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gunn
01-26-2009, 2:44 PM
was hoping some of you gentlement (and ladies) would be willing to clarify something for me:

1) I understand that you bent your own flat, called it serial#0001whatever, and then built up a single shot AR/AK pistol using a sled and maglock.

Q: Did you then voluntarily register the gun as an single shot AK pistol?

Once this is done, I assume you converted it to semi auto (replaced mag with a 10rounder) by the pics.

Q: Did you then submit anything to the CalDOJ informing them that the singleshot/semi status has been altered?

If not, how do you plan on reconciling the situation where a cop pulls you over, runs the DROS, sees the pistol as a single shot pistol with serial # 001 but sees that the gun you have is a semi-auto (albeit fixed mag) with serial #001.

Is there some letter that you guys keep that says that there is no problem with changing from single shot -> semi auto or caliber to caliber for a pistol?

---
I had an interesting conversation with my FFL yesterday. They handle OLLs and are generally not prone to slinging FUD.

Her opinion (a single individual's opinion only) was that the procedure I mentioned above was OK for the single-shot but that there was NO provision to convert a gun from single shot to semi.

The example she gave was this: if you purchased a Desert Eagle in 45 (or whatever is legal to bring in now), swapped out the barrel for 50AE, and then subsequently had it stolen -- what would you report to the police? A Desert Eagle 45 or DE in 50AE? The reasoning would be that this would be similar to converting a pistol from single shot to semi.

When i tried to give the counter example of swapping calibers with an AR rifle, her comment was that this was outside the realm of the govt because you don't register long arms in CA -- just pistols. The basic underlying concern is that your registration, if you do it, doesn't match post conversion and that's a problem.

Thanks in advance for educating me here. I'm really quite interested in an AR pistol (seems a more unique way to build out an AK kit without throwing out lots of parts) but have some reservations about the procedure you guys have gone through.
-g

bwiese
01-26-2009, 3:28 PM
was hoping some of you gentlemen (and ladies) would be willing to clarify something for me:

1) I understand that you bent your own flat, called it serial #0001
whatever, and then built up a single shot AR/AK pistol using a sled
and maglock.

Correct. This avoids any issues of creation of 'unsafe handgun' (we likely will not need to do this in future but continue to do this for now).

Also, Calgunner 'Oaklander' opened a thread on this.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=115364

Another person just posted today about his AR pistol and DOJ resignation to our ability to be creative.

(When I say 'Yes' or 'Correct' below, it means this is what people have done... I have not done it myself since I have no need for such a gun, though I have provided some of the technical foundation for such pistol builders.



Q: Did you then voluntarily register the gun as an single shot AK pistol?


Yes. Remember the 12133PC exemption for single shots also requires 'dimensional compliance': min 6" bbl length and min 10.5" overall length (measured parallel to the bore).

Once this is done, I assume you converted it to semi auto (replaced mag with a 10rounder)....


Yes. Most folks don't want single shot AKs, and Thompson/Center indeeddoes make 7.62x39 barrels for their single-shot pistols :)

It's very important that during even the the short time the changeover is being made that the gun does NOT transition thru AW status, even for a microsecond. If that means taking the pistol grip off, and or further disassembling the pistol, etc. then do that. Use of a BulletButton maglock for locking the single-shot sled in allows this to be accomplished gracefully.


Q: Did you then submit anything to the CalDOJ informing them
that the single-shot/semi status has been altered?


There is no requirement that an owner of a legitimately acquired pistol notify DOJ, etc. for any of numerous changes such as a caliber change, barrel length change, rimfire to/from centerfire change, a conversion of single-action to/from double-action, etc.

The only thing you can't do is create an illegal handgun (an AW, a pistol that shoots shotgun shells, a pistol with unrifled bbl, an "unconventional pistol", etc.)



If not, how do you plan on reconciling the situation where a cop pulls you over, runs the DROS, sees
the pistol as a single shot pistol with serial # 001 but sees that the gun you have is a semi-auto
(albeit fixed mag) with serial #-001.


I do not believe this detailed info turns up on AFS (Automated Firearms System) - just an association of owner with basic make , model and serial#... i.e., that Joe Blow owns "Serial #0001" of a 'Made in USA' (make) pistol.

In any case it's irrelevant. The cops are not enquiring about the path to the gun's status, they're enquiring concerning "Is the gun legal right now?" and "Do you own this gun?"

The existence of the AFS record in your name for this gun should help alleviate such situations.

Now, I don't know how many voluntary reg's ("Volreg") have been processed for such pistols - and their processing delay time for various reg's (vol reg, Operation of Law registrations, etc.) has been 1 month - 8 wks...

A DOJ staffer (Brent George) started to give Oaklander the runaround, confusing issues with BATF/Fed SBR stuff - but he then shut up quickly and quietly when they realized Oaklander was a lawyer. (i.e., they thought they could bluff their way with FUD until they ran into a FUD killer).

is there some letter that you guys keep that says that there is no problem with changing
from single shot -> semi auto or caliber to caliber for a pistol?


Bottom line: "that which is not prohibited by law is permitted". One doesn't look for permission, one looks for prohibitions to avoid.

There are no laws prohibiting common flavors of pistol reconfigurations.

Again, you are allowed to change a gun in one operational status to another - just as long as the entity created is not illegal (AW, pistol firing shotgun shells, etc.)

You are allowed to put a longslide or compact slide on your USGI 1911, change your 357Sig pistol to 40S&W or vice versa, change your single-action revolver to a double-action or vice versa, or put a feed device on your single-shot pistol, etc.


had an interesting conversation with my FFL yesterday. They handle OLLs
and are generally not prone to slinging FUD.

Her opinion (a single individual's opinion only) was that the procedure I mentioned above
was OK for the single-shot but that there was NO provision to convert a gun from single
shot to semi.

Just because they're onto OLLs in general doesn't mean their competence goes further. Her opinion is WRONG.

Again, there's no provision AGAINST it. She's trying to comply with nonexistent non-law.


The example she gave was this: if you purchased a Desert Eagle in 45 (or whatever
is legal to bring in now), swapped out the barrel for 50AE, and then subsequently had it stolen --
what would you report to the police? A Desert Eagle 45 or DE in 50AE? The reasoning would be
that this would be similar to converting a pistol from single shot to semi.

A further example of her being wrong - she's saying it's illegal to change calibers on handguns, which is simply not the case. Otherwise we'd all be in jail for dropping a 357Sig bbl on our 40S&W pistols or putting a Commander slide on a full-size 1911.

If the gun were stolen you'd report the gun stolen as configured and then perhaps mention it was changed since it was DROSed.

The only thing that happens is the gun is most likely not considered Rostered (depending on whose parts make up the modification and whether that resultant parts combination still could be considered a Rostered entity) - and thus it must be PPT'd/consigned for future sale in CA: it can't go back into CA FFL dealer inventory for conventional sale.


When i tried to give the counter example of swapping calibers with an AR rifle, her comment was that this was outside the realm of the govt because you don't register long arms in CA -- just pistols. The basic underlying concern is that your registration, if you do it, doesn't match post conversion and that's a problem.

Again irrelevant. What a gun is registered as is just its status at time of sale or registration. That does not restrict what it can be changed to by the owner (other than illegal configurations like AWs, SBS etc.




Thanks in advance for educating me here. I'm really quite interested in an AR pistol (seems a more
unique way to build out an AK kit without throwing out lots of parts) but have some reservations
about the procedure you guys have gone through.

A variety of bright people have thought this through. They'd be in trouble already if that could happen.
Nobody's been arrested, and the DOJ is well aware of this (Hi Alison!) esp since they have reg info data.

Harrison_Bergeron
01-26-2009, 5:45 PM
Can some one point me in the direction of the information necessary for understanding why the single shot hoops are unnecessary for MAC clones?

bwiese
01-26-2009, 5:54 PM
Can some one point me in the direction of the information necessary for understanding why the single shot hoops are unnecessary for MAC clones?

[This assumes no threaded barrel is attached since that's an AW feature.]

You must be mixing up something.

Um, yes the single shot conversion is indeed necessary - for importation to your FFL from an out of state vendor. The SS conversion makes the gun Roster-exempt per 12133PC.

Remember that the gun must be single shot, have a min bbl length of 6" and a min overall length parallel to bore of 10.5". I am not sure how one would achieve this with a Mac design but it's likely feasible (dunno about costs).

Only exception to Rostering is for PPT/inheritance/intranfamily/consignment xfer, in which the off-list (i.e, not a 'named' AW), non-Rostered MAC-style frame or complete gun can be transferred directly to another Californian.

There have been a fair amount of "unthreaded unlisted non-Rostered MAC clones" available and transferred at various gunshops throughout CA.

Topologically, they're just another 9mm pistol with a really boxy design.

I'm still unclear why anyone wants one :)

savageevo
01-26-2009, 8:46 PM
Hey Bill, I just want to say thanks for all the clarifications on this topic.:thumbsup:

mvpatriot
01-26-2009, 8:54 PM
great post BWiese

Harrison_Bergeron
01-26-2009, 11:32 PM
The OP was about AK pistols built at home from a flat for personal use needing to be originally built as single shots, but in the MAC clone build threads (home built) there is no discussion of single shot status or accusations of wrong doing for non-single-shot status. If the single shot is necessary for an AK pistol built from a flat is it necessary for a welded up MAC receiver for personal use?

I just thought of where my confusion may be coming from. Is this why MACs need the "Not for Transfer" marking and can never be sold? As in an AK that is not built as a single shot would be fine if never transferred?

[This assumes no threaded barrel is attached since that's an AW feature.]

You must be mixing up something.

Um, yes the single shot conversion is indeed necessary - for importation to your FFL from an out of state vendor. The SS conversion makes the gun Roster-exempt per 12133PC.

Remember that the gun must be single shot, have a min bbl length of 6" and a min overall length parallel to bore of 10.5". I am not sure how one would achieve this with a Mac design but it's likely feasible (dunno about costs).

Only exception to Rostering is for PPT/inheritance/intranfamily/consignment xfer, in which the off-list (i.e, not a 'named' AW), non-Rostered MAC-style frame or complete gun can be transferred directly to another Californian.

There have been a fair amount of "unthreaded unlisted non-Rostered MAC clones" available and transferred at various gunshops throughout CA.

Topologically, they're just another 9mm pistol with a really boxy design.

I'm still unclear why anyone wants one :)

bwiese
01-26-2009, 11:46 PM
The OP was about AK pistols built at home from a flat for personal use needing to be originally built as single shots, but in the MAC clone build threads (home built) there is no discussion of single shot status or accusations of wrong doing for non-single-shot status. I

I have not seen the homebuilt MAC threads. Yes, they should go thru single shot status.

(Not going thru SS status for homebuilt pistol can be a bit defendable because we have an Alison letter stating it's legal to build a 1911.)

Also with onset of NERF stuf this may not need to be done, but until G is for Go on that and we execute, we should continue going thru S/S status.

Also, proof that a given homebuilt did or did not go thru a single shot stage is likely unprovable unless owner questioned and the subject under questioning babbled like an idiot instead of referring questions to his lawyer.


If the single shot is necessary for an AK pistol built from a flat is it necessary for a welded up MAC receiver for personal use?

Really should be done for both. Why would you think there is a difference?

[quote]
I just thought of where my confusion may be coming from. Is this why MACs need the "Not for Transfer" marking and can never be sold?[/qote]

That probably means you saw a MAC in a gunshop that was in inventory when SB15 hit. It can't be sold to ordinary people in CA since it's not Rostered (assuming non-AW status & no threaded bbl)

Or, it could be the homebuilder clearly wants to indicate the gun is for personal use and is not for sale because he doesn't have a license and doesn't want to appear to be 'in the business'.

There's no legal difference in homebrewing a MAC pistol vs AK pistol other than how certain features configurations are used to avoid AW status.

yellowfin
01-26-2009, 11:51 PM
Good luck getting a Krinkov kit at any acceptable price. I kick myself everytime I read of people grabbing them up for $200 or less back a few years ago...instead of the $800-1000 it costs now, apparently.

Harrison_Bergeron
01-26-2009, 11:55 PM
This is the thread I am referencing as far as home built MACs, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=69973


Here's the newest one, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=147599&highlight=weld

gunn
01-27-2009, 12:59 PM
Q: To what extent, BWeise, do you think one needs to prove that you have built a single-shot AK?

* Would a video burned to VHS/DVD with a time-date stamp be sufficient?
* Or, would you feel more comfortable if the builder took a copy of that video, packaged and mailed it REGISTERED mail to yourself (so it gets the envelope lips stamped by the USPS), and then the package (with the USPS datestamp) was never opened? I remember reading about doing something similar to this with your lab notebooks to "prove" that you had your patentable idea at a given date...

---
This whole discussion has also made me question the legality of using caliber conversion slides on 1911s, glocks, etc. I guess it all comes down to what comes up with the police check from the 4473 form and the Cal-DOJ voluntary registration form. If what you are saying is correct and it's just Owner name, address, make, model, and product serial number, then we have nothing to be concerned about if you can prove that your gun was Single-shot upon initial registration.

According to Wikipedia (for what it's worth), all that's on the 4473 is "name, address, date of birth, government-issued photo ID, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check transaction number, make/model/serial number of the firearm, and a short federal affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law."

NOTE: On the voluntary registration form, you must claim if it's a semi-automatic/revolver/single shot and the caliber the gun shoots.
Q: Can any police officers chime in with what is stated when they do a firearms check? Is it just whats on the 4473 or more?
http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf

-g

bwiese
01-27-2009, 1:19 PM
Q: To what extent, BWeise, do you think one needs to prove that you have built a single-shot AK?

* Would a video burned to VHS/DVD with a time-date stamp be sufficient?
* Or, would you feel more comfortable if the builder took a copy of that video, packaged and mailed it REGISTERED mail to yourself (so it gets the envelope lips stamped by the USPS), and then the package (with the USPS datestamp) was never opened? I remember reading about doing something similar to this with your lab notebooks to "prove" that you had your patentable idea at a given date...

Hold it right there....

You do not have to PROVE you did the S/S conversion. THEY have to prove OTHERWISE.

Having an S/S sled in your possession would be helpful

And if anyone starts asking about the way you made your pistol you should clam up and refer questions to a lawyer anyway.



This whole discussion has also made me question the legality of using caliber conversion slides on 1911s, glocks, etc.


It shouldn't. You're living in a legion of FUD.

I'd be perfectly happy to wave a caliber-converted handgun in front of anyone including cops/DOJ (as long as I wouldn't get popped for brandishing/threats ;) ).

Many tens of thousands of Californians have swapped the following...
- Sig 226s in 357 Sig converted to 40S&W, or vice versa. Some sold new in CA may have had both barrels in pkg.
- Sig 226s in either 357Sig or 40S&W converted into 9mm with a BarSto aftermarket bbl;
- Same for various Glocks in 356Sig vs 40S&W;
- Glock 21s in 45ACP getting Glock 20 10mm uppers and also poss having a KKM 40S&W conversion bbl;
- Tons of 22LR conversion assemblies are sold to 1911 folks as well as Glock, Browning HP, etc.
- Tons of folks have made 1911s shoot something other than 45ACP.
- Tons of folks put Compact (3.5") or Commander (4.25") on their 1911s (normal 5" slide on std 1911)
- Many folks have had their longer revolver barrels chopped to a shorter size.

BTW, some of the above mods have been done by CA FFL gunsmiths. These guys wouldn't be doing this if illegal.



I guess it all comes down to what comes up with the police check from the 4473 form and the Cal-DOJ voluntary registration form.


No it doesn't.

If what you are saying is correct and it's just Owner name, address, make, model, and product serial number, then we have nothing to be concerned about if you can prove that your gun was Single-shot upon initial registration.

Again that's really irrelevant. How many times do I have to say it...

... IT'S PERFECTLY FRIGGIN' LEGAL TO CHANGE SOME ITEM ON YOUR HANDGUN, AS LONG AS THAT DOESN'T PRODUCE AN ILLEGAL CONFIGURATION (assault weapon, SBR, unconventional pistol, unrifled pistol/shogun-shell firing, etc)

OK?

The only thing that has happened is the modified gun has lost its Rostering status (if it had it in first place). Rostering only applies at the time of purchase from a dealer.


According to Wikipedia (for what it's worth), all that's on the 4473 is "name, address, date of birth, government-issued photo ID, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check transaction number, make/model/serial number of the firearm, and a short federal affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law."
What does that have to do with state matters?
You fill out DROS info separate from 4473 info in CA.

NOTE: On the voluntary registration form, you must claim if it's a semi-automatic/revolver/single shot and the caliber the gun shoots.


Fine fine fine. That's just info. Again, irrelevant as to what the current status is as long as you filled out the form truthfully and correctly with what the gun's status was at the time of completion.

Pray tell, let's say the cop had detailed info on the gun via AFS and saw it differed. WTF can he do? What possible charge is there?


I have registered AW's that were registered under one caliber. I have changed the caliber on one of 'em. That was supplementary info. If the AW reg were pulled up in a traffic stop, it'd show the old caliber. So friggin' what?

CHS
01-27-2009, 1:29 PM
I'm still unclear why anyone wants one :)

For me, history and nostalgia. Yes, it's a crappy pistol with the worlds worst trigger, but it's got tons and tons of history behind it. Plus, all the movies and tv shows that I grew up with make me nostalgic for one.

gunn
01-28-2009, 10:54 AM
Bweise:
Thanks for the follow-up.
-g