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pullnshoot25
01-25-2009, 10:46 PM
Hey guys, just letting everyone know in this section of the forum (gir007 informed everyone in the "General Gun Discussions" already) that there is another San Diego Open Carry Outing planned for Feb 28, 2009.

All details are posted on my blog, so check it out! Blog address is in the signature line.

BLOG INVITE HAS BEEN UPDATED AS OF LATE, PLEASE CHECK IT OUT NOW! CLICK HERE!
(http://caopencarry.blogspot.com/2009/01/san-diego-open-carry-meet.html)

Also, Theseus is hoping to get a carpool together for the Alhambra/LA area. Link here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2010782#post2010782)for those interested

pullnshoot25
01-25-2009, 11:49 PM
Oh yeah, if you want to/plan on attending, feel free to drop a post here or on the blog so we can get a rough idea of how many will be there! WOO HOO!

-N8

gunsmith
01-26-2009, 1:04 AM
if others would break the ice I would join in, but right now I cant afford to have my only pistol confiscated.

Macadelic4
01-26-2009, 1:17 AM
When will you guys be at El Indio? I can't make the morning (and I don't have a handgun) but I can stop by later for moral support.

Seesm
01-26-2009, 2:56 AM
Good stuff... in Sacramento I would do or locally near my home.... We do truly need more of this...

ENTHUSIAST
01-26-2009, 3:45 AM
Does it have to be so early 9AM Sat morn?

Damn, PB though tempting... put me down as a definite... MAYBE! :)

Are we gonna hang out on the Boardwalk and then get lunch @ a Restaurant along Mission Blvd?

pullnshoot25
01-26-2009, 6:47 AM
Does it have to be so early 9AM Sat morn?

Damn, PB though tempting... put me down as a definite... MAYBE! :)

Are we gonna hang out on the Boardwalk and then get lunch @ a Restaurant along Mission Blvd?

EXACTLY!

pullnshoot25
01-26-2009, 6:48 AM
When will you guys be at El Indio? I can't make the morning (and I don't have a handgun) but I can stop by later for moral support.

Hey Mac, I have a pistol for you to wear if you want...

CCWFacts
01-26-2009, 8:01 AM
One idea I saw that some OCer were doing in New Hampshire: they did an Open Carry Trash Pickup. They cleaned up some park as their OC activity. I thought that was a great idea.

"What are you doing here with a GUN?"
"We're picking up litter. Is that a problem?"

7x57
01-26-2009, 8:21 AM
One idea I saw that some OCer were doing in New Hampshire: they did an Open Carry Trash Pickup. They cleaned up some park as their OC activity. I thought that was a great idea.


Actually, it is a tremendously good idea, as it breaks the casting the left has done for their narrative of history. Done often enough and it disrupts the worldview they are selling to the fence-sitters. There must be many other similar ones.

Erasing graffiti might be particularly effective? Though some places you might *need* to be armed while you do it.

7x57

CCWFacts
01-26-2009, 8:37 AM
Actually, it is a tremendously good idea, as it breaks the casting the left has done for their narrative of history.

Yeah, it shows that we're not anti-social dangerous people, but rather people who are working to improve our communities and taking initiative. "Service", right? Maybe next MLK day should be "open carry litter pickup day" for us?

(My MLK day just now was "use my AR-15 to get rid of excess ammo day" but it would be better to do something more service-oriented than that.)

Erasing graffiti might be particularly effective? Though some places you might *need* to be armed while you do it.

Yes, erasing graffiti could actually be dangerous, and it requires permission from whoever owns the property. Litter removal is uniquely good in that there's no restriction on doing it.

For us here in CA, we may have trouble doing it in a park because of various ordnances. But I'm sure we could find a great spot to pick up litter while exercising our rights.

Omega13device
01-26-2009, 8:49 AM
One idea I saw that some OCer were doing in New Hampshire: they did an Open Carry Trash Pickup. They cleaned up some park as their OC activity. I thought that was a great idea.

"What are you doing here with a GUN?"
"We're picking up litter. Is that a problem?"
Just be sure to check your city ordinances before doing this in a park as some cities don't allow firearms in their parks.

pullnshoot25
01-26-2009, 8:54 AM
Just be sure to check your city ordinances before doing this in a park as some cities don't allow firearms in their parks.

State has preemption for firearm laws. The boardwalk is not considered part of the park and if it were, I am certain the detective would have informed us of that minor technicality and suggested another location.

7x57
01-26-2009, 9:10 AM
Yes, erasing graffiti could actually be dangerous, and it requires permission from whoever owns the property.


It is interesting what message it would send if you asked for and received permission to do it, however. Asking permission opens a conversation in an unusual and positive context. If permission is not granted, it was still worth the effort because gun owners asked politely for permission to do a public service for free.

Someone will like the free labor enough to grant permission, and that is the second interesting point. Why might it be dangerous to erase graffiti? Because criminals frighten decent citizens and mark territory as a constant reminder that they should remain afraid, that civil authority can't protect them nor can they protect themselves. It is because criminals intimidate law-abiding citizens.

What does the right to bear arms mean? It means the ability to take control of your own life and your own streets. It means not being intimidated by crime or criminals. And isn't that what erasing graffitti while carrying demonstrates publicly? It *shows* something that the public needs to know, and that is not shown while just walking around (sure, you're safer, but the public doesn't think you need to be armed in the first place). And it might make the residents start to think "why can't I do that too? Why can't I take back my own neighborhood?"

And finally, it ought to make any cop happy who subscribes to the broken windows theory or community policing. That isn't a bad thing either, not at all. At one time, every cop knew that if someone hassled him every armed citizen within shouting distance would back him up. They were an asset. No longer, of course, but this is one way to demonstrate the point again. And suppose they decide you need watching? Great! That means the chief is letting some of his officers watch the propaganda on department time, and it means the clean-up crew is that much safer anyway.

I have a hard time seeing the downside, except for perhaps some danger. But I have a hard time believing anyone will harass a whole group of visibly armed people, even if they have to carry their loaded magazines in belt pouches.

This seems a lot more productive than simply OC while going about business, frankly. It is a disruptive strategy, and that's good.

7x57

Liberty1
01-26-2009, 12:32 PM
One idea I saw that some OCer were doing in New Hampshire: they did an Open Carry Trash Pickup. They cleaned up some park as their OC activity. I thought that was a great idea.

"What are you doing here with a GUN?"
"We're picking up litter. Is that a problem?"


http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=open+carry+trash+pick+up&aq=f



and



ZY3HZg5hb6Y&eurl

BTF/PTM
01-26-2009, 12:54 PM
Please forgive a n00b's response, I've done a bit of reading in regard to this event. I'd be a first-time participant, but a very willing and proactive one assuming I've got this understood correctly.

Under the California DOJ written law, it is NOT illegal to carry any California-approved handgun in any public place other than a school zone, State/Federal building or otherwise marked area provided that handgun is NOT loaded (the term "loaded fitting the full definition of law, of course) and all parts of the handgun and/or holstering device are fully exposed to plain view.

Here's a couple questions, and hoepfully I'm not the only one who's wondering these but oh well I'm gonna ask 'em anyway.

1) The law does not state that it is illegal to carry loaded magazines detached from the gun, for example in a belt pocket or a pants pocket or whatever. If someone were to choose to open carry that way, what kind of trouble could ensue if the cops wanted to intervene?

2) Is it the intent of our participants to carry just the gun without any magazines on their person so as to make it that much more obvious that the gun is not loaded?

3) Is there any real punishment that could result in taking part in this event provided it is done following the letter of the law and otherwise peacably? I don't need to be getting arrested for a "misunderstanding" having to do with guns - not so good for my employment future, dontcha know.

If it does turn out that this is safe for its participants, I think it's a great idea. Demonstrate to the public that it is NOT the gun that's dangerous, and that most citizens who own them are not just law-abiding but also proactive in their communities. If such is the case, I'm in. See you there :cool:

Liberty1
01-26-2009, 1:10 PM
Please forgive a n00b's response, I've done a bit of reading in regard to this event. I'd be a first-time participant, but a very willing and proactive one assuming I've got this understood correctly.

I appreciate your desire to educate yourself! That is the first step to avoiding problems (still problems CAN find you).

Study here at californiaopencarry.org (http://californiaopencarry.org) and DO read the actual penal code sections to better your understanding of the laws (and it WILL also generate questions).

Buy the book "How to own a gun and stay out of jail". It is a great resource for "case law" - which is the courts saying what the law "means".

Consider showing up unarmed and observing if you are not yet fully educated or comfortable with the laws or the risks. But it is one month away so you have time. San Diego recently became much more friendly (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/carry/San-Diego-PD-TB-08-05-California-Open-Carry-Dec-2008.pdf) (at least in the city proper).

Still OC and UOC in CA is far from just walking off your property and going about you day. Become informed! Make an informed decision!

DDT
01-26-2009, 1:17 PM
1) The law does not state that it is illegal to carry loaded magazines detached from the gun, for example in a belt pocket or a pants pocket or whatever. If someone were to choose to open carry that way, what kind of trouble could ensue if the cops wanted to intervene?

2) Is it the intent of our participants to carry just the gun without any magazines on their person so as to make it that much more obvious that the gun is not loaded?


It is quite likely that a concealed magazine is completely legal. However; there has been considerable discussion of this exact issue and it is the opinion of most OC advocates that you are legally safest with any loaded magazines in belt pouches carried openly. Some have also suggested that carrying your firearm with an unloaded magazine in place re-enforces the status of the loaded magazines as replacement parts rather than integral parts of the gun. Others have argued that since a loaded magazine in the firearm still requires racking the slide that the gun is NOT in a position to be fired and even an empty chamber with loaded magazine is legal. (This has not been tested and isn't recommended.)

I will assume that in an organized event like this that the organizers will prefer that everyone carries their magazines in the most clearly legal manner and I would also suspect they will check each participant to ensure they aren't opening themselves up to a very bad situation of a demonstration intended to be legal turning into something the antis can actually use against us. I would also assume that the organizers will print a map with "green zones" around the demonstration area so people don't get nabbed by a school zone violation or other "sensitive area."


3) Is there any real punishment that could result in taking part in this event provided it is done following the letter of the law and otherwise peacably? I don't need to be getting arrested for a "misunderstanding" having to do with guns - not so good for my employment future, dontcha know.


As long as your are obeying the laws (and the guys here are much more expert on the laws than Local LE will be) there is no "real punishment" but it is ALWAYS possible that an undereducated LEO will run you in and you could have some difficulty getting out. If you are careful, squeaky clean and in the right there is a high probability that you will not face any charges.

BTF/PTM
01-26-2009, 1:30 PM
I hadn't even considered the idea of a concealed magazine until I realized that the context of my question opened the option - thanks for bringing it up, definitely something worth clarifying! I'll start reading the links to the other data as soon as I'm home from work, I've already been on the interweb too much for one day :o

Liberty1
01-26-2009, 1:30 PM
1) The law does not state that it is illegal to carry loaded magazines detached from the gun, for example in a belt pocket or a pants pocket or whatever. If someone were to choose to open carry that way, what kind of trouble could ensue if the cops wanted to intervene?

2) Is it the intent of our participants to carry just the gun without any magazines on their person so as to make it that much more obvious that the gun is not loaded?

3) Is there any real punishment that could result in taking part in this event provided it is done following the letter of the law and otherwise peacably? I don't need to be getting arrested for a "misunderstanding" having to do with guns - not so good for my employment future, dontcha know.



1 & 2) Loaded mags NOT attached to the firearm in a position from which the ammunition can be fired is NO CRIME generally: PC 12031 and People vs Clark (unless engaged in a felony crime PC 12023 or on state capitol grounds in Sac.)

We recommend all mags (loaded or not) be kept exposed in belt mag pouches (People vs Hale)

Some do not place a empty mag in the well some do - It's really personal choice and tactics.

3) False arrests happen. The SD UOC event in Feb. IMO will probable be the legally "safest" event yet held. Past performance is no guarantee of future success (you may remember this statement from your stock market broker;)).

But what IS needed in CA are Citizens of Patriotism, Courage, and Enterprise willing to exercise their Rights and to lawfully take back what has been wrongfully denied us: Our Basic Human Right of Self Defense and Possession of the Best Tools for that Lawful Defense!

Welcome to the fold here on Calguns!

ripcurlksm
01-26-2009, 1:41 PM
Still OC and UOC in CA is far from just walking off your property and going about you day. Become informed! Make an informed decision!

Right but with the exception of driving, banks, schools and post offices, etc -- unloaded open carry in ORANGE COUNTY is just as legal as SD?

EDIT: what are you implying that is different about OC?

keep up the good work

Liberty1
01-26-2009, 1:47 PM
Yeah, it shows that we're not anti-social dangerous people, but rather people who are working to improve our communities and taking initiative.

Aside from the UOC and community outreach / beautification issues I'd love for some SD locals (who are VERY well educated on the facts and prefer CCW to OC) to use the opportunity presented by UOC defensive carry and the SD PD UOC memo to approach the SD Police Chief about CCW issuance (unless he's declared "G").

I still support OC as a superior deterrent mode of carry and comfort (pros and cons to both CC and OC (and certainly there are cons for UOC) but I feel it is a matter of individual choice ultimately and a choice dictated by what is prohibited by bad laws.

Liberty1
01-26-2009, 1:48 PM
Right but with the exception of driving, banks, schools and post offices, etc -- unloaded open carry in ORANGE COUNTY is just as legal as SD?

EDIT: what are you implying that is different about OC?

keep up the good work

Fixed it. :)

OC means open carry in my above post not Orange....

Yes UOC in OC (Orange County) is the same in SD in regards to state law matters. Be aware of local ordinances (which are preempted but may take a legal fight to prove if the city involved digs in and tries to prosecute any such misdemeanor).

ripcurlksm
01-26-2009, 2:04 PM
heh easy mixup, thanks for reclarifying

Sorry for off topic question but:

Situation: You are unloaded open carrying, your life is in immediate danger-- are the legal repercussions of self defense equal to CCW vs UOC if you had to defend yourself?

What I am trying to get at here is if there are any significant LEGAL differences sitting in court for a life/death situation and having a CCW vs UOC.

Liberty1
01-26-2009, 2:16 PM
heh easy mixup, thanks for reclarifying

Sorry for off topic question but:

Situation: You are unloaded open carrying, your life is in immediate danger-- are the legal repercussions of self defense equal to CCW vs UOC if you had to defend yourself?

What I am trying to get at here is if there are any significant LEGAL differences sitting in court for a life/death situation and having a CCW vs UOC.

:threadjacked:

Well I could see a prosecuting attorney saying "you went out looking for a gun fight, etc..." But if it wasn't justified deadly force you'd be in the same boat even on your own property (stronger protections exist for being IN your residence).

I always recommend carrying a "less lethal" option too (for most people that is limited to pepper spray even a small one on a key chain is better then nothing) so you can say that you were prepared for a less then lethal threat but the circumstances required you to use the force needed (let your attorney explain that rather then running your mouth to the police after a self defense shooting).

Retreating or running away should never be discounted provided it doesn't increase the dangers. Everyone who keeps any arm (even at home) should study self defense case law and survival theories and seek as much training as their budget or library card will support! and train, train train and then train some more!

sfpcservice
01-26-2009, 2:58 PM
I wish there were people doing this in sf

I work in SF and I think because it is so compact, you'd have a real hard time staying 1000' away from all the public and private schools. You might be able to pull it off standing at the end of a pier in hunters point, but then you could lock and load too because you would be in grave danger! :D

alleyehave
01-26-2009, 4:05 PM
Will be present...

ENTHUSIAST
01-26-2009, 8:38 PM
3) Dressing the part (UPDATED 1-26)... Therefore, it is requested that those attending this outing be nicely attired. (CHANGE HERE)--> Since slacks to a beach function is almost silly, I say that we dress in what is comfortable but also looks nice, as open carrying is already hard enough as it is, we shouldn't have to dress up the occasion as well.


Glad that you caught that one!!! :D

I will be the guy wearing Reef sandals and either NEW boardshorts or nice jeans... now does anyone know where I can get a Jay La Suer for Sheriff T-Shirt in XXL...? :toetap05:

Go ahead and change that maybe to a definite YES!!!

DDT
01-26-2009, 10:33 PM
I will be the guy wearing Reef sandals and either NEW boardshorts or nice jeans...

Gotta love any sandal company that includes a churchkey in the sole of their sandals.

pullnshoot25
01-26-2009, 10:34 PM
WOO HOO! Lets get this party started!

CmpsdNoMore
01-27-2009, 10:43 AM
I'll probably be coming, though I won't be carrying. I'll definitely print out some of the fliers in case they're needed.

I'm not very familiar with the area yet, but that location listed is near Mission Beach, right?

pullnshoot25
01-27-2009, 11:00 AM
I'll probably be coming, though I won't be carrying. I'll definitely print out some of the fliers in case they're needed.

I'm not very familiar with the area yet, but that location listed is near Mission Beach, right?

Yes, you are correct.

BTF/PTM
01-27-2009, 11:43 AM
I'll add another question to the thread in the hope that I'm not the only one wondering/worrying about it.

4) I've been reading up on the opencarry.org site, and it mentions that one obviously should not carry if not financially prepared to cover legal fees in the event of arrest while participating LAWFULLY in open carry. Does anyone here have a ballpark figure for the legal fees required should the SHTF? It sounds like this has been set up to be as safe and smart as possible, but no one should ever hope for the best without planning for the worst. I need to know if I should open a fresh credit line before I jump into this (yes, I'm willing to do that to help make a statement :cool: )

GuyW
01-27-2009, 11:46 AM
The boardwalk is not considered part of the park....

It is a dedicated public right of way (ie street).
.

elsensei
01-27-2009, 12:46 PM
I'll add another question to the thread in the hope that I'm not the only one wondering/worrying about it.

4) I've been reading up on the opencarry.org site, and it mentions that one obviously should not carry if not financially prepared to cover legal fees in the event of arrest while participating LAWFULLY in open carry. Does anyone here have a ballpark figure for the legal fees required should the SHTF? It sounds like this has been set up to be as safe and smart as possible, but no one should ever hope for the best without planning for the worst. I need to know if I should open a fresh credit line before I jump into this (yes, I'm willing to do that to help make a statement :cool: )

The smartest thing you could do would be to learn how to represent yourself in court. The expense is in the legal fees, and I can guarantee you that you'll know more about the applicable laws than most attorneys you come across.

The second smartest thing you could do is go on the offensive and if TSHTF go after the city, the police department and the individual officer.

BTF/PTM
01-27-2009, 12:50 PM
The smartest thing you could do would be to learn how to represent yourself in court. Educational source recommendations? Classes? Books? This would be a worthy skill for any application, and I'm a big fan of learning useful skills.

elsensei
01-27-2009, 1:18 PM
the nolo press has a pretty good book on representing yourself in court. Look on Amazon for other books along the same lines.

Search the web for examples of pleadings. Most legal pleadings are just boilerplate, meaning one guy wrote one thing a hundred years ago and everyone has been ripping him off ever since.

The local law library is a pretty good source too, staffed with law students bored out of their minds and often eager to help.

"Section 1983 litigation in a nutshell" is excellent for when you need to go on the offensive when your rights have been violated.

then read and understand the "federal rules of civil procedure" if you end up in federal court as a plaintiff.

you can attend open criminal court anytime you want, just show up and watch how it all works. That is one of the best ways to learn.

BTF/PTM
01-27-2009, 2:01 PM
^thanks!! Man, I'm learnin' all kindsa new stuff today. :)

tube_ee
01-27-2009, 2:43 PM
I'm thinking of carrying my 1858 Remington replica, unloaded and uncapped.

If I had to give up a gun to the cops, it's the one I'd miss the least, and the cheapest to replace should that become necessary.

Any issues with such a choice?

Thanks,

--Shannon

pullnshoot25
01-27-2009, 4:25 PM
I'm thinking of carrying my 1858 Remington replica, unloaded and uncapped.

If I had to give up a gun to the cops, it's the one I'd miss the least, and the cheapest to replace should that become necessary.

Any issues with such a choice?

Thanks,

--Shannon

None at all. If you wear it though, you have to dress up. That would be SICK!

Besides, no one is getting their guns taken that day, that I can pretty much assure.

hotfire
01-27-2009, 4:51 PM
Im a total newb to this, but being 20 years old and my dad owning a handgun, there is no way I would be able to attend this event with his gun right, i have no criminal record or anything bad to my name. If not I'll ask him if he would like to go and open carry for his first time.

pullnshoot25
01-27-2009, 5:44 PM
Im a total newb to this, but being 20 years old and my dad owning a handgun, there is no way I would be able to attend this event with his gun right, i have no criminal record or anything bad to my name. If not I'll ask him if he would like to go and open carry for his first time.

Just answered his question via YouTube. GOOD TIMES!

NiteQwill
01-27-2009, 7:52 PM
Good luck guys!

Theseus
01-27-2009, 8:00 PM
I believe I should be close to free of this by then. If I am, and I can afford it I will be there. Perhaps with friends.

pullnshoot25
01-27-2009, 8:45 PM
I believe I should be close to free of this by then. If I am, and I can afford it I will be there. Perhaps with friends.

Your lunch is on me, good sir :)

lorax3
01-28-2009, 1:56 AM
Sounds like a good time, I will plan to be there.

-lorax

AEC1
01-28-2009, 12:08 PM
I am down for a second go-round, the first at El Indio was great, the picture of me in front of the SDPD Cruiser is still my PC wallpaper...

LOW2000
01-28-2009, 2:08 PM
Double check on carrying that replica, there are laws IIRC with regards to carrying a "toy" gun.

GuyW
01-28-2009, 2:38 PM
Double check on carrying that replica, there are laws IIRC with regards to carrying a "toy" gun.

"Fireable" replicas are fine. It's non-functional "models" or "toys" that are legally dangerous...

BTW, BP pistols are (of course) recognized in CA Penal Code, being specified as not being loaded if the caps are not present (or vice-versa, didn't look it up)...
.

pullnshoot25
01-28-2009, 2:39 PM
1) Rifles ok or just handguns?
2) Empty holster OK?

I would say that rifles are just fine, but good attention to muzzle discipline is necessary (even more than usual)

Empty holsters are fine, though filled ones are what we are shooting for :)

tube_ee
01-28-2009, 3:08 PM
Empty holsters are fine, though filled ones are what we are shooting for

Shouldn't that be "not shooting for?"

I kid, of course...

--Shannon

PS: Barring unforeseen eventualities, like me getting a job (laid off in Dec), I and my Remington will be there... unfortunately ungarbed, as I'm not a CASser... yet.

Liberty1
01-28-2009, 7:19 PM
1) Rifles ok or just handguns?
2) Empty holster OK?

I'm not a pistol snob, but rifles create a different level of concern. Pullinshoot25 mentioned: muzzle control - (I know it will be unloaded) and I'll mention brandishing. Pistols are very secure and allow you to go about your normal business while maintaining the ability for self defense. And the states brandishing law makes it very clear that carry in a holster doesn't qualify as brandishing.

Where are you going to put down a rifle in a restaurant? Will it then possibly be out of your control? The restaurant may have a greater concern with a conspicuous rifle vs pistols which rarely attract much attention and more to ask our group to leave.

So lets please stick to unloaded pistols in holsters at this point in time. I can't compel anyone to do anything but please think of the big picture. We have a long way to go to restore the 2nd A. We are in the business of winning the hearts and minds of the public and selling our ideas to those who will be experiencing it for the first time. We need to ease them into carry IMO.

As for empty holsters? I don't understand that personally. If you don't want to carry an unloaded gun just don't carry and be a good witness for everyone else.

LOW2000
01-28-2009, 8:24 PM
I'll do what I can to attend, I don't have the money to afford representation right now, and I have a peculiar transportation situation that make OC difficult, but I'd like to be there in support.

pullnshoot25
01-28-2009, 10:45 PM
I'll do what I can to attend, I don't have the money to afford representation right now, and I have a peculiar transportation situation that make OC difficult, but I'd like to be there in support.

YAY for support! I wouldn't be too nervous about the representation aspect at an outing such as this but in any case, support is nice!

pullnshoot25
01-29-2009, 9:50 AM
Just a question for all of you guys in LE out there (Liberty1, etc)... Are we going to need a permit for this in case a bunch of guys show up or is that just for when you have to shut down entire streets?

PTMATTESON
01-30-2009, 2:54 PM
my wife has an, open top leather paddle holster, without a strap, for her 38. is this going to be o.k. at the oc?

pullnshoot25
01-30-2009, 4:44 PM
my wife has an, open top leather paddle holster, without a strap, for her 38. is this going to be o.k. at the oc?

PTMATTHESON, I utilize an open top leather pancake holster for my Tracker and it is just fine for OC. Some prefer to have retention but my holster hugs my gun like no other and it keeps it nice and tight so no worries. Besides, there is nothing on the books as to what type of holster one needs for OCing.

I look forward to seeing you there!

-N8

Liberty1
01-30-2009, 6:19 PM
Just a question for all of you guys in LE out there (Liberty1, etc)... Are we going to need a permit for this in case a bunch of guys show up or is that just for when you have to shut down entire streets?

Ask your detective contact. You shouldn't if it's just for fellowship and not a demonstration.

DirtSailor
01-30-2009, 8:44 PM
"Fireable" replicas are fine. It's non-functional "models" or "toys" that are legally dangerous...

BTW, BP pistols are (of course) recognized in CA Penal Code, being specified as not being loaded if the caps are not present (or vice-versa, didn't look it up)...
.

ok, wait a sec. It's ok to for me to carry my Pieta 1851 Navy (unloaded), but illegal for me to carry my non-firing SAA replica??????

That makes absolutely no sense. Oh yeah, it's Kalifornia.

PS, what is a "BP pistol"?

LOW2000
01-30-2009, 8:47 PM
ok, wait a sec. It's ok to for me to carry my Pieta 1851 Navy (unloaded), but illegal for me to carry my non-firing SAA replica??????

That makes absolutely no sense. Oh yeah, it's Kalifornia.

PS, what is a "BP pistol"?

Black Powder

pullnshoot25
01-31-2009, 2:22 AM
Ask your detective contact. You shouldn't if it's just for fellowship and not a demonstration.

gir007 contacted him I think, as he informed me that no permit was needed.

Mulay El Raisuli
01-31-2009, 5:37 AM
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of every American... (T)he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people."
-Tenche Coxe, 1788


Now that I am reminded of this quote, I wonder if perhaps I should wear my saber? Just for the sake of variety.

Hmmm?

The Raisuli

pullnshoot25
01-31-2009, 11:19 PM
Now that I am reminded of this quote, I wonder if perhaps I should wear my saber? Just for the sake of variety.

Hmmm?

The Raisuli

Bring it on!

Mulay El Raisuli
02-01-2009, 6:15 AM
Bring it on!


Seriously?

The Raisuli

pullnshoot25
02-01-2009, 3:53 PM
Seriously?

The Raisuli

Dude, this outing is for the modern sword but if you want to bring one of days past then by all means, bring it! Nothing like going retro with some class!

Geez, I might even throw a tomahawk in my belt to join you!

VW*Mike
02-01-2009, 4:06 PM
I posted this and a link to your blog on our local car club board with a majority of SD people on who are also gun owners. I think I have to work that Saturday. I will check.

Mulay El Raisuli
02-02-2009, 6:35 AM
Dude, this outing is for the modern sword but if you want to bring one of days past then by all means, bring it! Nothing like going retro with some class!

Geez, I might even throw a tomahawk in my belt to join you!


All righty then. Instead of the .38, I'll wear one of my sabers instead.

The Raisuli

elsensei
02-02-2009, 7:37 AM
All righty then. Instead of the .38, I'll wear one of my sabers instead.

The Raisuli

MER, I recommend the .38.

Now i'm trying to come up with a reason why that isn't rooted in concern over what some pantywaist passerby will think.

Here's one...i guarantee the cops will know even less about open-carry saber laws than they do about open carry firearms.

I guess i think that you ought to bring the gun instead of the sword because swords aren't being threatened like guns and gun owners are, and with this nutty administration things are going to get very interesting very quickly and i don't believe we'll have many more opportunities to make a political statement and bringing a gun to a pro-gun event would show a greater measure of solidarity.

Having said all that, I'm a libertarian so do whatever you want! :)

pullnshoot25
02-02-2009, 8:20 AM
MER, I recommend the .38.

Now i'm trying to come up with a reason why that isn't rooted in concern over what some pantywaist passerby will think.

Here's one...i guarantee the cops will know even less about open-carry saber laws than they do about open carry firearms.

I guess i think that you ought to bring the gun instead of the sword because swords aren't being threatened like guns and gun owners are, and with this nutty administration things are going to get very interesting very quickly and i don't believe we'll have many more opportunities to make a political statement and bringing a gun to a pro-gun event would show a greater measure of solidarity.

Having said all that, I'm a libertarian so do whatever you want! :)

Truth on both sides of the coin, hehe.

pullnshoot25
02-02-2009, 9:25 AM
I posted this and a link to your blog on our local car club board with a majority of SD people on who are also gun owners. I think I have to work that Saturday. I will check.

I saw some hits from socaleuro.com on my stats counter, thanks for posting it there!

Also, N6ATF posted it on Scandiego.com so thanks to him as well!

pingpong
02-02-2009, 10:05 AM
Forgive me if I'm asking a dumb (and probably repeat question), but how exactly does the law involving open carry and transportation of a firearm in a car interact? californiaopencarry.org states that it is legal to open carry while driving a car, but how does that work with the "handguns capable of being concealed on the person must be unloaded in trunk or locked container" rule in a car. I thought that having an unlocked handgun in a car automatically made it "concealed", or am I mistaken?

gravedigger
02-02-2009, 10:21 AM
State has preemption for firearm laws. The boardwalk is not considered part of the park and if it were, I am certain the detective would have informed us of that minor technicality and suggested another location.

I don't want to sound paranoid, but is this "detective" REALLY on our side, or is he setting us up for a massive, public confiscation that he will claim to have no prior knowledge about when it occurs? You know, if the cops move in donning their riot gear and other "scary" costumes, lights flashing and helicopters circling, the news would have a field day with it ... "Police move in on armed mob! Dozens of scary-looking, dangerous HANDGUNS confiscated!"

It isn't that I DO NOT trust the police. It is that the police have clearly demonstrated to me on several occasions that I CANNOT trust the police.

pingpong
02-02-2009, 10:25 AM
BTW, is this detective associated with SDPD, or is he/she a PI of sorts?

gravedigger
02-02-2009, 10:42 AM
As for empty holsters? I don't understand that personally.

Actually, an empty holster makes a statement of its own. When someone asks you why you are wearing an empty holster, it allows you to enter into a dialogue about the ridiculousness of it, being that you are UNarmed and UNable to defend yourself or another citizen against a sudden, violent and deadly attack that always occurs without warning. You can drift into a discussion about all of the people who have been murdered "because their holster was empty" (they weren't carrying) at the San Ysidro McDonalds, Columbine, VA Tech, The Layne Bryant Women's Clothing Store in Chicago, etc. etc.

You can tell them that you ARE a legal and responsible gun owner, but current state law forbids you to carry a loaded weapon for self-defense, and those same laws prevent him or her from carrying one for self defense as well. It gets them to start thinking about why THEIR "holster" is empty!

pullnshoot25
02-02-2009, 10:50 AM
I don't want to sound paranoid, but is this "detective" REALLY on our side, or is he setting us up for a massive, public confiscation that he will claim to have no prior knowledge about when it occurs? You know, if the cops move in donning their riot gear and other "scary" costumes, lights flashing and helicopters circling, the news would have a field day with it ... "Police move in on armed mob! Dozens of scary-looking, dangerous HANDGUNS confiscated!"

It isn't that I DO NOT trust the police. It is that the police have clearly demonstrated to me on several occasions that I CANNOT trust the police.

I understand the fears that some of you may have about this detective and based on what has been happening around these here parts (say with a southern drawl :) ) I do not blame any of you guys. However, in this instance I feel that our (gun owners) trust in this man is not misplaced.

This detective is a good man and he has my trust in these matters as well as the trust of gir007. He is sort of our liaison between the citizens and the police department and is very vocal himself about the open carry movement. He has issued memos of his own to the SDPD and was upset that he was not consulted for the recent training bulletin released and at last check is trying to get it revised so that we don't have to deal with all the FUD put out on us. He is a SD equivalent of Liberty1, just not as active on this forum as of yet. However, he reads Calguns and does watch over us, so to speak.

I understand

pullnshoot25
02-02-2009, 10:51 AM
BTW, is this detective associated with SDPD, or is he/she a PI of sorts?

This detective is a sworn SDPD officer.

pullnshoot25
02-02-2009, 10:53 AM
Forgive me if I'm asking a dumb (and probably repeat question), but how exactly does the law involving open carry and transportation of a firearm in a car interact? californiaopencarry.org states that it is legal to open carry while driving a car, but how does that work with the "handguns capable of being concealed on the person must be unloaded in trunk or locked container" rule in a car. I thought that having an unlocked handgun in a car automatically made it "concealed", or am I mistaken?

Not dumb at all, it is the nuances of the law that are a pain in the posterior. :)

If you are not within 1000' of a school and the gun is unloaded, you can carry it openly in your car. However, the hassle associated with this is too much for even myself and therefore I lock it up in the trunk unless it is just a short distance between places.

AEC1
02-02-2009, 11:09 AM
If I am not mistaken this is the same detective that helped us out on our first luch at El Indio?

pingpong
02-02-2009, 11:09 AM
Not dumb at all, it is the nuances of the law that are a pain in the posterior. :)

If you are not within 1000' of a school and the gun is unloaded, you can carry it openly in your car. However, the hassle associated with this is too much for even myself and therefore I lock it up in the trunk unless it is just a short distance between places.

Ah, I see. Hopefully I'm not threadjacking, but this is a pretty interesting topic. What determines if it's open in the car (i.e. on top of the seat, etc?)? Would window tint make it "concealed" since it's not visible from the outside?

Just out of curiosity, have you even been refused entrance or asked to leave a business because of OC?

In any case, I wish I were down in Socal to partake (or at least show support) for this event. Wish a party like this could be thrown up here, but I'm pretty sure the entire town of Bezerkely (save for a few of my gun-toting neighbors) would throw the largest hissy-fit ever seen.

pullnshoot25
02-02-2009, 12:59 PM
If I am not mistaken this is the same detective that helped us out on our first luch at El Indio?

You are correct :)

pullnshoot25
02-02-2009, 1:03 PM
Ah, I see. Hopefully I'm not threadjacking, but this is a pretty interesting topic. What determines if it's open in the car (i.e. on top of the seat, etc?)? Would window tint make it "concealed" since it's not visible from the outside?

Just out of curiosity, have you even been refused entrance or asked to leave a business because of OC?

In any case, I wish I were down in Socal to partake (or at least show support) for this event. Wish a party like this could be thrown up here, but I'm pretty sure the entire town of Bezerkely (save for a few of my gun-toting neighbors) would throw the largest hissy-fit ever seen.

Check my blog (address in sig line) for my stories and links to all the memos.

Window tint isnt considered concealing the weapon AFAIK, but something physically covering a part or all of the gun is considered concealed. Of course, holsters are exempt from that BUT the gun has to be on the person, not stuck in a holster on the seat. (Someone correct me if I am wrong)

I have only had two adverse reactions to my open carry activities. Once I was asked to take my gun out of Costco once and the other was that I was illegally detained at North County Fair (local mall) by mall security.

Theseus
02-02-2009, 5:43 PM
12025(f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

It is widely believed that this is not a singular exception. That is to say that it doesn't mean that ONLY holsters on your belt are exempt but that as an example. . . a holster openly carried..

Shoulder holster...Ok
Back holster...Ok. . .
Paddle holster...on your passenger seat...Ok.

You have to also understand that the firearm, provided it is readily and easily identifiable as a firearm is not concealed. . . Some have even suggested that ITW holsters are Ok provided that the part of the gun that is showing is not concealed. . . Best when shirt it tucked.

LOW2000
02-02-2009, 7:41 PM
Just a heads up for those coming, I'll be bringing two XL white Calguns t-shirts if a couple people want to buy em @ $10 ea, i'll be wearing the 3rd. :)

slappomatt
02-02-2009, 8:28 PM
I'm in. probably going to bring 2-3 friends and maybe my wife if I can talk her into it :)

pullnshoot25
02-02-2009, 9:20 PM
Woo Hoo! I am trying to get Mollie to come too for those that remember her from the Girls and Guns thread, haha!

I called three gun shops today and posted the invite up on another 3-4 forums, WOOT!

gir007
02-02-2009, 11:02 PM
For those concerned about the detective I talk to him on a regular basis. He was the one watching over us on the first outing. for another update, he was asked by his superiors to be assigned to our thing ect so he will be checking weapons ect but that will be a painless and very quick thing, he already knows we comply ect. So we should have no bad issues with the outing and he's even looking for restaraunts in the eares we can walk to thats out of the school zones. and is looking for an opportunity to get us some community service stuff that we can do and stay legal.

pullnshoot25
02-02-2009, 11:09 PM
For those concerned about the detective I talk to him on a regular basis. He was the one watching over us on the first outing. for another update, he was asked by his superiors to be assigned to our thing ect so he will be checking weapons ect but that will be a painless and very quick thing, he already knows we comply ect. So we should have no bad issues with the outing and he's even looking for restaraunts in the eares we can walk to thats out of the school zones. and is looking for an opportunity to get us some community service stuff that we can do and stay legal.

Right freaking on!

elsensei
02-03-2009, 1:12 AM
Woo Hoo! I am trying to get Mollie to come too for those that remember her from the Girls and Guns thread, haha!

I called three gun shops today and posted the invite up on another 3-4 forums, WOOT!

BRO, you gotta get mollie to come. tell her if she shows up i'll loan her my desert eagle. i'd love to see her with that big cannon strapped to her leg- it'd be hilarious.

Mulay El Raisuli
02-03-2009, 6:26 AM
MER, I recommend the .38.

Now i'm trying to come up with a reason why that isn't rooted in concern over what some pantywaist passerby will think.

Here's one...i guarantee the cops will know even less about open-carry saber laws than they do about open carry firearms.

I guess i think that you ought to bring the gun instead of the sword because swords aren't being threatened like guns and gun owners are, and with this nutty administration things are going to get very interesting very quickly and i don't believe we'll have many more opportunities to make a political statement and bringing a gun to a pro-gun event would show a greater measure of solidarity.

Having said all that, I'm a libertarian so do whatever you want! :)


Hmmm. Keeping focused on the task at hand is probably best. Sorry, P&S, I'll save the saber for a time when the full scope of The Right needs clarifying. But for the 28th., I'll wear the .38.

The Raisuli

elsensei
02-03-2009, 7:43 AM
good! thanks for coming aboard. :)

pullnshoot25
02-03-2009, 9:40 AM
BRO, you gotta get mollie to come. tell her if she shows up i'll loan her my desert eagle. i'd love to see her with that big cannon strapped to her leg- it'd be hilarious.

But isn't the DEagle for Lisa? HAHA. I was thinking just the Single Six since that was what she was pictured with. I'll keep on her about it.

gir007
02-03-2009, 9:57 AM
hey we should have a frisbee toss or somthing just to have bit of fun like if its legal to on the sand or something.

CmpsdNoMore
02-03-2009, 10:43 AM
I'll gladly bring my ultimate frisbee to open carry.
Just let me check and make sure it's legal.

BTF/PTM
02-03-2009, 11:45 AM
I'm excited, this open carry event is gonna be fun :) I gotta find a holster. Anyone got a loaner holster for a P220 or P226?

pullnshoot25
02-03-2009, 11:51 AM
I'll gladly bring my ultimate frisbee to open carry.
Just let me check and make sure it's legal.

I am checking myself right now. God love homework breaks!

pullnshoot25
02-03-2009, 12:04 PM
Well, unless there is some grassy knoll or sect of private land in the area I don't know about, we might have some issues OCing and playing a game. All the grass areas above the beach are parks and so is the beach itself so we will probably have to take our guns off and then go play.

Now, here is the question... say we take off our guns to go play, as in pulling off our holsters with the guns still in them and securing them... do we put them em in an ordered pile or so we have to lock them up? If we put them in backpacks or a case they have to be locked up because they are then "concealed" or whatever. I guess the best way would be to pile all the guns into one car in locked bags close by but I dunno, I am not familiar with the area.

I will be there early for sure so I might snag a parking spot suitable for firearm storage if you guys want to horse around for a bit, I think it would be great.

Here is a map of the Mission Beach area. The place we are meeting is in the NW corner.

http://www.sandiego.gov/park-and-recreation/pdf/missionbaymap.pdf

Cypren
02-03-2009, 12:11 PM
If we put them in backpacks or a case they have to be locked up because they are then "concealed" or whatever.

Personally, given the hostility many CA authorities have shown towards 2A supporters and UOC in particular, I wouldn't be comfortable doing this. There's too high of a chance that a "gotcha" cop might claim you had "concealed" the weapon as soon as you put it in the case and try to stop you before you can snap a lock on it -- thereby having all the evidence he needs that you had a concealed, unlocked weapon.

But maybe I'm just paranoid.

Liberty1
02-03-2009, 12:12 PM
I'm excited, this open carry event is gonna be fun :) I gotta find a holster. Anyone got a loaner holster for a P220 or P226?


Go buy a Serpa (http://www.lapolicegear.com/blcqcsehomaf.html). Seriously. Spend a little money and get a good holster.

Cypren
02-03-2009, 12:13 PM
Go buy a Serpa (http://www.lapolicegear.com/blcqcsehomaf.html). Seriously. Spend a little money and get a good holster.

+1. Best holster I've ever owned. Will hold the weapon through a roller coaster ride in a hurricane but still lets it out instantly when you need it.

Liberty1
02-03-2009, 12:25 PM
Well, unless there is some grassy knoll or sect of private land in the area I don't know about, we might have some issues OCing and playing a game. All the grass areas above the beach are parks and so is the beach itself so we will probably have to take our guns off and then go play.

http://www.sandiego.gov/park-and-recreation/pdf/missionbaymap.pdf



Why do you think the beach is a prohibited area? Is it a state (park) beach? Does the City of SD or SD County have an ordinance?

If not why would you take them off? They are unloaded. I don't see you all playing tackle football:p. Remember: Keep It Simple Stupid

elsensei
02-03-2009, 1:11 PM
well, what about this...if three guys want to play frisbee on the beach, they can clip their holstered guns on my belt. it's legal to loan a handgun, and there are no restrictions i know of on the number of guns you can OC at once. plus, it would be hilarious.

i'll stand there safely on the boardwalk with 4 firearms and only two hands, contemplating getting a couple more arms grafted on somewhere. haha!

oh, the ridiculousness of it all.

Decoligny
02-03-2009, 1:18 PM
Personally, given the hostility many CA authorities have shown towards 2A supporters and UOC in particular, I wouldn't be comfortable doing this. There's too high of a chance that a "gotcha" cop might claim you had "concealed" the weapon as soon as you put it in the case and try to stop you before you can snap a lock on it -- thereby having all the evidence he needs that you had a concealed, unlocked weapon.

But maybe I'm just paranoid.

Yeah I think you are.

The way to avoid that is to lay the gun down in your trunk, fully exposed for all the world to see, then look all around your car to make sure no LEO is lurking nearby, maybe crouched down by your rear tire, just waiting for the opportunity to jam his arm in as you slam the trunk lid down. If he isn't hiding under the car, or if he doesn't have Ninja Invisibility, then you should have plenty of time to get the trunk locked before any LEO can stop you.

Cypren
02-03-2009, 1:32 PM
The way to avoid that is to lay the gun down in your trunk, fully exposed for all the world to see, then look all around your car to make sure no LEO is lurking nearby, maybe crouched down by your rear tire, just waiting for the opportunity to jam his arm in as you slam the trunk lid down. If he isn't hiding under the car, or if he doesn't have Ninja Invisibility, then you should have plenty of time to get the trunk locked before any LEO can stop you.

I sprinkle mummy dust everywhere first to make sure it'll reveal any ninja cops... :TFH:

No, I realize it's a high degree of paranoia, but I've seen some pretty egregious incidents of law enforcement "professionals" abusing citizens under the aura of self-righteousness in their cause. I don't think most LEOs are that way, and in fact I think most of the "beat cops" are probably far more sympathetic to our 2A rights than their bosses -- or at least, all of the ones I've talked to sure are.

But at the same time, I can't ignore the fact that there are plenty of people looking for any and all of us to slip even a little bit so they can pounce and "make an example." So I'd prefer to adhere to the letter of the law so stringently that they can't make any excuse at all -- and one of the ways I do that is to make sure that my sidearm never leaves the holster and enters a case except when I'm standing on private property (with owner permission!) where public brandishing and concealment laws don't apply.

Too cautious? Probably. But being overly cautious is less likely to lead to large legal bills. ;)

GuyW
02-03-2009, 1:44 PM
....standing on private property (with owner permission!) where public brandishing and concealment laws don't apply.

Um, IIRC, "brandishing" does NOT require it to be in public.

...and concealment laws apply on private property, its merely that you have satisfied them if you have owner approval...

.

Liberty1
02-03-2009, 3:31 PM
Personally, given the hostility many CA authorities have shown towards 2A supporters and UOC in particular, I wouldn't be comfortable doing this. There's too high of a chance that a "gotcha" cop might claim you had "concealed" the weapon as soon as you put it in the case and try to stop you before you can snap a lock on it -- thereby having all the evidence he needs that you had a concealed, unlocked weapon.

But maybe I'm just paranoid.

Check out californiaopencarry.org if you haven't. We recommend SOP to help minimize a negative leo encounter such as carrying the brochures, having friendly witnesses, and possessing a recording device along with having conversational knowledge of the penal code and applicable case laws.

UOC is not for most at this time. We are trying to change that so LOC at any time is! :thumbsup:

Cypren
02-03-2009, 3:50 PM
Um, IIRC, "brandishing" does NOT require it to be in public.

...and concealment laws apply on private property, its merely that you have satisfied them if you have owner approval...

Fair point, and I apologize for the poor semantics. What I should have said was "where merely removing the weapon from its holster is highly unlikely to be construed as brandishing due to lack of public audience and where owner permission satisfies the exemption under the concealment law."

UOC is not for most at this time. We are trying to change that so LOC at any time is!

Very true. I believe in what the UOC movement is doing and that it's a necessary statement; I just think that it's best to take every possible precaution when doing it so as to avoid becoming a negative public symbol for the movement. :)

Obviously each person can decide for themselves what constitutes "acceptable risk" -- my definition is probably more stringent than most.

Liberty1
02-03-2009, 3:53 PM
Very true. I believe in what the UOC movement is doing and that it's a necessary statement;

Your support and greenbacks are very much appreciated :) http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150893

BTF/PTM
02-03-2009, 6:01 PM
What sizes are the remaining CalGuns shirts? I'll wear one if they fit me.

p.s - my local store is ordering me a Serpa, I'll pick it up on the 12th when the wait is done for my 10/22 :D

pullnshoot25
02-03-2009, 7:34 PM
Why do you think the beach is a prohibited area? Is it a state (park) beach? Does the City of SD or SD County have an ordinance?

If not why would you take them off? They are unloaded. I don't see you all playing tackle football:p. Remember: Keep It Simple Stupid

HEY! I ain't stupid! ;)

I am checking on the legalities tomorrow. Ultimate frisbee on the beach while strapped would be freaking fun.

VW*Mike
02-03-2009, 8:34 PM
I think it was mentioned earlier, but have you contacted the city to see if we could volunteer for trash removal on the beach? As long as they let us all OC on the beach then that would be a great public service that is easy and great for the community, form a line and walk the beach.

pullnshoot25
02-03-2009, 8:51 PM
I think it was mentioned earlier, but have you contacted the city to see if we could volunteer for trash removal on the beach? As long as they let us all OC on the beach then that would be a great public service that is easy and great for the community, form a line and walk the beach.

Gosh, can you imagine what a cool photo that would be? WOO HOO!

Liberty1
02-03-2009, 9:56 PM
I hope everyone who is attending the SD meet-up will, before spending $20 on lunch, drop a $25, $50, or $100 donation into the Open Carry Legal Defense Fund for Theseus' "School Zone" (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150893) case in LA County.




We back our own!:79:

jazman
02-03-2009, 10:01 PM
Just as a practical matter, why take a chance of getting sand in your guns? Man, I hate sand in things it shouldn't be in!:eek:

pullnshoot25
02-03-2009, 10:06 PM
Just as a practical matter, why take a chance of getting sand in your guns? Man, I hate sand in things it shouldn't be in!:eek:

Field strip practice? HAHA. It won't be so bad having a little sand in the gun, its not like we are going to roll our guns around in it!

Liberty1
02-03-2009, 10:15 PM
Field strip practice? HAHA. It won't be so bad having a little sand in the gun, its not like we are going to roll our guns around in it!

You need to find someone with enough boat space to take everyone out past the 3 mile limit for a little live fire exercise.
:)

pullnshoot25
02-03-2009, 10:35 PM
You need to find someone with enough boat space to take everyone out past the 3 mile limit for a little live fire exercise.
:)

That would be so freaking rad. How is the Navy for open spaces?

pullnshoot25
02-03-2009, 11:07 PM
So my brother posted the invite to the open carry outing on customtacos.com and it has created quite a stir. As one can see, I joined the forum for the purpose of setting the record straight (gets juicy on 4th and 5th pages)

http://www.customtacos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127580

What do you guys think?

CitaDeL
02-04-2009, 7:16 AM
So my brother posted the invite to the open carry outing on customtacos.com and it has created quite a stir. As one can see, I joined the forum for the purpose of setting the record straight (gets juicy on 4th and 5th pages)

http://www.customtacos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127580

What do you guys think?

One thing we all should be aware of is the fact that because we are ambassadors for the gun community, we must, no matter how tiresome and repetitve it is, communicate our message with consistancy to everyone. Whether it is a custom truck community, a church group, or a underwater basket weaving club, we must patiently inform and educate those folks who are a blank slate or on the fence. Because this is where our greatest gains are.

Taking this to groups outside the firearms community is genius- the execution of which requires us to be sensitive to the fact that not all people think like we do. It might be helpful, if when there are detractors of an open carry meet, to simply invite them to the function, rather be drawn into or engage in an arguement with someone who has already made up their minds. Perhaps they would attend, for no other reason than to satisfy their curiosity. Perhaps at the same time we could dispell the notion that gun owners fall into stereotypes harmful to our cause.

If one person from these Other Than Gun Groups attends, I would say you have suceeded in growing the movement.

Mulay El Raisuli
02-04-2009, 7:49 AM
Here is a map of the Mission Beach area. The place we are meeting is in the NW corner.

http://www.sandiego.gov/park-and-recreation/pdf/missionbaymap.pdf


Just to clarify, we will meet at Santa Clara Cove? Or nearer to the boat ramp a bit south of that in San Juan Cove?

The Raisuli

Mulay El Raisuli
02-04-2009, 7:51 AM
If not why would you take them off? They are unloaded. I don't see you all playing tackle football:p. Remember: Keep It Simple Stupid


I agree. I'm not seeing the necessity for not carrying & frisbee while strapped sounds like fun to me also.

The Raisuli

pullnshoot25
02-04-2009, 9:17 AM
Just to clarify, we will meet at Santa Clara Cove? Or nearer to the boat ramp a bit south of that in San Juan Cove?

The Raisuli

Nope, where the circle and two crappy arrows are!

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r369/calgunfun2/th_meetup.jpg (http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r369/calgunfun2/?action=view&current=meetup.jpg)

pullnshoot25
02-04-2009, 9:29 AM
As usual, the bureaucracy is not helping me determine which jurisdiction the beaches fall under. On their website there is no mention of guns but that is irrelevant until I can figure out if the beaches are state parks or city parks. If city, then we can go full bore. If state, we are SOL.

Liberty1
02-04-2009, 9:59 AM
As usual, the bureaucracy is not helping me determine which jurisdiction the beaches fall under. On their website there is no mention of guns but that is irrelevant until I can figure out if the beaches are state parks or city parks. If city, then we can go full bore. If state, we are SOL.


K.I.S.S. :cool2: don't bit off more then you can chew. You also have a lot of nubs comming out and now you've branched out to non-firearm related websites (go easy...all ahead slowwwwwww;) IMO ;))

pullnshoot25
02-04-2009, 10:04 AM
K.I.S.S. :cool2: don't bit off more then you can chew. You also have a lot of nubs comming out and now you've branched out to non-firearm related websites (go easy...all ahead slowwwwwww;) IMO ;))

You are right, maybe I am getting ahead of myself. However, knowing the legalities will be cool for those times when we want to do a beach cleanup or other service project.

pullnshoot25
02-04-2009, 10:37 AM
Just got off the phone with the Permit Center and I was informed that the area from Sunset Cliffs (Ocean Beach) until Blacks Beach (near UCSD in La Jolla) is CITY owned and therefore city rules apply. Still looking into it further but for now I have an errand to run and homework to look over.

Beach regulations here...

http://www.sandiego.gov/lifeguards/safety/bchreg.shtml

Mulay El Raisuli
02-05-2009, 6:39 AM
Nope, where the circle and two crappy arrows are!

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r369/calgunfun2/th_meetup.jpg (http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r369/calgunfun2/?action=view&current=meetup.jpg)


I see that as at the corner of Grand & Mission. I will be there.

I looked over the regs for city beaches also. I can't smoke??? Egad!

The Raisuli

pullnshoot25
02-05-2009, 6:51 AM
I see that as at the corner of Grand & Mission. I will be there.

I looked over the regs for city beaches also. I can't smoke??? Egad!

The Raisuli

Can't smoke on the beach, though the boardwalk might be open...

Liberty1
02-05-2009, 7:48 AM
http://www.customtacos.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1519443&postcount=7

Nate,

Make sure you communicate that any "loans" require that the recipient has a "Handgun Safety Card". This is one of the problems encountered when we expand this to include other groups.

Better yet I'd vote for no loans (unless it is to a VERY close friend w/HSC).

And at any of the "hundreds" of other forums:p where you cross posted, make sure you tell the noobs to tell you they're combing. Even encourage them to NOT bring arms the first time (if they haven't joined Calguns and studied the brochures and OC stories and same for those who say they don't have a holster - tell them to buy a serpa!).

They (any noobs) are kinda under your wing. Make sure they know what they're getting in to. Just ask them to RSVP with you :thumbsup: at least.

You also need to have a check list for noobs to follow IF they are attending armed like:

1) At home: place unloaded pistol in FULLY enclosed LOCKED case. Place loaded mags into exposed mag belt pouch on belt.

2) carry case to car

3) drive to parking area, put on empty holster

4) remove locked case from vehicle (important to complete exemption in 12026.1a if carrying concealed)

5) open case place unloaded handgun into holster


Put something like that on the blog and tell people to follow it. I'd still prefer that noobs study, study, study and then study some more before taking the plunge but the SD meet is probably the "safest" event they can participate in.

Thanks for the hard work down in SD.

pullnshoot25
02-05-2009, 9:27 AM
http://www.customtacos.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1519443&postcount=7

Nate,

Make sure you communicate that any "loans" require that the recipient has a "Handgun Safety Card". This is one of the problems encountered when we expand this to include other groups.

Better yet I'd vote for no loans (unless it is to a VERY close friend w/HSC).

And at any of the "hundreds" of other forums:p where you cross posted, make sure you tell the noobs to tell you they're combing. Even encourage them to NOT bring arms the first time (if they haven't joined Calguns and studied the brochures and OC stories and same for those who say they don't have a holster - tell them to buy a serpa!).

They (any noobs) are kinda under your wing. Make sure they know what they're getting in to. Just ask them to RSVP with you :thumbsup: at least.

You also need to have a check list for noobs to follow IF they are attending armed like:

1) At home: place unloaded pistol in FULLY enclosed LOCKED case. Place loaded mags into exposed mag belt pouch on belt.

2) carry case to car

3) drive to parking area, put on empty holster

4) remove locked case from vehicle (important to complete exemption in 12026.1a if carrying concealed)

5) open case place unloaded handgun into holster


Put something like that on the blog and tell people to follow it. I'd still prefer that noobs study, study, study and then study some more before taking the plunge but the SD meet is probably the "safest" event they can participate in.

Thanks for the hard work down in SD.

You got it, I will be post it up on the forums ASAP.

-N8

Liberty1
02-05-2009, 10:05 AM
You got it, I will be post it up on the forums ASAP.

-N8

Not soooooo fast. Be sure to include a link to a primary source (PC or californiaopencarry.org with their links) so they can see the logic (or illogic) as to why certain steps are being recommended.

Also read this and spread it around to your friends http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=21899#p249180

It is a great example of "web" diplomacy that ALL of us must practice in our communications. Those who are being exposed for the first time to these ideas must be gently nudged not beat over the head with our righteousness (now matter how right we are) ;).

pullnshoot25
02-05-2009, 10:16 AM
Not soooooo fast. Be sure to include a link to a primary source (PC or californiaopencarry.org with their links) so they can see the logic (or illogic) as to why certain steps are being recommended.

Also read this and spread it around to your friends http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=21899#p249180

It is a great example of "web" diplomacy that ALL of us must practice in our communications. Those who are being exposed for the first time to these ideas must be gently nudged not beat over the head with our righteousness (now matter how right we are) ;).

I got all the PC stuff on the blog under "Essential Open Carry Links", all memos, fliers and californiaopencarry.org. I referenced it in the blog to be sure.

pullnshoot25
02-05-2009, 11:03 AM
Blog updated with more info and a request for RSVP. I pulled the names of those stating they would attend off this thread already but I am sure there are more that just haven't responded so please RSVP!

-N8

Liberty1
02-05-2009, 8:59 PM
pictures from the first SD OC meet-up

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1373790&postcount=342

pullnshoot25
02-05-2009, 10:59 PM
pictures from the first SD OC meet-up

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1373790&postcount=342

Posted it up, good idea!

In other news, I emailed an invite to El Cajon Gun Exchange today and I was told to give Ron Godwin a call. After a chat with Ron about the OC movement, some of my personal stories and details about the SDPD memo, I am stoked to say that not this Sunday but NEXT Sunday I will be interviewed by him over the phone for his radio show about said OC movement. FREAKING STOKED! He has apparently never heard of any of the OCers and I am glad for this opportunity. I will keep you guys posted!

KCBQ AM 1170 Sundays 6-7 pm

gir007
02-06-2009, 1:14 AM
wow nice man, if I can listen I shall.. have fun!

SanSacto
02-06-2009, 1:17 AM
I am so caught up in my other projects I haven't even bought a holster for my one and only handgun yet. No open carry for me.

ENTHUSIAST
02-06-2009, 6:50 PM
Hey pullnshoot, I noticed that you made the Ron Paul Meet-Up Group event calendar!!! :hurray:

I spoke to the SD Libertarian Meet-Up group regarding the event and informed them about the PB UOC event. Regan from the RP group was there as well. Did you talk to him about this to...? I seen you are post on the event nice.

I made it VERY clear at the Libertarian dinner that this is an UNLOADED Open Carry event and went over school zones and keeping mags openly in belt holsters.

This like 80 years old lady was STOKED to hear about Open Carry and I gave her your blog address and brought CalGuns.net stickers that I displayed during the dinner and I even got up on the microphone and officially announced the event and cordially invited them all!!! :)

pullnshoot25
02-06-2009, 6:53 PM
Hey pullnshoot, I noticed that you made the Ron Paul Meet-Up Group event calendar!!! :hurray:

I spoke to the SD Libertarian Meet-Up group regarding the event and informed them about the PB UOC event. Regan from the RP group was there as well. Did you talk to him about this to...? I seen you are post on the event nice.

I made it VERY clear at the Libertarian dinner that this is an UNLOADED Open Carry event and went over school zones and keeping mags openly in bely holsters.

This like 80 years old lady was STOKED to hear about Open Carry and I gave her your bolg address and brought CalGuns.net stickers that I displayed during the dinner and I even got up on the microphone and officially announced the event and cordially invited them all!!! :)

THAT'S AWESOME! I sent a message to every Ron Paul group in SD but I don't know how many of them actually posted the notice. They have been invited though!

THIS IS GOING TO BE GOOOOD!

ENTHUSIAST
02-06-2009, 7:02 PM
THAT'S AWESOME! I sent a message to every Ron Paul group in SD but I don't know how many of them actually posted the notice. They have been invited though!

THIS IS GOING TO BE GOOOOD!

Regan sent this email out to everyone in the group (Ask me how I know! :D ):


---Cut---

[ronpaul-93] New Meetup: San Diego, Public, Open Carry MEET & GREET!
Announcing a new Meetup for Ron Paul Inspired: San Diego Liberty Circle!

What: San Diego Open Carry MEET!

When: February 28, 2009 9:30 AM

Where: Click the link below to find out!

Meetup Description: To all concerned patriots, free men and women of able mind and body,

For all those that are new, fairly new and are trying out Open Carry for the first time, this is a GREAT opportunity to "cut your teeth" on the Open Carry Movement, meet fellow California gun owners, Calguns.net and Opencarry.com members and other citizens of like mind.

You are cordially invited to represent Calguns.net, Opencarry.org and your beloved Constitution at yet another San Diego Open Carry Outing!

Let us see some support out there! Here are the details.

-When: Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 at 9:30AM
-Where: The main lifeguard tower at the end of Grand Avenue, on the boardwalk between the showers and the big pelican. You can't miss the pelican! This location is in San Diego in Mission Beach!

-Details............

1) The really cool and pro-2nd Amendment detective from the first San Diego Open Carry Lunch at El Indio will be attending our outing in plain clothes. From what I know he is a good man and he knows the restaurants in the area so we will have fun and good food as well.

2) The film crew that will be filming us is not a news station or anything official, it is actually a married couple that are friends with Chris (gir007) and will probably be making a documentary video for us. From what I hear they are really cool people and are doing this for free so for those that can chip in for their lunch it would be much appreciated.

3) Dressing the part (UPDATED 1-26)... This is, above all else, a chance to create good public relations with those less knowledgeable about firearms and firearm laws and to dispell the common myths that hold gun owners in a bad light. As such, it has been imparted to me by those wiser in such matters (Liberty1) that dressing the part is essential. Therefore, it is requested that those attending this outing be nicely attired. (CHANGE HERE)--> Since slacks to a beach function is almost silly, I say that we dress in what is comfortable but also looks nice, as open carrying is already hard enough as it is and we shouldn't have to dress up the occasion as well.

A suggestion though is to not have t-shirts that could be used against us in a stereotype, e.g. smiley face with bloody hole in the head, etc. While fun amongst gun owners, it is not the best PR with those not in the gun community so lets keep it clean cut.

4) We are going to a restaurant somewhere on the boardwalk, though the restaurant has not been revealed to me as of yet. Our good detective is taking a look at a few of them and Sam has had some suggestions but I must admit I am not familiar with the area myself so I will keep you all posted as this develops.

-School zones, other rules, etc.

1) There are no school zones in the area we are gathering and walking but there are two in the area that will be of concern for those parking, packing and walking from farther distances, so plan your routes appropriately. Here are the names and addresses for the two applicable schools so that you might plan.

Full-screen

St Paul's Lutheran School (K-12)

1376 Felspar St
San Diego, CA 92109Full-screen


Pioneer Day School (K-12)

4240 Gresham Street
Pacific Beach, CA 92109


Please do not be afraid to contact me with any questions regarding this outing or to attend, the more the merrier! For those interested, my email address is pullnshoot25@hotmail.com and my Calguns.net handle is pullnshoot25.

Learn more here:
http://ronpaul.meetup.com/93/calendar/9675691/


This message was sent by Regan (ashbyregan@yahoo.com) from Ron Paul Inspired: San Diego Liberty Circle.

---Cut---

and I noticed this calendar event as well...
http://ronpaul.meetup.com/93/calendar/9675691/

pullnshoot25
02-06-2009, 7:11 PM
Oh yeah, I am familiar with that one, Sam posted it up! I invited this group http://libertarian.meetup.com/293/ but they have been unresponsive... it is a big group of Libertarians too!

Should I invite the Republican Meetups as well? I looked at one and it said that the Libertarians weren't welcome because they abused the privilege... which I can only take to mean that they were asked all the hard questions and couldn't answer them? ;)

ENTHUSIAST
02-06-2009, 7:27 PM
Has anyone talked to Jay La Suer or Bruce Ruff or about this event?

GuyW
02-06-2009, 7:43 PM
Has anyone talked to Bruce Ruff... about this event?

Why would we want a vote-splitting spoiler there?

---> post #106
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=1985661&highlight=vote+splitter#post1985661

.

cgseanp1
02-06-2009, 7:46 PM
Can I come and strap my AR 15 on my back?? :D

ENTHUSIAST
02-06-2009, 8:26 PM
Why would we want a vote-splitting spoiler there?

---> post #106
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=1985661&highlight=vote+splitter#post1985661

.

OK Jay La Suer is the man I know, I just thought that it would be nice to have a little dialogue between the two Pro-Gun Candidates... I wonder if either would show how Pro 2A they really are by supporting us since they are asking us to support them...

Sorry Off topic.

ENTHUSIAST
02-06-2009, 8:28 PM
Can I come and strap my AR 15 on my back?? :D

Legally: YES

Is it a good idea to win "hearts and minds" of the general public: NO:90:

GuyW
02-06-2009, 8:36 PM
OK Jay La Suer is the man I know, I just thought that it would be nice to have a little dialogue between the two Pro-Gun Candidates... I wonder if either would show have Pro 2A they really are by supporting us since they are asking us to support them...

Sorry Off topic.

I voted for Bruce and supported him in my own feeble way, the last go-around. I wish he'd won.

I emailed him _before_ Jay entered the race and he said he would NOT run! (emailed Jay, too, before he jumped in)....so its not that I'm down on Bruce.

...its just that ANY and all other conservative folks that enter the race now will only peel votes away from Jay, AND THUS ASSURE our defeat.

Any potential candidate can absolutely be assumed to know this, so for them to enter the race anyway, is either a reflection of their ego, or an indifference to us winning the big fight...or both....

.

ENTHUSIAST
02-06-2009, 8:49 PM
I voted for Bruce and supported him in my own feeble way, the last go-around. I wish he'd won.

I emailed him _before_ Jay entered the race and he said he would NOT run! (emailed Jay, too, before he jumped in)....so its not that I'm down on Bruce.

...its just that ANY and all other conservative folks that enter the race now will only peel votes away from Jay, AND THUS ASSURE our defeat.

Any potential candidate can absolutely be assumed to know this, so for them to enter the race anyway, is either a reflection of their ego, or an indifference to us winning the big fight...or both....

.

I have just started learning about Jay La Suer and his Pro-CCW stance since his posting here on CG I will definitely vote for Jay because he is one of us!!! I just wasnt aware of the dynamics of the Sheriff election. THANKS for the clarity GuyW.

One last question who is Jay La Suer running against that has the biggest chance of winning (Please tell me Kolender is in a stooper or passed out somewhere and he cant run again right...? :D )

GuyW
02-06-2009, 9:00 PM
One last question who is Jay La Suer running against that has the biggest chance of winning (Please tell me Kolender is in a stooper or passed out somewhere and he cant run again right...? :D )

I think most of the answers are here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=82332&highlight=la+suer

BTLSmark
02-08-2009, 6:18 PM
Posted it up, good idea!

In other news, I emailed an invite to El Cajon Gun Exchange today and I was told to give Ron Godwin a call. After a chat with Ron about the OC movement, some of my personal stories and details about the SDPD memo, I am stoked to say that not this Sunday but NEXT Sunday I will be interviewed by him over the phone for his radio show about said OC movement. FREAKING STOKED! He has apparently never heard of any of the OCers and I am glad for this opportunity. I will keep you guys posted!

KCBQ AM 1170 Sundays 6-7 pm

Streaming it online, just googled the channel. Glad to hear people talking about gun control issues that have our interests and ideas in our favor.

(edit: fixed my error of using "control" and added a bit)

CitaDeL
02-08-2009, 6:26 PM
Streaming it online, just googled the channel. Glad to hear people talking about gun control.

You mean the gun control that requires use of both hands... or the kind that strips the rights from people through careful creation and manipulation of the legislative process?

BTLSmark
02-08-2009, 6:45 PM
You mean the gun control that requires use of both hands... or the kind that strips the rights from people through careful creation and manipulation of the legislative process?

:( the kind that strips the rights from people through careful creation and manipulation of the legislative process? :( (I need to edit post#151 a bit, now that I read it back it sounds like I am for more gun control.. in which I am not).

I have been reading over the UOC meet posts here and keeping up to date, noticed someone posting this radio station deal on tonight and thought I'd check it out. These guys seem pretty knowledgeable from what I have listened to thus far and seem very on our side. They had some older gentleman on whom was talking about some new county ordinances they are trying to modify in San Diego which in his mind basically make it impossible for you to shoot on your private property (assuming you have a lot of land) and will make shooting ranges, indoor, outdoor, private, public very hard to keep open with all these new rules they attempting to pass :confused: there is a lot of info I am leaving out but I am trying to listen and type at the same time :o

I didn't mean to thread jack the UOC meet, I was just trying to say thanks for the heads up on the radio show :thumbsup:

Theseus
02-08-2009, 10:05 PM
I started a carpool thread here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2010782#post2010782 for those interested in negotiating carpools.

I even mentioned the idea that if we can get enough maybe we could rent a van, bus or something.... Who knows.

Spiggy
02-08-2009, 11:38 PM
it may be wise to post the information on the first page of the forum as people tend to overlook the thing directing us to your blog.

I'm still on the fence regarding showing since it's going to be my birthday and I have a bad tendency of getting in trouble on the particular day.

pullnshoot25
02-08-2009, 11:53 PM
it may be wise to post the information on the first page of the forum as people tend to overlook the thing directing us to your blog.

I'm still on the fence regarding showing since it's going to be my birthday and I have a bad tendency of getting in trouble on the particular day.

Gotcha, first post edited!

gir007
02-11-2009, 6:53 PM
Ok I just had lunch today with the detective, when you arrive you will go in the garage of the lifeguard tower and get your weapon inspected and he said it is possible that they originally wanted to run a background on a few but with the amount of people going he thinks they wont do any. I got some pics of the intersection that the lifeguard station is at, any more questions please ask.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/bunnyblaster22/lifegaurd.jpg

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/bunnyblaster22/intersection.jpg

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/bunnyblaster22/firestation.jpg

jnojr
02-11-2009, 7:00 PM
I voted for Bruce and supported him in my own feeble way, the last go-around. I wish he'd won.

I emailed him _before_ Jay entered the race and he said he would NOT run! (emailed Jay, too, before he jumped in)....so its not that I'm down on Bruce.

...its just that ANY and all other conservative folks that enter the race now will only peel votes away from Jay, AND THUS ASSURE our defeat.

Any chance of getting Ruff to endorse La Suer to all of his supporters?

pullnshoot25
02-11-2009, 7:09 PM
Ok I just had lunch today with the detective, when you arrive you will go in the garage of the lifeguard tower and get your weapon inspected and he said it is possible that they originally wanted to run a background on a few but with the amount of people going he thinks they wont do any. I got some pics of the intersection that the lifeguard station is at, any more questions please ask.

Who is they? is there going to be more than one detective or what?

gir007
02-11-2009, 7:22 PM
the capt from the dept which is heavily invloved with the community and very nice lady and a luitenant.

pullnshoot25
02-11-2009, 8:18 PM
the capt from the dept which is heavily invloved with the community and very nice lady and a luitenant.

That is pretty cool I guess. If they ask to run the numbers on our guns I hope that all those attending will say "no" and keep them focused on what the 12031 unloaded check is- an unloaded check!

gir007
02-11-2009, 8:52 PM
That is pretty cool I guess. If they ask to run the numbers on our guns I hope that all those attending will say "no" and keep them focused on what the 12031 unloaded check is- an unloaded check!

he said nothing of numbers and it was a felony check not registration, and he says 90 percent they only checking for loaded weapons. so just make sure its unloaded and your fine.

CitaDeL
02-11-2009, 9:07 PM
Ok I just had lunch today with the detective, when you arrive you will go in the garage of the lifeguard tower and get your weapon inspected and he said it is possible that they originally wanted to run a background on a few but with the amount of people going he thinks they wont do any. I got some pics of the intersection that the lifeguard station is at, any more questions please ask.


After responding to this at length, the forum ate my response.

In short. I do not approve of the prescreening of participants. It is contrary to the principles of liberty the organizers and participants intend to exercize.

If I were able to attend, I would skip this unwarranted search and lawfully carry my firearm as I have in the past, without photo ID. If the police wanted to initiate contact with me, that is one thing, but I would not submit to screening in advance to set their minds at ease.

Were I the organizer of such an event, I might inform them generally of where, when, and how many participants I expected. In light of this turn, I would not invite them or involve them in the organization of any future meet.

Why should I put my guests to the test, when no approval or qualification is required?

[This is where I stop. It's making me angrier the more I contemplate it.]

gir007
02-11-2009, 9:23 PM
I will have another talk with the detective but all they really wana do is check the weapons for loaded and im sure he can make sure thats all that happens. the only reason the capt wants to be there is because she's heavily involved in the community in pb so she doesn't want to have to deal with a bunch of calls from angry people that she has contact with ect. i at least understand that. but to make another cop know we respect them especially high up ect will also look beter for us down the road and will also future outings will be more hassle free in theory. no if you guys don't even wana just open the chamber of your gun for 2 sec and be off on your merry way then dunno. but I think if we are going to do more large outings ect and do it in heavily pop space ect then to have them know us ect and then that will mean less hassle from cops ect we could have em not come then get calls and have swat or many unhappy sheriffs come in guns pointed at you.

Theseus
02-11-2009, 9:56 PM
If I didn't already say it I will not be cooperating with anything but an "e" check, and only then if I am allowed to SHOW them.

I will not allow them to handle the weapon, run the serial or require ID.

CitaDeL
02-11-2009, 10:32 PM
... all they really wana do is check the weapons for loaded and im sure he can make sure thats all that happens.

Thats not what you indicated in your earlier post. Nevertheless, the orchestration of a loaded check is an indicator that open carriers cannot be trusted to conduct themselves lawfully and that this activity is subject to the approval of the police.

..the only reason the capt wants to be there is because she's heavily involved in the community in pb so she doesn't want to have to deal with a bunch of calls from angry people that she has contact with ect.

That my friend, is part of the strategy behind UOC in California. There must be changes in policy- either the general public is informed of the legality of UOC when they call for report 'an armed subject' or the CLEO's must begin issuing licenses to carry concealed to abate the inconvience of interacting with irrational, emotional reactions to holstered sidearms. But we havent seen the public react that way- and I doubt that it will rise the level of alarm that would require such policy changes.


...to make another cop know we respect them especially high up ect will also look beter for us down the road and will also future outings will be more hassle free in theory.

While fostering good relations with law enforcement is our objective, sucessful repetition will be the only catalyst of normalizing open carry in California. Yes, the Captain should be welcomed- No, we should not set our rights and belief aside to gain political favor. This would be a precident that would open us to more abuses.

I think if we are going to do more large outings ect and do it in heavily pop space ect then to have them know us ect and then that will mean less hassle from cops ect we could have em not come then get calls and have swat or many unhappy sheriffs come in guns pointed at you.

The large outing is anachronistic to regular open carry activities. This however, is the most effective means to encourage others to attempt something as contraversial as gun activism. Many will cut their teeth on this outing- to go on to smaller meets or solo carry. The possibility that someone will call to report whether there are 50 people or 1 person carrying exposed firearms. With repetition, the response we will see from law enforcement will likely more proportionate to the actual threat. I am not aware of any circumstance where SWAT has been summoned (natiowide anecdotes included), and unless there is some other element of danger, I doubt they would ever respond to lawful open carry.

But again- this fits into the strategy. People call. Police respond. Policy will change. The 'less hassle' comes with acclimating the public and police to the sight of keeping and bearing arms. (Or litigating if the circumstances merit such action.)

In the end, I dont believe much is gained by submitting to every check to assure law enforcement that we are lawful, when we have done nothing wrong to begin with.

pullnshoot25
02-11-2009, 11:06 PM
The scope of the check will be limited to the 12031 unloaded check and then we will be on our way. I will not stand for any further transgressions or submit to a registration check. For those concerned about identification just do not carry identification on your person. I will probably just pack a few bucks and my Tracker and all will just be merry.

We are here to build relations with both police and citizens alike. With an event this big we are SURE to get some LEO response and it is far better for it to be positive than negative.

If you guys want to do small group gatherings to incite police calling, I am totally down for that too and we can organize a few of those and make sure no policemen are involved in it, TRUST ME. For this one though, this is to get a bunch of citizens out there to get their feet wet and to create fellowship with other gun owners.

ENTHUSIAST
02-12-2009, 5:12 AM
The scope of the check will be limited to the 12031 unloaded check and then we will be on our way. I will not stand for any further transgressions or submit to a registration check.

Amen.

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 11:43 AM
CitaDel,

I'm kinda glad the forum eat your first message as I too had to walk away from the key board after reading the latest developments:cool:.

I'm going to try to move heaven and earth to be there. IF I make it (sorry my life doesn't allow for total commitments) I will not be going to a "firehouse" for an "e" check.

If someone does go to the VOLUNTARY location, DO NOT ENTER THE BUILDING, AS THAT IS A GOVERNMENT BUILDING (PC 171b - felony).

What are they going to do issue a green triangle sticker for you to wear to show that you were checked? :p;) (http://www.a-human-right.com/colors4_s.jpg)

I will be unloaded open without any ID (brass pass included). If the authorities choose to detain me in public for a 12031e check I will obey all lawful orders (but they will have to order me and it will be recorded). If I am detained for one second longer then needed to see that my sidearm is unloaded then I will remove the equity from my houses, max out my credit cards and pursue all redress allowed via USC 42- section 1983 over the 4th A. and other issues.

That said I strongly encourage SD PD, who have been our heros over this issue so far (I'll give them 76% of an atta boy award for understanding the laws and publishing their memo :thumbsup:), to abandon any and all "e" checks (likely a 4th A. violation in and of itself) and join us for lunch as fellow Americans united for peace, safety and crime deterrence. Side arms belong unmolested in holsters!

Oh, and train the dispatchers to ask questions like; how is the firearm held? is it in a holster? and to probe any callers for descriptions, if any, of real criminal activity.

Carry On! :thumbsup:

GuyW
02-12-2009, 11:52 AM
If I didn't already say it I will not be cooperating with anything but an "e" check

Well, such cooperation is mandatory. Non-cooperation = grounds for arrest as carrying a loaded gun (read the Penal Code section).

....and only then if I am allowed to SHOW them.

I will not allow them to handle the weapon....

I predict that interaction will not end well. I seriously doubt that they are going to allow you to take the gun out....



I will not allow them to....run the serial or require ID.

You can voice your objection, anything else will not end well...
.

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 11:52 AM
just do not carry identification on your person.

Be very cautious about obeying traffic control signals and other vehicle code pedestrian laws when on foot. No ID can trigger a CVC 40302(a) arrest for identification purposes.

GuyW
02-12-2009, 11:56 AM
If someone does go to the VOLLUNTARY location, DO NOT ENTER THE BUILDING, AS THAT IS A GOVERNMENT BUILDING (PC 171b - felony).

Good point. This aspect hasn't been thoroughly thought through...

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 12:07 PM
Good point. This aspect hasn't been thoroughly thought through...

Just keep it KISS. Meet as planned and if the police want a public display of "e" checks disrupting our lawful 1st Amendment gathering let them do it where ever we lawfully are. Don't change your instructions to the NOOBs as it will greatly confuse and discourage them. KISS!!! Put up the firehouse as a voluntary request for those who want to do that but I personally discourage anyone from going there.

In fact, what I would encourage them to do is send every patrol unit on duty, if lack of priority calls allow, to visit and say hello periodically (and do an "e" check if they demand LOL). After all "public safety" at it's least is a partnership between the paid servant and the law-abiding private citizen and I DO appreciate their interest as it will greatly open up dialogue of self-defense carry issues in SD and CA as a whole.

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 12:38 PM
Good point. This aspect hasn't been thoroughly thought through...


And most firehouses have walls with secure gates around any court yard areas, would a court consider an "improved" secure courtyard area connected to part of a government building a violation of 171b? I don't know. I certainly don't think so and since SDPD is inviting people to go there, I also don't think they would pursue that angle.

They are not out to "get us" IMO as nothing here indicates anything but them wanting smooth sailing. But I'll avoid the issue by avoiding the firehouse.

Also I've seen SO many parade routes in SO many big cites where 626.9 has been violated and nobody cares (no cop is going to take a color guard's or historical reenactor's sidearm on the 4th of July - Oceanside excepted (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=109497)).

But I'd rather just avoid the issue altogether (and I also don't like the underlying implications of being asked to go somewhere for an "e" check).

KISS!!!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Theseus dude,

One arrest at a time.

Everyone else just lock the slide back in the holster with an empty mag well (this works well in a Serpa) and it may then not need to be handled by LEO (as determined by LEO sadly). But do obey all orders. If they give an unlawful order that is on them. Have it on tape, file the required complaint form, and consult an attorney.

Our beef is not with SDPD but with CA laws in general. Keep your eye on the big picture and have a great time and obey all laws!!!

Victory will come but it will be years in the coming.

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 1:26 PM
The scope of the check will be limited to the 12031 unloaded check and then we will be on our way.


from your blog:

6) UPDATED 2-11-09: When you arrive to the meeting area, you are to go to the garage of the lifeguard tower to have your weapon undergo a 12031 unloaded check.

Do not under any circumstances enter any government structure that might fall under 171b PC!


OK I see you've changed it:

6) PLEASE RSVP! Email me, post a comment on this blog, PM me, post on the Calguns.net thread (listed below), just let me know.

vrand
02-12-2009, 2:05 PM
Oh, and train the dispatchers to ask questions like; how is the firearm held? is it in a holster? and to probe any callers for descriptions, if any, of real criminal activity.

Carry On! :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

N6ATF
02-12-2009, 3:40 PM
from your blog:



Do not under any circumstances enter any government structure that might fall under 171b PC!

Please post this advice on the blog, since everybody in other forums should be linking to there, not this thread.

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 4:10 PM
Please post this advice on the blog, since everybody in other forums should be linking to there, not this thread.


Just talked with PullnSh*t25 :p He will correct soon.:cool2:

pullnshoot25
02-12-2009, 4:29 PM
Just talked with PullnSh*t25 :p He will correct soon.:cool2:

I will post soon.

LOL on the "PullnSh*t25", I think the volgar word analyzer is off its rocker a bit LOL.

Theseus
02-12-2009, 4:36 PM
Well, such cooperation is mandatory. Non-cooperation = grounds for arrest as carrying a loaded gun (read the Penal Code section).


Read the post. I will not cooperate in anything BUT a 12031(e) check.

I did not say I would not comply, I said I would not cooperate.

I have already put tape over the serials and am seriously thinking about aftermarket barrel replacement so that the serial will not be displayed in any way that would allow a check unless they get a warrant.

grammaton76
02-12-2009, 4:40 PM
Guys, bear in mind that there are multiple reasons why (e) checks might actually be desirable for the goals of this outing.

For one thing, the more cops are involved in this, the more of them will have hands-on education that this is in fact a lawful activity.

If all of SDPD wanted to line up and check MY weapon, and do so lawfully, I'd personally stand there all day for all of SDPD to pass by and check, under our friendly LEO's watchful eye. The more these things happen, the more officers are educated.

Don't go standing around and harping about rights for simple (e) checks - the goal here is not to antagonize, but to educate both the normal citizens and the LEOs. And person for person, educated LEOs matter more than educated normal citizens in the amount of benefit they can provide to our cause.

In the long run, this means less FUD from LEOs and more perception of (e) checks as being kind of a waste of time.

vrand
02-12-2009, 4:42 PM
Read the post. I will not cooperate in anything BUT a 12031(e) check.

I did not say I would not comply, I said I would not cooperate.

I have already put tape over the serials and am seriously thinking about aftermarket barrel replacement so that the serial will not be displayed in any way that would allow a check unless they get a warrant.

:thumbsup:

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 5:20 PM
Guys, bear in mind that there are multiple reasons why (e) checks might actually be desirable for the goals of this outing.

You points are well taken. I was taken aback by the fact that there were NO 12031 "e" checks at the other 2 gatherings and since SD PD knew about the events I viewed it as a rational non-reaction on their part and perhaps even a sign of respect from the SD PD admin. and line officers.

Why create conflict where none need exist? Side arms belong secured in holsters IMO.

Also, an "e" check if desired by any LEO should happen where ever we are. Not at some PD determined location and certainly not in a government building (lifeguard tower garage). After the "check" are they going to recheck to make sure I didn't load in the bathroom later (LOL)?

And once you've reported to the check location voluntarily and voluntarily handed over your side arm you've waived your 4th A. on any other issues IMO.

Yes I believe in the spirit and letter of obeying the laws and fostering respect with the authorities. But that means I will need to be ordered to comply with an "e" check after stating I will comply with but do not voluntarily consent to the order (respectfully;) and on tape) as I will retain what few rights I have left. Respect is a two way street; Respect my rights as currently understood and I'll respect you powers as currently understood. Sounds fair to me.

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 5:25 PM
I can also make an argument that you want your serial number and name run thought CLETS/NICS. It proves by making an electronic record that you were there and that you were armed with that firearm and that you were detained without consent (if you were and have it on tape saying so) over any 1st, 2nd or 4th A. issues should they occur.

It can also have a negative result as the forced search of Theseus for his ID and the running of his serial number also provided evidence used against him in his current false LA school zone charges.

Cypren
02-12-2009, 5:29 PM
Don't go standing around and harping about rights for simple (e) checks - the goal here is not to antagonize, but to educate both the normal citizens and the LEOs. And person for person, educated LEOs matter more than educated normal citizens in the amount of benefit they can provide to our cause.

I completely agree. I understand why people are frustrated over a perceived invasion of their privacy, but please keep perspective on this issue: the San Diego Police Department is willing to coordinate with us and is attempting to come to an amicable solution that is as convenient for us as possible while also meeting their duty to the public safety (in the form of making 12031(e) checks, which they really need to do in order to avoid trouble with their political bosses). Why poison a good relationship by refusing to let them run a check that you know isn't going to turn up anything, and which helps them out by giving them political cover?

I'm all for standing up for rights on principle against a hostile law enforcement agency. But when law enforcement is going out of its way to educate their people, make our lives as smooth as possible and let us make a statement to the public -- who are our real audience here, not the cops, remember -- why make their lives deliberately more difficult? They aren't demanding that we line up for inspection, they're requesting that we do it voluntarily to make it easier on their officers and to reduce any confusion. I don't see this as an issue of submitting to an oppressive government -- I see it as doing a neighborly favor for some individuals in the police department who are treating us well and trying to do their jobs at the same time.

On the legal issue, by the way, my understanding it is within the scope of the law that a police officer who detains a person carrying a deadly weapon for any reason (and this includes a 12031(e) check, which is a brief detention) is legally authorized to request identification to determine if that person falls into a prohibited persons category. (I do not have a case citation for this, so if someone with current access to Lexis would like to correct me or provide a citation, I would appreciate it.) Taking steps to hide the serial numbers on your weapon is legally valid. They cannot attempt to find the serial number without probable cause, but they can use them if they are openly available during the inspection.

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 5:41 PM
legally authorized to request identification to determine if that person falls into a prohibited persons category.

If you're talking about a demand for ID, I think it is: Hibel vs 6th Judicial District (2004); Hibel was actually suspected of a crime and detained for a criminal investigation ( I maybe confusing this with Az vs Hicks). I'll reread them later. It's one of those two.

California has no general stop and ID enforcement statute outside of the CVC-40302a (arrest for ID purposes) when a vehicle code has actually been violated.

Otherwise good points and it is a point of view each individual should consider. There are advantages to being ordered vs voluntary consent and visa versa.

However, as a LEO, I can see no good coming from submitting to any searches voluntarily beyond that required explicitly in 12031(e) - not your name and not the serial number. If someone has a small traffic warrant they did not know about (and the courts/DMV do make mistakes on occasion) I don't want someone being arrested at the gathering for other BS that has nothing to do with the event and their otherwise lawful carry. Even if they were a prohibited person and didn't know about it. I don't want any arrests at UOC events period.

Saying no respectfully to non mandatory non required searches saves us that headache and sets some ground rules for these encounters if they must happen. Get it on tape then obey all orders. Like I said if they give an unlawful order it is on them. Deal with it later IF the individual wants/needs to.

LOW2000
02-12-2009, 6:57 PM
As someone new to OC, the idea of getting the "blessing" of the PD by letting them check me up front takes a huge part of the fear of the event away.

I don't want to have to blow 5k on my defense, so if doing that guarantees that I don't have problems with law enforcement, then I would allow that in order to be seen later by the general public open carrying.

I understand the principle of the matter, however if allowing them to check me for this event (assuming its not a trap to arrest me for entering a .gov building with a firearm), then I would do it.

If I can get something from the dept. requesting (not requiring) those of us attending to visit that location for a 12031e check so that entrapment could be proved if they did start arresting for it, then I will carry to the event.

If I can't get some sort of guarantee of no trouble from the police, then i'll attend, but won't carry. (And yes, I understand that means they "win" but again, I have a lot to lose, financially and otherwise)

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 7:40 PM
As someone new to OC, the idea of getting the "blessing" of the PD by letting them check me up front...

You have to let them check your firearm where ever 12031 PC applies if a check is demanded. Anything else you choose to co-operate with is fine if you are fine with it.

This "event" is really the legally safest thing you can do, UOC wise, and I don't see SD PD as acting in a hostile way what so ever. When they asked through one of the event organizers (Gir) to come to the firehouse it was not anything other then having an efficient way of appearing to "do their due diligence" and checking firearms as is allowed by law.

The discussion from that point on has been points of law and OC philosophy. Do what makes you feel comfortable.;) I guarantee you will enjoy OC (even if it is just U. with separate mags).

This is not an adversarial event in any way. However, I post my views so others may agree/disagree and so that there will be no surprises on the day. I doubt the PD considered 171b when they decided on the "firehouse" garage location (they are newer to this then we are). Heck there might even be a discharge barrel there, for all I know, which would be a safe place to point the firearm after it has been unholstered for the "e" check.

That aside 12031 "e" checks are an unnecessary handling of a firearm and not required to be done by the police. But it is their choice. I think they are choosing unwisely, however there may be political pressures I'm not aware of. Even still I'm a little disappointed, please excuse me for that opinion.

If someone doesn't wish to have their name or serial number run through CLETS/NCIS, I believe that it is their Right to refuse since they are not being detained for suspicion of a crime as required for a normal 4th A. exempt detention and forced wants/warrants search (IANAL).


If I can't get some sort of guarantee of no trouble from the police...

There is no such thing and since it doesn't exist they can't give it. You will obey the law and the police will too. There are safe guards which UOCers follow and that includes following the law, having a recording device, and friendly witnesses. That is what we are all about. Come on out and have fun.

If you are NEW NEW, spend some time researching the info at californiaopencarry.org if you haven't. And attending unarmed is fine too. This is a family event!

gir007
02-12-2009, 8:22 PM
liberty1, the firehouse was the meeting part that pullnshoot set up i toild the deputy that we were meeting there and that they decided to have us go inside the lifeguards are city employees in a city building its not a FED BUILDING i will still be calling tutitich mecheal yes spelled wrong haha.>>>. i have to call him to tell him what i have decided,

2. san diego pd was there with 4 uniform and some not and 2 detectives at our first but then did not show up on our last 2 that is basicly what this will be since new higher poluated area, and high outcome of people comming they wana do same thing and we should then be allowed freely to be on out own yet again from now on, they are still gettiung used to mass groups being around too bear in mind, yet they are being educated as well. these cops that are coming are totally cool pople and are very nice. I hope that you guys can at least put up with a little abuse and be nice and even shake their hands for what they have done. just dont get too fussy with them because if we start seeming like jerks they will have a way worse outlook on us.

So everyone just be cool ok yes well have our weapons checked and that takes 2 sec pull out pull slide put back in holster not a big deal but they will do a random background not gun serial search on random he things it will be like 1 per 8-10 ppl which if 40 comes 4 or 5 ppl will get their background hell if it mnakes you guys feel better me and my bro will vulenteer to be the first couple. anyways just keep your cool guys.

the detective says even record the whole thing on tape and we can get a statement from her too.

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 8:46 PM
If someone wants to volunteer for a "background check" what ever that is feel free.

If it's a wants/warrants check then that will not tell if someone is a prohibited person unless they are currently on probation or parole or have a restraining order against them. They will then need to pull your "raps" to see any arrest record and then look up any convictions to determine if they are prohibiting violations (if any). Or are they going to do a DOJ/FBI background check and get back to you within ten days and tell you it was OK/Not OK to UOC last week?

There is NO reason of any wants/warrants/"background" checks. Comply with the 12031e as required but I see no reason for anything else unless you are lawfully detained for suspicion of a crime.

If 40 people show up 4-5 will be checked? Uh??? What is that. Is it a request or demand?

There is NO permission needed to lawfully openly carry an unloaded firearm. The fact that they even agreed to have you enter a local government building for a check tells me they don't know what they are doing and haven't thought it through.

My recommendation is to carry on as if they weren't there. If they want an "e" check then they can get it where ever you are.

Don't get me wrong I like the dialogue you're having with them. The kinks just need to get ironed out so as to not have any misunderstandings with 30+ strong individualists attending. And they do need to understand that any checks beyond "e" are voluntary - its best for their liability for that to be the standard.

My 0.02 cents - not worth much. OK now lets lighten the mood: Chicken or Steak and which eating establishment is going to get overrun by a party of 30+ middle aged midlife crisis fat balding armed guys? (ok I'll only speak for myself:D)

Decoligny
02-12-2009, 8:55 PM
liberty1, the firehouse was the meeting part that pullnshoot set up i toild the deputy that we were meeting there and that they decided to have us go inside the lifeguards are city employees in a city building its not a FED BUILDING

171b does not stipulate FED BUILDING.

171b. (a) Any person who brings or possesses within any state or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 54950) of Part
1 of Division 2 of Title 5 of, or Article 9 (commencing with Section 11120) of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of, the Government Code, any of the following is guilty of a public offense punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year, or in the state prison:
(1) Any firearm.

I have no problem with them checking my weapon to ensure it is unloaded. I will NOT however, enter a "state or local public building" in violation of 171b, just to be "polite", and to shield the general public from the disturbing sight of open carry proponents having their weapons checked by the police in public.

If anyone wants to volunteer for a background check let them go right ahead. They can background check me when they suspect that I have committed a crime.

N6ATF
02-12-2009, 8:59 PM
Don't go standing around and harping about rights for simple (e) checks - the goal here is not to antagonize, but to educate both the normal citizens and the LEOs. And person for person, educated LEOs matter more than educated normal citizens in the amount of benefit they can provide to our cause.

In this case, I believe education of police and non-police alike on PC 171(b) (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/171b.html) needs to have equal weight, as demonstrated by our feet not setting foot inside. Whether or not entrapment is intended, the fact that it would be possible with their invitation and our accepting of it, is there.

Entrapment is the act of a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offence which the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.

In this case we would otherwise have been unlikely to commit PC 171(b) if it were not for the invitation to do precisely that, without specifying it as a crime.

The only compromise I can see is if one of us brings an EZ-UP canopy or something similar that can screen the e checking on grounds that are perfectly legal to do so, and practical to be. Where that would be set up is the $10,000 question.

P.S. There is an exception to PC 171(b) - but every one of us would have to individually get it, IN WRITING. NOT as a group, and NOT verbally.


(b) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
...
(4) A person who has permission to possess that weapon granted in
writing by a duly authorized official who is in charge of the
security of the state or local government building.

grammaton76
02-12-2009, 9:23 PM
In this case, I believe education of police and non-police alike on PC 171(b) (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/171b.html) needs to have equal weight, as demonstrated by our feet not setting foot inside. Whether or not entrapment is intended, the fact that it would be possible with their invitation and our accepting of it, is there.

Sure - I have no issue with that... we do not let them get us to violate the law, period. Hopefully this was not something my post implied.

My issue is explicitly against the "no one should infringe my rights, I don't intend to show up for the requested checks!" mentality some folks seem to be leaning towards.

The only compromise I can see is if one of us brings an EZ-UP canopy or something similar that can screen the e checking on grounds that are perfectly legal to do so, and practical to be. Where that would be set up is the $10,000 question.

This sounds reasonable, although I believe I would simply tell 'em "No, we're not going inside the building - we'll line up outside of it for ya but that's it."

P.S. There is an exception to PC 171(b) - but every one of us would have to individually get it, IN WRITING. NOT as a group, and NOT verbally.

Interesting concept. I wonder if they could write something for us that says we can open carry in any city location we want... if they'd do that on a shall-issue basis, I would have no issue going into their lifeguard building per their request. Baby steps in the shall-issue CCW direction, sort of...

Decoligny
02-12-2009, 9:34 PM
Interesting concept. I wonder if they could write something for us that says we can open carry in any city location we want... if they'd do that on a shall-issue basis, I would have no issue going into their lifeguard building per their request. Baby steps in the shall-issue CCW direction, sort of...

"duly authorized official who is in charge of the security of the state or local government building."

Unless they are the duly authorized official who is in charge of the security of the state of local government building, then no they couldn't. And I am not sure any particular police officer is in charge of the security or every single city location.

grammaton76
02-12-2009, 9:48 PM
"duly authorized official who is in charge of the security of the state or local government building."

Unless they are the duly authorized official who is in charge of the security of the state of local government building, then no they couldn't. And I am not sure any particular police officer is in charge of the security or every single city location.

If they happen to have anyone who's technically in charge of security for the local county government buildings in the county (or city buildings within city limits), that person may perhaps be able to sign off for a class of buildings? Just tossing out some ideas here.

LOW2000
02-12-2009, 10:28 PM
There is no such thing and since it doesn't exist they can't give it. You will obey the law and the police will too. There are safe guards which UOCers follow and that includes following the law, having a recording device, and friendly witnesses. That is what we are all about. Come on out and have fun.

If you are NEW NEW, spend some time researching the info at californiaopencarry.org if you haven't. And attending unarmed is fine too. This is a family event!

The guarantee I was referring to was referenced above, they can in writing grant permission to be in a city building, which would keep me from becoming a felon.

pullnshoot25
02-12-2009, 10:56 PM
I am writing the following post so I can reference it via hyperlink from my blog.

To paraphrase what Liberty1 said:

1) Unless you want to have a background inspection done on you, DO NOT VOLUNTEER YOUR FIREARM FOR THE 12031 INSPECTION! Volunteering your firearm waives all 4th amendment rights and then you will be subject to further "detainment." The only time we allow a 12031 inspection is when it is demanded by the police officer, as in a verbal order. In other words, DO NOT VOLUNTEER YOUR FIREARM! They have the power, not the obligation, to conduct a 12031 check and if they demand it that is when we comply.

2) While the police officers are trying to be nice in allowing us to utilize the lifeguard tower as an inspection site, this is an iffy 171 violation and as such we will not enter into this area unless we have actual written permission. As such, no one shall enter the lifeguard tower but shall gather in the original area. In short, DO NOT ENTER THE LIFEGUARD TOWER!

3) All those that are wary of a background check are advised to place tape over their serial numbers to prevent prying eyes. The 12031 check does not include the right to conduct a background check and if it is requested and you do not want to comply, you are to deny the request and demand that your firearm be returned to you immediately. Of course, this will all be
recorded so I am sure that there will be little fanfare on this subject.

4) I am going to be in the area an hour early (8:30) to ensure that everything goes smoothly (prepping people, making sure that all is kosher, no going into the tower, etc.) so if anyone wants to come early, look for the toe-head packing the .44 MAGNUM!

Again, we are not out to get these guys and I am sure that they are not out to get us either, as they have been very cool with us and I am sure that some of the stuff they are proposing is based on pressure from those higher up the chain. Unfortunately, the point of this outing is to not gain brownie points with the LEOs but to exercise our rights. If we spend all of our time making sure that we are cool with the police instead of exercising our rights then we will get nothing done. Also, this is OUR outing and police planning should be kept to a minimum, no offense to our favorite detective and friends.

I hope this clears up a few things. Liberty1, if I missed anything please let me know so that I might better guide people in the right direction.

hoffmang
02-12-2009, 11:29 PM
State has preemption for firearm laws.

The State has no preemption for firearms carry laws.

Does everyone attending this have $5000.00 set aside for bail and $5000.00 set aside for retainer to counsel?

Using a Public Defender is not an option as you may end up creating bad case law for the future of UOC.

-Gene

The Nomadd
02-12-2009, 11:33 PM
Me and my girlfriend will be attending. I told her about it, and she stated she wanted to go. I know we both had fun at the one we attended at El Indio a while back. See ya'll there!

pullnshoot25
02-13-2009, 9:47 AM
The State has no preemption for firearms carry laws.

Does everyone attending this have $5000.00 set aside for bail and $5000.00 set aside for retainer to counsel?

Using a Public Defender is not an option as you may end up creating bad case law for the future of UOC.

-Gene

Freaking criminey....

http://www.opencarry.org/ca.html

Well, SD hasn't made any ordinances that I know of... fuuudge.

GuyW
02-13-2009, 12:43 PM
I did not say I would not comply, I said I would not cooperate.


You seem to speak a weird form of English with which I am not familiar.

Essentially, cooperate = comply.
.

GuyW
02-13-2009, 12:47 PM
Say, guys:

I hope no one has to use the restroom while you're there....the public ones are arguably a local government building.....

171b does not stipulate FED BUILDING.

171b. (a) Any person who brings or possesses within any state or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 54950) of Part
1 of Division 2 of Title 5 of, or Article 9 (commencing with Section 11120) of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of, the Government Code, any of the following is guilty of a public offense punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year, or in the state prison:
(1) Any firearm.

pullnshoot25
02-13-2009, 12:49 PM
Chris is having a chat with the Captain attending our outing today about some of the minute details, such as carrying ID, background checks, taping serial numbers, etc. as she is apparently not a fan of us not carrying our ID, resisting background checks and taping over our serial numbers. I told him that if he has any problems with the Captain that he is clear to hand out my cell phone number to the Captain so I can engage her in conversation on this matter.

The detective was unaware of the 171 problem and has made the necessary changes to the plan.

That's all the updates I have for right now. I will keep you guys posted as this unfolds.

grammaton76
02-13-2009, 1:08 PM
Tell them they can check me 24 hours straight if they want, as long as they give me a CCW when it's over with. ;)

pullnshoot25
02-13-2009, 1:18 PM
You seem to speak a weird form of English with which I am not familiar.

Essentially, cooperate = comply.
.

Meaning he won't offer his firearm up to be checked, he will comply if it is demanded of him, as the 12031 unloaded check should be.

Decoligny
02-13-2009, 1:27 PM
You seem to speak a weird form of English with which I am not familiar.

Essentially, cooperate = comply.
.

com·ply (kəm-plī') Pronunciation Key
intr.v. com·plied, com·ply·ing, com·plies
1. To act in accordance with another's command, request, rule, or wish: The patient complied with the physician's orders.
2. Obsolete To be courteous or obedient.


co·op·er·ate (kō-ŏp'ə-rāt') Pronunciation Key
intr.v. co·op·er·at·ed, co·op·er·at·ing, co·op·er·ates
1. To work or act together toward a common end or purpose.
2. To acquiesce willingly; be compliant: asked the child to cooperate and go to bed.
3. To form an association for common, usually economic, benefit: When buyers cooperate, they can make large wholesale purchases at a discount.

If you cooperate you are by definition complying.

If you are complying you are NOT necessarily cooperating.

The two are related words, but they do not hold the same meaning.

The English language is a complex language with different words having different levels of meaning to them.

vrand
02-13-2009, 1:33 PM
Tell them they can check me 24 hours straight if they want, as long as they give me a CCW when it's over with. ;)

:thumbsup:

vrand
02-13-2009, 1:37 PM
The English language is a complex language with different words having different levels of meaning to them.

yep

And in Gov. Codes, the front Definitions section has even another non-stardard words meanings.

pullnshoot25
02-13-2009, 1:40 PM
com·ply (kəm-plī') Pronunciation Key
intr.v. com·plied, com·ply·ing, com·plies
1. To act in accordance with another's command, request, rule, or wish: The patient complied with the physician's orders.
2. Obsolete To be courteous or obedient.


co·op·er·ate (kō-ŏp'ə-rāt') Pronunciation Key
intr.v. co·op·er·at·ed, co·op·er·at·ing, co·op·er·ates
1. To work or act together toward a common end or purpose.
2. To acquiesce willingly; be compliant: asked the child to cooperate and go to bed.
3. To form an association for common, usually economic, benefit: When buyers cooperate, they can make large wholesale purchases at a discount.

If you cooperate you are by definition complying.

If you are complying you are NOT necessarily cooperating.

The two are related words, but they do not hold the same meaning.

The English language is a complex language with different words having different levels of meaning to them.

Thank you, Sir Decoligny!

I love the English Language!

ENTHUSIAST
02-13-2009, 3:32 PM
Say, guys:

I hope no one has to use the restroom while you're there....the public ones are arguably a local government building.....

Have you ever even been to PB?!?

Hint: The locals leave the public restrooms for the tourists and use he nice clean ones inside a nice business...they are much cleaner than the public restrooms!!! :thumbsup:

Chris is having a chat with the Captain attending our outing today about some of the minute details, such as carrying ID, background checks, taping serial numbers, etc. as she is apparently not a fan of us not carrying our ID, resisting background checks and taping over our serial numbers.

Well I am not a big fan of acquiescence to unlawful requests by paid public servants and setting aside my Constitutional freedoms to put ANYONE at ease especially since this is the SECOND request for unnecessary UNLAWFUL actions on the part of FREE Americans.

jnojr
02-13-2009, 3:33 PM
Guys, bear in mind that there are multiple reasons why (e) checks might actually be desirable for the goals of this outing.

For one thing, the more cops are involved in this, the more of them will have hands-on education that this is in fact a lawful activity.

If all of SDPD wanted to line up and check MY weapon, and do so lawfully, I'd personally stand there all day for all of SDPD to pass by and check, under our friendly LEO's watchful eye. The more these things happen, the more officers are educated.

Don't go standing around and harping about rights for simple (e) checks - the goal here is not to antagonize, but to educate both the normal citizens and the LEOs. And person for person, educated LEOs matter more than educated normal citizens in the amount of benefit they can provide to our cause.

In the long run, this means less FUD from LEOs and more perception of (e) checks as being kind of a waste of time.

I wanted to repeat all of this.

Look at it this way... if OC events are confrontational and negative for the police, believe me, they can make things mighty uncomfortable for us. Yea, I know, "rights", "the law", "they can't do that"... don't forget that, while it's all being argued out, you'll be in a jail cell or on bail, and they'll be collecting overtime. And there is zero chance that some judge is going to officially sanction a cop for "doing his job".

On the other hand, friendly, positive contacts will work the other way. An SDPD officer who's been involved with OC events, spoken with participants, and left with a good vibe is someone more likely to do good in the future... someone who's in some minor, technical violation maybe gets a warning and information instead of a pair of cuffs and a record.

This is, IMO, not the time to climb up on Martyr Mountain. If I can attend, I intend to be as accomodating as possible with every police officer there. If they want to run my serial number, fine... it isn't like the state doesn't already have that info. This isn't some random encounter where interaction with the police is a violation of my rights... I am voluntarily entering a situation where the police are there.

After UOC becomes known and commonplace and not a "threatening" situation is when it starts to be a good idea to make stands on other hills. But if this event became antagonistic, it would be time for me to leave.

pullnshoot25
02-13-2009, 4:31 PM
Have you ever even been to PB?!?

Hint: The locals leave the public restrooms for the tourists and use he nice clean ones inside a nice business...they are much cleaner than the public restrooms!!! :thumbsup:



Well I am not a big fan of acquiescence to unlawful requests by paid public servants and setting aside my Constitutional freedoms to put ANYONE at ease especially since this is the SECOND request for unnecessary UNLAWFUL actions on the part of FREE Americans.

True that Enthusiast, I am making sure that she knows that too.

GuyW
02-13-2009, 4:34 PM
Have you ever even been to PB?!?



Grew up in PB...graduated from Kate Sessions Elem, PB Jr Hi, and Mission Bay HS...

pullnshoot25
02-13-2009, 4:45 PM
I wanted to repeat all of this.

Look at it this way... if OC events are confrontational and negative for the police, believe me, they can make things mighty uncomfortable for us. Yea, I know, "rights", "the law", "they can't do that"... don't forget that, while it's all being argued out, you'll be in a jail cell or on bail, and they'll be collecting overtime. And there is zero chance that some judge is going to officially sanction a cop for "doing his job".

On the other hand, friendly, positive contacts will work the other way. An SDPD officer who's been involved with OC events, spoken with participants, and left with a good vibe is someone more likely to do good in the future... someone who's in some minor, technical violation maybe gets a warning and information instead of a pair of cuffs and a record.

This is, IMO, not the time to climb up on Martyr Mountain. If I can attend, I intend to be as accomodating as possible with every police officer there. If they want to run my serial number, fine... it isn't like the state doesn't already have that info. This isn't some random encounter where interaction with the police is a violation of my rights... I am voluntarily entering a situation where the police are there.

After UOC becomes known and commonplace and not a "threatening" situation is when it starts to be a good idea to make stands on other hills. But if this event became antagonistic, it would be time for me to leave.

We are not out there to really be martyrs, we are out there to exercise our rights. As it stands now, the police want to overstep their legal bounds and do random detainments for crimes not committed. It is not illegal to UOC and the scope of their function is to check if the firearm is unloaded and let us go about our legal business. Unless they can articulate a reason for conducting a firearm check and background check on a citizen, they cannot do it. An articulable reason would be that the gun was loaded, gun was concealed, etc, meaning that 1) the law was broken and 2) a terry stop could be conducted.

Everyone attending that does not want to be a sacrifice to the legal system will do the following...

1) Tape over the serial number of your firearm.
2) Leave your driver's license in your car.
3) Make the police ORDER/DEMAND a 12031 unloaded check, DO NOT VOLUNTEER!
4) If they ask to run a background check, politely state no and demand (DONT ASK!) for your property to be returned.
5) DO NOT give a phone number, email address, NOTHING to the police.
6) If asked for identification, ask if you are being detained for a crime. If you are not, politely state that California law has no provision for "Contact-to-ID"
on the books and that you do not submit to presenting your ID.

Following these steps (input requested from Decoligny, Liberty1 and the like if anything is missing) should make everything go over smoothly. Remember, this isn't about pissing off the cops OR making sure that they are cool with us. We are exercising our rights within all the legal confines and in a public place and therefore we should not be subjected to anything beyond what the scope of the law states. You are FREE MEN, make sure you ACT LIKE FREE MEN!

Make sure you have your voice recorder to ensure that you have proof of rights violations in the case that your rights are violated.

CitaDeL
02-13-2009, 6:27 PM
(S)he is apparently not a fan of us not carrying our ID, resisting background checks and taping over our serial numbers.

I am not a fan of presumption of guilt. I dont believe any of these participants should be treated any differently than any other person who elects not to be armed under the same circumstances. Would it be reasonable to stop someone carrying a mobile phone to inspect it, to see what numbers it has dialed, or what numbers you have programmed on it? No- it's nobody's business but the owners. Likewise, those lawfully carrying firearms for self-defense should not be subjected to greater scrutiny than anyone carrying a mobile phone, a bag lunch, or a backpack full of books.

There seems to be a misunderstanding about who exactly is making the demonstration of natural rights an advesarial confrontation. Open carriers are committing no crime- but are being put into a position of being seized, searched, and investigated for this demonstration of natural rights. Further, they are being asked to volunteer for this invasion to put the minds of law enforcement at ease. While it is politically expedient to placate the authorities by complying with their wishes to be supplied with photo identification, the inspection of weapons, and the opportunity to snoop into our background, it is without justification when there is no crime commited.

If the police want my photo ID and want to investigate me, they must articulate reasonable suspicion of a crime commited or about to be commited that they believe I am a party to. To come after me without this cause is advesarial and provacative- it is an attack on my fundemental liberties. I dont think we should be any less zealous about preserving our freedom if we involve the authorities in our lawful demonstration.


The detective was unaware of the 171 problem and has made the necessary changes to the plan.

Wow. You mean to say ordinary people had to educate the authorities about the law? I'm glad we have contributed to their knowledge. (Though I didnt catch it myself on the first read through...):p

ENTHUSIAST
02-13-2009, 7:48 PM
Grew up in PB...graduated from Kate Sessions Elem, PB Jr Hi, and Mission Bay HS...

Cool, native born SD local here as well! :rockon:




On the other hand, friendly, positive contacts will work the other way. An SDPD officer who's been involved with OC events, spoken with participants, and left with a good vibe is someone more likely to do good in the future... someone who's in some minor, technical violation maybe gets a warning and information instead of a pair of cuffs and a record.

I am a VERY easy going guy and I intend to bring my manners and be polite and courteous "Yes Sir/Maam, No Sir/Maam".

But the whole purpose of exercising our Rights will ONLY be made empty and superficial if giving a "good vibe" to those who seek to restrict our activities takes precedence to even the slightest degree beyond what is defined by the scope of the law as it is written.

This is, IMO, not the time to climb up on Martyr Mountain. If I can attend, I intend to be as accomodating as possible with every police officer there. If they want to run my serial number, fine... it isn't like the state doesn't already have that info. This isn't some random encounter where interaction with the police is a violation of my rights... I am voluntarily entering a situation where the police are there.

I am not looking to become a "martyer" or have anything other than a GREAT time with like minded people who feel strongly and care enough about their RKBA to attend this event. I think you are falling into the type of mentality that has gotten us San Diegans and Californians where we are today. Intead of a accomodating to the point of total submission... and dismissing yourself entirely... why not rather merely politely yet ASSERTIVELY stand where GREAT men/women have stood before... FIRMLY ON THEIR RIGHTS!


After UOC becomes known and commonplace and not a "threatening" situation is when it starts to be a good idea to make stands on other hills. But if this event became antagonistic, it would be time for me to leave.

Glad to know who has got by back if the paddy wagon comes... :detective: :thumbsup:

Shall we see what History has to say about your position...

"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
-Mark Twain

GuyW
02-13-2009, 8:41 PM
"Originally Posted by jnojr
After UOC becomes known and commonplace and not a "threatening" situation is when it starts to be a good idea to make stands on other hills. But if this event became antagonistic, it would be time for me to leave."

Glad to know who has got my back if the paddy wagon comes... :detective: :thumbsup:

Shall we see what History has to say about your position...

He has an important reason to avoid controversial interaction with LE...
.

ENTHUSIAST
02-13-2009, 8:50 PM
He has an important reason to avoid controversial interaction with LE...
.

THANKS for the Clarity.

7x57
02-13-2009, 9:06 PM
I'm just going to say right off that I'm not in San Diego and I'm not even an OC'er, so I wasn't going to butt in at all on this thread. It's too easy to say stuff if you don't have any skin in the game. But I'm watching all this "cooperate with the friendly cop" vs. "don't compromise a principle" discussion, and it makes me wonder what I'd do. So I'm going to say what I might do, at least.

I wonder if your somewhat-friendly-captain could be persuaded to agree to go talk to the OCers for a while after they've done whatever is going to happen. If so, that is probably the more teachable moment. It might be more effective to find a way to gently say "the background check/whatever that you did--I consented this time to put you at ease, and because you seemed to be trying to work with us. But according to the law I didn't have to give consent, and you didn't have the right to insist without some probable cause which I didn't give you. I won't give consent next time, because that's the whole point of doing this. I just thought you'd be more comfortable and listen better to where we're going and why if I showed you beforehand that I don't have anything to hide. The next guy you meet probably will insist on his rights, and he probably won't have anything more to hide than I do. After all, if he did he'd have to be the stupidest man in the world to walk around with a cop magnet on his hip."

Because, in fact, you *would* be a really over-achieving idiot to open carry if you have reason to avoid official notice.

7x57

Decoligny
02-13-2009, 9:27 PM
I'm just going to say right off that I'm not in San Diego and I'm not even an OC'er, so I wasn't going to butt in at all on this thread. It's too easy to say stuff if you don't have any skin in the game. But I'm watching all this "cooperate with the friendly cop" vs. "don't compromise a principle" discussion, and it makes me wonder what I'd do. So I'm going to say what I might do, at least.

I wonder if your somewhat-friendly-captain could be persuaded to agree to go talk to the OCers for a while after they've done whatever is going to happen. If so, that is probably the more teachable moment. It might be more effective to find a way to gently say "the background check/whatever that you did--I consented this time to put you at ease, and because you seemed to be trying to work with us. But according to the law I didn't have to give consent, and you didn't have the right to insist without some probable cause which I didn't give you. I won't give consent next time, because that's the whole point of doing this. I just thought you'd be more comfortable and listen better to where we're going and why if I showed you beforehand that I don't have anything to hide. The next guy you meet probably will insist on his rights, and he probably won't have anything more to hide than I do. After all, if he did he'd have to be the stupidest man in the world to walk around with a cop magnet on his hip."

Because, in fact, you *would* be a really over-achieving idiot to open carry if you have reason to avoid official notice.

7x57

I think that 35+ people with a camera crew, many digital voice recorders and many friendly witnesses, just standing our legal ground and refusing to submit to ANY illegal search and siezure is probably a pretty good educational opportunity for the Police.

We will be respectful, we will be polite, but we will not be sheeple.

Allowing our rights to be ignored/trampled even once is unacceptable. We must stand together and let them know that we willingly agree to fully abide by the law, and NOTHING more than fully abide by the law.

Liberty1
02-13-2009, 9:46 PM
I am writing the following post so I can reference it via hyperlink from my blog.

To paraphrase what Liberty1 said:

1) Unless you want to have a background inspection done on you, DO NOT VOLUNTEER YOUR FIREARM FOR THE 12031 INSPECTION! Volunteering your firearm waives all 4th amendment rights and then you will be subject to further "detainment." The only time we allow a 12031 inspection is when it is demanded by the police officer, as in a verbal order. In other words, DO NOT VOLUNTEER YOUR FIREARM! They have the power, not the obligation, to conduct a 12031 check and if they demand it that is when we comply.

2) While the police officers are trying to be nice in allowing us to utilize the lifeguard tower as an inspection site, this is an iffy 171 violation and as such we will not enter into this area unless we have actual written permission. As such, no one shall enter the lifeguard tower but shall gather in the original area. In short, DO NOT ENTER THE LIFEGUARD TOWER!

3) All those that are wary of a background check are advised to place tape over their serial numbers to prevent prying eyes. The 12031 check does not include the right to conduct a background check and if it is requested and you do not want to comply, you are to deny the request and demand that your firearm be returned to you immediately. Of course, this will all be
recorded so I am sure that there will be little fanfare on this subject.

4) I am going to be in the area an hour early (8:30) to ensure that everything goes smoothly (prepping people, making sure that all is kosher, no going into the tower, etc.) so if anyone wants to come early, look for the toe-head packing the .44 MAGNUM!

Again, we are not out to get these guys and I am sure that they are not out to get us either, as they have been very cool with us and I am sure that some of the stuff they are proposing is based on pressure from those higher up the chain. Unfortunately, the point of this outing is to not gain brownie points with the LEOs but to exercise our rights. If we spend all of our time making sure that we are cool with the police instead of exercising our rights then we will get nothing done. Also, this is OUR outing and police planning should be kept to a minimum, no offense to our favorite detective and friends.

I hope this clears up a few things. Liberty1, if I missed anything please let me know so that I might better guide people in the right direction.


This is not my event. Everyone should do what they are comfortable with. What I describe is perhaps an ideal situation under current laws. But just to be clear I recommend obeying ALL orders even if one thinks it's not a lawful order.

For example - and with my tape recorder or video camera running:

Officer: I need to see your ID.

Me: I do not concent to any ID checks. Am I being detained for a criminal investigation?

Officer: No, I just need to see that you're not a felon.

Me: Ok, I don't consent to the ID check but I will obey all orders. Are you ordering me to hand over my ID?

Officer: Yes.

Me (I hand over my ID or give my name etc...if I'm not carrying any ID.) Yes sir, my name is.....(If I believe my rights have been violated I can choose to make a complaint, talk at a city counsel meeting, consult with an attorney, or let bygones be bygones)

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES REFUSE TO OBEY ANY ORDER UNLESS ONE WANTS TO RISK A TOUR OF THE SD GRAY BAR HOTEL (which can have it's benefits if one has their ducks in a row but that is another issue for special individuals who have it all planned out with $$$$ to support any such plan)

or

Me: Ok, I don't consent to the ID check but I will obey all orders. Are you ordering me to hand over my ID?

Officer: No. I'm asking for your cooperation. I just want to be comfortable and tell my boss that some people checked out OK

Me: Ok, thank you sir. If I'm not being detained then I'll be on my way, sorry. Thank you for your service Officer. (I offer my hand for a shake and leave or wait for my compatriots to run the gauntlet:D)

or

Me: Yes sir, I'll consent to a check...

ITS YOUR CHOICE

I prefer the bolded bold option.

or with no tape recorder visible:

Officer: GET ON THE GROUND MOFO. DONT MOVE! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE! YOU CAN'T WALK AROUND HERE WITH THAT! YOU GOT A PERMIT? DO YOU THINK YOU'RE A COP? YOU CAME TO THE WRONG TOWN MISTER OPEN CARRY. THINK YOU'RE GONA TEST MY KNOWLEDGE OF THE LAW. I KNOW THE LAW. I AM THE LAW! Hey are you with one of those "this is my right" kinda guys? Is this being recorded? Hey Sarg...Oh S**t......:D

N6ATF
02-14-2009, 12:54 AM
LMFAO

Mulay El Raisuli
02-14-2009, 7:54 AM
Speaking of ID, howsabout we all wear one of those "Hello. My name is..." stickers on our shirts? We could either have just our first name, or as an alternative, we could have our nom de 'net on the thing.

That is, I could have a sticker that says

"Hello: My name is

Mulay"

What think the group?

The Raisuli

jnojr
02-14-2009, 8:10 AM
He has an important reason to avoid controversial interaction with LE...
.

Not any more. I've finally admitted that my creaky knees and over-pronated feet are never going to let me get in to, or pass, any LE Academy :-(

I still do not wish to be the guy that, "Boy, that really sucks that he got arrested for something that isn't a crime! I'm really angry! But... I have bills, and can't actually help his legal defense fund". Further, I just started a job where a Top Secret clearance is required. I've been granted my Interim clearance, and certainly do not look forward to the prospect of my full clearance being denied or revoked because of some silly brush with the law.

I had been under the impression that this event was a friendly, positive interaction with the police, and I wanted to facilitate that. Now, it seems more like the police are involved because they feel they "have to be". I'm the last person on Earth to give up my rights and roll over for The Man, but I was assuming that everyone was getting along and that we had some "good vibes" to maintain, and I was willing to play along to a certain extent to retain good will. If that isn't the case...

We'll see. I do want to be there, but I've had a habit of "double booking" myself :-) This morning, I would up with both an eye doctor appointment and a commitment to a dog rescue event.

CitaDeL
02-14-2009, 10:10 AM
I had been under the impression that this event was a friendly, positive interaction with the police, and I wanted to facilitate that.

This was an opportunity for a friendly, positive interaction with police- just like the first San Diego luncheon. None of the advocates or participants of open carry changed that. If anyone is responsible for changing the tenor of the function, it would be those who assert that someone who is doing something lawful should submit to an event pre-screening "(e) check" and a background investigation.

Do not misconstrue our/my defensive posture as being anti-LEO. The police are welcome to investigate whomever they please, provided they have a real crime before seizing and searching people.

pullnshoot25
02-14-2009, 10:29 AM
I left a message for the Captain about all of this last night and I am sure that she will call me back. I told her that I was a concerned about some of the demands that wll be made on the 28th and that I am also concerned for her department and that I would be more than happy to chat with her about this event. Liberty1 prepped me a bit last night on this with some good questions so I am looking forward to this.

slappomatt
02-14-2009, 10:51 AM
was checking back in on this thread last night and saw the part about coving SN's with tape.

is that legal? I beleive permanantly removing them is a major no-no. But I thought somewhere in this thread I read they can only read the SN if its plainly visible. Also read that the only thing that can conceil the gun is the holster. Tape is not a holster. ??

pullnshoot25
02-14-2009, 11:25 AM
was checking back in on this thread last night and saw the part about coving SN's with tape.

is that legal? I beleive permanantly removing them is a major no-no. But I thought somewhere in this thread I read they can only read the SN if its plainly visible. Also read that the only thing that can conceil the gun is the holster. Tape is not a holster. ??

You can OBSCURE but not OBLITERATE a serial number. It is kind of like revolvers having the serial number under the grip panel.

The Captain is trying to put her finger into our pudding and assert authority that she does not have. Like I said, I will be talking with her and straightening a few things out.

gir007
02-14-2009, 1:40 PM
I still think due to the large outcome and some not being calgunners and not knowing who they are.. that they have the right and legal standing to do their weapon checks and again is better to get it out of the way when we first get there then in the middle of somthing, mind you our original intentions for open carry was to create an image that it can be family oriented and normal people can carry and be safe and if a contact with the police and people seeing us not being arrested puts out a good image of knowing what we are doing is legal and all that. a huge group of people is at a legal standpoint of public safetys concern! and yes they will demand the 12031 check! and pullnshoot sorry btu she is firm and I don't think you will change her mind my last warning is if you want a background check put tape over your serial number and hide your id. if not just don't hide anything.. my only warning for all of you sorry yes we have to suffer 1 outing but if it were a smaller group ect they wouldnt of bugged us but since its large it will happen. I had a nice long chat with the capt and the lt. last night at their command post she is a very nice lady and everything they want out of this is very reasonable and they do support what we are doing. they dont't wana trap us or make us look bad they want to put out that we are legal and to the public that we are making sure they are safe too. because of all this issues you guys have THIS WILL BE THE LAST UOC I WILL EVER DO AS A GROUP WITH CAL GUNS. I think that we have lost sight on some of our goals ect. I will still uoc on my own and maybe with a few othes that want to get together but not as a group anymore, I am done.... I cannot say how long I will be hanging around at this outing either..

Flintlock Tom
02-14-2009, 1:51 PM
if you want a background check put tape over your serial number and hide your id. if not just don't hide anything..

So you're saying that if they see a covered serial number they will definitely run a background check and demand ID?

gir007
02-14-2009, 1:58 PM
yes because it gives them a red flag meanign that you are trying to hide something... which then to them means well maybe your up to no good ect. just dont do anything that can raise suspicion

Theseus
02-14-2009, 1:58 PM
I thank you for trying to organize this and your work.

But I will put it to you this way. Do you remember a short while ago when thousands of supporters of immigrant rights were marching to be heard?

If they had to submit to a screening to find out if they were in fact legal immigrants instead of illegals do you not think that someone would have also screamed "Hell No!" the same way we are?

We are not complaining about the 12031(e) checks as they are (well, not all of us), but the fact that they want us to go and voluntarily surrender our arms for inspection and further increase the chance of a background/wants check.

It is my feeling that, although they may be well intentioned, it is contrary to our desires as participants in the UOC movement. We want to correctly educate LE, not give them the impression that they can step on us and beyond the law. To allow this once is to give them the impression they can do it again. We are here to educate the public as well as the LE and allowing them to show the public that this behavior is acceptable is counter productive.


It will be unfortunate if you won't stay around not only at this meeting, but to not help organize others. I hope you can understand the logic behind my decision to not cooperate with anything but an 12031(e) order conducted on my terms and not theirs.

I still think due to the large outcome and some not being calgunners and not knowing who they are.. that they have the right and legal standing to do their weapon checks and again is better to get it out of the way when we first get there then in the middle of somthing, mind you our original intentions for open carry was to create an image that it can be family oriented and normal people can carry and be safe and if a contact with the police and people seeing us not being arrested puts out a good image of knowing what we are doing is legal and all that. a huge group of people is at a legal standpoint of public safetys concern! and yes they will demand the 12031 check! and pullnshoot sorry btu she is firm and I don't think you will change her mind my last warning is if you want a background check put tape over your serial number and hide your id. if not just don't hide anything.. my only warning for all of you sorry yes we have to suffer 1 outing but if it were a smaller group ect they wouldnt of bugged us but since its large it will happen. I had a nice long chat with the capt and the lt. last night at their command post she is a very nice lady and everything they want out of this is very reasonable and they do support what we are doing. they dont't wana trap us or make us look bad they want to put out that we are legal and to the public that we are making sure they are safe too. because of all this issues you guys have THIS WILL BE THE LAST UOC I WILL EVER DO AS A GROUP WITH CAL GUNS. I think that we have lost sight on some of our goals ect. I will still uoc on my own and maybe with a few othes that want to get together but not as a group anymore, I am done.... I cannot say how long I will be hanging around at this outing either..

Theseus
02-14-2009, 2:00 PM
yes because it gives them a red flag meanign that you are trying to hide something... which then to them means well maybe your up to no good ect. just dont do anything that can raise suspicion

That might be a BAD mistake on their part.

Besides, I will have my ID, I just won't give it to them. And the reason for covering my serials is to prevent damage or the "plain sight" search. If they want to run the serial then they need a warrant which would require more than just "suspicion".

gir007
02-14-2009, 2:02 PM
i completely understand this and i would too not stand up if it were just me and a couple others its due to the large group ect, and they will notdo it all the time think about it they were there for our first outing, they didnt even inspect us, and since then how many have we done without even 1 since encounter thats how it will be yet again its because we are doing this for the first timer as a big group in a highly populated area i hope you understand that also.. and thif they even do a background which from what i got is if you do stuff to hide info is a backjround to make sure your not a felon not the serial on gun..


I thank you for trying to organize this and your work.

But I will put it to you this way. Do you remember a short while ago when thousands of supporters of immigrant rights were marching to be heard?

If they had to submit to a screening to find out if they were in fact legal immigrants instead of illegals do you not think that someone would have also screamed "Hell No!" the same way we are?

We are not complaining about the 12031(e) checks as they are (well, not all of us), but the fact that they want us to go and voluntarily surrender our arms for inspection and further increase the chance of a background/wants check.

It is my feeling that, although they may be well intentioned, it is contrary to our desires as participants in the UOC movement. We want to correctly educate LE, not give them the impression that they can step on us and beyond the law. To allow this once is to give them the impression they can do it again. We are here to educate the public as well as the LE and allowing them to show the public that this behavior is acceptable is counter productive.


It will be unfortunate if you won't stay around not only at this meeting, but to not help organize others. I hope you can understand the logic behind my decision to not cooperate with anything but an 12031(e) order conducted on my terms and not theirs.

N6ATF
02-14-2009, 2:12 PM
As said before, they don't have the authority to do anything but check the weapons are unloaded on a person by person basis. Unless you wear your ID on a neck lanyard, you wouldn't be hiding it. Just not carrying ID, period, as there is no requirement to show ID for non-criminal activities. Nor is there a requirement to have serial numbers in plain sight at all times.

Isn't there at least one off-duty peace officer CGN member attending? If they want to do a mass E check, the officer could vouch for everyone being empty and be the only person to show ID.

The best public relations result would be the group of 30+ all walking past uniformed officers on the boardwalk and NOT exchanging anything more than a polite nod. It is up to the brass to direct their subordinates NOT to violate our Constitutional rights, not us to volunteer to waive our rights on camera and voice recorders.

gir007
02-14-2009, 2:26 PM
well see what pullnshoot gets from her but they are trying to cover their butts too if they get a million calls ect and they cant prove they even did anything they get in trouble too so there has to be a balnce to a small degree. they are just trying to make it easier on both side even tho we lose abit but we get it out of way first thing instead of interupting us in the middle of the day and keeping the cop count to a minimum. and from when i was talking to her in person the only times background cme up was we were talking about hiding serials ect. well see what pullnshoot can talk with her and i guess go from there but do what you guys want i obviously cant speak for you. i will do my thing you guys do yours and so forth. like i said im not going to be there long anyways..

pullnshoot25
02-14-2009, 2:47 PM
Chris, don't throw in the towel yet, you are crucial to these outings and as a good liasion with the SDPD. Without you we wouldn't be having these meetings and you give hope to those with an understandably bleak view of firearm ownership in California.

We are not looking to be confrontational, we only want what is right. As Liberty1 said, NONE OF US ARE GOING TO BE FORCIBLY RESISTING POLICE ORDERS! (capped/bolded for emphasis, not yelling).

That said, anything to do with my firearm will be a mandated order, I will not volunteer my firearm for inspection. There are those less knowledgeable going to this event and will be volunteering/submitting their firearms and I hope that they are not subjected to anything past the (e) check but that is their deal. The police have no right to conduct a warrantless search of my effects and person for not voluntarily providing identification or not voluntarily presenting my firearm's serial number. The point of denying ID and obscuring the firearm serial number is to prevent a warrantless search. Now, the police are saying that because we are following the law and preventing transgressions against our 4th, that is probable cause to violate the 4th Amendment! THAT IS WRONG!

As instructed by Liberty1, I will be complying with all police demands, (not requests) while voicing the fact that I do not consent to having my serial number and ID run in the system but if they are ordering me to I will comply with their order, all the while recording the transgression and providing evidence for a 4th Amendment violation to present at the next City Council Meeting. I don't feel that a lawsuit is appropriate at this time (at least on my part, my brother has one in the works already) but a decent stink and complaint at the City Council level does provide some immediate results.

This is not meant to be an affront to the police nor to incite battle cries, this is to establish respectable boundaries as provided by the law. I am not a criminal, I have done nothing wrong and I do not expect that by following the law to be treated as a criminal. While the police have been relatively cool with us, the attending Captain is in charge of the training for the same police officers that falsely arrested and detained my brother for 2 HOURS for NO REASON and I believe that the source of their misinformation can stem from her teaching guidelines and policies, not to mention the individual officer's painfully evident lack of common sense.

Also, the point of this event is not to garner the approval of the police department, we are there to inform them of their legal constraints, exercise our rights as free men and to inform the public of their rights. It is hard enough being a gun owner in this state, it is even worse to engage in any form of open carry since it is (admittedly) unusual and many scenarios of open carry law are still up in the air, leaving people such as us at the mercy of (potentially) well-meaning yet highly misinformed, (at times) willfully ignorant and seemingly ever-vindictive police officers.

I don't know how many people will be doing what I am doing but it will be compelling at the City Council meeting to have video, audio and written documentation of such blatant transgressions against our 4th amendment rights. The goal on my part is that it will initiate education and change to the SDPD training and procedures.

If we have to tip-toe everywhere for fear of committing a felony or misdemeanor for being a packing gun owner, the police should be just as wary of our rights. Besides, they swore to uphold the Constitution, not bastardize it.

.... last line is good, I will have to use it (maybe modified?) with the Captain. I will post the results of my conversation with her and, if necessary, I will get a hold of Mike Stollenwerk, co-founder of Opencarry.org, to provide some legal expertise in this matter.

CARRY ON!

-N8

N6ATF
02-14-2009, 3:03 PM
well see what pullnshoot gets from her but they are trying to cover their butts too if they get a million calls ect and they cant prove they even did anything they get in trouble too so there has to be a balnce to a small degree. they are just trying to make it easier on both side even tho we lose abit

Except this is making it HARDER on both sides, and we both have a significant amount to lose.

Diverting police resources away from EMERGENCIES (talk about posterior covering, what a scandal it would be if a wandering child was kidnapped because the blue light was turned away to infringe on law-abiding citizens' Constitutional rights!)
Entrapment invitation
Violating Constitutional rights
Inviting lawsuits
Reinforcing BAD TRAINING, POLICIES, and LACK OF COMMON SENSE

Having our firearms seized for no lawful reason
Unlawful arrest, detention
Needing to file lawsuits at great expense

How hard is it for them to say "Having a gun is not a crime. What crime is ACTUALLY being committed, sir/ma'am? None? Now you know having a gun is not a crime. Please do not waste police resources again." (when they receive MWG calls or flagdowns), or the more diplomatic version I've seen repeated dozens of times on here, and every gun forum I've read.

jnojr
02-14-2009, 3:09 PM
Just not carrying ID, period, as there is no requirement to show ID for non-criminal activities.

Wanna bet? (http://epic.org/privacy/hiibel/)

Ask Larry Hiibel about it.

Unconstitutional? I'd say yes. SCOTUS disagrees. And there are a lot more people with guns willing to support their viewpoint than ours.

If an LEO demands ID, you'd better produce it, or be prepared to sit in a cell.

N6ATF
02-14-2009, 3:13 PM
Yep!

In a 5-4 vote, the Supreme Court has narrowly upheld a Nevada law allowing law enforcement to arrest an individual when he refuses to identify himself, and reasonable suspicion--though not probable cause--exists that he has committed a crime.

Bolded for emphasis.

Reasonable suspicion that someone has committed a crime cannot exist if there were absolutely no elements of any crime present to begin with.

In Hiibel, there were. In our case, there cannot, and will not, be.

CitaDeL
02-14-2009, 3:15 PM
The best public relations result would be the group of 30+ all walking past uniformed officers on the boardwalk and NOT exchanging anything more than a polite nod.

Plus One Trillion.

pullnshoot25
02-14-2009, 3:19 PM
Wanna bet? (http://epic.org/privacy/hiibel/)

Ask Larry Hiibel about it.

Unconstitutional? I'd say yes. SCOTUS disagrees. And there are a lot more people with guns willing to support their viewpoint than ours.

If an LEO demands ID, you'd better produce it, or be prepared to sit in a cell.


Nevada, not California.

jnojr
02-14-2009, 3:21 PM
The best public relations result would be the group of 30+ all walking past uniformed officers on the boardwalk and NOT exchanging anything more than a polite nod. It is up to the brass to direct their subordinates NOT to violate our Constitutional rights, not us to volunteer to waive our rights on camera and voice recorders.

This is a pretty idealistic take. Don't get me wrong... I'm not disagreeing with you. But there's the way things ought to be, and there's the way they are. in the real world, if this event became confrontational, people will go to jail. The whole group could be ordered to disperse, and anyone who made a stand on "my rights" could be arrested for a variety of "offenses". And while you're screaming about how illegal it is, or wrong, or unconstitutional, or whatever... you'll still be in a cell trying to raise bail, and the police will be collecting overtime, and at the end of the day, a judge might tell them they were wrong, don't do that again. And "society at large" won't give a crap... the newspaper will tell about how a bunch of gun nuts "created a situation", confronted the police, and were arrested for inciting a riot, disturbing the peace, a miscellany of 'weapons violations", etc. and 99% of people out there will say, "Good, I'm glad those wackos are in jail and not wandering the streets".

I'm down for a peaceful, positive event. I am not down for something that's intended to provoke a negative reaction. Does that make me a coward? Maybe. Societal change doesn't come about because people really, really want it... it happens because someone stands up and risks everything. But there are times in history when a critical mass of people are prepared to follow up on an injustice. The Battles of Concorde and Lexington weren't a few "rebels" wanting to shoot it out with the government... the "shot heard 'round the world" was what it was because a lot of people were angry and right at the edge. Anyone who thinks any significant percentage of our population is angry and at the edge over UOC or CCW is going to wind up with a bitter surprise. You'll go to prison and lose your rights, and nobody will care.

If I thought that a confrontation followed by an illegal arrest might be the spark that led to real reform, I might be willing to risk everything. As things stand, I'm not. If I am going to risk losing everything, I have to stand a good chance of winning something meaningful. I don't bet $100 for a chance to win $1.

jnojr
02-14-2009, 3:21 PM
Nevada, not California.

Went to SCOTUS, and SCOTUS upheld. It's everywhere.

Anyone who refuses to ID themselves will be arrested.

N6ATF
02-14-2009, 3:27 PM
I refer to my previous post which you seem to have missed.

In a 5-4 vote, the Supreme Court has narrowly upheld a Nevada law allowing law enforcement to arrest an individual when he refuses to identify himself, and reasonable suspicion--though not probable cause--exists that he has committed a crime.

Bolded for emphasis.

Reasonable suspicion that someone has committed a crime cannot exist if there were absolutely no elements of any crime present to begin with.

In Hiibel, there were. In our case, there cannot, and will not, be.

Anyone who refuses to ID themselves will be arrested.

And if they are arrested when there could not have possibly been reasonable suspicion of them committing a crime, because there were absolutely no elements of any crime present to begin with, those arrested will have a great lawsuit claim. Google Danladi Moore.

As far as your post #244 (http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2036922&postcount=244), the short version is comply with and verbally object to lawful and unlawful orders, and have the funds to retain a lawyer if your rights are violated.

This has been said so many times I hardly thought it bears repeating. But apparently it does.

pullnshoot25
02-14-2009, 3:44 PM
... short version is comply with and verbally object to lawful and unlawful orders, and have the funds to retain a lawyer if your rights are violated.

This has been said so many times I hardly thought it bears repeating. But apparently it does.

Freaking perfect

grammaton76
02-14-2009, 4:19 PM
For those of you who like to talk about leaving behind their ID, keep vagrancy law in mind. Anyone who decides to leave their ID and chooses not to carry $1 on them is arrestable under vagrancy law. Keep this in mind... I am not sure that credit cards count for that $1.

pullnshoot25
02-14-2009, 4:25 PM
For those of you who like to talk about leaving behind their ID, keep vagrancy law in mind. Anyone who decides to leave their ID and chooses not to carry $1 on them is arrestable under vagrancy law. Keep this in mind... I am not sure that credit cards count for that $1.

LOL are you serious? That is FUNNY!!!!

gir007
02-14-2009, 4:31 PM
well you guys from what i got and in tone they will be demanding everyone! to get the inspection..... just saying....

CitaDeL
02-14-2009, 4:54 PM
If we learned anything from this, I think it is to inform law enforcement (only as a courtesy) and not to invite them to an organized function. Its a little like throwing a BBQ and having a couple of party crashers start telling the host who can and cant participate because they were thoughtful enough to bring a package of hot dogs and a side dish.

In the interest of maintaining a rant and flame free thread, I will abide by a self-imposed banishment from this thread until after the function has concluded on the 28th.

Good luck and have a good time.

CmpsdNoMore
02-14-2009, 5:10 PM
Even though I wasn't going to be carrying, I'm considering not attending the event.

It's great that so many people want this awareness to spread, on Calguns and off, but I'd prefer to attend an "event" with fewer people. Something with more of a relaxed atmosphere, eating somewhere or hanging out with other people from Calguns.net, rather than a large group.

It's nothing personal, I hope it goes well and I'm looking forward to hearing the after report.

grammaton76
02-14-2009, 5:22 PM
Ya know, I really think the future events should be very explicit and up-front on inspection policy. Either your gun is not welcome at the event if you intend to argue with LE, or your gun is not welcome if you intend to comply and not make a scene. The two schools of thought don't seem to be very compatible, and probably would mutually prefer not to be confused for the other. So if you're a member of the school of thought that's not holding a specific event, then you are welcome but your weapon isn't.

As for myself, put me in the "won't make a scene" camp. I'm not going to start looking like Dale Gribble by going on about my rights, because it will create a negative perception amongst LEOs and passers-by. There are times I'll toss on the Gribble hat, but a public educational event is not one of them.

There are others who will consider my views an abomination, and that's ok. They're welcome to create an event which excludes folks like me from open carrying, and I'm likely to show up without a weapon on me.

I'm not so sure that combined OC events (which this is) between the two camps is necessarily a good idea. I don't particularly enjoy the prospect of dealing with an LEO that the Gribble types have already rendered surly and aggressive, and I'm sure they don't relish the thought of dealing with an LEO that my type hasn't "adequately broken in" by not flipping out at them if they just want to see my ID.