HELP. Am I being taken for a ride?

[Shotgun Dave]

So I've been exchanging emails with a local dealer who claims to work out of his home. I've been trying to get a hold of a xd45 Compact in black and he told me that it was unavailable. Today, I got this email...I'll keep his name and business confidential until I am positive that he is a guilty party.

"I understand completely.Knowing exactly what you want and not wanting to compromise is a fantastic quality! As you no doubt have found, the XD product line is essentially out of stock everywhere. Here is my deal to you: I have attached a quote for the Springfield XD45 4” barrel, compact frame handgun in black. The compact versions of handguns are typically a few dollars more expensive than their full size counterparts. I will sell you the compact XD45 at the same price as the full size XD45 if you place the order with me by next Friday, January 23rd.

Dave, all firearms dealers use the same distributors, so I will be getting the XD45 at the same time everyone does. You have only to gain in this deal.

In order to move forward with this deal, all you need to do is send me an e-mail telling me you want the gun; then send me a check for 50%: $307.85. I will then send you an invoice showing the full amount of the purchase and the deposit applied. It’s that simple. When the gun arrives, I will contact you immediately so we may conclude the sale. "

Dave I hope to hear back from you. This is a GREAT deal on a GREAT gun. I promise you I will stay on top of my distributors and keep you updated on delivery information as I receive it. Remember, this deal expires on Friday, January 23rd.

Have a great Sunday, Dave."

Here is my response..........

"What do you take me for? There is no way that I would even begin to consider doing that. In no way would I ever try to tell another man to run his business but really, how can you ask me to hand over 300 dollars to someone that I have never even met before, for an item he doesn't have, nor even have an ETA for. Does this sound reasonable to you?

I am also fairly positive that it is ILLEGAL or at least some degree of malpractice to charge for a HSC and DROS application without the physical presence of both the customer and the firearm.

I'm a firm supporter of small businesses, and I wanted to give you my business, but I guess you figured you could just take me for a ride. I think I've been speaking with the wrong person. Good bye ***."

In addition to this, in a previous email, he told me that he could start the DROS process for me 10 days before my 21st birthday and I could pick up the handgun on the day I turned 21? As far as I know, this is FALSE. Am I in the right to be this disgusted? What actions should I take?



EDIT*********************************
He was advertised right here on Calguns.net
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=143150

This is his website.
http://www.minutemanfirearms.com/

[Gunaria]

Ask for his 01FFL ID # and you can check it in the BATFE data base to see if it is current and legit. If the seller does not want to give you this info then just walk away and keep searching for your XD.

[Shotgun Dave]

I would, but I don't ever want to speak to this man again. I just want to know if this man is indeed trying to con me. If so, I will report him to the DOJ. There is nothing I hate more than crooks.

[Bruce3]

how did you find this guy and where is he based out of?

[SJgunguy24]

If the guy dosen't have an FFL than reporting him does nothing. If this guy is using the mail or the internet to knowingly dupe folks out of their money,I think the feds may take issue with that.

[JDay]

I am also fairly positive that it is ILLEGAL or at least some degree of malpractice to charge for a HSC and DROS application without the physical presence of both the customer and the firearm.

You are correct.

In addition to this, in a previous email, he told me that he could start the DROS process for me 10 days before my 21st birthday and I could pick up the handgun on the day I turned 21? As far as I know, this is FALSE. Am I in the right to be this disgusted? What actions should I take?

This guy is full of ****. How can he administer the HSC without you being there? He has to time it and verify your ID, when I got my HSC I handed the FFL my ID and he held onto it while I took the test and gave it back after he graded the test and filled out my card. You should look elsewhere.

[technique]

I would, but I don't ever want to speak to this man again. I just want to know if this man is indeed trying to con me. If so, I will report him to the DOJ. There is nothing I hate more than crooks.

I know you don't want to out the FFL, but..there are a lot of people here that my have experience with this home dealer...It may help you to post that up. People may tell you he's the most trustworthy guy ever to deal with. You never know. Its not that uncommon to require a deposit, even through a store front on an item they are ordering just for you.:)

[MrEd]

A deal only to be had by such and such time and being a great deal only from him and so on would be a huge red flag for me . a pressure sales pitch usually means something is not right . if it were me I would walk away .

[JDay]

If the guy dosen't have an FFL than reporting him does nothing. If this guy is using the mail or the internet to knowingly dupe folks out of their money,I think the feds may take issue with that.

I think the ATF would be interested in someone attempting to sell firearms without a license.

[Shotgun Dave]

I'm not willing to deface a man or his business unless I am fairly certain that he is a guilty party. I'll edit the original post with the proper identifying information if I get enough feedback confirming my beliefs.

[JDay]

You should ask him for his FFL # and verify it.

[Shotgun Dave]

I'll be back in one hour to read the responses. Thanks in advance guys I'm glad to be in the company of more knowledgeable folk than myself.

[USN CHIEF]

Like my good friend Technique said, why not just post who the FFL is and I am sure that someone has heard or dealt with this guy. I don't understand the secrecy.

[Shotgun Dave]

He responded to my email and said I should beware because this is all foreign to me.

USN Chief you are right.

He was advertised right here on Calguns.net
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=143150

This is his website.
http://www.minutemanfirearms.com/

[CSACANNONEER]

I would not do bussiness like that! If you only know this guy from the internet and he doesn't have personal references that you know and trust, I would not send him any money or even do bussiness with him. If you care to share his name here, you might get the references that you need to make an informed decission.

[M. Sage]

I am also fairly positive that it is ILLEGAL or at least some degree of malpractice to charge for a HSC and DROS application without the physical presence of both the customer and the firearm.

No. You can start DROS without a gun present. All they need is make, model and serial number.

[pavlov]

Did you actually ask for a copy of his FFL? What did he say?

[JDay]

No. You can start DROS without a gun present. All they need is make, model and serial number.

On a handgun before his 21st birthday?

[technique]

On a handgun before his 21st birthday?

that is only the word of the OP, in the post/e-mail the dealer makes no mention of that. To be fair.

[Shotgun Dave]

that is only the word of the OP, in the post/e-mail the dealer makes no mention of that. To be fair.

I have all the original emails that I exchanged with him. I can forward them to whoever wants them. I have absolutely nothing to hide here. I specifically asked him what the law is regarding when I can purchase my first handgun and he insisted that if I wanted to pick up the firearm on my birthday, (Feb 1), I would have to fill out all the paperwork by Jan 21-22 at the latest.

If I am in the wrong here, I do not want to slander this man or his business practices. I've only stated the exchanged dialogues and it's up to you guys to decide your conclusions on who is in the wrong. One of my sparring partners is a DOJ agent so I will present this issue with him so he can take a look at it. (Problem is he hasn't shown up at the gym in a month -_- )

[Shotgun Dave]

Also, almost half of my training partners are LEO so I'll try to get their opinions too tomorrow evening.

[technique]

Also, almost half of my training partners are LEO so I'll try to get their opinions too tomorrow evening.

That should be interesting...:rolleyes:


I didn't mean to insult you with my earlier post. From the E-mail you provided in you first post...nothing illegal has been said or done..just pointing that out.

I'm sure If you are 21 when you pick up the handgun and it is now lawfully yours and in your possession...well your 21 with a handgun like everyone else.

[laguns]

Last time I looked dealers need the handgun in their posession, CDL, and HSC of an over 21 buyer on the day of filing DROS.

Ted

[TomV]

Looks like the web site in based in the Netherlands ?

[JDay]

That should be interesting...:rolleyes:


I didn't mean to insult you with my earlier post. From the E-mail you provided in you first post...nothing illegal has been said or done..just pointing that out.

I'm sure If you are 21 when you pick up the handgun and it is now lawfully yours and in your possession...well your 21 with a handgun like everyone else.

DOJ will deny the DROS if you're not 21 when you fill it out.

[juicy]

rule of thumb is, if it seems too good to be true, it usually is. avoid like the plague. :cool2:

[Wild Squid]

One thing I'd like to know is have you asked whether or not you can make a credit card payment? Most credit card companies have fraud protection and will not make you responsible for certain stuff you get ripped off on. If he only accepts check then I would suspect he is one of those Nigerian scamming SOBs and we sure as hell don't want an outbreak of those here like what Craigslist has. And why is he imposing a deadline on when you have get the deal by a certain date? Screw that. Tell him you are willing to buy the gun the day after his self imposed BS deadline and that you are willing to pay whatever he wants. I frickin hate it when people say that this deal is only good up until this day and this is a GREAT deal on a GREAT product. Its the oldest trick in the book. Lastly, YES, I think it's a F'in scam.

[rkt88edmo]

Sounds like a guy who doesn't have a lot of capital to put into inventory and is just trying to get his "business" off the ground, seriously doubt it is a scam.

If you aren't comfortable doing it, don't.

[tenpercentfirearms]

As soon as a customer responds back that what I am doing is illegal, it is extremely difficult not to just write them off and move on. I do not do things that are illegal.

There is abosolutely nothing illegal about you putting a down payment on a gun and me then waiting for it to come in and when it does you coming down to start your paperwork.

The dealer is wrong about the 21 thing, but he might be a new dealer and not realize it and won't until a DROS fails from him doing this. It is hardly illegal and will be treated as an error and the dealer will lose $25 out of it.

Now, you do have a valid point that putting a down payment on a gun that someone doesn't have in stock and someone really might not have in stock for some time might not be something you want to do. There is nothing wrong with that and I agree with you.

Did it warrant your response and your thread bashing on this dealer? I am not so sure. A simple, "No thanks, I would rather not put my money down on something you don't have in stock and in this current situation really have no idea when it will come in stock. Save my e-mail and if you get in what I want, e-mail me and I will be there in a heartbeat. Thanks."

Instead, you were wrong about taking a deposit on HSC and DROS and accused him of doing something illegal when he wasn't. And then you burned your bridge and told him good bye. Now you look just as foolish and if he actually finds your gun before you do, if I were him I would tell you "Sorry, I choose not to do business with you. You said good bye, now mean it." and sell it to someone else that isn't going to go off the handle any time they perceive something to be wrong.

Remember, you can catch more flies with honey. And if you are going to make serious allegations of illegal activity about a business in a public forum, be sure you are correct otherwise you will look like a fool.

[BroncoBob]

I agree with Wes on this one.

[hoffman259]

I am going to have to agree with wes on this one also.

Nothing says you have to do buisness with him. He is also starting a new buisness and sometimes people make mistakes.

[JDay]

One thing I'd like to know is have you asked whether or not you can make a credit card payment? Most credit card companies have fraud protection and will not make you responsible for certain stuff you get ripped off on.

USPS money orders come with a ton of protection from the federal government. I'd feel much better using one of those since the CC company usually just writes it off but the Postal Inspector will get involved in cases of mail fraud.

[SnWnMe]

Here is my response..........

"What do you take me for? There is no way that I would even begin to consider doing that. In no way would I ever try to tell another man to run his business but really, how can you ask me to hand over 300 dollars to someone that I have never even met before, for an item he doesn't have, nor even have an ETA for. Does this sound reasonable to you?

I am also fairly positive that it is ILLEGAL or at least some degree of malpractice to charge for a HSC and DROS application without the physical presence of both the customer and the firearm.

I'm a firm supporter of small businesses, and I wanted to give you my business, but I guess you figured you could just take me for a ride. I think I've been speaking with the wrong person. Good bye ***."

In addition to this, in a previous email, he told me that he could start the DROS process for me 10 days before my 21st birthday and I could pick up the handgun on the day I turned 21? As far as I know, this is FALSE. Am I in the right to be this disgusted?
What actions should I take?
http://www.minutemanfirearms.com/[/url]

Yes.

Learn tact and diplomacy.

[tmuller]

Learn tact and diplomacy.

Good suggestion. I also have to agree with Wes. Didn't even sound shady except for the DROS before 21 issue. When I first read the OP my initial response was NO, you're not getting ripped off. I've put money down on guns that were not in stock and have yet to be burned. Knocks on wood...

[SunriseF150]

Well I put down a $350 deposit for my FFL to order my XD45 w/ night sights. Their distributor had 1 left in stock. The XD40 sub compact w/ night sights was what I originally wanted but she had no idea when one would be available. So it was either wait maybe a few months for that one, or get the 45 now. I wanted the 45 too so it wasn't like I was settling for something else.

If you asked him for his FFL# and looked it up to see it's valid, you could have found out if he was for real or not. And like Wes said, he may have just made a mistake on the DROS part about you being able to fill it out a week before you turn 21.


Hell I went into a gun shop a few weeks ago looking for a used python. They told me they don't get them in on consignment very often. I told them there's only 1 model on the approved list and finding that one might be very hard. They told me that I could get the other models shipped here from out of state as long as it's used. I said doesn't it have to be in CA already, and do a PPT, for me to purchase a non approved handgun. They said, nope you can have a non approved handgun shipped in as long as it's used. I am pretty damn sure thats not correct. Luckily I found one for sale here in CA anyways.

[dfletcher]

USPS money orders come with a ton of protection from the federal government. I'd feel much better using one of those since the CC company usually just writes it off but the Postal Inspector will get involved in cases of mail fraud.


Have to disagree on this one - with a CC I'm using their $$$ (CC company)and they can try & get it back or write it off, makes no difference to me. But with USPS I'm stuck trying to get back my money.

I've done a few charge backs for services/product not received. Since so many people do use USPS I think it would be helpful to hear from those who have tried to get their $$$ back - what was the process, how well did it go. Might be a good tutorial.

[dfletcher]

Well I put down a $350 deposit for my FFL to order my XD45 w/ night sights. Their distributor had 1 left in stock. The XD40 sub compact w/ night sights was what I originally wanted but she had no idea when one would be available. So it was either wait maybe a few months for that one, or get the 45 now. I wanted the 45 too so it wasn't like I was settling for something else.

If you asked him for his FFL# and looked it up to see it's valid, you could have found out if he was for real or not. And like Wes said, he may have just made a mistake on the DROS part about you being able to fill it out a week before you turn 21.


Hell I went into a gun shop a few weeks ago looking for a used python. They told me they don't get them in on consignment very often. I told them there's only 1 model on the approved list and finding that one might be very hard. They told me that I could get the other models shipped here from out of state as long as it's used. I said doesn't it have to be in CA already, and do a PPT, for me to purchase a non approved handgun. They said, nope you can have a non approved handgun shipped in as long as it's used. I am pretty damn sure thats not correct. Luckily I found one for sale here in CA anyways.


That's interesting. I bought a mid 70s Model 28 a while ago, have a C & R and COE and the dealer did the 4473, DROS and handed the thing to me as in "here ya go - have a nice day". Talk about moment of truth, had to tell him I had to do the wait.

We're so used to "anti FUD" & what we can't have, maybe we need "pro FUD" when someone makes a mistake the other way? Then again, if it's good news I guess it's not really FUD.

[csmintel]

Also, almost half of my training partners are LEO so I'll try to get their opinions too tomorrow evening.

LEO's, well, most of them are not lawyers. you may need to ask someone who knows more, much more.

[JDay]

Have to disagree on this one - with a CC I'm using their $$$ (CC company)and they can try & get it back or write it off, makes no difference to me. But with USPS I'm stuck trying to get back my money.

I've done a few charge backs for services/product not received. Since so many people do use USPS I think it would be helpful to hear from those who have tried to get their $$$ back - what was the process, how well did it go. Might be a good tutorial.

If you send a USPS money order and get nothing in exchange it becomes mail fraud, the FBI and USPS Inspectors will get involved. Most criminals don't want a federal investigation. If you get their FFL# and send it to that address it make recovering your money much easier too. In fact you shouldn't deal with any FFL via mail without verifying that #.