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hoffmang
01-06-2009, 2:58 PM
All,

I've gotten some major updates for the Nordyke hearing. C-SPAN is set to receive a court order later today granting them permission to film the hearing. I believe but have not yet been able to confirm that it will be broadcast live on C-SPAN. I'll post those details when I have them.

The capacity of Courtoom 1 is approximately 60 persons. We'll first overflow into the cafeteria where there is closed circuit coverage of Courtroom 1 and if that's not enough room, we'll likely overflow into Courtroom 3. The court has been made fully aware of the expected crowd size.

Good news for LEOs. The US Marshals will be staffing up that day and should be able to accommodate checking your carry firearms. I don't think the court will allow CCW holders and other non LEO individuals to check weapons, but at least the officers among us will be taken care of. If you have a question, feel free to call the court and ask to speak to the Marshals. They are now expecting us.

I'll post more as the date approaches. Dinner will be held afterward at the Market Street Grill in the Whitcomb hotel. We should have the bar open from after oral argument through dinner. We'll have more details on dinner hopefully later today.

-Gene

Liberty1
01-06-2009, 3:15 PM
...I don't think the court will allow CCW holders and other non LEO individuals to check weapons...


Can they discriminate like this? So what do people do who use public transit?

sorensen440
01-06-2009, 3:17 PM
great news

hoffmang
01-06-2009, 3:33 PM
Can they discriminate like this? So what do people do who use public transit?

Federal courts by and large get to make their own rules...

-Gene

Liberty1
01-06-2009, 3:52 PM
Federal courts by and large get to make their own rules...

-Gene

I guess it's good to be me. So if everyone put their carry pieces in an extra large "rolling" briefcase and handed it to me I could turn to the Marshals and say, "please watch my guns for me". :D

DDT
01-06-2009, 3:53 PM
I guess it's good to be me. So if everyone put their carry pieces in an extra large "rolling" briefcase and handed it to me I could turn to the Marshals and say, "please watch my guns for me". :D

And, when you pick them up you get to pick the best one to take home....

halifax
01-06-2009, 3:55 PM
Can they discriminate like this? So what do people do who use public transit?

That's absolute BS. LEOs are civilians permitted to carry, so are CCW holders.

I guess I could pay one of the homeless guys out front to hold it for me. :confused:

Liberty1
01-06-2009, 4:00 PM
That's absolute BS. LEOs are civilians permitted to carry, so are CCW holders.

I guess I could pay one of the homeless guys out front to hold it for me. :confused:

Gene:

If you have a question, feel free to call the court and ask to speak to the Marshals.

Can't hurt to ask pretty please of who ever is the watch commander. I'm sure some of our CA LEOs would share gun locker space if possible and be the key holder.

hoffmang
01-06-2009, 4:43 PM
That's absolute BS. LEOs are civilians permitted to carry, so are CCW holders.


I suggest a CCW holder call the court, ask for the Marshals and ask if they'll be ok with checking firearms of valid CCW holders. (415) 355-8000.

-Gene

Python2
01-06-2009, 5:10 PM
Are you CCW holders uncomfortable coming to SF un-armed?:D I am, specially around that area. A friend of mine was mugged along 6th a few years back.

Liberty1
01-06-2009, 6:58 PM
Are you CCW holders uncomfortable coming to SF un-armed?:D I am, specially around that area. A friend of mine was mugged along 6th a few years back.

Do we need to detail squads to keep watch for Iggy. All CCW belong to him!

bulgron
01-06-2009, 7:10 PM
Are you CCW holders uncomfortable coming to SF un-armed?:D I am, specially around that area. A friend of mine was mugged along 6th a few years back.

Now you know one of the big reasons why I'm not going to this; I live in a county that doesn't issue ordinary civilians CCW permits, and there ain't no way I'm willingly going to San Francisco and other large cities without a firearm.

sorensen440
01-06-2009, 7:13 PM
Now you know one of the big reasons why I'm not going to this; I live in a county that doesn't issue ordinary civilians CCW permits, and there ain't no way I'm willingly going to San Francisco and other large cities without a firearm.

Safety in numbers bro that's why almost everyone is carpoolin

M. D. Van Norman
01-06-2009, 8:03 PM
While I can appreciate the “problem” of not being allowed to bring your legally carried handgun, one day is very unlikely to kill you. ;)

pullnshoot25
01-06-2009, 8:40 PM
While I can appreciate the “problem” of not being allowed to bring your legally carried handgun, one day is very unlikely to kill you. ;)

But it is the principle of the matter.... fudge, if I went I would be packing too, HAHA!

hoffmang
01-06-2009, 8:48 PM
And dinner details and tickets (http://calgunsfoundation.org/main/index.php/events/38-events/64-nordykedinner) are now available.

-Gene

MrBi11
01-06-2009, 8:53 PM
But it is the principle of the matter.... fudge, if I went I would be packing too, HAHA!

Aren't there enough issues there already? You shouldn't use the word fudge and the word Packing in the same sentence.

jdberger
01-06-2009, 9:18 PM
Though I appreciate how naked some of you feel without a firearm, please remember that there will be a large group of us. Further, most of the time you'll be in a relatively secure location.

Most importantly, you'll have a chance to see a Circuit Court in action, have a nice meal with colleagues and meet some of the premier experts in firearms law.

Come - it's a good cause.

So often I hear gunnies complain that no one listens, government doesn't care, that they don't feel represented.

Well, this is your chance to stand up and be counted. All you have to do is come to San Francisco and wear a jacket and tie.

Show these folks who you are.

Librarian
01-06-2009, 10:21 PM
And dinner details and tickets (http://calgunsfoundation.org/main/index.php/events/38-events/64-nordykedinner) are now available.

-Gene
I'm in and paid.

But PAYPAL? (I know, what's the alternative...:( )

yellowfin
01-06-2009, 10:26 PM
Aren't there enough issues there already? You shouldn't use the word fudge and the word Packing in the same sentence.I would remind you to consider the location in question, but perhaps that'd be a touch crude.

Theseus
01-06-2009, 11:15 PM
:kest:Too bad I am otherwise occupied the next day...If I had a ride I have a brother in Oakland, save the hotel...and if I knew I could be back in court by 8Am on Friday I would be there in a heartbeat...

Anyone have room on the back of their pig truck? Actually...if I can get a few people to go and help with gas I will drive up there. . . Any takers...PM me!

FreedomIsNotFree
01-06-2009, 11:38 PM
Gene,

If you get a chance, try and find out if C-SPAN plans to post the video to their site. I'll be on a plane and unable to attend or watch live. Thanks.

Heatseeker
01-10-2009, 3:18 PM
Just to confirm, C-SPAN will be covering this live? Unfortunately, I'll be working and unable to attend, but I do have a DVR :) .

After work, I may be able to swing by the restaurant to meet some of the peeps I electronically converse with so often.

And just a point of info, I lived near or in SF most of my life. I even ran around the 'hoods in the middle of the night at times. Obviously unarmed. And I'm still here to tell you about it. I understand it's the principle of not being able to carry with a CCW, but it's one day guys. It's a federal court. And it's for a good cause. So if you can go, go!

Zebra
01-10-2009, 4:05 PM
Trying to get to calgundsfoundation.org for tickets right now (1/10 - 4:00), but no luck. Is the site down?

Frank

CRQuarto
01-10-2009, 4:10 PM
Trying to get to calgundsfoundation.org for tickets right now (1/10 - 4:00), but no luck. Is the site down?

Frank

Same here :(

sierratangofoxtrotunion
01-10-2009, 4:32 PM
Just to confirm, C-SPAN will be covering this live?

I haven't heard of anybody confirming that yet. Also, their schedule on their website doesn't have next Thursday yet. I'll cut them a little slack as I can imagine some things that they'd show may happen with little notice.

hoffmang
01-10-2009, 4:55 PM
I know that C-SPAN's cameras will be there. I don't know if it will be a live broadcast or delayed yet. I think we may be able to find out on Monday.

CGF.org does seem to be unhappy. I've asked the admins to poke it.

-Gene

hoffmang
01-10-2009, 5:00 PM
CGF (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/main/).org is back and tickets are available here (http://calgunsfoundation.org/main/index.php/events/38-events/64-nordykedinner).

-Gene

Zebra
01-10-2009, 5:40 PM
Zebra and Alles will be there!

Frank

doughboy334
01-11-2009, 1:34 AM
in for the win (just paid)

Liberty1
01-13-2009, 8:44 AM
bump

BE THERE!!! JUST DO IT!!! MAKE IT HAPPEN!!! THIS MISSION IS JOB 1!!!

Python2
01-13-2009, 11:30 AM
Will attend. Just paid the dinner too.

yellowfin
01-13-2009, 12:14 PM
My dog just cost my wife and me $1500 on a vet bill for eating something out of the trashcan or off the ground :mad::mad::mad: I gotta dogsit and stay home for the next week while she goes on a job interview out of state, so no Nordyke for me :(

bulgron
01-13-2009, 1:42 PM
My dog just cost my wife and me $1500 on a vet bill for eating something out of the trashcan or off the ground :mad::mad::mad: I gotta dogsit and stay home for the next week while she goes on a job interview out of state, so no Nordyke for me :(

So I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that the state your wife is job hunting in has "shall issue" somewhere in it's CCW laws? :D

yellowfin
01-13-2009, 1:50 PM
We've narrowed down the list of locations to making sure that it's nowhere unfriendly to carry rights, that's for sure.

grywlfbg
01-14-2009, 10:18 PM
What's the word on camera phones? I don't need to carry a gun into SF but as I'm technically working tomorrow I need a phone. It will be of course switched off for the hearing but I need it with me. Only problem is it's an iPhone which has a camera. Any word on whether I can carry it in or if I can check it with the Marshals?

I was supposed to have jury duty tomorrow but I just checked on line and I don't have to go! Can't make dinner but I'll be there for the arguments.


***EDIT*** Nevermind, found my answer in another thread. See you all tomorrow.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
01-15-2009, 8:10 AM
C-Span's schedule on their website shows "House Session" all day till 4:00, and C-Span2 with "Senate Session" all day till 7:30. C-Span3 is blank, but then again, that channel doesn't even show up on my tv listings.

Unless they change something at the last minute, which I wouldn't expect, it looks like it won't be live.

All the more reason to attend if you're able!

USN CHIEF
01-15-2009, 8:19 AM
C-Span's schedule on their website shows "House Session" all day till 4:00, and C-Span2 with "Senate Session" all day till 7:30. C-Span3 is blank, but then again, that channel doesn't even show up on my tv listings.

Unless they change something at the last minute, which I wouldn't expect, it looks like it won't be live.

All the more reason to attend if you're able!

Flack, I had cleared my schedule today just to watch that thing on C-Span. Will someone be able to post on Cal Guns with any updates while this thing is going on?

jacques
01-15-2009, 9:03 AM
I am sure someone will start a thread. I was hoping the same thing.

rbgaynor
01-15-2009, 9:10 AM
I've been watching the C-Span schedule but so far nothing. Here's a direct link to the schedule:

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=schedule

Times are EST, so our Nordyke would be about 4:30 on this schedule. The schedule for C-Span 2 is still pretty open in the afternoon.

sorensen440
01-15-2009, 9:12 AM
Times are EST, so our Nordyke would be about 4:30 on this schedule. The schedule for C-Span 2 is still pretty open in the afternoon.

that's if they go live

rbgaynor
01-15-2009, 9:19 AM
that's if they go live

Good point, they could always run it delayed at 3AM. Sigh. Well, if they do at least we'll have the first hand reports and analysis from those Calguners who were able to attend.

HowardW56
01-15-2009, 9:53 AM
Good point, they could always run it delayed at 3AM. Sigh. Well, if they do at least we'll have the first hand reports and analysis from those Calguners who were able to attend.

The courts order permits C-span to videotape the arguements for broadcast at a later date....

hoffmang
01-15-2009, 10:32 AM
So it looks like C-SPAN will not be live. Thanks HowardW.

Also, the court is currently allowing folks in. Some have taken a seat in Courtroom 3 already.

-Gene

IGOTDIRT4U
01-15-2009, 10:35 AM
So it looks like C-SPAN will not be live. Thanks HowardW.

Also, the court is currently allowing folks in. Some have taken a seat in Courtroom 3 already.

-Gene

We'd appreciate live updates, please! Thanks to all that could make it.

jacques
01-15-2009, 10:53 AM
So it looks like C-SPAN will not be live. Thanks HowardW.

Also, the court is currently allowing folks in. Some have taken a seat in Courtroom 3 already.

-Gene

Good turn out?

6172crew
01-15-2009, 10:58 AM
C you guys there in a few hours, Im waiting fro my roomate to get off work then we hit the road.:cool:

hoffmang
01-15-2009, 11:08 AM
Good turn out?

Dunno yet. I'm making sure our side's counsels are on time and in place so I will not get there until just before we start.

-Gene

GarandFan
01-15-2009, 11:36 AM
Hello from Chicago. Wish I would be there for the orals, but am glad the turnout's anticipated to be good.

It's 5 below zero here, but even so, the little birds are chirping "3-0 for incorporation" ...

grywlfbg
01-15-2009, 11:52 AM
Gonna grab a bite to eat and jump on BART. See everyone in a few.

steadyrock
01-15-2009, 11:59 AM
We'd appreciate live updates, please! Thanks to all that could make it.

Very much. Will anybody be liveblogging this or will there be an update stream available anywhere? I'd like to follow even though I cannot attend, and I know others in free states that would like to as well.

When is the C-SPAN coverage going to air?

secretasianman
01-15-2009, 12:15 PM
I have no idea how things work... will we get a decision today?

aileron
01-15-2009, 12:19 PM
No..... They're hearing oral arguments today; Decision is probably months away. Some legal types will come by and spell it out better then I could hope to answer.

I'm dying for a place to get updates, hope someone has an iphone and can update this thread. ;) Probably take their phones away.

RRangel
01-15-2009, 12:19 PM
I have no idea how things work... will we get a decision today?

It's going to take months. What's happening today are the oral arguments. Stay tuned.

jacques
01-15-2009, 1:00 PM
The judges comments, questons, input can be an indicator of which way they are leaning sometimes. Tearing apart the other sides arguements, also.

nobody_special
01-15-2009, 1:03 PM
Wish I were there... is anyone going to be taking notes?

USN CHIEF
01-15-2009, 1:57 PM
any updates? Did the court room get packed?

chris
01-15-2009, 2:02 PM
great to have an update on the case. i guess we are closer to a verdict?

Ducman
01-15-2009, 2:05 PM
standing by.......

Theseus
01-15-2009, 2:09 PM
Wouldn't it b nice if they heard the arguments and rendered a ruling then and there...Haha...I can dream...

Sugar plums dancing....la la la la la...

Bowser
01-15-2009, 2:11 PM
I hope someone records it and puts it on youtube.

tombinghamthegreat
01-15-2009, 2:26 PM
I hope someone records it and puts it on youtube.

+1 that. Youtube it.

rhunter
01-15-2009, 2:30 PM
Wish I were there... is anyone going to be taking notes?

I work across the street. I was in the 2nd overflow room that had about 80 to 100. The actual room was full from what I hear. Not sure of the 3rd overflow on the first floor. I did see a couple of proclaimed cal-gunners recording.

Roger

unusedusername
01-15-2009, 2:32 PM
Oral arguments just finished. The judges spent some time grilling the county on how they would argue with the assumption that they rule in favor of incorperation.

There was also quite some laughter when the county tried to explain that it is perfectly reasonable to hold a gun show with no guns present.

Also, I was in the main room. It was packed with calgunners

yellowfin
01-15-2009, 2:36 PM
There was also quite some laughter when the county tried to explain that it is perfectly reasonable to hold a gun show with no guns present.
How did that go over with the judges?

6172crew
01-15-2009, 2:36 PM
Oral arguments just finished. The judges spent some time grilling the county on how they would argue with the assumption that they rule in favor of incorperation.

There was also quite some laughter when the county tried to explain that it is perfectly reasonable to hold a gun show with no guns present.

Also, I was in the main room. It was packed with calgunners

Am I to take this as the judges sounded in favor of incorparation?

rrr70
01-15-2009, 2:37 PM
There was also quite some laughter when the county tried to explain that it is perfectly reasonable to hold a gun show with no guns present.


LOL

Muzz
01-15-2009, 2:38 PM
C'mon, c'mon, details already!!!

Saigon1965
01-15-2009, 2:42 PM
Yes - Start blabbing you guys -

HowardW56
01-15-2009, 2:47 PM
Yes - Start blabbing you guys -

Please....

USN CHIEF
01-15-2009, 2:48 PM
Man, I would love to see that piece where everyone started laughing. I would love to see the Judges expression too. Come on, someone post with your black berries or something.

tmuller
01-15-2009, 3:01 PM
Very interested...

:lurk5:

_Odin_
01-15-2009, 3:05 PM
Wow........ A "Gun SHOW" without guns... what are they supposed to show at said show? Pictures of guns??

That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. I hope the guy wasn't serious when he said it.

Saigon1965
01-15-2009, 3:07 PM
As a heart attack - That's why we have Nordyke -

Wow........ A "Gun SHOW" without guns... what are they supposed to show at said show? Pictures of guns??

That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. I hope the guy wasn't serious when he said it.

rrr70
01-15-2009, 3:07 PM
Can we have Victoria's Secret show without Victoria's Secret?:D
What an idiot.

1BigPea
01-15-2009, 3:08 PM
:drool5: I can't wait for some details. :drool5:

HowardW56
01-15-2009, 3:14 PM
:drool5: I can't wait for some details. :drool5:

We are all waiting, some more patiently than others...

1BigPea
01-15-2009, 3:23 PM
We are all waiting, some more patiently than others...

What are you insinuating here? That I’m being impatient?

unusedusername
01-15-2009, 3:26 PM
Sorry for the short post there. It was made from a cell phone on the Bart platform.

I think (in my extremely not well legally versed opinion) that we have at least 2 of the three judges in favor of incorperation. The third judge really did not say much, so it's hard to tell on that one. All three judges thought the "gun show with no guns present" comment warrented laughter, so that is a good thing. The judge that was teleconfrenced in definately appeared to be on our side, as he asked a bunch of what looked like softball questions to the councel on the side of Nordyke.

I can report that C-span was definately there recording. The cspan people ere quite busy, so I didn't bug them as to when it will air.

Overall, I say it went quite well (again, in my not legally trained opinion). I'll post more when I get home to my computer that has a real keyboard....

grammaton76
01-15-2009, 3:29 PM
Guys, bear in mind that folks like Gene are probably in the courtroom. This means they have to have their cellphones off and can't go blogging about it in realtime.

...folks in the overflow rooms may or may not be so constrained.

Regardless, this is an exciting time.

jacques
01-15-2009, 3:29 PM
Can we have Victoria's Secret show without Victoria's Secret?:D
What an idiot.

Don't you get that every week in the mail? :D

nobody_special
01-15-2009, 3:32 PM
Thanks unusedusername... that sounds very encouraging. :D

MindBuilder
01-15-2009, 3:36 PM
SO they can say with a straight face that you can have a gun show with no guns. I hope that drove home the point to the judges that they will say ANYTHING to twist the meaning of the constitution.

gcvt
01-15-2009, 3:40 PM
Boats and RVs can be dangerous too. We need boat and RV shows with NO boats and no RVs! :willy_nilly:

pullnshoot25
01-15-2009, 3:44 PM
Dude, I AM SO EXCITED ABOUT THIS I AM READY TO CRAP MYSELF! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Gun show without guns! That is farking HILARIOUS!

I can't wait to see what hoffmang has to say about this!

yellowfin
01-15-2009, 4:11 PM
I guess the opposition's lawyers should get a paycheck with no dollars for that arguement. According to their logic, that would be sufficient for them.

Kid Stanislaus
01-15-2009, 4:11 PM
Wow........ A "Gun SHOW" without guns... what are they supposed to show at said show? Pictures of guns??

That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. I hope the guy wasn't serious when he said it.


How about a flower show without flowers or a dog show without dogs?!

HowardW56
01-15-2009, 4:13 PM
What are you insinuating here? That I’m being impatient?

Maybe...

HowardW56
01-15-2009, 4:15 PM
I guess the opposition's lawyers should get a paycheck with no dollars present on it.

This is California, they may get a check with no dollars in the bank to back it up...

tiki
01-15-2009, 4:19 PM
I vote for a legislature with no legislators in it.

blahblah
01-15-2009, 4:21 PM
(Crossposting my remarks from http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137800&page=12)

Just got back from the proceedings. It was interesting to see the judicial process, and the courthouse itself was impressive.

The judge's questioning of both attorneys was thoughtful, and both attorney's responded adeptly. The plaintiff was well-prepared and responded well to all questions. The defendant got slightly flustered at one point as he seemed to be cornered by his own argument. And at another point he provoked some slight mockery from one of the judges who said, "I'm not sure how you can have gun shows without the showing of guns," (not a verbatim quote) which elicited laughter from the gallery.

Having no experience with trials like this, I cannot venture to reliably predict the outcome, but going only by what I witnessed I would say that it appears the plaintiffs ("us") have a pretty good shot of winning on the point of the suit regarding the prohibition of gun shows. On the broader objective of attaining incorporation for the Heller decision to the state, I would say it appears there were significant hurdles to overcome in making that case to the judges' satisfaction.

That's not to say that incorporation shouldn't be applied or can't be in other trials, but in this case, regarding gun shows on county property, there were significant points in the arguments where it appeared that this case simply may not closely enough hit upon the legal territory addressed by Heller to be able to draw a conclusive connection and apply that case here. Nonetheless, the attorney for the plaintiffs attempted to make the most persuasive arguments to that end that I could imagine based on the facts in the case.

We'll see!

Thanks to the CalGunners for getting the word out on this and organizing our mass presence. We filled the main courtroom and the overflow courtroom. I don't believe anyone overflowed to the cafeteria. I would estimate the total turnout was around 60.

blahblah
01-15-2009, 4:25 PM
To clarify the context of the "gun shows with no showing of guns" remark, which was definitely the highlight of the hearing, that sarcastic inquisition was made by one of the judge's in response to the tap dancing logic that the defendant's attorney was trying to use to explain that gun shows were not in fact banned. After the brief chuckles by all subsided, the attorney's response was, "Point taken."

Also, ditto what unusedusername said about the judge who was teleconferenced in. His questions seemed designed to elicit arguments to strengthen the plaintiff's case, and I would say that judge seemed most obviously leaning the plaintiff's way. The other two were pretty tough on both attorneys I thought.

pullnshoot25
01-15-2009, 4:42 PM
When is this going to be on C-Span? I am so watching it!

jb7706
01-15-2009, 4:56 PM
When is this going to be on C-Span? I am so watching it!

I emailed them today to find out. Dunno if I will get any response, but will post if I do.

odysseus
01-15-2009, 4:56 PM
Man, I would love to see that piece where everyone started laughing. I would love to see the Judges expression too. Come on, someone post with your black berries or something.

I was in the main room, and it was a good chuckle in regards to one of the Judges pondering to the attorney representing Alameda county on how having no guns at a gun show (where people buy and sell) works? He said it with a little smile and some sarcasm.

It was a pleasure to be a part of this, my first outing with Calguns members, and show support for Nordyke's position. I found the parts where the Judges bantered both sides on whether incorporation - and this would be historic precedent setting - is even valid for this case to be reviewed, pretty pointed. I think they really do want to step out on this with Heller, all be it to the list of reasons why from Alameda's position it should not be. That guy had to dance a little.

.

Paladin
01-15-2009, 5:00 PM
Oral arguments just finished. The judges spent some time grilling the county on how they would argue with the assumption that they rule in favor of incorperation.Can't wait until CGN/CGF's alpha-dogs give us their take on the orals, when we should expect the circuit's decision, and what the next steps are for our side.

Hang on to your hats, LOC here we come! ;) (ETA: I've changed my avatar in anticipation of LOC.)

There was also quite some laughter when the county tried to explain that it is perfectly reasonable to hold a gun show with no guns present.Too funny. Reminds me of Heller when Scalia or Roberts said re gun locks: Wait a minute. So someone is breaking into my house at 3 in the morning and I'm to turn on my nightstand light, grab my reading glasses, . . . . :D

Also, I was in the main room. It was packed with calgunnersGlad there was a good turnout. Wish I could have been there. I guess C-SPAN will be my consolation prize.

Window_Seat
01-15-2009, 5:23 PM
Did C-SPAN actually televise it for later viewing, or was it just audio recorded? Either way, I'd love to know when I can watch/hear it (I had to be in the hospital today).:mad:

Hunter
01-15-2009, 6:18 PM
.... I would estimate the total turnout was around 60.
I counted 47 folks in the overflow room by itself. I'm sure the main court had more.

SwissFluCase
01-15-2009, 6:59 PM
There were six of us in the cafeteria. The lady from the Brady Campaign was there too. I haven't seen someone so unhappy for a long time. Poor thing, it must be hard dedicating your life to something that isn't right. She needs to join the winning side instead!

All in all, it seemed to go very well.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

HowardW56
01-15-2009, 7:03 PM
There were six of us in the cafeteria. The lady from the Brady Campaign was there too. I haven't seen someone so unhappy for a long time. Poor thing, it must be hard dedicating your life to something that isn't right. She needs to join the winning side instead!

All in all, it seemed to go very well.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

How did you know she was from the Brady Campaign?

SwissFluCase
01-15-2009, 7:05 PM
How did you know she was from the Brady Campaign?

The Brady Campaign t-shirt she was wearing...;)

CSDGuy
01-15-2009, 7:06 PM
How did you know she was from the Brady Campaign?
Was she cheering for the Alameda County's lawyer???

SwissFluCase
01-15-2009, 7:07 PM
Was she cheering for the Alameda County's lawyer???

She was stone cold silent. She had a scowl on her face that looked like a clown smile upside down! She knew the county counsel was getting his butt kicked.

rrr70
01-15-2009, 7:07 PM
There were six of us in the cafeteria. The lady from the Brady Campaign was there too. I haven't seen someone so unhappy for a long time. Poor thing, it must be hard dedicating your life to something that isn't right. She needs to join the winning side instead!

All in all, it seemed to go very well.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Was she hot?:D

yellowfin
01-15-2009, 7:09 PM
Was she hot?:DThere is no variety of hot that can possibly cover up that particular fault with them.

HowardW56
01-15-2009, 7:10 PM
The Brady Campaign t-shirt she was wearing...;)


I wounder where I could get some of their logos printed on targets.... :D:59:

SwissFluCase
01-15-2009, 7:11 PM
Was she hot?:D

That would be a no. Too bad. I have taught a number of cute anti-gun chicks to shoot - and they aren't anti gun any more. :43:

HowardW56
01-15-2009, 7:12 PM
There is no variety of hot that can possibly cover up that particular fault with them.

+1,000,000,000,000 Or was that the national debt? :confused:

SwissFluCase
01-15-2009, 7:14 PM
There is no variety of hot that can possibly cover up that particular fault with them.

I knew a woman about 15 years ago who was smoking hot, and seethingly anti-gun, unwilling to change. Wouldn't go near that. Most people grow out of gun hating as they learn more about the world, though.

Also... At one point one of the judges asked the county counsel if the 2nd Amandment right to own a gun implies the right to buy a gun. It was funny watching the county counsel try to deny that one...

Decoligny
01-15-2009, 7:43 PM
Was she hot?:D

That's like asking if the girl with AIDS, bubonic plague and leprosy is hot. :puke:

kdm
01-15-2009, 7:52 PM
Yeah, remember...she might be hot, but eventually you're gonna have to talk to her.

Annie Oakley
01-15-2009, 8:03 PM
There were six of us in the cafeteria. The lady from the Brady Campaign was there too. I haven't seen someone so unhappy for a long time. Poor thing, it must be hard dedicating your life to something that isn't right. She needs to join the winning side instead!

All in all, it seemed to go very well.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

OMG, six ambassadors from the Calguns community, and no one was a gentleman and extended the hand of friendship to her ?

Let's see...hm, someone said this once about something else

EPIC FAIL :no: That's so sad.

recshooter
01-15-2009, 8:10 PM
Any pics of said hottie fellas?

Couldn't make it due to school, but thanks to all who went BTW.

SwissFluCase
01-15-2009, 8:13 PM
I did give her a friendly smile when she came in the room (late), but she only gave icy looks back. Believe me, I have been involved in political projects for a while, and there is always a chance you can win someone over to your side.

Wasn't Paxton Quigley part of the Brady Bunch before she saw the light?

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Annie Oakley
01-15-2009, 8:31 PM
The smile was a start. Her "icy looks" was probably the same look we would have had if we didn't think things were going our way. I think we should empathize with them and acknowledge that people like her have been given disinformation. If we extend the olive branch to people like her who are in essence used as pawns to spread the propaganda, we can show people like her that gun owners aren't the evil violent people that the Brady's make us out to be. Unfortunately, we only get one chance to make a good impression.

On a side note, I visited the Brady website, and so far the only thing they have posted is the docket information, nothing more.

N6ATF
01-15-2009, 8:55 PM
Was this a cafeteria that serves anything or just a bunch of tables to bring your own food to eat on? I might have asked her if she wanted something to eat/drink. And then try to get her to take off her Brady shirt and throw on a Calguns tee.

SwissFluCase
01-15-2009, 9:42 PM
Annie Oakley,

I agree with you 100%. I am not a lawyer, nor do I have the guts to do the Unloaded Open Carry thing, but I do consider myself a good host and social planner. In that line, I have made it a point to bring new people to the range, or bring people who had negative experiences being taught how to shoot by the unduly "macho" crowd. That is what I can do to help RKBA.

On that note... I didn't get a chance to see the CSPAN people, but I would have *loved* to invite them to a range day.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Annie Oakley
01-15-2009, 9:56 PM
Annie Oakley,

I agree with you 100%. I am not a lawyer, nor do I have the guts to do the Unloaded Open Carry thing, but I do consider myself a good host and social planner. In that line, I have made it a point to bring new people to the range, or bring people who had negative experiences being taught how to shoot by the unduly "macho" crowd. That is what I can do to help RKBA.

On that note... I didn't get a chance to see the CSPAN people, but I would have *loved* to invite them to a range day.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

That would have been a good thing.

I'm sorry if it seems like I was chastising you for not making the effort. That wasn't my intention. But it does seem like a missed opportunity to hold out the hand of friendship to someone who views us as her enemy.

I just finished listening to the recording, and I downloaded it so that I can make it available to others who want it. OMG, I could almost see what's his name seething as everyone was laughing at him. Anyway, it was interesting, but the judges certainly were putting on their poker faces while listening and asking questions. Two things that I noted was the soon to be famous comment about having a gun show without guns, and the fact that history of gun ownership was brought up. I hope that those two things are indicative of a positive outcome. I would also say that the fact that the Scottish games were brought into the argument is a good thing. The one time that I went there, they were not only selling firearms, but they also sold swords, knives, and just about any pointy weapon that you can imagine. They also mentioned that weapons were restricted to reenactors which isn't true. In fact, I saw adults and teens with swords and knives, so I thought the attorney for Alameda county wasn't being totally honest when talking about weapons at the fair.

SwissFluCase
01-15-2009, 10:05 PM
If I remember correctly, the circuit court that heard Heller had a panel of judges that also sounded like they were going to rule for us, then they turned around and ruled against Heller. You never know. I'm really not worried in this case, though. We *will* get what we want, sooner or later.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

tiki
01-15-2009, 10:05 PM
The part that I felt the best about was when the county attorney was asked what if the D.C. ordinance, a complete ban on firearms, existed here in California. That made me feel like the judge was saying, if its unconstitutional in D.C., shouldn't it be unconstitutional here?

sn0rky
01-15-2009, 10:19 PM
I'm really not worried in this case, though. We *will* get what we want, sooner or later.

we can always riot, like the folks in oakland. :rolleyes:

trinydex
01-15-2009, 10:28 PM
That would be a no. Too bad. I have taught a number of cute anti-gun chicks to shoot - and they aren't anti gun any more. :43:

we should name a movement after that

bwiese
01-15-2009, 11:18 PM
Was she cheering for the Alameda County's lawyer???

Alameda actually had an LCAV assistant at their table, the gal in "UPS brown" outfit.

FreedomIsNotFree
01-15-2009, 11:25 PM
Just got done listening to the audio...

WAY TO GO DON!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
If Don said it could be 60-90 days until a decision comes back, then we may be planning a celebration dinner in 60-90 days. :party:

oaklander
01-15-2009, 11:25 PM
All the LCAV people left VERY quickly after the orals. A reporter from the Daily Journal was there looking for them, and could not find a single one.

That's the difference.

They are doing it to get "pro bono" hours, we are doing it because we live and breath gun rights.

FreedomIsNotFree
01-15-2009, 11:31 PM
Can someone please address the attitudes outside the court before and after the oral arguments? I recall the atmosphere outside SCOTUS when they heard Heller was lively with folks from both sides...curious there was anything similar.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
01-15-2009, 11:32 PM
Can someone please address the attitudes outside the court before and after the oral arguments? I recall the atmosphere outside SCOTUS when they heard Heller was lively with folks from both sides...curious there was anything similar.

It was a very upbeat, positive attitude, with clapping and cheering and group photos.

sorensen440
01-15-2009, 11:33 PM
Can someone please address the attitudes outside the court before and after the oral arguments? I recall the atmosphere outside SCOTUS when they heard Heller was lively with folks from both sides...curious there was anything similar.

Cautious optimism is how experimentalist put it and I agree

FreedomIsNotFree
01-15-2009, 11:35 PM
Were there any Brady folks making themselves known? Folks holding up banners..etc..etc.?

sorensen440
01-15-2009, 11:35 PM
Were there any Brady folks making themselves known? Folks holding up banners..etc..etc.?

not a single one

Annie Oakley
01-15-2009, 11:38 PM
Swissflucase said that there was one Brady girl in the cafeteria, but none of the Calgunners spoke to her.

bwiese
01-15-2009, 11:40 PM
Were there any Brady folks making themselves known? Folks holding up banners..etc..etc.?

Other than the 5 or 6 people there (LCAV w/maybe a Brady or two) no.

"UPS Brown" lady from LCAV (forget her name) at Alameda's table looked very morose.

They skeedaddled quickly after the courtroom closed.

LCAV's Juliet Leftwich was discussing gunlaws in an MCLE class and was pretty dejected post-Heller. Appears they can formulate worst-case 'holding actions' but that's about it, and will rely on things like DC taxpayers to keep Alan Gura in a nice vehicle.

BTW, the fight for RKBA in CA will also include new fights in DC.

FreedomIsNotFree
01-15-2009, 11:42 PM
I wonder, are the Brady's ignorant to the possible implications of Nordyke or have they been demoralized by the Heller decision?

I like the fact that we are gaining in numbers, moral and are on the rise while our enemy appears less and less relevant.

sorensen440
01-15-2009, 11:43 PM
So when the decision is finally made be it 60-90 days or a year how will we find out ?

sorensen440
01-15-2009, 11:43 PM
I wonder, are the Brady's ignorant to the possible implications of Nordyke or have they been demoralized by the Heller decision?

I like the fact that we are gaining in numbers, moral and are on the rise while our enemy appears less and less relevant.

I suspect they know they are going to lose on this one

doughboy334
01-15-2009, 11:50 PM
very nice to meet y'all. my dinner table rocked

sorensen440
01-15-2009, 11:51 PM
very nice to meet y'all. my dinner table rocked

I agree

blahblah
01-15-2009, 11:53 PM
One of my favorite parts today was when the County attorney offered that it would be fine for gun shows to allow the sale of handguns so long as they didn't do it on county property but did it "immediately adjacent" to it. I can just imagine people leaving the gun show to retire to a van parked on the street nearby to effect a firearms sale. Really?!?! They find this idea preferable to a safely organized and secured gun show?

blahblah
01-15-2009, 11:59 PM
Does anyone know if and where the group pictures from the courthouse will be posted?

Also, the audio that someone mentioned... where can that be downloaded?

bwiese
01-16-2009, 12:04 AM
One of my favorite parts today was when the County attorney offered that it would be fine for gun shows to allow the sale of handguns so long as they didn't do it on county property but did it "immediately adjacent" to it. I can just imagine people leaving the gun show to retire to a van parked on the street nearby to effect a firearms sale. Really?!?! They find this idea preferable to a safely organized and secured gun show?

Yes, that was laughable. In fact transactions in gunshow parking lots are illegal (even if the transfer were otherwise legal, like a C&R rifle transfer).

nick
01-16-2009, 12:08 AM
I wonder, are the Brady's ignorant to the possible implications of Nordyke or have they been demoralized by the Heller decision?

I like the fact that we are gaining in numbers, moral and are on the rise while our enemy appears less and less relevant.

Or they're busy "working with the new administration", as they put it.

nick
01-16-2009, 12:10 AM
Yes, that was laughable. In fact transactions in gunshow parking lots are illegal (even if the transfer were otherwise legal, like a C&R rifle transfer).

Only in gun show parking lots, or would that apply to, say, gun stores parking lots, or any other parking lots?

N6ATF
01-16-2009, 12:59 AM
Does anyone know if and where the group pictures from the courthouse will be posted?

Also, the audio that someone mentioned... where can that be downloaded?

In the other thread about this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=145180)... http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/media/2009/01/15/07-15763.wma

Annie Oakley
01-16-2009, 7:45 AM
Good Morning guys.

It's the day after Nordyke, and I found this at the NRA website.



http://cbs5.com/localwire/22.0.html?type=bcn&item=GUN-SHOW-ARGUMENTS-baglm

SF: APPEALS COURT HEARS CHALLENGE TO BAN ON GUN SHOWS AT ALAMEDA COUNTY FAIR

SAN FRANCISCO (BCN)

A long-running challenge to Alameda County's ban on gun shows at the annual county fair in Pleasanton was back before a federal appeals court in San Francisco today.

Gun show promoters Russell and Sallie Nordyke, of Willows in Glenn County, claim the ban violates their constitutional First Amendment right of free speech and their Second Amendment right to bear arms.

Their lawyer, Donald Kilmer, told the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, "We are asking to be allowed to hold the traditionally law-abiding gun shows held in the country fair for 10 years."

A three-judge panel took the case under submission after hearing an hour of arguments and will issue a written ruling at a later date.

The ban was passed by the Alameda County Board of Supervisors in 1999, in the wake of a shooting at the 1998 fair in which eight people were injured.

The ordinance prohibits most gun possession on county property, with certain exceptions including possession by peace officers. The Nordykes say the effect of the law is to ban gun shows at the fair.

The Nordykes sued the county in federal court in San Francisco in 1999 and are currently appealing trial court rulings that upheld the law.

The case has already been to the California Supreme Court, which ruled in 2002 that the county measure was not pre-empted by state law, and to the 9th Circuit in an earlier round of arguments in 2003.

In 2003, the 9th Circuit said the ban didn't violate the Second Amendment, because, according to the court, the amendment protected only a collective state right and not an individual right to bear arms.

But that reasoning was rejected in a decision in which the U.S. Supreme Court said last year that the Second Amendment applies to individuals. The ruling, known as the Heller case, struck down a Washington, D.C., ban on handgun possession.

The Nordykes say the Heller decision means the Alameda County law should also be overturned.

But Peter Pierce, a lawyer for the county, argued that the Supreme Court ruling left room for local regulations of county property and for gun bans in "sensitive places" such as the fairgrounds.

"The states have historically regulated safety with respect to their own property," Pierce contended.

The Nordykes, whose gun show company is called TS Trade Shows, began presenting shows at the Alameda County fair in 1991.

It just seems like such a stretch to outlaw a legal activity because of the actions of a criminal in a totally unrelated activity. Isn't it ironic though, that a government organized function was when the crime occurred, as opposed to the privately organized function that worked for 10 years without any incidents. Yet the government sees fit to close down the private function because of a crime during a government organized function. Very odd.

Can'thavenuthingood
01-16-2009, 7:55 AM
I wonder what "sensitive places" are in that group with the fairgrounds?

Also, how is Peter Bierce defining 'sensitive'?
All government property?
Schools, hospitals and street corners?

Must be wherever people congregate.

Vick

jacques
01-16-2009, 8:14 AM
I wonder what "sensitive places" are in that group with the fairgrounds?

Also, how is Peter Bierce defining 'sensitive'?
All government property?
Schools, hospitals and street corners?

Must be wherever people congregate.

Vick

Your living room, your bedroom, your bathroom......their definition will be a far cry from what is reasonable. Guaranteed.

RRangel
01-16-2009, 8:49 AM
After listening it seems very clear that the Alameda councils argument that they are not banning gun shows is very disingenuous. How was that not the intent of their law? I fail to see how there is any other way around it, or they think people are stupid. It's like they are backtracking, which to me is a good sign. It's the same as Irwin Nowick's claim that California really doesn't ban "assault weapons", that it just regulates them. We all know what a load of crock that argument is.

Theseus
01-16-2009, 9:35 AM
I never really looked, but they banned gun shows because of a shooting at a rock concert?

"That is like attacking Mexico for the bombing at Pearl Harbor."

sorensen440
01-16-2009, 10:34 AM
I never really looked, but they banned gun shows because of a shooting at a rock concert?

"That is like attacking Mexico for the bombing at Pearl Harbor."

They used a shooting at the county fair (it was oakland day btw) to ban firearms on county property
They do however have an exception for the Scottish games...

bulgron
01-16-2009, 10:42 AM
I just listened to the oral arguments. It seems to me that there's plenty of room for the court to wiggle out from under incorporation if they want to. As is always the case with courts, it's impossible to tell what they want to do until they actually issue their decision. In the meantime, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Davidwhitewolf
01-16-2009, 11:50 AM
Back to the subject in the header: for everyone's info I spoke with the CSPAN guys right after the oral arguments concluded; they were stuffing the tape into a FedEx envelope addressed to somebody at CSPAN (not Brian Lamb, LOL) in D.C.

I asked them when it would air and they said definitely this weekend, check the schedule.

The guy running the actual video was saying that it went great, everything was perfect, etc., so hopefully it'll be a very good video experience.

yellowfin
01-16-2009, 11:55 AM
I feel like my geek points just quadrupled by hopping onto CSPAN's site to check the programming list.

blahblah
01-16-2009, 1:27 PM
I wonder what "sensitive places" are in that group with the fairgrounds?

Also, how is Peter Bierce defining 'sensitive'?
All government property?
Schools, hospitals and street corners?

Must be wherever people congregate.

Vick

This was an area of questioning actually that the judges put to the county's attorney. In my view, he didn't do a very convincing job of showing that the country fairgrounds were "sensitive."

Theseus
01-16-2009, 1:35 PM
He is arguing the county grounds are sensitive because there was a shooting there. This argument doesn't hold much water in my opinion.

IGOTDIRT4U
01-16-2009, 2:45 PM
He is arguing the county grounds are sensitive because there was a shooting there. This argument doesn't hold much water in my opinion.

Correct. Unless he can prove that the shooting was the only place there was a shooting on County property, and that there is a nexus between that location, the gun show and the shooting, no such luck.

7x57
01-16-2009, 3:21 PM
All the LCAV people left VERY quickly after the orals. A reporter from the Daily Journal was there looking for them, and could not find a single one.

That's the difference.

They are doing it to get "pro bono" hours, we are doing it because we live and breath gun rights.

Are you sure it was just to quit when there was no more time to put in, or simply because they did *not* want to be interviewed without having any plausible spin ready? It would have been awful hard to spin that as a win for the county, even a lawyer would be really earning his retainer for doing that. If I had that job, I'd get out of Dodge fast too, on the theory that just about any interview would be worse than a discreet silence.

I'm probably wrong, however, because I have this irrational desire to be accurate. I'm sure a *real* spinmeister would manage.

7x57

high_revs
01-16-2009, 3:39 PM
edit...

got the audio... d/l'ing it right now.

N6ATF
01-17-2009, 1:06 AM
He is arguing the county grounds are sensitive because there was a shooting there. This argument doesn't hold much water in my opinion.

It's tangentially emotionally sensitive. Makes about as much sense as not having portable toilets anymore because someone lit up inside one and ignited the methane.

nooner
01-17-2009, 1:36 AM
I'd like to DVR it. Curious of the air date and time.

gunsmith
01-17-2009, 2:28 AM
Correct. Unless he can prove that the shooting was the only place there was a shooting on County property, and that there is a nexus between that location, the gun show and the shooting, no such luck.
That shooting didn't happen at a gun show either, afaik it was some kind of carnival, two gang bangers with a beef.

hoffmang
01-17-2009, 10:22 AM
I'd like to DVR it. Curious of the air date and time.

I'm watching the schedule. I think we're getting delayed airing due to Inauguration weekend. Call it sweeps for C-SPAN.

-Gene

Sutcliffe
01-18-2009, 9:11 AM
Alameda County says you can have your gunshow without any guns.
They do allow living history reenactors to possess firearms on the same property. If the fairgrounds are such a sensitive area then why the exemption for the Scots? Seems indefensible to me.

nooner
01-21-2009, 3:11 PM
Any news when this is going to air?

hoffmang
01-21-2009, 4:16 PM
Just found out when we're airing.

C-SPAN will be airing Nordyke at 4PM Pacific time on Saturday 1/24 on C-SPAN 1.

-Gene

Bowser
01-21-2009, 6:05 PM
Just found out when we're airing.

C-SPAN will be airing Nordyke at 4PM Pacific time on Saturday 1/24 on C-SPAN 1.

-Gene

Someone's gotta tivo it or something and put it on youtube under a discreet title.

7x57
01-21-2009, 6:12 PM
Huh, interesting question--is there a copyright on federal court proceeding recordings? There might not be.

7x57

nooner
01-21-2009, 7:55 PM
Just found out when we're airing.

C-SPAN will be airing Nordyke at 4PM Pacific time on Saturday 1/24 on C-SPAN 1.

-Gene
Sweet! Thanks! :D

N6ATF
01-21-2009, 11:19 PM
Someone's gotta tivo it or something and put it on youtube under a discreet title.

Computer DVR it, convert to DiVX AVI (good enough quality), Bittorrent.

Agh, it's 4 hours into the radio field day and during the NHL All-Star Game.

cousinkix1953
01-22-2009, 12:06 AM
Viva C-SPAN! We wouldn't know that a Democratic congressman is really the one, who called BATFE agents a bunch of jack-booted Amerikan fascists in the 1990s without their coverage on Capitol Hill. Listening to the news a month later, you would have believed that Wayne LaPierre was the source of those insults.

Brian Lamb's TV cameras have shown us the faces of our friends and enimies in Congress before. And they will do it again without a bunch of the mainstream media's propaganda inserted into the coverage...

ke6guj
01-22-2009, 1:02 AM
Computer DVR it, convert to DiVX AVI (good enough quality), Bittorrent.I have the PVR set to record it. I'm thinking it'll be about 1-1.5gig for the original digital capture from one of the QAM tuners or the Firewired STB. After that, it'll take a while to convert it. My rig is getting old. And we can see about making a torent for it

cousinkix1953
01-22-2009, 2:57 AM
Sweet! Thanks! :D

You sure about that? The Washington Journal (TV call in talk show) airs seven days a week between 4-7 AM. It might be on
C-SPAN 2 if you are lucky. Not likely on C-SPAN 2 on weekends either because this outlet is a 48 hour infomercial for the Bookseller's Industry. C-SPAN 3 is strictly a local DC cable channel not seen outside of the town...

ke6guj
01-22-2009, 11:05 AM
You sure about that? The Washington Journal (TV call in talk show) airs seven days a week between 4-7 AM.

look at Gene's post. He said PM, not AM. My PVR's EPG has CSPAN at 4-5PM on 1/24/09 listed as "America and the Courts" and a description of "The federal judiciary and the Supreme Court". That looks like it fits with what Gene said.

ke6guj
01-22-2009, 3:56 PM
when does the judge (s) make determination ? or did I miss it?

probably in 2-3 months, but there is no time limit.

Librarian
01-22-2009, 4:40 PM
when does the judge (s) make determination ? or did I miss it?

probably in 2-3 months, but there is no time limit.

Yes; Court's web site says 3 months to a year. Don Kilmer said he'd be surprised if it were much more than 3 months.