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markgrubb
01-28-2009, 10:14 PM
Scenario 1. I had possession of ten standard capacity magazines ("SCM"'s) prior to the ban. They eventually wore out and wee damaged and I rebuilt them with all new parts; tubes, baseplates, springs, followers, the works. I now have ten brand new SCM's.

Where does the burden of proof lie with respect to the original ownership of he 10 legal SCM's? I was given the originals so no receipt. My cop friends and the local FFL store owner say I have committed a felony and will be arrested if I get stopped with said SCM's.

Scenario 2. Any problem using pre-ban or newly rebuilt SCM's in a post-ban gun?

My local FFL says that you are not allowed to use rebuilt SCM's in a gun that was built post-ban.

What is expected to happen if one gets searched and the police find SCM's in your posession? What is expected to happen in court?

This is a (potential) felony? Any case law?

Thanks for the resource!

Mark

ohsmily
01-28-2009, 10:15 PM
Wow, these are new questions. I will have to ponder the answers.

sorensen440
01-28-2009, 10:15 PM
Scenario 1. I had possession of ten standard capacity magazines ("SCM"'s) prior to the ban. They eventually wore out and wee damaged and I rebuilt them with all new parts; tubes, baseplates, springs, followers, the works. I now have ten brand new SCM's.

Where does the burden of proof lie with respect to the original ownership of he 10 legal SCM's? I was given the originals so no receipt. My cop friends and the local FFL store owner say I have committed a felony and will be arrested if I get stopped with said SCM's.

Scenario 2. Any problem using pre-ban or newly rebuilt SCM's in a post-ban gun?

My local FFL says that you are not allowed to use rebuilt SCM's in a gun that was built post-ban.

What is expected to happen if one gets searched and the police find SCM's in your posession? What is expected to happen in court?

This is a (potential) felony? Any case law?

Thanks for the resource!

Mark
Burden of proof always lies on the state

no issues using it in a post ban gun

LOW2000
01-28-2009, 10:24 PM
Only issue in a "post ban" gun would be a post 2000 OLL that is not configured such that it can accept 30rd mags without running afoul of evil features issues.

tazmanian devil dog
01-28-2009, 10:42 PM
Scenario #1. Cop friends and ffl are full of crap. You Have Not Committed a Felony!!!!! You rebuilt legally owned mags, which is perfectly legal. Some cops and ffls are notoriously full of crap on gun laws.

Scenario # 2. No issue on using previously legal scm's in post ban guns. i.e. you buy a new glock 23 that comes only with 10rd mags, but you happened to have some scm's from before the ban. Perfectly legal.

bohoki
01-28-2009, 10:55 PM
how many rounds does a standard capacity magazine hold?

sorensen440
01-28-2009, 10:56 PM
how many rounds does a standard capacity magazine hold?
Depends on the firearm

grywlfbg
01-28-2009, 10:57 PM
how many rounds does a standard capacity magazine hold?

>10

scootergmc
01-28-2009, 10:58 PM
"I was just going through some old boxes in my closet and....."

wildhawker
01-28-2009, 11:00 PM
Wow, these are new questions. I will have to ponder the answers.

Am I sensing... no, couldn't fathom it...

bohoki
01-28-2009, 11:19 PM
>10

my 1911 only holds 8

my 10/22 only holds 10

what is the standard magazine for an ar-15?

"standard magazine" has no meaning hi-cap does

Rhys898
01-29-2009, 12:05 AM
actually high cap has no meaning and standard does, the standard capacity magazine for a berretta 92fs is 14 or 15, the nuetered low cap mag is 10rds.

The whole HIGH-CAP name is based off the screamming mimi gun banners, prior to them *****ing about mag capacity there was no such thing as high cap.

sorensen440
01-29-2009, 12:09 AM
what is the standard magazine for an ar-15?

"standard magazine" has no meaning hi-cap does
You have it backwards

standard capacity magazine would be whatever size magazine a gun was designed to use

AR-15 would be either a 20 or a 30

Quiet
01-29-2009, 12:13 AM
As defined by CA law, the correct term to use in reference to ammunition feeding devices that hold more than 10 rounds is large-capacity magazine.

Please refer them as such when asking legal questions.


Penal Code 12020
(c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

sorensen440
01-29-2009, 12:16 AM
As defined by CA law, the correct term to use in reference to ammunition feeding devices that hold more than 10 rounds is large-capacity magazine.

Please refer them as such when asking legal questions.


Penal Code 12020
(c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.
I refuse and will continue to call them what they are
Standard Capacity Magazines

bohoki
01-29-2009, 12:32 AM
I refuse and will continue to call them what they are
Standard Capacity Magazines

well what is a 25 round butler creek for the ruger 10/22?

or a 10 rounder for a 1911

JeffM
01-29-2009, 12:46 AM
As defined by CA law, the correct term to use in reference to ammunition feeding devices that hold more than 10 rounds is large-capacity magazine.
Please refer them as such when asking legal questions.
Penal Code 12020

+1

But you can lead a horse to water...

:rolleyes:

JDay
01-29-2009, 1:00 AM
well what is a 25 round butler creek for the ruger 10/22?

or a 10 rounder for a 1911

Standard capacity since thats the magazines designed capacity. What is a 10/30 called?

JeffM
01-29-2009, 1:10 AM
Standard capacity since thats the magazines designed capacity. What is a 10/30 called?

Fictional capacity?

Non-standard capacity?

Capacity-sub-capacity?

Suhcapacity?

Kapa-Kapa-capacity?

In-capacity?

Khyberpacity?

syncapacity?

Fluxcapacity?

Sam
01-29-2009, 5:35 AM
crap-pacity?

Decoligny
01-29-2009, 8:48 AM
Scenario 1. I had possession of ten standard capacity magazines ("SCM"'s) prior to the ban. They eventually wore out and wee damaged and I rebuilt them with all new parts; tubes, baseplates, springs, followers, the works. I now have ten brand new SCM's.

Where does the burden of proof lie with respect to the original ownership of he 10 legal SCM's? I was given the originals so no receipt. My cop friends and the local FFL store owner say I have committed a felony and will be arrested if I get stopped with said SCM's.

Scenario 2. Any problem using pre-ban or newly rebuilt SCM's in a post-ban gun?

My local FFL says that you are not allowed to use rebuilt SCM's in a gun that was built post-ban.

What is expected to happen if one gets searched and the police find SCM's in your posession? What is expected to happen in court?

This is a (potential) felony? Any case law?

Thanks for the resource!

Mark

For Scenario 2: The FFL is probably thinking about magazines that fit only into Post 2000 guns. In those cases there is no way you could have owned a standard capacity magazine prior to the ban. For a gun that was made in 1995, and a new model comes out in 2008 that accepts the same magazine as the 1995 gun, no problem, use the magazine.

The Director
01-29-2009, 8:53 AM
I refuse and will continue to call them what they are
Standard Capacity Magazines

Yeah really already! The terms High Capacity and Assault Weapon are total libtard political terms and I for one won't use them.

The Director
01-29-2009, 8:54 AM
Standard capacity since thats the magazines designed capacity. What is a 10/30 called?

A concession to a defeated gun owner.

MudCamper
01-29-2009, 9:59 AM
It's simple. If you owned the mags prior to 2000, you are fine, even if you rebuild them. The state has the burden of proof.

If you haven't already, read this: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf And then show it to your FFL and educate him.

CAL.BAR
01-29-2009, 10:29 AM
It's simple. If you owned the mags prior to 2000, you are fine, even if you rebuild them. The state has the burden of proof.

If you haven't already, read this: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf And then show it to your FFL and educate him.

I agree totally. And after you are arrested, your magazine(s) confiscated, you pay a lawyer and risk a trial you will be able to testify (or not) on the stand and let the prosecution put into evidence your shiny new gun and shiny new magazine you claim to be rebuilt and then pray the jury (i.e. 12 registered voters unable to get out of jury duty (the majority of which have never seen an AR except in the movies) has the sense to remember that the prosecution has the only burden of proof.

Just remember - there is the law and then there is reality!

Salty
01-29-2009, 10:44 AM
It's simple. If you owned the mags prior to 2000, you are fine, even if you rebuild them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not still legal to buy high caps? I thought only sales, importation, manufacturing, etc were regulated.

I am under the impression that if someone where to sell you high caps within the state and gets caught that they do the time and you keep the mags? Unless of course it was some kind of importation conspiracy type of thing. I know I have read accounts on this forum of dealers accidently selling standard cap magazines with a new pistol and such.

JeffM
01-29-2009, 10:50 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not still legal to buy high caps? I thought only sales, importation, manufacturing, etc were regulated.

I am under the impression that if someone where to sell you high caps within the state and gets caught that they do the time and you keep the mags? Unless of course it was some kind of importation conspiracy type of thing. I know I have read accounts on this forum of dealers accidently selling standard cap magazines with a new pistol and such.

Yes, if done intentionally, you form the second half of a conspiracy to commit a crime, which is a crime in itself.

MudCamper
01-29-2009, 11:02 AM
I agree totally. And after you are arrested, your magazine(s) confiscated, you pay a lawyer and risk a trial you will be able to testify (or not) on the stand and let the prosecution put into evidence your shiny new gun and shiny new magazine you claim to be rebuilt and then pray the jury (i.e. 12 registered voters unable to get out of jury duty (the majority of which have never seen an AR except in the movies) has the sense to remember that the prosecution has the only burden of proof.

Just remember - there is the law and then there is reality!

I disagree with your opinion in this matter. I stocked up on mil surplus 30-rounders in the 90's. Some of my Kay industry mag bodies have totally worn out. The lips are worn and bent beyond repair. I've since replaced them with C Products bodies. I use them all the time without incident. And if for some reason I was charged with 12020 high-cap mag import/manufacture, it would never make it to trial, and I'd sue the arresting officers in civil court.

Let me ask you this. Show me just one example where somebody was arrested or charged with a high-cap magazine offense (where he also wasn't actually violating some other law like a blatent AW violation).

markgrubb
01-29-2009, 11:14 AM
Many thanks to all for the resources. I love this place!

With regards to naming magazine, I think my "Banned Standard Capacity Magazines" is perfect. BSCM's?

Finally, is there any case law of such an arrest and trial?

bwiese
01-29-2009, 11:20 AM
Let me ask you this. Show me just one example where somebody was arrested or charged with a high-cap magazine offense (where he also wasn't actually violating some other law like a blatent AW violation).

CGF is actually working on one. It's pure BS from a bogus traffic stop of a good guy, and will go away without effort, the cop was just plain confused. [Let's let this go without further comment or request for details, OK?]

Those having legit pre-2000 hicap mags should use them without fear. The ability to articulate why they're legal may be helpful.

It is entirely legal to walk down the street with a necklace made from 30rd USGI pre-2000 mags, even if those mags have replacement parts on them.

DDT
01-29-2009, 1:12 PM
CGF is actually working on one. It's pure BS from a bogus traffic stop of a good guy, and will go away without effort, the cop was just plain confused. [Let's let this go without further comment or request for details, OK?]

Nice to get a glimpse at some of the good deeds that CGF is doing even if all cannot be revealed ATM. Hopefully we'll see a "Happy Post" about this in the future.

professorhard
01-29-2009, 1:23 PM
well what is a 25 round butler creek for the ruger 10/22?

or a 10 rounder for a 1911

I would say that those should be called extended capacity magazines since they hold more ammunition than the ones originally designed for the gun. Same with mags like the Beta mag 100 round drums. Standard capacity would be whatever size magazine a gun was originally designed to use. Reduced capacity would be anything holding less than the magazines which the gun was originally designed to use.

yellowfin
01-29-2009, 1:28 PM
It is entirely legal to walk down the street with a necklace made from 30rd USGI pre-2000 mags, even if those mags have replacement parts on them.Working on a new fashion trend, Bill? :D

KCM222
01-29-2009, 1:32 PM
Only issue in a "post ban" gun would be a post 2000 OLL that is not configured such that it can accept 30rd mags without running afoul of evil features issues.

Just to follow up on this point (spell it out), as LOW2000 said, if you are going to use standard cap mags on a post 2000 build be sure you do not have any evil features.

IE, no pistol grip, collapsable buttstock, flash suppressor, etc.

I've spoken with a number of people that believe that as soon as you put a bullet button on a rifle you can do anything you want (wrong); a fixed mag build with a magazine that has a capacity >10 is illegal.

CAL.BAR
01-29-2009, 1:44 PM
I disagree with your opinion in this matter. I stocked up on mil surplus 30-rounders in the 90's. Some of my Kay industry mag bodies have totally worn out. The lips are worn and bent beyond repair. I've since replaced them with C Products bodies. I use them all the time without incident. And if for some reason I was charged with 12020 high-cap mag import/manufacture, it would never make it to trial, and I'd sue the arresting officers in civil court.

Let me ask you this. Show me just one example where somebody was arrested or charged with a high-cap magazine offense (where he also wasn't actually violating some other law like a blatent AW violation).

I am aware of absolutely NO arrests or prosecutions STRICTLY for mag violations (so don't stick that 30 rd into an evil feature OLL) But that DOESN'T make the legal analysis wrong. If an officer believes he has PC to arrest on a mag violation, he CAN arrest you he CAN impound your gun and mags and you WILL possibly be prosecuted by the DA (especially if it's OC)

I'm not saying it's right, or what the chances are, but the legal analysis is correct. While we DON'T have to prove we owned the mag before 2000, we DO have to pay for/sit though the trial if the DA pushes the issue. Plain fact.

And if your defense is " a long time ago I bought a high cap and it completely wore out and then I replaced each and every part with new parts and now have a totally new (but still pre-existing mag?)" I think you have to at least wonder what will happen.

DDT
01-29-2009, 1:56 PM
A brand new gun using brand new looking large-capacity magazines and your lack of owning another weapon that uses the same magazine is a whole lot of circumstantial evidence.

If you have a nice shiny high-capacity magazine in a handgun manufactured after the high-cap legislation and it goes to trial you better have some form of positive defense.

7x57
01-29-2009, 1:57 PM
It is entirely legal to walk down the street with a necklace made from 30rd USGI pre-2000 mags, even if those mags have replacement parts on them.

Ooh! Ooh! I get to do it this time:

:useless:

7x57

Glock22Fan
01-29-2009, 2:06 PM
And if your defense is " a long time ago I bought a high cap and it completely wore out and then I replaced each and every part with new parts and now have a totally new (but still pre-existing mag?)"

I think a better defense would be to repeat over as often as necessary, "This is a pre-ban magazine that I have subsequently repaired. Thus it is totally legal."

DDT
01-29-2009, 2:25 PM
I think a better defense would be to repeat over as often as necessary, "This is a pre-ban magazine that I have subsequently repaired. Thus it is totally legal."

Might be fine for a 60 year old man but isn't likely to fly for a 21 year old.

MudCamper
01-29-2009, 2:28 PM
I'm not saying it's right, or what the chances are, but the legal analysis is correct. While we DON'T have to prove we owned the mag before 2000, we DO have to pay for/sit though the trial if the DA pushes the issue. Plain fact.

There is very little chance a 12020 high-cap mag charge could ever make it to trial. We don't live under the Napoleonic system of justice. We are innocent until proven guilty. The DA would have to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that you imported/manufactured a mag. That's simply impossible to do. Plain Fact.

eighteenninetytwo
01-29-2009, 3:00 PM
Ok another magazine Question. I marreid a girl in 2002, her brother died back in the late 1990s and there was alot of his stuff at her mom's house which just sat there for years, owned by the family/my wife. When I got the chance to go through his stuff I found 30 round Eagle Ruger 10/22 mags and some FAL magazines (standard capacity) I married into the family and they along with soem enfields, a shotgun and a ruger 10/22 were absorbed into my collection. As far as I can see they are all OK to own as they became mine through marriage rather than sale. Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on that. I can't use the FAL mags as my FAL is a recent purchase but I live in hope.

CSACANNONEER
01-29-2009, 3:06 PM
Might be fine for a 60 year old man but isn't likely to fly for a 21 year old.

Why not? I bet, if you ask your father, he will remind you of the mags he bought you for your tenth birthday. I've known many kids who had plenty of aftermarket 10-22 mags, as well as other +10 round mags. So, why is this a problem?

sorensen440
01-29-2009, 3:10 PM
Might be fine for a 60 year old man but isn't likely to fly for a 21 year old.
I'm 26 and it flys for me
I actually did buy them back at the pleasanton gun show prior to the ban.

JeffM
01-29-2009, 3:11 PM
Ok another magazine Question. I marreid a girl in 2002, her brother died back in the late 1990s and there was alot of his stuff at her mom's house which just sat there for years, owned by the family/my wife. When I got the chance to go through his stuff I found 30 round Eagle Ruger 10/22 mags and some FAL magazines (standard capacity) I married into the family and they along with soem enfields, a shotgun and a ruger 10/22 were absorbed into my collection. As far as I can see they are all OK to own as they became mine through marriage rather than sale. Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on that. I can't use the FAL mags as my FAL is a recent purchase but I live in hope.

If you read the law, it looks like for your situation, that no transfer occured that would be prohibited by law.

Sniper3142
01-29-2009, 5:15 PM
And if your defense is " a long time ago I bought a high cap and it completely wore out and then I replaced each and every part with new parts and now have a totally new (but still pre-existing mag?)" I think you have to at least wonder what will happen.

I don't wonder and I don't worry!

I use my registered AW and my 30 round magazines whenever I like!

In fact, I'll be at the ON TARGET range in LAGUNA NIGUEL this SATURDAY between the hours of 13:00 and 15:00. I'll have my RAW and 30 round mags AND NO PAPERWORK.

My only regret is not having my Brand New LMT MRP upper and the REPLACEMENT P-MAG bodies for my magazines yet!

:)

Grow a backbone... please.

"Mess with the best..."

and

"Don't start nothin, won't be Nothin"

;)