PPT Question (Firearm Ownership Record)

[lorax3]

I was in Turner's today attempting to do another PPT. When a sales associate realized we wanted to do a PPT, he handed me this form (see bottom) and told me to fill it out and send it to the DOJ, as it's cheaper and easier that a PPT through an FFL.

I would like to double check on this, as I thought ALL PPT's of a longgun ( shotgun) had to go through an FFL along with the the DROS and the 10 day waiting period.

I would please like some clarification on this issue, see the link below for the form. Both the buyer and seller were residents of CA.

Another thing I was at Turners the day before doing an unrelated PPT, and there was no mention of this Firearm Ownership Record form, we just did a normal PPT.

EDIT: It was a Mossberg 500A, less than two months old. (To clear up any rules regarding C&R)

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf

Thanks for any info!

-lorax

[Quiet]

I was in Turner's today attempting to do another PPT. When a sales associate realized we wanted to do a PPT, he handed me this form (see bottom) and told me to fill it out and send it to the DOJ, as it's cheaper and easier that a PPT through an FFL.

The sale associate is telling you to break CA law.
DO NOT DO WHAT HE TOLD YOU.


Penal Code 12072
(d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

Penal Code 12082
(a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.

[lorax3]

Thanks for the fast reply Quiet.

What then would be the purpose of this form? As there is an option on the form for "Private Party".

Thanks again

-lorax

[nobs11]

Thanks for the fast reply Quiet.

What then would be the purpose of this form? As there is an option on the form for "Private Party".

Thanks again

-lorax

That form is for voluntary registration for all cases which do not require FFL transfer.

Such as inheriting a gun from your parents, importing handguns with you when you move to CA from another state, etc.

NOT for a PPT on a long gun that is not > 50 years.

The guy's employment should be terminated for spreading incorrect information. Can get someone in trouble with the law. I never set foot in Turners, but the stories that we keep hearing are pretty amazing.

[lorax3]

Gotcha. I appreciate the help, knowledge is power!
Haha

-lorax

[JDay]

That sales rep is on crack. The form that he gave you is the "Voluntary Registration" form for long guns. Unless the long gun is C&R (50 years old or more) you have to do the PPT through an FFL. You should go back in there and ask for the manager, tell him the story and get that guy canned.

[CavTrooper]

That sales rep is on crack. The form that he gave you is the "Voluntary Registration" form for long guns.

Why is there box for handguns? :rolleyes:

[JDay]

Why is there box for handguns? :rolleyes:
Oops, forgot thats on the same form.

[Quiet]

That form is for voluntary registration for all cases which do not require FFL transfer.

Such as inheriting a gun from your parents, importing handguns with you when you move to CA from another state, etc.
Wrong form.

Remember long guns (rifles/shotguns) are not reigstered in CA and handgun transactions were not automatically registered until after 1991.

The Firearms Ownership Record (http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf) is to register firearms that you own that are not registered with CA DOJ. Such as handguns that you owned before 1991, firearms that you have made for personal use and for long guns (rifles/shotguns) that you want to have reigstered to you for whatever personal reason.

The Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf) is used to reigster any handguns that are recieved through intra-familial gifting (grandparent/parent/child/grandchild) between CA residents and for inhertance/bequest. Long guns do not need to be registered if aquired through intra-familial gifting between CA residents and for inheritance/bequest.

The New Resident Handgun Ownership Report (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf) is used by new CA residents to register any handguns they bring with them to CA. New CA residents do not need to register any long guns they bring with them to CA.

The Curio & Relic Handgun Report (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/curioapp.pdf) is used by CA C&R FFLs to register any C&R handguns they aquire in person outside of CA and bring to CA. CA C&R FFLs do not need to reigster any C&R long arms they aquire outside of CA.

[Shotgun Man]

What would happen if he used the form? Filing the form would seem to cause the handgun to be registered in his name, but he would have been party to an illegal transfer.

Who's on the hook for this-- both buyer and seller? Would the DOJ likely catch on?

[ohsmily]

Were you the buyer or the seller??? Neither of you (presuming there was another party) knew that this guy had his head up his *** and was wrong?

If you go back there, you should ask to speak with the manager and tell him what his ****ing stupid *** employee told you to do...

[lorax3]

Thats the thing, I could have sword when I was there it HAD to go through an FFL. Like I said I was at this same turners location the day before doing a PPT through another employee and he seemed to know what he was doing.

I was the buyer, although the seller and I were friend and carpooled there. I remember telling him the whole way back, "I think that is illegal" haha. He said to can it and post it on Cal-Guns to check.

Should I really go back tomorrow and tell the manager about this particular employee?

-lorax

[JDay]

What would happen if he used the form? Filing the form would seem to cause the handgun to be registered in his name, but he would have been party to an illegal transfer.

Who's on the hook for this-- both buyer and seller? Would the DOJ likely catch on?

I wouldn't want to be the one to find out.

[JDay]

Should I really go back tomorrow and tell the manager about this particular employee?

-lorax

Yes, that employee is telling people to commit a felony.

[fairfaxjim]

Should I really go back tomorrow and tell the manager about this particular employee?

-lorax

YES! You could save the next guy he gives this BS line to a lot of hassle. At least you knew enough to question this, what about some poor cluless guy just trying to sell his buddy a gun he has had in the closet for 15 years?

This person has no business working a gun counter whithout some serious training.

[lorax3]

I ended up going to Big 5 later and doing it there. They seem alright, with their "11 day" background check.

I am debating going back to Turners, I don't want to seem like a dou*** but that employee will only cause more problems by spreading false information.

-lorax

[scootergmc]

What kind of shotgun were you trying to transfer, and how old is it?

[lorax3]

It was a Mossberg 500A, less than two months old.

[scootergmc]

10-4. I had some wishful thinking it was over 50 years old and the dude was trying to save you some $. Given the fact it's new, I'll now agree with the rest... he's an idiot.

[ontargetrange]

As an FFL holder I totally agree with Quiet about this ---- you need to get to the management of Turners and put a stop to this -- just about every week we hear another story about Turners and what they are doing -- if they keep it up they will end up going the way of Kmart and Wally World -- no firearm sales in Kalifornia --- no matter what we need them to to be there even of they are my competition ---

[xxdabroxx]

Someone i know is going through this same situation right not. He is purchasing a pistol from a private party, went to the gun store to do the transfer. They sent him home with the firearm ownership record sheet and the firearm.

I told him to hold off off sending that form in until we can figure the legalities of it all. It is a S&W M&P pistol that was originally sold in 2007.

I would like to verify that the pistol does or does not need to stay at the FFL for the required 10 days like any other transfer, or is there a way around this w/ the ownership record sheet?

just had another thought. There is a way to say that you no longer are the owner of a particular firearm right? If they took the pistol out of the original owners name and then gave it to my friend and told him to register it voluntarily. Could that be what they are trying to do?

where do you guys get your penal code citations from? i need to bookmark it.

[Glock22Fan]

where do you guys get your penal code citations from? i need to bookmark it.

Get mine here http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/index.html

There's also Findlaw.com, but I'm less familiar with that. Possible starting point http://california.lp.findlaw.com/ca01_codes/index.html

[lorax3]

Someone i know is going through this same situation right not. He is purchasing a pistol from a private party, went to the gun store to do the transfer. They sent him home with the firearm ownership record sheet and the firearm.

I told him to hold off off sending that form in until we can figure the legalities of it all. It is a S&W M&P pistol that was originally sold in 2007.

I would like to verify that the pistol does or does not need to stay at the FFL for the required 10 days like any other transfer, or is there a way around this w/ the ownership record sheet?

just had another thought. There is a way to say that you no longer are the owner of a particular firearm right? If they took the pistol out of the original owners name and then gave it to my friend and told him to register it voluntarily. Could that be what they are trying to do?

where do you guys get your penal code citations from? i need to bookmark it.

I belive you are refering to THIS (http://www.mendocino.courts.ca.gov/forms/FirearmFD4036.pdf) form. However note the asterisk at the bottom.

"NOTE: Effective January 1, 1991 PC 12072 States when neither party involved in a sale or transfer of a firearm possesses a dealer's license, issued pursuant to PC Section 1271, the transaction MUST be completed through a firearms dealer."

http://www.mendocino.courts.ca.gov/forms/FirearmFD4036.pdf

Assume that ALL PPT's have to go thorough an FFL. There a few exceptions, such as an intra-familial transfe (http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf)r in which both parties are current residents of CA.

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf


Just had another thought. There is a way to say that you no longer are the owner of a particular firearm right? If they took the pistol out of the original owners name and then gave it to my friend and told him to register it voluntarily. Could that be what they are trying to do?


No, that will not work. As doing a Private Party Transfer after January 1, 1991 requires you to go through an FFL. What would be your other options with the "no longer in possestion form"? have the owner say he no longer posses it becuase it was stolen? Then the new buyers register it? Haha. That seems like a bad call......

Just go a local FFL, or go back to the one you originally went to with the Penal code printed out to show him/her the law.

-lorax

[Librarian]

Someone i know is going through this same situation right not. He is purchasing a pistol from a private party, went to the gun store to do the transfer. They sent him home with the firearm ownership record sheet and the firearm.

I told him to hold off off sending that form in until we can figure the legalities of it all. It is a S&W M&P pistol that was originally sold in 2007.

I would like to verify that the pistol does or does not need to stay at the FFL for the required 10 days like any other transfer, or is there a way around this w/ the ownership record sheet?
It needs to be a dealer-mediated PPT, so YES, it has to have the 10 day wait, the HSC, the proof of residency, the handling demo, the lock, the DROS fee - all those Dealer Things.

just had another thought. There is a way to say that you no longer are the owner of a particular firearm right? If they took the pistol out of the original owners name and then gave it to my friend and told him to register it voluntarily. Could that be what they are trying to do?

Don't know exactly what they're trying to do, but there's no way around the FFL for handguns in-state unless intrafamilial.

Get mine here http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/index.html

There's also Findlaw.com, but I'm less familiar with that. Possible starting point http://california.lp.findlaw.com/ca01_codes/index.html

One more, the official CA site:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html
The search function is just pathetic, but it sort of works.