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weatherman
01-04-2009, 6:12 PM
What's up, people...

I did a search and found a lot of information on these two topics but at this point I am very serious about (more-or-less) demanding a concealed carry from Los Angeles. We live in a gated community and last night, one of our security officers was shot within the gates of our community. Needless to say, this got me thinking about my own situation and how I can protect myself from a similar situation. Our security guards are not armed and would be fairly useless if a "serious" problem were ever to occur. I personally don't feel one bit safer with them here.

I have heard that applying for a concealed weapons permit in L.A. County is perhaps the greatest act of futility on earth but at thist point, I feel as if it is a requirement if I am going to continue living here. I am a former military member with years, upon years of firearms experience. I shot "expert" multiple times while serving my country, so I know how to safely and effectively use a weapon. I have never been arrested for anything and I have even been authorized to a T.S. level clearance. I don't see any reason why I should be denied the right to carry a concealed weapon, so I am going to file the paperwork with the county. Next question: after the county denies my request (which, I assume is inevitable) who do I call to represent me in a lawsuit? Who are the best "2A Rights" lawyers in the area? At this point, even if it costs a few thousand dollars, it would be worth it.

Next question: until I can get the concealed carry permit, I have a few questions about the "open carry" laws. My greatest fear is that either myself or my girlfriend would be attacked while walking our dogs. Since it gets dark so early now, its impossible to get home from work, feed the dogs and walk them before the sun sets. My question is: If I "Open Carry" an unloaded pistol and my girlfriend carries a couple magazines, is that legal?

Please forgive my ignorance to these topics, or if I missed a similar topic when I searched. I appreciate any advice!!!

Codelphious
01-04-2009, 6:32 PM
Gated communities, security guards and the like are simply "peace of mind" factors, as you've come to discover.

Unfortuantely LA will not give you a CCW, unless, as your name implies, you're Dallas Raines from ABC 7 Los Angeles. No, it doesn't matter how much training, experience, etc, etc, you have.

As for unloaded open carry you're good to go. You can carry openly and your girlfriend can carry the magazines either open or concealed -- though beware that some jurisdictions make the assumption that magazine concealed = concealed weapon. Go figure :confused:

What was the name of that WWII movie where every other Russian soldier was given a rifle and every other was given a magazine?...

BitterVoter
01-04-2009, 6:43 PM
It also depends...if your city is an LA County and they have their own police force it is my understanding THEY can issue a CCW as well unless they waived the right...But it is my understanding that they can later choose to issue if enough pressure is exerted.

sargenv
01-04-2009, 6:47 PM
What was the name of that WWII movie where every other Russian soldier was given a rifle and every other was given a magazine?...

Enemy at the gates

weatherman
01-04-2009, 7:06 PM
It also depends...if your city is an LA County and they have their own police force it is my understanding THEY can issue a CCW as well unless they waived the right...

We're in Harbor City, which I think is covered by LAPD...

tombinghamthegreat
01-04-2009, 7:10 PM
As for unloaded open carry you're good to go. You can carry openly and your girlfriend can carry the magazines either open or concealed -- though beware that some jurisdictions make the assumption that magazine concealed = concealed weapon. Go figure :confused:


You do not need to have someone carry a mag, you can have ammo/gun on you as long as the ammo is not attached in a pistion to be fired according to people vs clark and PC 12025. That rule only really applies to the state capital. Also concealing a mag is a risk with IIRC People vs Hale and it only applies to handguns. You could also conceal long guns like OLL, kel tecks, shotguns or some Ak style rifle. Just have to be aware of the K-12 gun "free" zone meaning locking your guns up in this area.

hawk1
01-04-2009, 7:12 PM
No reason to repeat what the others have said, but do keep in mind, if you're walking your dogs etc.. on association grounds of the condos you may not be allowed to carry openly. They, the association, might have a policy in the CCR's about this. If not, call or better yet write your management company and ask if there is a policy.

weatherman
01-04-2009, 7:29 PM
You do not need to have someone carry a mag, you can have ammo/gun on you as long as the ammo is not attached in a pistion to be fired according to people vs clark and PC 12025. That rule only really applies to the state capital. Also concealing a mag is a risk with IIRC People vs Hale and it only applies to handguns. You could also conceal long guns like OLL, kel tecks, shotguns or some Ak style rifle.

Really?!?!?

Well, like I said, forgive my ignorance on this topic. :o

I have a shoulder harness for my 1911 that holds two mags. So, by this logic, it would be legal to carry the unloaded weapon and the two loaded mags in that harness, as long all of it is in plain sight... Correct?


Just have to be aware of the K-12 gun "free" zone meaning locking your guns up in this area.

Hmmm... There are some schools nearby. Is there any type of resource (like a map, or something) that lists the "gun-free" zones?

CHS
01-04-2009, 7:44 PM
I have a shoulder harness for my 1911 that holds two mags. So, by this logic, it would be legal to carry the unloaded weapon and the two loaded mags in that harness, as long all of it is in plain sight... Correct?


Correct. Check out: http://www.californiaopencarry.org/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf for the details.

LOW2000
01-04-2009, 7:49 PM
Yes, your shoulder holster should work, i'm guessing that the magazines are completely covered by the leather of the holster which may begin to enter gray area re: concealed or not, but otherwise it is ok. (i've asked the same question on where the line is drawn between concealed or not on pistol holsters with a flap as well and there is no answer)

For the "unarmed victim zone" all you need to know is that you cannot knowingly go within 1000ft of a K-12 school with a gun that is not in a locked container, or go on the actual grounds of a college or university.

dfletcher
01-04-2009, 7:56 PM
No reason to repeat what the others have said, but do keep in mind, if you're walking your dogs etc.. on association grounds of the condos you may not be allowed to carry openly. They, the association, might have a policy in the CCR's about this. If not, call or better yet write your management company and ask if there is a policy.

This is a very important point - were I to gamble, I'd wager that the OP will have less difficulty with LE than the folks who run his HOA. If there is not presently a prohibition they could adopt one. I'm sure there are some good folks involved, but as a group, I've never come across a more unhappy or pernicious lot of people as the ones who populate homeowners associations.

Kid Stanislaus
01-04-2009, 7:58 PM
I have heard that applying for a concealed weapons permit in L.A. County is perhaps the greatest act of futility on earth but at thist point, I feel as if it is a requirement if I am going to continue living here. I am a former military member with years, upon years of firearms experience. I shot "expert" multiple times while serving my country, so I know how to safely and effectively use a weapon. I have never been arrested for anything and I have even been authorized to a T.S. level clearance. I don't see any reason why I should be denied the right to carry a concealed weapon, so I am going to file the paperwork with the county. :rofl2:

abalone hunter
01-04-2009, 8:04 PM
I had a Game Warden tell me that if he came up on me while i was involved in outdoor things like fishing or hikeing and my gun was where he couldn't see it he would saw it is concealed even if it was on my side or in a sholder holster. I told my local Sheriff and got ac c w permit.

weatherman
01-04-2009, 8:05 PM
Yes, your shoulder holster should work, i'm guessing that the magazines are completely covered by the leather of the holster which may begin to enter gray area re: concealed or not, but otherwise it is ok. (i've asked the same question on where the line is drawn between concealed or not on pistol holsters with a flap as well and there is no answer)

It's a nylon setup that has two thin straps that go over the top of the mags. The majority of the magazine is covered in the pouches but they are plainly visible. As much as the gun would be, anyway...

For the "unarmed victim zone" all you need to know is that you cannot knowingly go within 1000ft of a K-12 school with a gun that is not in a locked container, or go on the actual grounds of a college or university.

Okay, so as long as I don't "know" this distance exactly, I assume I'm okay...

ZRX61
01-04-2009, 8:13 PM
Okay, so as long as I don't "know" this distance exactly, I assume I'm okay...
I think the only way to be 100% sure is to get a map & draw 1000ft circles around all the local schools...
For me it's easy, there's a school right across the dang street....

Decoligny
01-04-2009, 8:27 PM
I think the only way to be 100% sure is to get a map & draw 1000ft circles around all the local schools...
For me it's easy, there's a school right across the dang street....

This is what can get people into trouble. If you are in your own neighborhood, they you should reasonably know where the schools are.

1. If you are in an area where you don't know exactly where the schools are, and you wouldn't reasonable be expected to know, don't go getting yourself into trouble by carrying a map that proves that you do know.

2. On a map, most people would draw a 1,000 foot circle from the center of the school. This would be wrong as the law actually says "within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of the public or private school. So, you have to take into account the playground, football field, parking lot and anything else that makes up the huge (usually) rectangle that constitutes "school grounds. Your 1,000 feet start at the school property line.

frigginchi
01-04-2009, 8:40 PM
I wonder since you are behind a gate in a gated community you are allowed to carry it since you are on private property. You'd just have to put it away once you leave the gated community. HOA might have something to say about it though.

cmaynes
01-04-2009, 8:48 PM
to the OP-

Situational Awareness will be a better tool than a concealed weapon- as was stated, it is just about impossible to get a permit in most of LA County-

note- anyone with a CCW is running around in condition orange anyway- or they should be. Get a good knife (which is generally legal to conceal), and keep your eyes up.

And personally, open carry only works for me if I have my rifle as well.

hawk1
01-04-2009, 8:49 PM
I wonder since you are behind a gate in a gated community you are allowed to carry it since you are on private property. You'd just have to put it away once you leave the gated community. HOA might have something to say about it though.

He can only carry on private property (common areas) with the permission of the property owner. Thats why in my above post I suggested he checked with his homeowners association or CC&R's if it's ok to 'carry' firearms on their common grounds.
There is no issue he can legally carry, concealed or open, and loaded by the way, on his own property.

ZRX61
01-04-2009, 8:54 PM
1. If you are in an area where you don't know exactly where the schools are, and you wouldn't reasonable be expected to know, don't go getting yourself into trouble by carrying a map that proves that you do know.
Wasn't suggesting actually carrying the map, just use it for research purposes at home so you don't get your butt in a sling.


This would be wrong as the law actually says "within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of the public or private school. So, you have to take into account the playground, football field, parking lot and anything else that makes up the huge (usually) rectangle that constitutes "school grounds. Your 1,000 feet start at the school property line.
Yup, I realise that. School property line here starts about 40ft from the end of my driveway. I'm always careful about moving guns to & from the truck & NEVER do it while school is about to start or just got out (if the truck is in the driveway)... even more so since a couple of treehuggers bought the place next door.... :(

weatherman
01-04-2009, 8:55 PM
I think the only way to be 100% sure is to get a map & draw 1000ft circles around all the local schools...
For me it's easy, there's a school right across the dang street....

According to google, the nearest school is 0.9 miles away.

What about local ordinances? I've got a friend who's an LEO that I'm on the phone with right now and he's saying that a lot of local municipalities have regulations against carrying firearms openly. If a cop sees you, apparently you could get a misdemeanor.

Is that LEO FUD? To be fair, he's a cop in the Bay Area, so it could be different up there...

BitterVoter
01-04-2009, 9:54 PM
According to google, the nearest school is 0.9 miles away.

What about local ordinances? I've got a friend who's an LEO that I'm on the phone with right now and he's saying that a lot of local municipalities have regulations against carrying firearms openly. If a cop sees you, apparently you could get a misdemeanor.

Is that LEO FUD? To be fair, he's a cop in the Bay Area, so it could be different up there...

It is FUD. It should be understood that State preemption of the laws plays here. Since the State basically says where you can and can't carry and under what conditions it is quite arguable that the State intends to be the only say in the matter.

However, that does not mean that you can't or won't be arrested, only that you have a strong argument in court and could hold them liable for false arrest for enforcing a law that they had no power to create/enforce in the first place.

Normally I might suggest going to opencarry.org, but many of the same people are on this board and opencarry.org is too busy in other states to really care about us.

If you are ever in the South Pasadena area maybe we can have a beer and talk about it.

GuyW
01-04-2009, 10:05 PM
It is FUD. It should be understood that State preemption of the laws plays here. Since the State basically says where you can and can't carry and under what conditions it is quite arguable that the State intends to be the only say in the matter.


I've never read an analysis that concluded that local no-carry laws are preempted.

Until the 2nd is incorporated by the Courts, I think that that no-carry laws are not preempted.
.

glockman19
01-04-2009, 10:07 PM
I had a Game Warden tell me that if he came up on me while i was involved in outdoor things like fishing or hikeing and my gun was where he couldn't see it he would saw it is concealed even if it was on my side or in a sholder holster. I told my local Sheriff and got ac c w permit.

Not in LA County.

M. Sage
01-04-2009, 10:12 PM
I've never read an analysis that concluded that local no-carry laws are preempted.

Until the 2nd is incorporated by the Courts, I think that that no-carry laws are not preempted.
.

It's been tested in court that state gun laws trump and preempt local gun laws. That's how the handgun ban in SF got overturned - on the grounds that it was preempted by state gun law.

GuyW
01-04-2009, 10:17 PM
It's been tested in court that state gun laws trump and preempt local gun laws. That's how the handgun ban in SF got overturned - on the grounds that it was preempted by state gun law.

State laws only pre-emp local if "the field of regulation is fully occupied"....IIRC, legislation sometimes carries a specific finding or statement of intent to that end.

Given that local laws against carry existed at the time that the state increased its regulation (to today's laws), and that (for example) counties can specify where discharge of firearms is prohibited (and thus loaded carry prohibited), I'd say that evidence exists that the state hasn't fully occupied the field...
.

M. Sage
01-04-2009, 10:26 PM
The ability to restrict discharge and therefore loaded carry is written down in PC, IIRC. The state specifically gave the power to regulate that one to the local governments to some degree.

weatherman
01-04-2009, 10:33 PM
In thinking about this more, I think I'm going to change my residency.

I own property in Nor-Cal in a more "gun friendly" county. If I switch my residency to up there and get my permit (which they will likely grant me) then it's good throughout the whole state.

Isn't it great when the criminals have all the rights? :rolleyes:

MP301
01-04-2009, 10:42 PM
I do work for HOA's in Northen Ca and have not to this point been aware of any CC&R's that poertain directly to firearms. They have nuisance rules etc that they might try to use.

The worst thing that an HOA is gonna do to you for violating any of the rules is send you a letter, have a hearing and then depending on the outcome, asses a BS fine...usually $50 to $100.

If this happens, go to the hearing and explain the legality of Open unloaded carry, etc.

This would also be a good time, if you hgave not attended a board meeting already, to demand that the HOA hire a better quality ARMED security service. Having properly trained ARMED officers cuts most of the BS. I know this because its my specialty and currently provide this service. Unarmed security has its function, but human alarms are only as good as whomever responds to assist them and how long it takes for said responders to arrive.

Also, keep in mind that the HOA your in is private property, but you are one of the owners of this private property.

I would recommend against the shoulder holster because some PITA police officer can try to say that part of the gun was concealed under your arm, etc. You can get an RSR holster for a 1911 from CDNNSports.com for $!7 and a mag pouch for $9 and they are great quality.

My suggestion would be to start getting really involved with your HOA and conquer any problems from within. GO to the board meetings...you might be surprised how many other residents might be freaked out about your unarmed security getting shot. And just like in big politics, if you run into uninformed anti-gun folks on the board and you cant educate them, then remember that they are elected and can be replaced just like regular elected folks!

weatherman
01-04-2009, 10:57 PM
I do work for HOA's in Northen Ca and have not to this point been aware of any CC&R's that poertain directly to firearms. They have nuisance rules etc that they might try to use.

The worst thing that an HOA is gonna do to you for violating any of the rules is send you a letter, have a hearing and then depending on the outcome, asses a BS fine...usually $50 to $100.

If this happens, go to the hearing and explain the legality of Open unloaded carry, etc.

This would also be a good time, if you hgave not attended a board meeting already, to demand that the HOA hire a better quality ARMED security service. Having properly trained ARMED officers cuts most of the BS. I know this because its my specialty and currently provide this service. Unarmed security has its function, but human alarms are only as good as whomever responds to assist them and how long it takes for said responders to arrive.

Also, keep in mind that the HOA your in is private property, but you are one of the owners of this private property.

I would recommend against the shoulder holster because some PITA police officer can try to say that part of the gun was concealed under your arm, etc. You can get an RSR holster for a 1911 from CDNNSports.com for $!7 and a mag pouch for $9 and they are great quality.

My suggestion would be to start getting really involved with your HOA and conquer any problems from within. GO to the board meetings...you might be surprised how many other residents might be freaked out about your unarmed security getting shot. And just like in big politics, if you run into uninformed anti-gun folks on the board and you cant educate them, then remember that they are elected and can be replaced just like regular elected folks!

Hey man... I really appreciate this reply! The funny thing is that what you've said seems to be true in my case, as well. I've got my CC&Rs sitting right here and I've been going through them with a fine-tooth comb. There is nothing in here that says carrying guns is prohibited. The thing that sucks is that we used to have armed security. They went with these idiots to save money. What a bargain... :rolleyes:

We have honestly tried to get involved with our HOA and we warned them about numerous shortcomings with our current security staff. Back in July, myself and about a dozen of my neighbors raided the HOA meeting and demanded better security but our demands fell on deaf ears. Honestly, at this point, I hope someone sues our property management company. They're truly terrible... (Transpacific Management)

Honestly, there are a few too many cops out there right now and it's going to be that way for a while. I might start open-carrying in a few days but right now, "five-o" is all over my complex. I doubt they'll be in a very receptive mood to hear my "open carry" explanation after last night's shooting...

BitterVoter
01-04-2009, 11:12 PM
State laws only pre-emp local if "the field of regulation is fully occupied"....sometimes I think legislation carries a specific finding or statement of intent to that end.

Given that local laws against carry existed at the time that the state increased its regulation (to today's laws), and that (for example) counties can specify where discharge of firearms is prohibited (and thus loaded carry prohibited), I'd say that evidence exists that the state hasn't fully occupied the field...
.

You can view this section from the recent CPOA letter

Furthermore, we doubt that a local ordinance could be enacted to close this gap by, for instance, making it a violation of a city’s municipal code to carry an unloaded and unconcealed firearm in public. In this regard, please note Article XI, §7 of the California Constitution, which provides that:

A county or city may make and enforce within its limits all local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances and regulations not in conflict with general laws.

The California Supreme Court has identified three types of conflict that cause preemption of local legislation: A conflict exists if the local legislation duplicates, contradicts, or enters an area fully occupied by general law, either expressly or by legislative implication. Local legislation is contradictory to general law when it is inimical thereto. A local ordinance is preempted by a state statute only to the extent that the two conflict. Action Apartment Assn., Inc. v. City of Santa Monica, (2007) 41 Cal. 4th 1232. For a local ordinance to proscribe that which is allowed under State law would perforce be to contradict state law. Furthermore, given the extent of State regulation of dangerous weapons, it would seem apparent that the State has “fully occupied” this area by its general laws.


This should help shed some light on the issue.

CA_Libertarian
01-05-2009, 12:41 AM
I had a Game Warden tell me that if he came up on me while i was involved in outdoor things like fishing or hikeing and my gun was where he couldn't see it he would saw it is concealed even if it was on my side or in a sholder holster. I told my local Sheriff and got ac c w permit.

This is off topic, but I have seen citations on this forum (and others) about F&G code granting immunity from 12025 while engaged in fishing and going directly to/from fishing. Not sure if there is a similar one for hunting. Further, 12025(j) states that openly holstered weapons are exempt.

I'd tell that Game Warden to stop being such a d-bag and read up on the laws.

nick
01-05-2009, 1:03 AM
As I was considering shifting my residence to NorCal, as I have a property there as well, I read up on the rules in that county (Placer County). The part of approving your CCW application there is to determine your residency, and they have quite a few rules on that. Basically, your residency may be good for most things, but not for CCW, if you work/conduct business in another county. There were quite a few other rules which would prevent me from obtaining a CCW permit there if I actually lived in L.A. I wouldn't be surprised if other NorCal counties have similar rules.

pullnshoot25
01-05-2009, 1:45 AM
This is off topic, but I have seen citations on this forum (and others) about F&G code granting immunity from 12025 while engaged in fishing and going directly to/from fishing. Not sure if there is a similar one for hunting. Further, 12025(j) states that openly holstered weapons are exempt.

I'd tell that Game Warden to stop being such a d-bag and read up on the laws.

Spot on!

pullnshoot25
01-05-2009, 1:47 AM
Dude, freaking ROCK that 1911 and do it with pride!

MP301
01-05-2009, 2:36 AM
As I was considering shifting my residence to NorCal, as I have a property there as well, I read up on the rules in that county (Placer County). The part of approving your CCW application there is to determine your residency, and they have quite a few rules on that. Basically, your residency may be good for most things, but not for CCW, if you work/conduct business in another county. There were quite a few other rules which would prevent me from obtaining a CCW permit there if I actually lived in L.A. I wouldn't be surprised if other NorCal counties have similar rules.

I dont know about the rules in Placer exactly, but my understanding is they are a lot closer to shall issue then most of SoCal.

MP301
01-05-2009, 2:38 AM
Hey man... I really appreciate this reply! The funny thing is that what you've said seems to be true in my case, as well. I've got my CC&Rs sitting right here and I've been going through them with a fine-tooth comb. There is nothing in here that says carrying guns is prohibited. The thing that sucks is that we used to have armed security. They went with these idiots to save money. What a bargain... :rolleyes:

We have honestly tried to get involved with our HOA and we warned them about numerous shortcomings with our current security staff. Back in July, myself and about a dozen of my neighbors raided the HOA meeting and demanded better security but our demands fell on deaf ears. Honestly, at this point, I hope someone sues our property management company. They're truly terrible... (Transpacific Management)

Honestly, there are a few too many cops out there right now and it's going to be that way for a while. I might start open-carrying in a few days but right now, "five-o" is all over my complex. I doubt they'll be in a very receptive mood to hear my "open carry" explanation after last night's shooting...


After it dies down, take that CPOA letter and run with it. Keep a copy with you when you start open carrying...

MP301
01-05-2009, 2:41 AM
Oh yeah, here is the thread on the Califormia Peace Officers Assoc. (CPOA) from their attorneys.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=135991&highlight=cpoa

Kid Stanislaus
01-05-2009, 7:59 AM
I had a Game Warden tell me that if he came up on me while i was involved in outdoor things like fishing or hikeing and my gun was where he couldn't see it he would saw it is concealed even if it was on my side or in a sholder holster.


He may try that crap but he'd get nowhere with it. Of course, it'd screw up your fish'n trip and cost you some money. Maybe that's all the a.h. would want to do anyway.

Kid Stanislaus
01-05-2009, 8:02 AM
note- anyone with a CCW is running around in condition orange anyway- or they should be.


WHAT?

Kid Stanislaus
01-05-2009, 8:11 AM
In thinking about this more, I think I'm going to change my residency.

I own property in Nor-Cal in a more "gun friendly" county. If I switch my residency to up there and get my permit (which they will likely grant me) then it's good throughout the whole state.


I'm planning on moving a few miles to the east for the same reason. Its a shame you have to move around the state to have your rights intact.

MP301
01-06-2009, 5:50 AM
I think cmaynes meant condition yellow. I think a person would be a mess in condition Orange for too long and look like a skitso!

Paladin
01-06-2009, 7:16 AM
First off, "Welcome!" to the RKBA Activists' Club of CA. Glad you survived the initiation process: blissfully non-active -> victim/too close for comfort/know a victim -> RKBA Activist! ;)

Agree w/most of what was already posted. Make sure EVERY adult in the community knows what happened and why (unarmed guard). You may find some of them are now interested in learning about buying and using SGNs and HGs for SD. When you talk with them, be sure to have the contact info for joining the NRA too. Ck out the 16 thing YOU CAN DO link in my sig line.

Reading EVERYTHING that applies to your situation over at: http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com/
especially, http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com/faq.html
and http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com/cccw/cache/gettingstarted/ccwarticle.html

Be sure to also ck out: www.calccw.com
Most of them are in SoCal, so they may have the "inside scoop" re. your police dept and CCWs.

Note well: Unfortunately, even though we are all on the same side, many of the people at those two sites don't get along w/each other. Just a word to the wise.