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EBR Works
01-30-2009, 7:28 AM
I have received several PM's requesting clarification of legality of having a forward vertical grip on a Saiga 12. Some members have expressed concern that having a forward vertical grip causes the weapon to become an AW. Not true.

If the weapon has a non-detachable magazine via a custom mag lock, you can have a fixed stock, a pistol grip and a forward vertical grip on the weapon and still remain Cali compliant. Keep in mind that the major configuration difference between an OLL center-fire rifle and an OLL semi-auto shotgun is that you may have either a pistol grip OR a folding stock, not both. You must have a non-detachable magazine on any semi-auto shotgun with an external magazine. Additionally, the overall length (OAL) minimum for a shotgun is 26" with a minimum 18" barrel.

Anyone disagree? Comments?

Jpach
01-30-2009, 10:23 AM
Agreed! :thumbsup:

Wizard99
01-30-2009, 10:41 AM
Anyone know who might have CA ready Saiga 12's in NORCAL?

Steve O
01-30-2009, 10:46 AM
Anyone know who might have CA ready Saiga 12's in NORCAL?

lol. I'm guessing NO ONE!

DedEye
01-30-2009, 10:51 AM
lol. I'm guessing NO ONE!

Bullseye has them in stock if you can stand the price.

grywlfbg
01-30-2009, 11:36 AM
Anyone know who might have CA ready Saiga 12's in NORCAL?

PM fedupwbs or thedrickel. They may have some in stock or on order.

EBR Works
01-30-2009, 5:29 PM
DDS Ranch has them:

http://www.ddsranch.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=277_291_405&products_id=613

You would have to ship it to an intermediary for Cali compliance.

evollep3
01-30-2009, 6:27 PM
intrested

savageevo
01-30-2009, 9:19 PM
I want to put my two cents here concerning AW status on Saiga 12. S12 must have some sort of BB, Radlock, What have you, so you do not have a Semi Auto Shotgun with a open magwel, magazine fed. You can only have one evil feature to a SEMI auto shotgun, Semi-auto with either a folding stock or a pistol grip. If you add a forward pistol grip to a Semiauto shotgun that has a pistol grip, that would put that in a AW status.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf

Shotguns
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or
vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

Anybody in the know please chime in if this is correct.

EBR Works
01-30-2009, 9:28 PM
In regard to my S12 which you seem to think is an AW by feature in your PMs:

Shotguns
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following: My S12 does not have "both"
(A) A folding or telescoping stock. My S12 does not have a folding or telescoping stock, it is fixed.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip. Yes, my S12 has this. Both grips count as one feature only.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine. My S12 does not have a detachable magazine. It has a mag lock with a 10 round mag.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder. My S12 does not have this.

Do you understand? If I'm not making sense, please someone else jump in here and help savageevo to understand why this is a legal configuration.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/impactco/S12Medium.jpg

JeffM
01-30-2009, 9:31 PM
I want to put my two cents here concerning AW status on Saiga 12. S12 must have some sort of BB, Radlock, What have you, so you do not have a Semi Auto Shotgun with a open magwel, magazine fed. You can only have one evil feature to a SEMI auto shotgun, Semi-auto with either a folding stock or a pistol grip. If you add a forward pistol grip to a Semiauto shotgun that has a pistol grip, that would put that in a AW status.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf

Shotguns
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or
vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

Anybody in the know please chime in if this is correct.

Both "(A)" AND "(B)" must be satisfied to trigger AW status. PG or VFG is contained only within "(B)".

PG + FVG does not = an AW

Edited to add: The way the law is written, it doesn't mention a "Forward Vertical Grip" it only says "vertical handgrip". I would hazard to say that a regular pistol grip could also be considered a "vertical handgrip" because the law doesn't cite a location. It's vertical, and gripped by the hand. Two words to say the same thing. If having both a "pistol grip" and a "vertical handgrip" made a semi-auto shotgun an Assault Weapon, then any semi Bennelli, Remington, etc, with a pistol grip could be construed to have both, and therefore be Assault Weapons. (Unless "vertical handgrip" has some legal definition other than the plain English as written)

EBR Works
01-30-2009, 9:42 PM
Thanks for the clarity JeffM!

Got it savageevo?

JeffM
01-30-2009, 9:49 PM
Thanks for the clarity JeffM!

Got it savageevo?

Just for the record, I am not a lawyer. I just read the code. There may be other interpretations or case law that affects the legal meaning of the terms the code contains.

If savageevo or anyone else has a better grasp on the code, I'm sure it would be appreciated if they would chime in and articulate their stance.

savageevo
01-30-2009, 10:09 PM
The night is still young and I am sure Bwiese, Hoffmag, Librarian, oaklander, etc will chime in.

EBR Works
01-30-2009, 10:13 PM
Relevant discussion that I initiated back in October of '08 here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=128007&highlight=Saiga