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chief003
01-28-2009, 9:12 PM
:confused: Caution, venting and challenge of the status quo

I am an average California (CA) citizen who wanted to purchase a used handgun for the best possible price. I searched my local gun stores and was not able to find the particular firearm I desired.

I then searched the internet and found Gun Broker.com where firearms are bought and sold in a similar format to items sold on eBay. I contacted a seller who had a listing for the item I wanted. The gentleman was from Mississippi and offered the firearm I wanted at a price that I believed to be reasonable. After speaking with him, we reached an agreement for the sale of the weapon.

I talked with my local gun shop about accepting the transfer of the firearm and processing all the necessary paperwork required for the State of California. I subsequently provided their contact information to the seller.

The seller then proceeded to contact more than SIX local Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders capable of transferring the weapon to my local gun shop. To our dismay, not a single Mississippi dealer was willing to register with the State of California as required by CA law and handle the transfer of the weapon. After more than 3 weeks and hours of effort and discussion, we mutually agreed to cancel the sale simply because we could not find a dealer in Mississippi willing to facilitate this transaction at any price.

This entire process has left me angry, frustrated and confused. Many questions have run through my head including;

1. How can California require an out of state federal license holders to register with the state as a dealer? Does this not interfere with interstate commerce – a task explicitly the purview of the federal government?

2. What real penalty could an out of state dealer (a licensed business not conducting business with California – they are not the seller of the firearm in question – only the federally required shipper) receive for shipping a legal firearm into California, under California law without first receiving the shipping authorization from CA DOJ?

3. How does this help make our communities safer? I’m a law abiding citizen who is legally able to own a firearm in this or any other state in country. The firearm in question is legal from sale in this and other states without any further restriction. It’s the same weapon if I buy it down the street or across the country.

4. How does creating a price disparity between in-state and out-of-state firearm prices help any California citizen? Do we not have the right to shop for the best possible terms in any lawful purchase?

5. Who has information from the Firearms Industry about this issue? What is their position?

I welcome your comments and appreciate the opportunity to share some thoughts.

Chief
:thumbsup:

PS - When a bullet leaves the barrel, it does not matter if the firearm from which it came was loaded with one, five, ten, twenty or fifty other bullets. It matters that the round is headed down range awaiting the sudden stop of impacting.

PPS - Talking to our families, friends and communities about their hopes, desires and concerns is the only way to prevent the social ills that lead to violence.

Quiet
01-28-2009, 9:26 PM
FFL dealers can accept shipment of firearms from non-licensed individuals. Non-licensed individual needs to send a copy of their DL/ID with the shipment.

Out-of-state non-licensed individuals do not need to be registered with the CA DOJ.

Not all FFL dealers are willing to accept shipments from non-licensees. Due, to record keeping concerns.



You should have just had the seller ship directly to your FFL dealer.

Librarian
01-28-2009, 9:34 PM
:confused:
1. How can California require an out of state federal license holders to register with the state as a dealer? Does this not interfere with interstate commerce – a task explicitly the purview of the federal government?

Vent acknowledged. Here is DOJ's page on the CFLC process you have encountered:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcoverview.php

And to answer your one question I preserved, California is doing nothing of the kind.

California is regulating CALIFORNIA-Licensed FFLs, imposing a penalty on them if they should receive a firearm from another FFL which is not in the CA database.

Now, is it the intention of Ca to screw with interstate commerce? I'm pretty sure it is. But they've got a pretty good fig-leaf there.

kermit315
01-28-2009, 9:37 PM
yep. I would contact the your dealer and see if he will accept shipment from a non FFL, then if so, contact the seller and see if he still wants to proceed.

Nodda Duma
01-28-2009, 10:02 PM
I agree with your vent about the CFLC process, and as a holder of an FFL03, know first-hand the damage it's done even to *my* ability to collect firearms. I am also frustrated and dismayed at how little *perceived* attention or concern the CFLC gets from California gun owners.

On Calguns here, folks seem to shrug it off as no big deal (that is my perception), or something not even worth fighting. But in my opinion this is one of the most effective ways that gun grabbers have come up with to harm the flow of firearms into this state. Whoever thought up the idea of the CFLC knew *exactly* what feeds the fears of gun dealers outside of California. I could see that conversation now: "Those gun-nuts would run away in droves if every transaction with a California dealer required going to a CA state website to input information! Extra forms to fill out and info to give to the government? A liberal state government at that? Those paranoid SOBs wouldn't touch a deal like that with a 10 foot pole! Haha! Pass me my granola!"

Sheer genius, you have to respect it.

-Jason

ke6guj
01-28-2009, 10:04 PM
chief, that used handgun you found out-of-state, is it on the Roster of not unsafe handguns, or an exempt firearm? If not, you can't get it transfered to you, unless you are LEO.

chief003
01-28-2009, 10:14 PM
First off, thank you very much for taking the time to reply and share your insight.

FFL dealers can accept shipment of firearms from non-licensed individuals. Non-licensed individual needs to send a copy of their DL/ID with the shipment.

Out-of-state non-licensed individuals do not need to be registered with the CA DOJ.

Not all FFL dealers are willing to accept shipments from non-licensees. Due, to record keeping concerns.

You should have just had the seller ship directly to your FFL dealer.

I did ask, if not so directly and this store would not accept the firearm from an out of state individual.


Vent acknowledged. Here is DOJ's page on the CFLC process you have encountered:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcoverview.php

And to answer your one question I preserved, California is doing nothing of the kind.

California is regulating CALIFORNIA-Licensed FFLs, imposing a penalty on them if they should receive a firearm from another FFL which is not in the CA database.

Now, is it the intention of Ca to screw with interstate commerce? I'm pretty sure it is. But they've got a pretty good fig-leaf there.


I took at quick look at the DOJ link you provided, and the program description talks about the need for the CA dealer to be registered in the database so as the "...Shipment Approval letter confirms that the intended recipient of the firearm shipment is properly licensed and listed in the state's database of persons/entities authorized to receive firearm shipments."

Next I looked at the actual law citation, California Penal Code Section 12072(f)(1), to better understand. Here is the first sentence of that code section:

“(f)(1) (A) Commencing July 1, 2008, a person who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code may not deliver, sell, or transfer a firearm to a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code unless, prior to delivery, the person intending to deliver, sell, or transfer the firearm obtains a verification number via the Internet for the intended delivery, sale, or transfer, from the department.”

Now this certainly seems to attempt to regulate the out of state dealer and thus calls into question the interstate commerce issue.

Ok, I now need to go back and fully read the relevant CA code and see if I as joe citizen can reasonably understand the laws for which I am expected to know and correctly understand. (Is it reasonable for the general citizen to accurately interpret the rule of law for which they are held to?).

Again, thank you all for your input on this issue.

chief003
01-28-2009, 10:18 PM
chief, that used handgun you found out-of-state, is it on the Roster of not unsafe handguns, or an exempt firearm? If not, you can't get it transfered to you, unless you are LEO.

It was an On list handgun - an HK P2000 .40SW. (offered with an extra .357 SIG barrel). Really a very nice weapon.

ke6guj
01-28-2009, 10:21 PM
It was an On list handgun - an HK P2000 .40SW. (offered with an extra .357 SIG barrel). Really a very nice weapon.Good, just wanted to make sure you were aware of that.

Now, since the seller couldn't find a dealer willing to ship it to your FFL, and your FFL won't accept shipments from non-licensee, I'd find another local FFL that will accept from non-licensees. You're in Riverside, try Bright Spot Pawn. Good transfer prices and Chris is a good guy. I've never asked him if he'll accept shipments fron non-licensees, but I'd guess the answer is yes.

If not BSP, there's gotta be another FFL in the IE willing to work with you.

hoffmang
01-28-2009, 10:25 PM
On Calguns here, folks seem to shrug it off as no big deal (that is my perception), or something not even worth fighting.

Not talking about it doesn't mean that things aren't being done to ameliorate the situation...

-Gene

Nodda Duma
01-28-2009, 10:26 PM
There's also the option to send it to a go-between. Doesn't Freakshow do that?

Not talking about it doesn't mean that things aren't being done to ameliorate the situation...



Yep, but you know that saying: The squeaky wheel is the one that gets oiled...

-Jason

chief003
01-28-2009, 10:29 PM
Good, just wanted to make sure you were aware of that.

Now, since the seller couldn't find a dealer willing to ship it to your FFL, and your FFL won't accept shipments from non-licensee, I'd find another local FFL that will accept from non-licensees. You're in Riverside, try Bright Spot Pawn. Good transfer prices and Chris is a good guy. I've never asked him if he'll accept shipments fron non-licensees, but I'd guess the answer is yes.

If not BSP, there's gotta be another FFL in the IE willing to work with you.

Good idea! Thanks.

I didn't think that a Pawn Shop would/could provide that type of service.

Thanks again,
Chief

ke6guj
01-28-2009, 10:33 PM
Good idea! Thanks.

I didn't think that a Pawn Shop would/could provide that type of service.

Thanks again,
Chief

Some pawn shops still have FFLs and can still buy/sell/pawn firearms, but not like the old days when just about every pawn shop had firearms.

http://www.brightspotpawn.com/

And in the future, as Noda mentioned above, if you get a seller that won't ship to CA for any reason, we have out-of-state FFLs that act as middlemen so that you can have the seller ship to him, and then he will reship it legally to your local FFL for a small fee + shipping.

Librarian
01-29-2009, 2:08 AM
Next I looked at the actual law citation, California Penal Code Section 12072(f)(1), to better understand. Here is the first sentence of that code section:

“(f)(1) (A) Commencing July 1, 2008, a person who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code may not deliver, sell, or transfer a firearm to a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code unless, prior to delivery, the person intending to deliver, sell, or transfer the firearm obtains a verification number via the Internet for the intended delivery, sale, or transfer, from the department.”

Now this certainly seems to attempt to regulate the out of state dealer and thus calls into question the interstate commerce issue.

Nope - that's why it's such a good fig leaf. It regulates the IN-state dealers; 12083(c)(1) says it's a misdemeanor for the CA FFL to receive a shipment from any other FFL unless the shipment is accompanied by one of the State's 'magic numbers'.
(c) (1) Any person licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing
with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code as a dealer,
pawnbroker, importer, or manufacturer of firearms whose licensed
premises are within this state shall not import or receive firearms
from any source unless listed on the centralized list of firearms
dealers pursuant to Section 12071, or the centralized list of
exempted federal firearms licensees pursuant to subdivision (a), or
the centralized list of firearms manufacturers pursuant to
subdivision (f) of Section 12086.
(2) A violation of this subdivision is a misdemeanor.

There's no penalty for shipping without the number. Penalties apply only to the receiving CA FFLs.

Out of state dealers are free not to participate. As you have discovered, many are exercising that freedom.

It should be challengeable at some point, but it's not so obvious on its face that it oversteps the bounds of Congress's power to regulate interstate commerce.