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View Full Version : AOW or SBS/SBR What does that means……?


YoungGun2
01-27-2009, 1:22 PM
I heard a guy at a gun shop saying something about getting an “AOW or SBS/SBR” here in CA now... What does that means……?

yellowfin
01-27-2009, 1:26 PM
SBS is short barrel shotgun, SBR is short barrel rifle, AOW is all other weapons, meaning guns that don't fall into clear boundaries of rifle or shotgun, usually SBS or pistol with a vertical foregrip. AOW definition is weird. All 3 terms came from the National Firearms Act of 1934, and are items for which you need to fill out a special form and pay a tax. Hopefully in the coming years the NFA will be overturned in part or in whole or weakened.

ke6guj
01-27-2009, 1:26 PM
AOW = Any other Weapon, stands for unusual stuff that doesn't fit into the common catagories.
SBS/SBR = Short barreled Shotgun/Rifle. Shotguns and rifles with barrels under 18" for shotguns and 16" for rifles, or with an overal length under 26".

Was this a guy working for a shop saying this, or a customer? Would be nice to find dealers willing to transfer AOWs.

Check out the thread in my sig for more info.

CCWFacts
01-27-2009, 2:24 PM
Here was the short summary we finally worked out on what's viable here:


AOWs, but not pen-guns
SBRs / SBSs which are C&Rs
But note that the AWB still applies, making things strange for the SBXs, because even though the barrel can be short, the OAL requirement still is in place from the AWB, so it could be necessary to put an extra-long stock on it for example


I'm most interested in the AOW aspect of this. I don't see the point of going through the hassle of the NFA to get a SBX but then still having the OAL requirement.

ke6guj
01-27-2009, 2:39 PM
remember that the AW OAL only applies to semi-automatic centerfire rifles. Any other SBS/SBR would not have a minimum OAL. Yes, I know, basically any SBR worth doing would be semi-auto and centerfire :(

CCWFacts
01-27-2009, 3:00 PM
remember that the AW OAL only applies to semi-automatic centerfire rifles. Any other SBS/SBR would not have a minimum OAL. Yes, I know, basically any SBR worth doing would be semi-auto and centerfire :(

I didn't realize that. I can think of some non-semi-auto rifles that would be worth doing, and certainly some shotguns would be worth it.

There are a few other strange factors:


There must be a few people who have C&R RAWs, either who registered them pre-2000, or maybe LEOs who reg'd them after. Those people could make NFA SBR C&R RAWs from them.
41 years from now, my reg'd XM-15 will be a C&R!

YoungGun2
01-27-2009, 4:11 PM
ke6guj

Was this a guy working for a shop saying this, or a customer? Would be nice to find dealers willing to transfer AOWs.

No it was an old timer that was just and looking around...Thanks for the info guys.....

aplinker
01-27-2009, 4:21 PM
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1337vending
01-27-2009, 4:28 PM
remember that the AW OAL only applies to semi-automatic centerfire rifles. Any other SBS/SBR would not have a minimum OAL. Yes, I know, basically any SBR worth doing would be semi-auto and centerfire :(

Hmmm I was thinking about this again, but is a SBR still considered a "Rifle" per CA penal code if it doesn't have a buttstock? My NFA-fu is weak :p

CCWFacts
01-27-2009, 5:22 PM
Hmmm I was thinking about this again, but is a SBR still considered a "Rifle" per CA penal code if it doesn't have a buttstock? My NFA-fu is weak :p

But I think needs to have a buttstock to be a rifle under the NFA's SBR. Otherwise it would be "something else", in other words, an AOW.

Quiet
01-27-2009, 5:28 PM
But I think needs to have a buttstock to be a rifle under the NFA's SBR. Otherwise it would be "something else", in other words, an AOW.

Under Federal law...
A firearm made from a rifle that has a barrel length shorter than 16" and/or an overall length shorter than 26" is considered a SBR.

CCWFacts
01-27-2009, 5:38 PM
Under Federal law...
A firearm made from a rifle that has a barrel length shorter than 16" and/or an overall length shorter than 26" is considered a SBR.

So let's say you had a C&R, like an SKS that's a C&R for example. You decide you want it to be a SBR. You aim for a configuration of:


Barrel is chopped to, say, 14"
Butstock is removed entirely, and the OAL is less than 26"


It's no longer a "rifle" in California because it can't be fired from the shoulder, but it is a SBR because it started life as a rifle and has a barrel < 16" and a OAL < 26".

Would that work?

I wouldn't want such a thing, but it's an interesting concept if it worked. I guess it would be some kind of Bubbaed "Krink" style SKS, which someone would probably find exciting.

wildhawker
01-27-2009, 5:59 PM
Your avatar and screen name are tripping me out.

I think you're lost.

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Zing!

1337vending
01-27-2009, 6:29 PM
So let's say you had a C&R, like an SKS that's a C&R for example. You decide you want it to be a SBR. You aim for a configuration of:


Barrel is chopped to, say, 14"
Butstock is removed entirely, and the OAL is less than 26"


It's no longer a "rifle" in California because it can't be fired from the shoulder, but it is a SBR because it started life as a rifle and has a barrel < 16" and a OAL < 26".

Would that work?

I wouldn't want such a thing, but it's an interesting concept if it worked. I guess it would be some kind of Bubbaed "Krink" style SKS, which someone would probably find exciting.

M1 Carbine "pistol" (SBR) with detachable magazine? Although I seem to remember somewhere a pistol being defined (for purposes of AW regs) as barrel under 16" that isn't shoulder fired. :mad: Therefore pistol AW regs would apply.

Bah, doesn't seem like there'd be any usable loopholes. :mad:

Quiet
01-27-2009, 6:42 PM
So let's say you had a C&R, like an SKS that's a C&R for example. You decide you want it to be a SBR. You aim for a configuration of:


Barrel is chopped to, say, 14"
Butstock is removed entirely, and the OAL is less than 26"


It's no longer a "rifle" in California because it can't be fired from the shoulder, but it is a SBR because it started life as a rifle and has a barrel < 16" and a OAL < 26".

Would that work?

I wouldn't want such a thing, but it's an interesting concept if it worked. I guess it would be some kind of Bubbaed "Krink" style SKS, which someone would probably find exciting.

Won't work.
The SKS would be considered a SBR and a Assault Weapon in CA.
Feds will consider it a SBR.

Penal Code 12020
(c)(2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Penal Code 12276.1
(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

Quiet
01-27-2009, 6:48 PM
If it ever was a rifle, it's still considered a rifle.
Making the rifle smaller (reducing barrel length to udner 16" and/or reducing OAL to under 26") and/or making look like a handgun, makes what you created a SBR. Because it was made from a rifle.

1337vending
01-27-2009, 6:56 PM
Won't work.
It'll be considered a SBR and a Assault Weapon in CA.
Feds will consider it a SBR.

From the same penal code section, in ke6guj's (very useful) thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=82693)


(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
(2) The manufacture, possession, transportation or sale of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles when authorized by the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 12095) of this chapter and not in violation of federal law.
(7) Any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the items pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(8) Any other weapon as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons pursuant to the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. …. The exemption provided in this subdivision does not apply to pen guns.



...
12020b7 allows possession if the firearm is a C&R as defined by the NFA and is properly registered per the NFA.
...


The real question is, do pistol AW regs apply because (1) it's not shoulder fired and (2) the barrel length is under 16"... Someone correct me if I'm off my rocker.

1337vending
01-27-2009, 6:59 PM
If it ever was a rifle, it's still considered a rifle.
Making the rifle smaller (reducing barrel length to udner 16" and/or reducing OAL to under 26") and/or making look like a handgun, makes what you created a SBR. Because it was made from a rifle.

This is all assuming you file the Form 1 to make a SBR. I'm aware of the "once a rifle, always a rifle" stance of the Feds. However, that doesn't seem to be the case for CA...:confused:

Quiet
01-27-2009, 7:03 PM
This is all assuming you file the Form 1 to make a SBR. I'm aware of the "once a rifle, always a rifle" stance of the Feds. However, that doesn't seem to be the case for CA...:confused:

When did CA become immune to Federal law?

It was made from a rifle, so it's still a rifle.
Since, it's in CA and it's made from a rifle, rifle assault weapon regs still apply [pc 12276.1(a)(3)].
It not being classified as a SBR in CA, is dependent on if the BATFE approves his Form 1 to make it a SBR. Since, registered C&R SBRs are not considered SBRs in CA. [pc 12020(b)(7)]
Feds will still consider it a SBR. It's a registered SBR, if he gets approved, and it's an unregistered SBR, if he does not have approval to make it.

CSACANNONEER
01-27-2009, 7:13 PM
remember that the AW OAL only applies to semi-automatic centerfire rifles. Any other SBS/SBR would not have a minimum OAL. Yes, I know, basically any SBR worth doing would be semi-auto and centerfire :(

I'm going out on a limb because, I really don't know what I'm talking about here. But, what about:

A C&R revolver with a shoulder stock.
A C&R revolving rifle with the barrel cut down.
A C&R SBR lever gun? There are some original examples around.
A C&R SBR pump action might be pretty cool too.

1337vending
01-27-2009, 7:17 PM
When did CA become immune to Federal law?

It was made from a rifle, so it's still a rifle.
Since, it's in CA and it's made from a rifle, rifle assault weapon regs still apply [pc 12276.1(a)(3)].
It not being classified as a SBR in CA, is dependent on if the BATFE approves his Form 1 to make it a SBR. Since, registered C&R SBRs are not considered SBRs in CA. [pc 12020(b)(7)]
Feds will still consider it a SBR. It's a registered SBR, if he gets approved, and it's an unregistered SBR, if he does not have approval to make it.

Well, it looks like this discussion is really moot, after digging through the PC some...


12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be
interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(emphasis mine)

So (to me) that means anything with a barrel under 16" is considered a "pistol" and a "revolver" and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"


(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun,"
"pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a
short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.


A 14" barrel M1 Carbine would be considered a SBR under CA penal code, except that the 12020b7 exemption comes into effect if you get the appropriate tax stamp. Which means, that the remaining definition is "pistol," thus making Pistol AW regs apply. Not that it would help any to have pistol regs apply vs. rifle regs. This is merely an academic exercise at this point...

ke6guj
01-27-2009, 7:23 PM
The real question is, do pistol AW regs apply because (1) it's not shoulder fired and (2) the barrel length is under 16"... Someone correct me if I'm off my rocker.I beleive that pistol AW regs would apply if the barrel is under 16" with or without a shoulder stock and it was semi-automatic.


The feds and CA use the exact same defintion of "rifle".
(20) As used in this section, a "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. I understand where you are trying to go with this. If the SKS was "redesigned" to not be shoulder-fired, is it still a rifle? I dunno if that question has ever been answered, since in most circumstances it doesn't matter. If I were to remove the stock and leave the barrel 16"/26" OAL, it is still a long gun, so it wouldn't matter if it is a rifle or just a long gun. If it went below 16"/26", it would be an SBR, since its definition only requires that it had been made from a rifle, not tht it is currently a rifle. So, it may or may not currently be a rifle, it would be an SBR so most people never cared if it currently was a rifle.

Only in rare cases does it matter if it is still a rifle even though it can't be shoulder fired, such as trying to do determine if it is exempt from the rifle AW regs. I don't know the absolute answer to that, but I would not rely on thinking that it is not a rifle, so that it couldn't be a rifle AW.

ke6guj
01-27-2009, 7:32 PM
Well, it looks like this discussion is really moot, after digging through the PC some...

(emphasis mine)

So (to me) that means anything with a barrel under 16" is considered a "pistol" and a "revolver" and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"



A 14" barrel M1 Carbine would be considered a SBR under CA penal code, except that the 12020b7 exemption comes into effect if you get the appropriate tax stamp. Which means, that the remaining definition is "pistol," thus making Pistol AW regs apply. Not that it would help any to have pistol regs apply vs. rifle regs. This is merely an academic exercise at this point...tht 14" barreled M1 carbine would be an SBR in CA, it is still an SBR even with the tax stamp, it is just that it would not be a violation to possess.

Plus, it would be a Rifle AW and a Pistol AW. Rifle AW since it had a shoulder stock and was under 30". Actually, I think you could go down to 12" with a fixed stock and still be over 30", so it wouldn't be a rifle AW. But with the barrel under 16", it would be a pistol AW since it had a detachable magazine outside the grip. So, if you kept it over 30" and ran a 10-round fixed mag, you should be able to configure it to be niether a RIfle or Pistol AW.

Don't worry about academic exercises. Brainstorming like this is how we figure out what the law actually says and means versus what we historically thought the law meant.

ke6guj
01-27-2009, 7:34 PM
I'm going out on a limb because, I really don't know what I'm talking about here. But, what about:

A C&R revolver with a shoulder stock.
A C&R revolving rifle with the barrel cut down.
A C&R SBR lever gun? There are some original examples around.
A C&R SBR pump action might be pretty cool too.

All should be possible. None of them would violate any other sections of the code other than 12020 that I can think of. And a C&R SBR with a tax stamp is exempt from 12020.

yellowfin
01-27-2009, 8:22 PM
I wonder if there were any 10.5" AR15's in the beginning of their production like '57 or '58 which would be C&R by now.

YoungGun2
01-27-2009, 10:11 PM
uclaplinker
Your avatar and screen name are tripping me out.

I think you're lost.

Let me help you. Click this:
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CCWFacts
01-27-2009, 10:20 PM
CALIFORNIA Penal Code 12276.1
(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

California's definition of rifle, unlike the Fed. definition, says it's "fired from the shoulder". So something could be a Federal SBR but not a California rifle at all.

Edit: never mind, I'm going to stop thinking about this, it's a puzzle not worth solving for me. The only NFA thing it sounds like I can get here that I might actually care about would be a non-pen-gun AOW, and anyway, it's a $5 stamp instead of $200.

Quiet
01-27-2009, 11:51 PM
Edit: never mind, I'm going to stop thinking about this, it's a puzzle not worth solving for me. The only NFA thing it sounds like I can get here that I might actually care about would be a non-pen-gun AOW, and anyway, it's a $5 stamp instead of $200.

$5 to transfer.
$200 to make.

1337vending
01-28-2009, 9:11 AM
Plus, it would be a Rifle AW and a Pistol AW.

Cool, like some sort of ultra-assault weapon! :43: Maybe we could show it to some of the antis and they'd have a conniption...:cool: I find it interesting that there's a way to legally be a pistol and a rifle at the same time...


Rifle AW since it had a shoulder stock and was under 30". Actually, I think you could go down to 12" with a fixed stock and still be over 30", so it wouldn't be a rifle AW. But with the barrel under 16", it would be a pistol AW since it had a detachable magazine outside the grip. So, if you kept it over 30" and ran a 10-round fixed mag, you should be able to configure it to be niether a RIfle or Pistol AW.

So while we're off on this tangent...how is the grip defined? Could we have some goofy reverse MonsterMan grip that includes the pistol grip and wraps around the front of the magazine? Does the PC define "magazine inside the grip" as meaning your hand going around the grip enclosing the magazine body? Or does it mean that the piece defined as the grip must enclose the magazine....


Don't worry about academic exercises. Brainstorming like this is how we figure out what the law actually says and means versus what we historically thought the law meant.

Heh, this is kinda fun...:TFH: I just want my SBR M1 carbine paratrooper with 30-rd detachable mag!!

DDT
01-28-2009, 1:24 PM
I wonder if there were any 10.5" AR15's in the beginning of their production like '57 or '58 which would be C&R by now.

I don't think there's a exemption for C&R in the AWB. I also doubt you'll find an AR that old that is "off list."