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View Full Version : Arming myself with facts/laws/anti-FUD!


Ironchef
01-15-2009, 09:04 AM
Was in a debate yesterday with someone and I felt like I was talking to that gunbroker guy you all destroyed with common sense (highballer?). Anyway, the guy I was talking to lives in Arizona, has every piece of FUD in his head regarding firearms, and believes everything but what is true and lawful.

For example, he believes that his buddy, who "sells AKs all day long for $800" gets them from his California vendor and that they're the good Chinese and Russian ones straight from "over there." He swears they're legit and fully lawful. Laughing I remark, "but surely they've been imported correcty and lawfully and comply with 922(r) having no more than 10 foreign parts out of the defined 16 total parts?" To which I hear crickets and then a sworn belief that his buddy (he then qualifies his buddy by saying he's in the FBI, taught him his CCW class, trains military and federal agents, etc, etc...) is selling the real deal and says they are completely lawful and don't have american parts...blah blah...

Anyway, my question: Is there any way around 922(r) in regards to AK importation and sales, regardless of state?


He then talks about a different FFL buddy of his who he's going to be buying 10 COLT AR15s from and the ones he will buy are short barreled (I assume <16") and have a side folding stock (I confirmed it wasn't a collapsable stock but a side folder), and they were all flat tops with scopes on them and sold in a hard case. I didn't bother asking what price (assuming it'd be around $1500-$2000) but mentioned it was impossible to be an AR since a side folder means it doesn't have a bolt buffer to cycle the BCG (I then explained how the action of an AR works in 3rd grader terms). But he insisted and offered to get me pictures of them.

My question here is...was I wrong? Is there a side folding stock SBR AR15 offering by Colt..or any other AR manufacturer?


We also talked about his friend's mom in a different state buying a gun for her son, then he took it and it was legal to take it home (to another state) because he drove it and didn't mail it... I didn't know what to cite on this one but I told him it was a felony to traffic handguns across state lines..he of course qualified his friend (apollo mission commander, owner of the navy seals, president of 4 countries, god, etc..) as being credible.

What are the rules on buying, giving, and transporting handguns between states..more specifically, mom buying a gun for her son and son taking it home to his state?


Thanks...and yes, I know...but I love this person enough to inform him of the right way to do things and to stop being so bull headed.

Oh, one other thing..it was about open carry. I mentioned how unloaded open carry is lawful here in incorporated cities and he went on to say that if he were a criminal robbing a store or committing a crime, that if he saw someone carrying a gun, he'd pop him first. I told him that law enforcement profiles of criminals show they choose the path of least resistence and most certainly don't just murder someone before they rob a gas station just because they saw someone with a gun. Of course he's a pro and talked about the career criminals he pretended to know and said they'd all just pop the gun toter. I explained opencarry.org to him and how there's no real precedent where that has happened (a guess) and he said "you go ahead and believe those 'blogs' and I'll believe my buddy [qualified as a fbi agent, trainer, ccw instructor, etc. etc...]..and he got pissed and hun up.


Anyway, again, thanks for the citations, examples, and input. I don't want to turn my back..this is an excellent chance for me to represent law and tear down some fud.

rayra
01-15-2009, 10:00 AM
Teaching a Pig to Sing.

What else is your dear friend relentlessly stupid about?
What value do they bring into your life?

Ironchef
01-15-2009, 10:07 AM
Teaching a Pig to Sing.

What else is your dear friend relentlessly stupid about?
What value do they bring into your life?

Life long friend..just got tired of humoring him when he pretends to know more than he does. I feel as a proponent and as somewhat of a 2A activist, it's my duty to properly inform him.

Any comments or answers to the questions? I felt about 95% sure of myself disputing him...was going to write him once my citations and assumptions are correct. This will surely be a revolutionary (and evolutionary) moment for us once I do write him so I have to do it right.

gunn
01-15-2009, 10:39 AM
A "Gas Piston AR" setup would allow for a side-folder.

<google will help>
There are several guns that follow that pattern as well (5.56 ammo, collapsable stock, NOT an AK).
Off the top of my head: Keltec SU-16C, Sig 556 SWAT, Daewoo K2, AR180...

Ironchef
01-15-2009, 10:45 AM
A "Gas Piston AR" setup would allow for a side-folder.

<google will help>
There are several guns that follow that pattern as well (5.56 ammo, collapsable stock, NOT an AK).
Off the top of my head: Keltec SU-16C, Sig 556 SWAT, Daewoo K2, AR180...

I was just researching that and I'm at Colt's site now and I see now offering of a side folder. I'm wondering now if they offer the gas piston model, which could then be complimented with an aftermarket AR side folder stock, no?

Thanks!

ohsmily
01-15-2009, 10:49 AM
There are side folding AR variants.

The ZM weapons system (which is supposed to start being produced by Para Ordnance) comes to mind

http://www.zmweapons.com/lr_rifles.htm

Dr Rockso
01-15-2009, 10:50 AM
The OA-93 has the recoil system entirely housed within the upper assembly.
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/oa93a.jpg

Ironchef
01-15-2009, 10:55 AM
Ack..so ugly! Isn't that a gas piston type upper? lol But thanks for that. I'm going to assume he meant "Colt" as a generic term (he also thinks only Colt makes the 1911...yeah, I know) for the AR15 (even though "AR" comes from Armalite initially). I confirmed "Colt? The manufacturer 'Colt'? The guys that make the military M16's and M4's?" He said, "Yes, Colt."

I see only direct gas systems for Colt's rifles, and one gas blowback system for their 9mm submachine gun (not an ar15).

So cool... Anyone with comments or citations for 922(r) or answers to my OP questions? If the letter goes well, maybe I'll put it in this thread with his response! lol

Dr Rockso
01-15-2009, 11:25 AM
Ack..so ugly! Isn't that a gas piston type upper?
I've been told that the Oly's are DI with the recoil system relocated, but I don't have any first hand experience with them so I'm not 100% certain.

Ironchef
01-15-2009, 01:12 PM
So 922(r)?? Any pros out there who know the ins and outs of this? Is there any place in this country that sells complete AK47's as they were purchased from Russia/China? Or do they need to comply with 922r for importation?

Mssr. Eleganté
01-15-2009, 05:39 PM
So 922(r)?? Any pros out there who know the ins and outs of this? Is there any place in this country that sells complete AK47's as they were purchased from Russia/China? Or do they need to comply with 922r for importation?

"Munitions" importations from China have been banned since 1994. The only thing we can legally get from China now are black powder firearms and "sporting" shotguns. No other guns or ammunition are allowed in. This ban is totally separate from the 922(r) "non-sporting" importation ban that applies to all countries.

There is a similar ban on importation of "munitions" from the Russian Federation, but the Russian ban has exceptions for a bunch of different "sporting" and C&R firearms that are still allowed to be imported into the US. AK47's are not one of the exceptions, so we can't import them.

Unlike the "non-sporting" import ban that 922(r) deals with, I'm pretty sure that the China and Russia munitions bans do not have exceptions for U.S. law enforcement. So if your friend says somebody is importing AK47's from China and Russia, he is mistaken.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-15-2009, 06:24 PM
We also talked about his friend's mom in a different state buying a gun for her son, then he took it and it was legal to take it home (to another state) because he drove it and didn't mail it... I didn't know what to cite on this one but I told him it was a felony to traffic handguns across state lines..he of course qualified his friend (apollo mission commander, owner of the navy seals, president of 4 countries, god, etc..) as being credible.

What are the rules on buying, giving, and transporting handguns between states..more specifically, mom buying a gun for her son and son taking it home to his state?

Here is the section of Federal law that prohibits acquiring guns out of state. Notice that it applies just the same whether you ship the gun home or carry the gun home. Either way is illegal. Notice also that both the giver and the taker of the gun would be violating the law in your friends scenario. Many folks seem to think there is an exception to this law for transfers between living family members, but there is not.


§ 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful --

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides;

Librarian
01-15-2009, 10:20 PM
Well, I was going to point you at my usual
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=114142
and
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=124237
and
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_firearms_Interstate
and
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members

But Mssr. Eleganté has already done the heavy lifting. Nicely done.

But say, don't I know that .sig from someplace? :)

Captain Evilstomper
01-15-2009, 11:22 PM
i LOVE poisonous magic pie, btw
.........and Molotov C*cktease is friggin hot

Ironchef
01-16-2009, 09:11 AM
All questions answered! You guys are friggen geniuses! Thanks!