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pacrimguru
01-07-2009, 1:50 PM
i have a question about permanently altering a mag for 10 round capacity. what methods are accepted as legally permanent? i want to do this right, so i have 2 magazines that are 30 round rebuild kits that i wish to turn into 10/30's.

here are the 2 scenarios:

plastic pmag kit: (yes, i am aware of the how to instructions in the other section)
Q: is it made CA legal by simply rendering it incapable of accepting more than 10 rounds and epoxying the floorplate to the body?

usgi kit:
Q: is it made CA legal by simply rendering it incapable of accepting more than 10 rounds and riveting the follower so that it cannot go past 10 rounds?

thanks for any input you guys can give.

(sorry, i tried searching the legal and how to sections without much success.)

Arkalius
01-07-2009, 2:00 PM
My question is why would you want to? Possession of high capacity magazines isn't illegal. If you are trying to get some mags for a fixed mag build (BB or prince 50 etc) then I recommend just buying a few 10 rounders instead. If I owned hi-caps I certainly wouldn't waste that by modifying them...

pwall
01-07-2009, 2:16 PM
just make sure it isn't "readily restorable to accept more than 10 rounds" and your good to go. Your definition of "readily restorable" may be different than the courts.

Ironchef
01-07-2009, 2:18 PM
just make sure it isn't "readily restorable to accept more than 10 rounds" and your good to go. Your definition of "readily restorable" may be different than the courts.

Are you serious? Is there really "readily restorable" language in some penal code? Sounds alot like "constructive" myth-based PC.

bwiese
01-07-2009, 2:24 PM
Are you serious? Is there really "readily restorable" language in some penal code? Sounds alot like "constructive" myth-based PC.

"Permanent" is not defined in relation to restoration of mag capacity.

Since it's up in the air I recommend that the mag be well-nigh destroyed if an attempt to increase capacity beyond 10rds (in the stated caliber) were made.

This is mostly applicable to the doofuses who use diasassembled hicap mag parts to build 10/30s.

pwall
01-07-2009, 2:31 PM
Just found this quote on the AG's website.

(2) "Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of accommodating more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

pacrimguru
01-07-2009, 2:35 PM
My question is why would you want to? Possession of high capacity magazines isn't illegal. If you are trying to get some mags for a fixed mag build (BB or prince 50 etc) then I recommend just buying a few 10 rounders instead. If I owned hi-caps I certainly wouldn't waste that by modifying them...

yes, because i am using it with a P50 and cannot find a 10/30 pmag in any store, anywhere.

grammaton76
01-07-2009, 2:42 PM
usgi kit:
Q: is it made CA legal by simply rendering it incapable of accepting more than 10 rounds and riveting the follower so that it cannot go past 10 rounds?

I would not consider the rivet method to be remotely permanent, if you're talking about those aluminum pop rivets. Some folks do, I don't. I would consider it fairly permanent if you're FILLING the bottom of the mag with epoxy so that anything under where the 10rd point would be, is an immovable block of goo...

MindBuilder
01-07-2009, 10:52 PM
I'm not a lawyer so I could easily be wrong about this, but I don't think "permanent" means "impossible to reverse". For example a permanent structure can be bulldozed. Permanent ink can be dissolved by some solvents. A permanent injunction can be revoked under some circumstances.

A screw is made to be removable but a rivet is meant to be permanent.
A pop rivet in the right spot would permanently limit a magazine to 10 rounds. Reversing such a permanent modification would require machining the metal of the magazine (i.e. drilling the rivet). No magazine modification is absolutely irreversible. If you cut a magazine in half, an extension can be welded back on.

And as far as I understand, if the law is vague, then it should be decided in favour of the defendant. But then the courts frequently ignore the law(e.g. the 2nd Amdt) when they don't like it. And you still might get arrested and have to pay a lawyer tens of thousands of dollars to defend you.

For a little more defensible "permanent" modification i would suggest welding a block into the mag. Even just a few spot welds would sound a little more permanent than a pop rivet.

grammaton76
01-07-2009, 11:00 PM
For a little more defensible "permanent" modification i would suggest welding a block into the mag. Even just a few spot welds would sound a little more permanent than a pop rivet.

Congrats, you've just arrived at the same conclusion Bill and I have been telling folks to make... :)

The one problem is that it's tough to weld on an aluminum USGI mag. This is why the first seriously bulletproof-perm mags were steel AK mags, with welded rods internally.

12GAUGE
01-07-2009, 11:04 PM
yes, because i am using it with a P50 and cannot find a 10/30 pmag in any store, anywhere.

Was in Ammo Bros today and the had plenty.

Sarkoon
01-08-2009, 10:43 AM
What about new model pistols - if I purchase an XD-M either "pre-owned" from someone in LE or through the NeRF process - it might be difficult to legally obtain standard capacity (19 round) magazines for it, and they don't make 10 round mags for it. So I was thinking the only legal option would be to ship in the parts from the factory mags, and then build them up with a block in place limiting them to 10 rounds.

FreedomIsNotFree
01-08-2009, 11:01 AM
Sure its dancing with the devil, but if you are the original manufacturer of a magazine, there is no permanence requirement. The question becomes, if you have various magazine parts, which have never been assembled, and you are the person that originally puts the parts together to create a magazine, are you the manufacturer or simply the assembler?