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BaronW
01-27-2009, 1:20 PM
I recently got to try out a Kimber 84M tactical bolt action rifle with a 10x40 super sniper and loved it. I'd like to get into precision rifle shooting but without quite that much buy-in. I'm looking at one of those savage rifles in .308 if I can get the new model with an accutrigger and accustock (11FHN). Anyone ever used one of those? Are there other models I should be considering?

What would you build in .308 if you were a poor college student? :)

Timberwolf
01-27-2009, 1:24 PM
If I was a poor collecge student I'd search the gun rags for a 700P with base rings and a Leupy 3.5-10X40 on it. They can still be had for around 1K - 1.5K complete and its a turn key starter set.

If you can't find one of the old pkgs described above get a Remmy 700SPS, top it with TPS rings and base and a Super Sniper 10X scope. Another set up for around 1K

Overkill
01-27-2009, 1:28 PM
What is your budget for the entire package (scope, rings and base included)? That will help the recommendations start flowing.

stphnman20
01-27-2009, 1:30 PM
Check out Turners. They have a special on a 700P.

BaronW
01-27-2009, 1:54 PM
Let's say I'm -really- cheap and trying to keep it under $650 to start shooting.

That 700P is interesting, but isn't 20" short for a .308? I thought they were usually 24" or so.

x-ricer
01-27-2009, 1:56 PM
you could start with a remington 770 or 710....can be had for $400 or so and come with a scope.

i think they are great starter rifles...

stphnman20
01-27-2009, 1:57 PM
Let's say I'm -really- cheap and trying to keep it under $750 to start shooting.

That 700P is interesting, but isn't 20" short for a .308? I thought they were usually 24" or so.
Depends on what you want to do with it.

Excuse me, it's an SPS tactical. Pretty much the same as the 700P I think.

X-NewYawker
01-27-2009, 2:01 PM
Howa 1500 Axiom package

http://www.howa1500.com/category/810-Howa_1500_Rifle_308_Winchester_Caliber.aspx

http://demigodllc.com/articles/howa-axiom-burris-xtr/

tmuller
01-27-2009, 3:00 PM
I recently purchased a Savage 10FCP to get into precision shooting, won't need to upgrade stocks that way, for just over $700. The rifle shoots much better than I do. Savage, Rem 700, Tikka, all should give you a very good shooter out f the box around your price range. You extended cost will be the glass...

dfletcher
01-27-2009, 3:10 PM
Let's say I'm -really- cheap and trying to keep it under $650 to start shooting.

That 700P is interesting, but isn't 20" short for a .308? I thought they were usually 24" or so.


If you know your guns well, then I'd say buy used. There are lots of 2nd hand 308 target rifles out there if you scrounge around. I picked up a Remington 40X for all of $600.00 about 2 years ago. I doubt I'm all that lucky or a great deal maker. Poke around a bit, you'll find a good deal.

xibunkrlilkidsx
01-27-2009, 3:15 PM
if you want to start from scratch and build it up on your own. or looking for pre owned.

starting scratch and want to build start with a rem 700 SPS varmit.


I shot a Savage 10fp and my 700 was more accurate for me. But that new bedding system that savage has looks interesting.

Im in the same boat you are poor college student lol.
$600 for the rifle Rem700 SPS varmit
$300 for my nikon buckmaster from midwayusa, i dont care who you are but not everyone needs a $900 scope to shoot well. Which is a big debate. i could not be happier with my buckmaster, 500rds and the only change ive made in my zero was from being near sea level to going up about 1000' in elevation while other people laugh at me for not having a leupold, nightforce, Zeiss, Swavorski on my target rifle.
$60 Leupold medium QRW
$15 weaver 1 piece base.
and i was shooting sub MOA
threw on a bell and carlson stock for $220 and shoot under 1/2moa

Timberwolf
01-27-2009, 3:16 PM
Let's say I'm -really- cheap and trying to keep it under $650 to start shooting.

That 700P is interesting, but isn't 20" short for a .308? I thought they were usually 24" or so.

A 700P has a 26" barrel the LTR has a fluted 20". The good news is you're interested in precision shooting, the bad news is you will not do it for a budget of 650.00 for rifle, base, rings and scope.

You will need a minimal of 1K unless you want a low end rifle with cheap rings and scope that may not survive 100 rounds.

FMJBT
01-27-2009, 3:24 PM
"Under $650.00" and "Precision Rifle" are pretty much mutually exclusive terms. Decent rifles can be had for around $650, but for the most part a complete package is going to cost around $800 and up once you factor in optics and mounts. Best bang for the buck IMHO is going to be a Tikka T-3 varmint. Not nearly the aftermarket support that Remington 700's have, but it doesn't really need it either :) If it were me:

Tikka T-3 Varmint 308:
http://www.stanleysproshop.com/Beretta_Tikka_T3_Varmint_308_W_P11065.cfm
EGW 20moa base for T-3:
http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=221
TPS "TSR" 1" low rings:
http://www.tpsproducts.com/product_info.php?cPath=14_15_17&products_id=51
Bushnell 3200 series 10X40 fixed mil dot:
http://www.arcadian-sales.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=32-1040M&Category_Code=Bushnell_3200_Rifle_Scopes&Store_Code=AS

BaronW
01-27-2009, 3:54 PM
Hm, I was worried that would be the case. What if I wanted a reasonably accurate rifle that I could upgrade later? There are cheapish savage rifles such as this one (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_62/products_id/78507) that fit my budget. I imagine I'd eventually outgrow the scope and replace the stock with a bell & carlson. I can deal with those things when I graduate and (hopefully) get a decent-paying job.

Any idea what kind of accuracy the rifle is capable of with the throwaway scope and stock?
Also, how hard is it to upgrade barrels on a Savage 10 action?

Darklyte27
01-27-2009, 4:13 PM
check out my Savage in my sig, I was on a budget and it came to just about 1k$ for everything.

WHTXJ89
01-27-2009, 4:46 PM
look at a Tika. the rifle runs about $450.00 and you could find a good 3x9x40 scope for about $200.00-$250.00.

BigBamBoo
01-27-2009, 5:13 PM
.........

Scout106
01-27-2009, 6:15 PM
Since you are on a budget, why not start out with a .233 for affordable ammo and more shooting. The Remington 700 SPS Varmint is considered to be a budget entry level sniper/tactical/long range rifle by many sniper folk and has been reviewed as such.

darksands
01-27-2009, 6:24 PM
I just picked up a Weatherby Vanguard in .308 Win for ~500.00 for gun, DROS, fess, etc... at Turners in West Covina. Leupold STD rings and one piece base for ~50.00 and a Eagle Eye Optics 3-12x40 scope at the Costa Mesa gun show for 100 bucks. I am planning on a Nikon Prostaff 3-9x40 in the future and that is ~150.00.
Current setup is ~650.00 OTD
650-700 for a Rifle with everything needed is pretty good IMHO

Flying Bones
01-27-2009, 6:26 PM
:rofl: In the same situation...
Thinking I should have paid the $500 for 223 sps with leupold on here last week. DOH!

Dragunov
01-27-2009, 7:06 PM
you could start with a remington 770 or 710....can be had for $400 or so and come with a scope.

i think they are great starter rifles...

For $650 you might find a used 700. Forget the 770 or 710 they are out together as budget rifles by remington and are not great. You'd be better off with the following:

Stevens for about $300 (It's the old Savage 110fp and you can't beat that!).
The new Marlin for about the same has alot of potential.
Savage for about $400, You can't beat the out-of-the-box accuracy.

You can get a Weatherby SUB .MOA Vanguard for about $700. That's prolly your best bet.

Dragunov
01-27-2009, 7:33 PM
I recently got to try out a Kimber 84M tactical bolt action rifle with a 10x40 super sniper and loved it. I'd like to get into precision rifle shooting but without quite that much buy-in. I'm looking at one of those savage rifles in .308 if I can get the new model with an accutrigger and accustock (11FHN). Anyone ever used one of those? Are there other models I should be considering?

What would you build in .308 if you were a poor college student? :)

My Dad has an old J.C.Higgins bolt action 30-06 he bought for $75 at a pawn shop. He put a Unertle scope on it ( he already had that but I don't remember which one it was though), re-barreled it w/a match barrel, trued the bolt face, bedded the action and trigger work resulting in a 2.5 pull. total spent including rifle? $600 - the scope. It will consistantly fire .75 MOA all day with 150 gr factory loads and better with his hand loads. The point is: If you do it right, a turd CAN be polished into a tack driver if you want to put the effort in it. Any good out of the box rifle can be worked into a great shooter. Get one that you can handle well caliber wise, fit it to you, fire lap it, trigger work it, bed it properly, get a reasonably good scope, tighten it up and shoot the crap out of it. 90% of a rifles accuracy is the MARKSMAN and not the rifle, so practice, practice PRACTICE!. ANY rifle can shoot well if you do the following: PRACTICE, Know the ballistics of the round/caliber you're using, Know your scope if you use one. Make the weapon part of you every time you pick it up. it should feel as natural to you as your hand, leg or taking a pee!

'Nuff sed!

devildog999
01-27-2009, 7:38 PM
I recently got to try out a Kimber 84M tactical bolt action rifle with a 10x40 super sniper and loved it. I'd like to get into precision rifle shooting but without quite that much buy-in. I'm looking at one of those savage rifles in .308 if I can get the new model with an accutrigger and accustock (11FHN). Anyone ever used one of those? Are there other models I should be considering?

What would you build in .308 if you were a poor college student? :)

I'd find a way to afford a nice Remington 700 build ;)

264charlie
01-27-2009, 7:42 PM
Maybe a good idea on gunbroker http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=121644991

slappomatt
01-27-2009, 8:04 PM
Savage is the only way to go. by far the easiest to swap barrels on. and they are more accurate out of the box.

sb_pete
01-27-2009, 8:08 PM
My starter broke college student package that I bought about two years ago was
-Savage 10FP .308 26"bbl with Choate stock ~$600 after DROS
The Savage Accu-trigger is way better than the Rem 700 triggers, even the new ones. The new savages are even adaptable to take mag-fed bottom metal down the line (mine is not). There is way more aftermarket support for the 700's, but there is a decent amount for the Savages as well. I got the Choate stock because it was cheaper than the HS-Precision or the McMillan, but WAYYY better than the old Savage stock. The new Accu-stock looks interesting though. It might be a good option. Also be sure to check out Sharp Shooter Supply (http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/)as they have alot of cool stuff for savages which you could get later on down the line.

-Millett TRS-1 4-16x50mm (30mm body) scope <$300
The Millett TRS-1 is a great scope for the money. The newer LRS-1 6-24x56mm (35mm body) has had teething troubles but the 3rd gens seem to be holding up well. The TRS-1 has been very solid. The glass is great for the money, but it is definitely not an S&B or anything. Mine has survived a few (at least three from waist/tabletop height) drops onto hard dirt (and a rather hard and unfortunate fall onto the scope itself in my living room - carpet covered concrete). It maintained zero through all of them. It has also maintained zero through the 3k or so rds I have put through it thus far. The TRS-1, TRS-2 and LRS-1 are Chinese built but inspected by Millett's office/lab/factory in Long Beach (where they build the Zoom-dot and a few other items). They are good scopes. More importantly, they have had great customer service and when you call, you get a hold of a Millett employee in California who knows their stuff and speaks English. That said, they were bought out by Bushnell, so that great CS may start to slip or change. We'll see. Steve Millett is still with the company and still posts on Snipers Hide.

The Super Snipers are also great scopes, but I prefer the variable. For the same money I prefer the TRS-1. There are lots of good used Nikons and Leupolds for the same money as well. The Falcon's are also highly rated but will run you another $150-$200+. Other ones to check out are newcomers Wonder Optics, Vortex Optics and a few others I can't remember.

Liberty Optics (http://www.libertyoptics.com/) is a great seller. Owner Scott Berish posts on this sight and on Snipers Hide. He is a great guy and has a good selection and great prices.

Other good places to buy optics are SWFA (http://www.swfa.com/), Optics Planet (http://www.opticsplanet.com/), and the Sniper Country PX (http://www.snipercountrypx.com/default.htm)

-Millett picatinny rail one piece base ~$40
- Millett Rings ~$30 -
I originally bought the tactical rings but found them too tall so I just used std ones. They have retained zero after a few falls. They are not crazy military sturdy like Seekins rings or what not, but they work quite well and will get the job done. DO NOT buy cheapo rings and bases, but you don't need to spend $200+ on mounting gear either. That said expect to spend $75-$100 for the kind of quality that will hold zero and survive recoil (even if they wouldn't survive the sand box).

-Shooters Ridge bipod - ~$50
It is an imitation Harris, I only bought it because the store was all out of the Harris bipods in the size I wanted. They are not as good as Harris. In fact they kind of suck and fall apart after a days shooting. But if you take out the bolts and re-tighten them with lok-tite, they will hold. If you need a bipod, you can go this way. You would be better off learning to shoot off a pack though.

BARREL LENGTH:
A 24"-26" barrel was long considered the standard for good accuracy with a .308. This is changing. The reason a longer barrel works well is because it gives more space for the gunpowder burning inside and propelling the bullet out to fully combust. If more of the powder burns, the bullet is propelled faster. All other things being equal, a faster bullet out of the barrel will maintain speed above the transonic zone longer and thus be more accurate to longer ranges. The transonic zone is the when a projectile begins to transition from supersonic to subsonic. When it does this, it becomes less stable and thus becomes less accurate. Current projectiles and powder are such that with many 175gr and 155gr bullets, .308 is able to remain supersonic out to 900-1000yds out of an 18-20" barrel. That said, a shorter barrel is a stiffer barrel (think of breaking a long piece of spagetti in half, then think of breaking a stubby piece in half). Because of that, shorter barrels are inherently more accurate than longer barrels, provided they are long enough to allow enough powder to burn to get the projectile moving fast enough to stay supersonic out to your intended range. With .308, a 20" bbl is fine unless you are trying to get out to 1000 yds plus, in which case you should be looking at 300 WIn Mag or .338LM anyways. For your purposes, a 20" bbl would be fine. It would also be lighter and handier than a longer barrel. I have a 26" barrel and I like it quite a bit. The next .308 I buy will be 20" though. What I am really saying is, buy the rifle you like and don't worry if it is 20, 22, 24 or 26".

Hope that helps,
-Pete

muskater
01-27-2009, 8:12 PM
Not to thread jack, but in regards to .243. Are there any factory loaded match target loads?

brian24
01-27-2009, 8:17 PM
check out this thread. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=148462

i would go w/ a .223 for cost of ammo and low recoil (can shoot it allllll day). i put $1400 into that rifle and it will shoot nice groups. .308 will reach out further, but ammo cost more.

InsightsBest
01-27-2009, 10:10 PM
I would go Remy 700 sps v or a 700p without a doubt!! just spend the $$$$ on the rifle and get your optics later!! Plus it will give you time to get to know your rifle :D

ar15barrels
01-28-2009, 12:15 AM
Let's say I'm -really- cheap and trying to keep it under $650 to start shooting.

Do you want to buy a gun you will grow with, or just something to start that you will eventually sell later to upgrade to something better.

I always suggest starting with a good gun that you can upgrade.
That realistically means a 700.
The SPS Tactical will be fine out to 600yds.
If you want to shoot to 1000yds, a longer barre is in order, especially if you want to shoot at low elevation.

The best course would be to save up a few hundred dollars more, get a 700P and stick a Bushnell Elite 3200 10x mildot scope on it.
The next thing to buy is a reloading setup because shooting factory ammo will eat you out of house and home if you REALLY want to shoot the gun.

If you are just looking for something that looks cool, the SPS tactical is fine.

rksimple
01-28-2009, 6:40 AM
The best course would be to save up a few hundred dollars more, get a 700P and stick a Bushnell Elite 3200 10x mildot scope on it.
The next thing to buy is a reloading setup because shooting factory ammo will eat you out of house and home if you REALLY want to shoot the gun.



This is the best advice. Don't get a savage (from a 3x savage owner), don't get a 243, don't put surplus ammo through it, etc. If you're really cheap, you could go with the 700 sps varmint and upgrade the stock later. With an EGW 20 MOA base and tps rings (even something as lowly as the weaver quad locks) you'll have a reliable setup that you can learn with. Anything cheaper will most likely result in headaches.

Army GI
01-28-2009, 6:42 AM
This is the best advice. Don't get a savage (from a 3x savage owner), don't get a 243, don't put surplus ammo through it, etc. If you're really cheap, you could go with the 700 sps varmint and upgrade the stock later. With an EGW 20 MOA base and tps rings (even something as lowly as the weaver quad locks) you'll have a reliable setup that you can learn with. Anything cheaper will most likely result in headaches.

+1 on that

dfletcher
01-28-2009, 7:31 AM
This is the best advice. Don't get a savage (from a 3x savage owner), don't get a 243, don't put surplus ammo through it, etc. If you're really cheap, you could go with the 700 sps varmint and upgrade the stock later. With an EGW 20 MOA base and tps rings (even something as lowly as the weaver quad locks) you'll have a reliable setup that you can learn with. Anything cheaper will most likely result in headaches.

My only gripe with the Remington 700 varmint is (at least when I bought mine) the wooden stock. Terrible configuration that's about midway between sporter style and a real varmint/target. I bought an older Remington 40X stock from Numrich - grand total, $41.00 rail included - restored & bedded it and it's fine.

Regarding Savage, I think they're Accutrigger is much over rated and there's not nearly the after market stuff compared to the 700, but their 12 BVSS has a very nice target type laminated stock, sits on the bench very well.

TheBundo
01-28-2009, 7:38 AM
If I was a poor college student, I'd set up a Mosin Nagant with scope, etc. 1400 yard kill by a Russian sniper in WW2, is that accurate enough?

rksimple
01-28-2009, 7:59 AM
...Mosin Nagant with scope, etc. 1400 yard kill by a Russian sniper in WW2, is that accurate enough?

Knowing whats involved getting a 30 cal bullet to 1400 yards accurately (and supersonic), especially with the optics and ammo of the time, one could easily surmise that that shot was complete, dumb luck. The Mosin Nagant, with modern ammo, would have a hard time hitting small targets at half that distance.

In the surplus arena, rifles like the k31 or a 41b (6.5x55) mauser would be decent choices.

kyoung05
01-28-2009, 9:19 AM
Well, if you're willing to re-consider the caliber, what about a Swiss K31? Sure, it isn't a new-fangled rifle in a cool synthetic stock, but they are very accurate, you can find them for under $250, a scope mount is about $60, and the rest of your budget can be spent on rings and a scope. The Swiss surplus GP11 ammo is considered by many to be match grade, and is relatively inexpensive as well. Just a thought...

nobs11
01-28-2009, 9:34 AM
If I was a poor college student, I'd set up a Mosin Nagant with scope, etc. 1400 yard kill by a Russian sniper in WW2, is that accurate enough?

:rolleyes:

Surplus rifles have their place. When I was in college I'd shoot nothing but surplus guns. You could buy Enfields from Big 5 cash and carry. Most surplus guns are battle accuracy. That means about 4-5 MOA consistently. If you are lucky and have good ammo, you may get one that shoots about 1.5MOA. But distance shooting is a whole different game.

Dragunov
01-28-2009, 10:26 AM
:rolleyes:

Surplus rifles have their place. When I was in college I'd shoot nothing but surplus guns. You could buy Enfields from Big 5 cash and carry. Most surplus guns are battle accuracy. That means about 4-5 MOA consistently. If you are lucky and have good ammo, you may get one that shoots about 1.5MOA. But distance shooting is a whole different game.

MUCH AGREED! Stay away from milsurps unless you find a nice sniper variant and it will most CERTAINLY cost you more than $600 if it's authentic. I bought a milsurp Mauser model 95 rechambered for 7.62 NATO many years ago. Nice looking rifle, fairly tight. Fired a 7in. MOA/100yds from a bench. I wasn't too pissed as I only spent $45 for the rifle, but I did expect at least 4-5 MOA. I gave it to a friend of mine who displays it in his gun rack and never shoots it. It is however a fine looking "weapon" (would make a GREAT club!).

BaronW
01-28-2009, 11:41 AM
I'm pretty set on only getting a current military caliber, so .243 is out. .223 is probably a better choice for my needs (It'll be a while before the 600 yard gong needs to be afraid of me) but I rather like the idea of 168gr .30 bullets instead of 55gr .22 bullets. Realistically, though, I'm just going to be punching paper with it so the cheaper ammo is better. What kind of .223 twist should I go for? Most stuff appears to be 1:9, which is 55gr-ish, right?

I like the idea of getting a basic Rem 700 and eventually building it into my tactical dream-rifle (win the lottery, buy AICS), but I got the impression changing barrels required a gunsmith. Is that expensive? Do I need a bull barrel to use a varmint/tactical channel stock, or can I have an extremely free-floated sporter barrel?

As far as mil-surp, I already have a K98 and find it is indeed only battle-accurate. I'd really rather go for something current production.

Thanks for all the input, everyone! :)

dfletcher
01-28-2009, 11:56 AM
My experience is that most bolt action 223s are of the 1 in 12 twist rate which will get you to 55 grains with no problem, maybe 60/62. Someone correct me if I'm too optimistic on that please.

Bit of an odd choice, but my only target 223 is the Ruger 77 varmint/target model. It's about 5 years old, has an excellent adjustable trigger and a very good target stock. Wide front and a straight, high comb. I also figure that whenever I tell people I use a Ruger 77 as a target rifle they figure my targets are pie plate sized, Rugers haven't exactly held a great rep for accuracy, but that's not the case. With Sierra 52 BTHP and IMR 4198 or Win 748 I always get the 5 shots touching or smaller at 100 yds. I'm not exactly a serious shooter, that's fine for me. The Ruger does have a 1 in 12 twist, so you do have a bullet weight limitation.

rksimple
01-28-2009, 12:17 PM
I'm pretty set on only getting a current military caliber, so .243 is out. .223 is probably a better choice for my needs (It'll be a while before the 600 yard gong needs to be afraid of me) but I rather like the idea of 168gr .30 bullets instead of 55gr .22 bullets. Realistically, though, I'm just going to be punching paper with it so the cheaper ammo is better. What kind of .223 twist should I go for? Most stuff appears to be 1:9, which is 55gr-ish, right?

I like the idea of getting a basic Rem 700 and eventually building it into my tactical dream-rifle (win the lottery, buy AICS), but I got the impression changing barrels required a gunsmith. Is that expensive? Do I need a bull barrel to use a varmint/tactical channel stock, or can I have an extremely free-floated sporter barrel?

As far as mil-surp, I already have a K98 and find it is indeed only battle-accurate. I'd really rather go for something current production.

Thanks for all the input, everyone! :)

Most bolt rifle 223's will have a 1 in 9 twist or slower. Don't let that dissuade you as most will stabilize the 77gr stuff without issue. And if 600 yards is your limit for killing paper, the 223 will suffice. Get black hills blue box 68gr ammo and be happy.

You don't need to have a bull barrel for a tac stock. Its just floated more. Look at a rem varmint contour barrel in an AICS. PLENTY of room around the barrel. Its not an issue.

brian24
01-28-2009, 12:20 PM
my sps varmit is shooting pretty good w/ 55gr, haven't tried anything heavier yet. was shooting pumkins on a hill top at 450 yds w/ no problem using 55gr v-max reloads (10 mph winds +/-). here are some pics of the gun, range (notice the 3 paper targets setup and then the hill, each target was set at 100 yds) and a group from that day at 100yds.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34727883@N05/3227160447/

BaronW
01-30-2009, 3:25 PM
Well, crap. Looks like this whole project is put on hold until California is ready to mail out tax refunds for real.

fusionstar
01-30-2009, 4:54 PM
Well, crap. Looks like this whole project is put on hold until California is ready to mail out tax refunds for real.

im not getting a big check if I do get one. But thats okay.. that only means I didn't get my *** taxed to death during the year.