiscal_year=&submit=GO

Caltech
http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/fpds.php?parent_id=54232&sortby=u&sum_expand=S&detail=-1&datype=T&reptype=r&database=fpds&fiscal_year=&submit=GO

UC's
http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/fpds.php?parent_id=327952&sortby=u&detail=-1&datype=T&reptype=r&database=fpds&fiscal_year=&submit=GO

CavTrooper
02-01-2009, 8:54 PM
Under the Bush adminstration, the easiest way to make a point is simply to yank all federal funding to the school if they don't have JROTC.



???

Im confused as to the point you are trying to make... please clarify.

DDT
02-01-2009, 9:00 PM
Under the Bush adminstration, the easiest way to make a point is simply to yank all federal funding to the school if they don't have JROTC.

The implications at high school might not be so great. But at the college level, Caltech, University of California (combined), and Standford are the only schools to make the top 100 of federal contractors. Caltech and UC's get BILLIONS of dollars a year in government contracts.

Stanford
http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/fpds.php?parent_id=298545&sortby=u&detail=-1&datype=T&reptype=r&database=fpds&fiscal_year=&submit=GO

Caltech
http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/fpds.php?parent_id=54232&sortby=u&sum_expand=S&detail=-1&datype=T&reptype=r&database=fpds&fiscal_year=&submit=GO

UC's
http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/fpds.php?parent_id=327952&sortby=u&detail=-1&datype=T&reptype=r&database=fpds&fiscal_year=&submit=GO

Don't count on the new administration doing anything to force ROTC down the throats of the Universities. This is one more place that our culture will doubtless turn over the next decade.

Scotty
02-01-2009, 9:02 PM
???

Im confused as to the point you are trying to make... please clarify.

See Semper Fi Act. http://demint.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=efe9c9d2-c741-84dd-2aee-bdcccad26a06

CavTrooper
02-01-2009, 9:38 PM
See Semper Fi Act. http://demint.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=efe9c9d2-c741-84dd-2aee-bdcccad26a06

Ok, so what does that have to do with President Bush and JROTC?

trinydex
02-02-2009, 9:52 AM
See Semper Fi Act. http://demint.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=efe9c9d2-c741-84dd-2aee-bdcccad26a06

why would berkeley do that?

ObeOne
02-09-2009, 7:09 PM
So, is anyone else going to be there tomorrow?
I currently plan to, and I know a lot of ROTC support and I believe either VFW or American legion will be too.
I know at least a couple of other NRA people are going to be there, too.

Axewound
02-09-2009, 10:48 PM
my military school used .22 before columbine and all the other HS shootings, then they switched to nice match pellet guns. damn politics of the time
JROTC can teach kids discpline and leadership along with being a good citizen. they never fully advocated military indoctrination post high school but rather for us to be successful adults in whatever we chose.
Honest to god

Liberty1
02-10-2009, 5:16 AM
...

Dr Rockso
02-10-2009, 8:28 AM
I did JROTC as a HS freshman in Texas. In 2000 my family moved to Santa Cruz, and my folks went around a couple of the different high schools to talk with the principals about what courses they had, etc. When my mom mentioned that I did JROTC, and wanted to know if the local HS also had a JROTC program, apparently the principal threw a spit fit and said that they "don't militarize their kids" and the "community wouldn't stand for it". One of my first introductions to how freaking weird this state is.

cyphr02
02-10-2009, 9:41 AM
I did JROTC in HS in SD. We learned terrible things like range safety, and proper shooting techniques, and spent a couple weeks discussing and a day shooting. Using air rifles meant that we could shoot without having to use hearing protection and therefore could recieve instructions while on the line, and there is significantly less liability involved. Oh, then there is all the time I was robbed of from getting a valuable education... Though you take ROTC instead of PE, so learning about leadership styles, first aid, map reading and navigation was totally worthless compared to running laps and playing kickball.

N6ATF
02-10-2009, 12:02 PM
The ROTC instead of PE thing is used to complain that all kids need exercise since the country is too fat. How many unfit kids were in the program?

JROTC can teach kids discpline and leadership along with being a good citizen. they never fully advocated military indoctrination post high school but rather for us to be successful adults in whatever we chose. Honest to god

Well that's good to hear, especially since the very title seems to imply military-only: Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps

Dr Rockso
02-10-2009, 12:21 PM
The ROTC instead of PE thing is used to complain that all kids need exercise since the country is too fat. How many unfit kids were in the program?
In my JROTC detachment in Texas there was an emphasis on physical fitness. Not that much of the class time was actually spent doing PT, but if a kid couldn't meet the physical requirements (s)he'd have to show improvement either independently or by attending after-school PT to progress in rank. A couple of grizzled old retired military guys can keep a hundred kids in line a lot better than your average gym teacher.

MrSlippyFist
02-10-2009, 12:30 PM
This thing could use some PT.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/slippyfist_photos/Misc/students.jpg

sgtbuck
03-19-2009, 4:00 PM
I was in MCJROTC in the 70s. We had 22lr and would dry fire on the football field, we were part of the small bore rifle team. It was no big deal back then. I do not know when they did away with the rifle team but it was before the late 90s. My oldest son spent three years in the MCJROTC program. When he started he was over weight and not in shape. After three years in the program he thined out and here we are ten years later and he is still in top shape. He is in the Army. My youngest son is currently in the same MCJROTC unit and he is also in top shape. I hear all this BS about our good programs that teach kids honor, respect, integrity, physical fitness, team work and leadership plus much more. I keep waiting for them to try to take away the demilitarized M1s that my son uses on the rifle drill team. A few years ago when the illegal's were protesting our kids were told that they could not wear anything with an american flag or american colors on it. But the illegals were allowed to show Mexico's flag and show there colors. There was a huge back lash over that because in Oceanside California it is a US Marine town. We were some very pissed off parents. Also the kids that were protesting were givin excuses to not be in class. I could go into detail about how the schools handled it but it pisses me off till this day to even think about it.