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hoffmang
01-03-2009, 7:21 PM
All,

I wanted to update everyone on Theseus' status after he received the letter in this now closed thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=141061).

First of all Theseus asked me to post this update as he has decided to maintain radio silence until his case has moved forward.

As The Calguns Foundation had said before, we are currently not able to defend UOC cases monetarily beyond the case we already have undertaken. However, we have actively worked to get Theseus representation familiar with the issue and particularly with school zone prosecutions (one of The Right People.) It appears Theseus will be charged with a misdemeanor violation of 626.9(b). Theseus is paying for his defense personally and may have asked some individuals close to him to assist. I want to make clear that from what the Foundation, myself, and counsel know so far, Theseus has a winnable case but does face an assistant DA known for her displeasure with firearms. All parties will know more after the 1/16 or when counsel gets a copy of the police report or information.

The Calguns Foundation will keep a close eye on this case and is making sure that Theseus and his counsel have access to as much information and assistance as we can provide. Also know that Theseus is lurking and listening on at least this forum.

As I've said in other posts, please don't UOC at this time if you don't have $5000.00 that you can afford to lose in a retainer to defend yourself if charged - even bogusly. If you do UOC please make sure you're aware of where schools are within 1000'. Also, audio recording of your interactions are of value.

After Nordyke is final, UOC cases may make sense for The Calguns Foundation to take and we will revisit the issue, but for now I can relate that the board's policy is to not defend additional UOC prosecutions. To reiterate what I said above though - we will be doing anything else we can to assist Theseus and his counsel in this matter.

-Gene

nobody_special
01-03-2009, 7:27 PM
I wish Theseus luck.

It sounds like a malicious prosecution for something that shouldn't even be illegal to begin with; it's unfortunate that there's no recourse after such cases are dismissed. As BWO demonstrated, the "justice" system can cause financial ruin even to an innocent person. That's not justice.

MudCamper
01-03-2009, 8:11 PM
Thanks for the update Gene.

LOW2000
01-03-2009, 8:16 PM
I wish he could recover treble damages from whoever was responsible for this.

N6ATF
01-03-2009, 8:42 PM
TKS for the update.

Liberty1
01-03-2009, 9:34 PM
Theseus is a squared away individual (IMO). Looking forward to another UOC victory!!! :thumbsup:

RRangel
01-03-2009, 9:58 PM
Hopefully things will go well for Theseus, and I wish him all the good fortune in the world. I know this board will be paying very close attention. It will be interesting to learn the specifics of this case once they come to light. It will be especially interesting to learn more about this "assistant DA known for her displeasure with firearms", and the acting police officers if past actions from some of our public servants are any example.

shooterdave
01-03-2009, 10:29 PM
i wish him the best of luck and hope for a favorable outcome!

jas000
01-04-2009, 8:41 AM
I wonder if this charge from the LA DA explains this

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=140962&highlight=da+open+carry+letter

CA_Libertarian
01-04-2009, 10:33 PM
So, the DA's office is filing a misdemeanor charge on a wobbler? I hope that is an indication that they have a weak case.

I am optimistic for Theseus. He is well versed in the applicable laws. I think the reasonable knowledge component of this charge is going to be a tough sell, even in LA.

As Gene stated, be prepared for the consequences. I don't speak for Theseus, but I believe he knew the risks, and still decided to put his money - and more importantly, his liberty - on the line. Some patriots don't let the winter deter them from getting the job done. They know the risks, and accept them.

EVERY gun owner in the nation is the beneficiary of Theseus' efforts, even if you never want to open carry. The right to keep and bear arms is a civil right that is diminishing rapidly in the nation, and CA is the front line. While most are content that the right to keep arms in their home has not yet been infringed, we are actively trying stop the ongoing erosion of our rights.

Theseus is deserving of our support and gratitude.

BitterVoter
01-04-2009, 10:47 PM
Theseus is deserving of our support and gratitude.

:ninja:

Gene says that he is still around...

Watching....


Kind of makes me nervous...

after all....he is crazy enough to go out in public....

WITH A GUN!!!!

:batman:

hoffmang
01-04-2009, 11:02 PM
after all....he is crazy enough to go out in public....

WITH A GUN!!!!


:rolleyes: Heh.

-Gene

DDT
01-04-2009, 11:07 PM
he is crazy enough to go out in public....

WITH A GUN!!!! ... In L.A.

:batman:

FYP

anthonyca
01-05-2009, 12:22 AM
Thanks for the update.

Python2
01-05-2009, 6:52 AM
Kind of makes me nervous...

after all....he is crazy enough to go out in public....

WITH A GUN!!!!

:batman:

You must be nervous too when you see a cop with a gun eh?:rolleyes:

BobB35
01-05-2009, 11:27 AM
Gene -

Is there an address or contact point where contributions can be sent. I know CGF is not taking up the cause at this time, but hey private citizens are welcome to drop envelopes in the mail if they want to. Reading Theseus "adventures" in UOC were much more entertaining than the last movie I saw and that cost 50$ for me and the wife, so I figure helping out where it is needed wouldn't be a bad thing.

Theseus if you're lurking PM me a name and address.

hoffmang
01-05-2009, 12:18 PM
Gene -

Is there an address or contact point where contributions can be sent. I know CGF is not taking up the cause at this time, but hey private citizens are welcome to drop envelopes in the mail if they want to. Reading Theseus "adventures" in UOC were much more entertaining than the last movie I saw and that cost 50$ for me and the wife, so I figure helping out where it is needed wouldn't be a bad thing.

Theseus if you're lurking PM me a name and address.

I certainly have no problem making sure folks can chip in. It might make sense for Theseus to let me post the client trust account at his counsel's office but I'll need to have him clear that with counsel.

-Gene

geeknow
01-05-2009, 12:27 PM
I certainly have no problem making sure folks can chip in. It might make sense for Theseus to let me post the client trust account at his counsel's office but I'll need to have him clear that with counsel.

-Gene

Please let us know where to send $ when you can. I, too am watching this closely and will step up to help a brother in distress.
g

FreedomIsNotFree
01-05-2009, 1:03 PM
How does that old saying go...."Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it..."

I understand Theseus is in a bit of a pickle financially because of these bogus charges and the cost of defending himself. I hope he is able to resolve this soon without too much hardship to his family.

Biff...
01-05-2009, 1:09 PM
I'd like to help as well. Please PM info.

pullnshoot25
01-05-2009, 4:09 PM
I am ready to throw down as well, Theseus. Keep us posted and we will fight this!

Letitrip
01-05-2009, 5:32 PM
I also had a great time reading about Theseus adventures with UOC. Since I am from the same area as he is, evertime I read his stories I knew exactly where he was talking about, and I would have a clear visual of his experience.

Theseus, I hope this issue gets resolved quickly and completely in your favor. Let us know where we can donate.

Liberty1
01-06-2009, 9:47 AM
I've asked Theseus, even if he doesn't need the help, to allow others to support him as a way for all of us to share the burden of this case. We all do what we can for the 2A fight in CA (some doing more and assuming risks greater then others for the cause of Human Liberty).

By standing by each other we let the powers that be know we will fight "tooth and nail" for one of our own peaceful LAWFUL open carriers wrongfully accused (no charges and no arrest yet).

More details of the case will perhaps be known after Jan. 16th. I hope his attorney or CGF will shortly thereafter issue a statement that Theseus is being wrongfully charged and that a LDF will be set up so we can help Theseus and his family through this event.

sorensen440
01-06-2009, 10:02 AM
I would like to help as well

yellowfin
01-06-2009, 10:45 AM
Let us know when there's a fund set up for the countersuit.

nick
01-06-2009, 11:43 AM
Let us know when there's a fund set up for the countersuit.

Yes, please.

Theseus
01-08-2009, 10:56 PM
I am trying to stay away from speaking too much about this case.

I won't discuss specifics of the case itself, but I will tell you that at this point all is well. My representation is well versed and experienced in this area.

I thank all of you for the support so far and will use it to provide more strength and veracity in making myself a defensible witness. Just know that I make two pledges. Some here know what they are, and you will too when this is all over...Well, I just thought of another. . . so three pledges.

DDT
01-09-2009, 9:30 AM
Thanks for the update. And thanks for taking the vanguard in protecting our rights in this strange strange State.

Theseus
01-13-2009, 8:00 AM
I thank all of you for your support and suggestions.

nick
01-13-2009, 8:37 AM
Do let us know. I got some funds ready.

Also, if they don't give you your xD back, if you want your PA-63 back, it'll be yours.

nicki
01-13-2009, 2:30 PM
Perhaps this case may provide a opportunity to narrow the scope of what are "sensitive zones".

Of course I would like to see the case easily go away and a clean settlement would be a victory.

Nicki

USN CHIEF
01-13-2009, 2:39 PM
Please also post a paypal address, I have some funds in my pay pal account that I would like to contribute to your defense.

Liberty1
01-13-2009, 2:52 PM
Perhaps this case may provide a opportunity to narrow the scope of what are "sensitive zones".

That would require that he pleas or is found guilty and then enters the world of appeals ($$$$$$$).

Theseus
01-13-2009, 3:27 PM
I am removing this. Donations will all be made to CalGuns, not me.

If you would like to help me personally separate of the defense fund, PM me.

yellowfin
01-13-2009, 4:27 PM
Perhaps this case may provide a opportunity to narrow the scope of what are "sensitive zones".I saw an article in Cosmo on that subject... :hide:

JDoe
01-15-2009, 7:30 AM
Contributions made via PayPal are directly to me. Please specify that it is for the defense fund, just so I know.

You can get the link by clicking here OCRights.org Clayton Scott Legal Defense Fund (http://www.ocrights.org/page.php?3)

Once I am confirmed where payments direct to the fund can be sent and how I will post it.

Theseus, yesterday I purchased a money order for $100.00 that I want to send to you for your defense/living expenses-whatever. Do you have an address where I can send it to yet?

Army
01-15-2009, 12:21 PM
Count me in. Whatever I can do.

Theseus
01-16-2009, 10:59 AM
So case related update.

The arraignment was today.

No bail. Was released ROR, pre-trial Feb 10th.

383green
01-16-2009, 11:35 AM
No bail. Was released ROR

I'm glad to hear that! :thumbsup:

383green
01-16-2009, 11:41 AM
Hmm, I just thought of something. If law enforcement agencies are claiming (via things like the recent UOC memo) that UOCers are deliberately looking for LEO contacts in order to get standing for court actions, then I don't think that they can also argue that any of those UOCers are flight risks and thus need to be held or released on bail. If a UOCer gets arrested and then the prosecutor argues for bail to be set, then maybe the (incorrect) LEO claim that these folks want to get arrested can be turned around to argue against requiring bail to release the defendant?

yellowfin
01-16-2009, 11:45 AM
I can't believe that any competent judge would even entertain the ridiculous case in the first place.

tyrist
01-16-2009, 12:04 PM
Hmm, I just thought of something. If law enforcement agencies are claiming (via things like the recent UOC memo) that UOCers are deliberately looking for LEO contacts in order to get standing for court actions, then I don't think that they can also argue that any of those UOCers are flight risks and thus need to be held or released on bail. If a UOCer gets arrested and then the prosecutor argues for bail to be set, then maybe the (incorrect) LEO claim that these folks want to get arrested can be turned around to argue against requiring bail to release the defendant?

They are not going to hold somebody who voluntarily shows up in court when sent a letter and is charged with only a misdemeanor anyway. The Jails are full...County kicks almost all misdemeanor cases; just look at what happened initially with both Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie who were convicted.

Theseus
01-16-2009, 12:25 PM
I can't believe that any competent judge would even entertain the ridiculous case in the first place.

From my understanding the judge does not get to make a determination on the merits of a case until after the arraignment.

The arraignment is only, to my understanding, the first opportunity for everyone to get on the same page and determine if I might stick around for a trial.

bigtoe416
01-16-2009, 2:38 PM
Donation made, 100 bucks for your defense sir.

MudCamper
01-27-2009, 9:07 AM
Theseus, I won't be able to make it to your fundraiser dinner (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=145464) this Thursday. (LA is too far for me.) But I just dropped $500 in your case donation link (https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=ydMhnnfK_ecI6ghNhu9oGC_nhdz14DzU947OrtesVo _XFQWfW_o1o5nd4Oa&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f9fecf49521b3f5afc18ba9034 b1c79cbd5929eac28412d99) on the CalGuns Foundation (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/main/) site.

Keep up the good fight!

Theseus
01-27-2009, 5:42 PM
Theseus, I won't be able to make it to your fundraiser dinner (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=145464) this Thursday. (LA is too far for me.) But I just dropped $500 in your case donation link (https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=ydMhnnfK_ecI6ghNhu9oGC_nhdz14DzU947OrtesVo _XFQWfW_o1o5nd4Oa&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f9fecf49521b3f5afc18ba9034 b1c79cbd5929eac28412d99) on the CalGuns Foundation (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/main/) site.

Keep up the good fight!

Every little bit goes a long way! I thank you.

I was not aware they had actually taken this step, but it does make me feel a little happy. I was scared for a while that I was all on my lonesome once this started developing into something more than a minor inconvenience.

Shotgun Man
01-27-2009, 5:50 PM
Every little bit goes a long way! I thank you.

I was not aware they had actually taken this step, but it does make me feel a little happy. I was scared for a while that I was all on my lonesome once this started developing into something more than a minor inconvenience.

$500-- a little bit? :)

Theseus
01-27-2009, 6:06 PM
$500-- a little bit? :)

Gee...I am sorry...

I was making a GENERAL statement not in relation directly to his contribution, but the fact of CalGuns Foundation creating a fund link.

MudCamper is the personal savior of my wife, my daughter, myself and the public at large. This single donation could be the donation that keeps me from having to suffer the public by prostituting myself to raise the funds I need to fight this. :D

MudCamper
01-27-2009, 7:39 PM
I was making a GENERAL statement not in relation directly to his contribution, but the fact of CalGuns Foundation creating a fund link.

It's true. Every little bit does help. Even for those that can only aford 20 bucks, it's still helpful. I just thought it was time for me to put my money where my mouth is so to speak. And I really HATE 626.9.

http://calgunsfoundation.org/

Theseus
02-02-2009, 4:28 PM
Bump.

I wouldn't normally, but pretrial is on Feb 10th and I have not had any better luck finding a job.

Tarn_Helm
02-02-2009, 7:27 PM
I wish Theseus luck.

It sounds like a malicious prosecution for something that shouldn't even be illegal to begin with; it's unfortunate that there's no recourse after such cases are dismissed. As BWO demonstrated, the "justice" system can cause financial ruin even to an innocent person. That's not justice.

Best of luck to you, Theseus.

Like I always tell my students: We don't have a justice system; we have a legal system, an adversarial game in which the goal is to defeat the other side--not to create or promote justice.:(

I hope you win--that would be at least an approximation of justice.

LOW2000
02-02-2009, 7:42 PM
Bump.

I wouldn't normally, but pretrial is on Feb 10th and I have not had any better luck finding a job.

What did you do for a living? There are a lot of people here on Calguns who might be looking for someone.

elSquid
02-02-2009, 7:48 PM
Bump.

I wouldn't normally, but pretrial is on Feb 10th and I have not had any better luck finding a job.

No worries. Donation sent.

Good luck!

-- Michael

BobB35
02-02-2009, 8:28 PM
Donation sent. Told you this was better than the last movie I saw.

nso1
02-03-2009, 5:11 PM
Theseus, I just gave you the profits of my first ebay sale (25$) I hope you beat this and make a fool out of the DA doing it.

xxdabroxx
02-03-2009, 5:40 PM
mudcamper, you are one big man. That is truly a selfless thing to do.

35 more for ya, your going to need it.

Liberty1
02-04-2009, 10:33 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150893

Thank you to all who have given $$$$ and or moral support! Please cross post and encourage your friends and relatives to give to this cause! This is very winnable. It is a travisty of justice and a waste of taxpayer's money in these cash strapped times when there are real violent criminals who need to be kept locked up! (but what else is new in LA).





:patriot: There are those who talk and those who do. CALGUNNERS DO! And one of our own needs your help. :patriot:


The Calguns Foundation has started a Legal Defense fund where you can donate to this cause. (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/component/content/article/36-current-legal-cases/67-donate-to-theseus-open-carry-case)


Theseus has been unloaded open carrying (http://californiaopencarry.org/) for the better part of a year in East LA County, an area known for violent gang crimes and assaults against peaceful law abiding (but unarmed) citizens. He has carried in compliance with ALL state laws to be able to defend his young wife and daughter as every free American has a Right to do.


He has also shown and proven that it can be done responsibly and that the public doesn't react with panic and terror at the mere sight of a peacefully holstered sidearm.


Theseus has been charged with but did not violate the School Zone gun prohibition. He has always been very careful to stay within the law (a Calguns specialty :thumbsup:) When he was contacted by police he was not arrested as his possession was legal.


It was not until the police went back 3 DAYS LATER WITH A MEASURING DEVICE did the officers realize that it was even within 1000' of a school. THE POLICE DID NOT EVEN KNOW IT WAS IN A "SCHOOL ZONE" at the time Theseus was contacted! A report was sent to the DA's Office and they filed charges (no mention was made that Theseus was on private property).


He was clearly on Private Property, which is also clearly exempted from the school zone law:


626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.

(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone...

(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property...


Theseus is well represented by Bruce Colodny, Esq. (http://www.gunlaw.com/), one of So Cals finest 2nd Amendment defense attorneys. I'm told that Bruce has every confindence that Theseus will be shown to have been legal in his self defense firearm possession.


Please join me and many other Calgunners in supporting Theseus, a law abiding American, Father and Husband, against this politically motivated charge and send a message that the SECOND AMENDMENT TO THE BILL OF RIGHTS means what it says and that we will
STAND BY OUR OWN!


Please give whatever you can afford. None of us are safe in the face of these unconstitutional laws and politically motivated charges. This could easily some day be you. Will you not now stand with him? Together we are stronger!




Please donate today. All monies not used will be placed into the Calguns Foundation Fund
to be used to further the fight for our Basic Human Self Defense Rights. (http://www.a-human-right.com/)

:79:


PLEASE DONATE HERE (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/component/content/article/36-current-legal-cases/67-donate-to-theseus-open-carry-case)


(note: I do not represent the CGF, but I am a supporter!)

Theseus
02-04-2009, 11:55 AM
What did you do for a living? There are a lot of people here on Calguns who might be looking for someone.

Arguably I am not doing anything for a living...

But here is my post here on Calguns

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150127

Bob Ragen
02-04-2009, 7:49 PM
$50.00 more for yah.

DocSkinner
02-04-2009, 11:48 PM
regretfully this is the rule of the game, not just in poker, but in law: If you can't bankroll yourself, don't sit at the table. I keep seeing so many people bring up many variations in interpretation and are sure they are right - often probably are, but our system says the person that can convince either a judge or a jury is right - so it is all in THEIR interpretations, not necessarily logical ones.

Many argue that money such as for political contributions is free speech - and it applies her as well - the more money you can spend, the more "free" speech you get. So many seem to forget that right or wrong, it will cost to prove it. Shouldn't be that way, but it is. Playing these games are big boy ( i.e.: big money) games. If you don't have $10k socked away, you can't ante. If you try, it will get taken out of you, your family and children. I agree with rayra (I think from original thread?) - this is a game for young singles or for those with money that either way can afford the consequences. Its a pay to play system, whether it should be or not. I see it so many times in post warning against the little twist, and just don't think many of these people are considering what it will cost them. I know many will strive ahead regardless, but maybe a law type could post a "if you want to play" sticky that really delineates just what all costs are going to be in play, we could at least help people realize what expenses (monetary and other) they are anteing up on the table with their gamble. Forewarned is forearmed. and we all like be armed - fore or other wise.

Out of work myself, and try to support calguns as much as possible, but can't do more than that right now.

I support your spirit, tenacity, and devotion, and best of luck to you and your family.

Liberty1
02-05-2009, 5:58 AM
...it will cost to prove it...

Sounds like an argument to not own firearms or to move out of state. I know you're not advocating that extreme but still...

Theseus was not challenging any laws here. He was not seeking conflict. He had been twice contacted by the PD and each time found to be lawful. He was not engaged in civil disobedience but rather civil obedience for the noblest of reasons in East LA; defense of family and self.

The charges here are no different then the police discovering that you have a firearm on your private property and assuming that the law was violated just because you were inside the zone as the crow flys (without regard to where the law doesn't apply).

This is a fight for all of us to take on. The win here will leave the DA's office a little more educated and will make mere possession easier.

And maybe we'll then see 626.9's elements of the crime described better in the Open Carry memos which have been published by the authorities.

You are right about the risks and everyone should go in with their eyes wide open. Theseus has always been willing to go with the public defender's office as he has been very careful as to where and how he possesses. Some of us have talked him into using a great private attorney which costs $$$$. I'd rather have the DA's office hit with a sledge hammer every time they falsely charge us and know we mean to follow the laws and have them fairly applied (until they're repealed or struck down). But that also means we ALL need to help with a little $$$ (as most here do) from time to time as personal finances allow.


Oh, and here is +$100 for the kitty

1BigPea
02-05-2009, 11:24 AM
Just donated for this cause. Checks in the mail. :thumbsup:

DocSkinner
02-06-2009, 10:42 AM
Sounds like an argument to not own firearms or to move out of state. I know you're not advocating that extreme but still...

Theseus was not challenging any laws here. He was not seeking conflict. He had been twice contacted by the PD and each time found to be lawful. He was not engaged in civil disobedience but rather civil obedience for the noblest of reasons in East LA; defense of family and self.

The charges here are no different then the police discovering that you have a firearm on your private property and assuming that the law was violated just because you were inside the zone as the crow flys (without regard to where the law doesn't apply).

This is a fight for all of us to take on. The win here will leave the DA's office a little more educated and will make mere possession easier.

And maybe we'll then see 626.9's elements of the crime described better in the Open Carry memos which have been published by the authorities.

You are right about the risks and everyone should go in with their eyes wide open. Theseus has always been willing to go with the public defender's office as he has been very careful as to where and how he possesses. Some of us have talked him into using a great private attorney which costs $$$$. I'd rather have the DA's office hit with a sledge hammer every time they falsely charge us and know we mean to follow the laws and have them fairly applied (until they're repealed or struck down). But that also means we ALL need to help with a little $$$ (as most here do) from time to time as personal finances allow.


Oh, and here is +$100 for the kitty

And I wasn't speaking in particularly just about this case, and was trying to avoid any "table talk" about it in particular.

You are right I don't advocate either, and we do have to fight, so thank you for a polite response and recognizing that! I just think you have to be careful on picking the battles as we really need to make sure we win every one, a single loss can be a huge precedent and set back, and so many times if it goes to a jury particularly in certain areas of Cali, it won't be about the logic or rights, but about a DA spewing and feeding the juries fear and playing on the very incorrect stereotype of what a gun owner is that so many on juries have. I am not a lawyer, but these cases before a jury in a city district often seem far more about overcoming that stereotype and bias and the fear than anything to do with laws and logic (yes - I have a PhD in experimental psychology (memory and learning) and may therefore may just be seeing it through my bias).

And so I am glad of the use of a private lawyer, instead of a PD that may have all the same fears and biases the jury already has. Part of the expense part - do not think you are going to get decent representation from a PD that is over worked, underpaid, and has other cases to work on that will build his public reputation? I know right now I am probably overly cautious or cynical, or both.

Its not right, just the reality of the system right now - IMO.


Again - good luck - and good decision on private representation!

bigtoe416
02-10-2009, 9:21 PM
How was your day in court?

Liberty1
02-10-2009, 9:29 PM
How was your day in court?

I don't know if Theseus should comment so I will.

Update: Postponed until March 10th. :( and the DA assigned to prosecute didn't show up (sent a lacky instead).

yellowfin
02-10-2009, 10:04 PM
Sounds like an argument to not own firearms or to move out of state. That's the entire intent of the people writing and "enforcing" the laws.

Letitrip
02-11-2009, 10:22 PM
I don't know if Theseus should comment so I will.

Update: Postponed until March 10th. :( and the DA assigned to prosecute didn't show up (sent a lacky instead).

Man, I hate those freaking games that the DA plays on people. When a person is charged for a crime and ordered to appear in court they must, or they are threatened with jail and fines, but the DA can choose not to attend a hearing? How fair is that and what a lack of respect for the communities that they are supposed to serve.

The last time I was a witness on a case where a friend was wrongfully charged of a crime, and at the end, after about six months of repeated continuances, charges were finally dropped. Being a witness cost me over 6 days of work. The DA knows that most people must work to survive, and its harder for the people to fight than to accept, and that is why they use these tactics, so that they can win and criminalize the innocent.

The more I think about how Theseus was wrongfully charged, the more I get pissed off.

yellowfin
02-11-2009, 10:30 PM
When is this DA up for reelection? Have them booted from office then disbarred for this.

SteveH
02-12-2009, 6:03 PM
Man, I hate those freaking games that the DA plays on people. When a person is charged for a crime and ordered to appear in court they must, or they are threatened with jail and fines, but the DA can choose not to attend a hearing? How fair is that and what a lack of respect for the communities that they are supposed to serve.

Dont worry it works for both sides of the table. The suspects and the cops are the only ones who have to show up. The prosecution, defense and judges all frequently no show and then reschedule around their tee times.

tyrist
02-12-2009, 8:17 PM
When is this DA up for reelection? Have them booted from office then disbarred for this.

I am sure it was a deputy DA not the DA so no election necessary. Their workload is heavy so often whoever the assigned DA for the day in that court div is who files the motion.

I thought he was up for a misdemeanor charge...it would be the City Attorney Handling that.

vrand
02-12-2009, 8:33 PM
That's the entire intent of the people writing and "enforcing" the laws.

Can the last citizen leaving California, please turn off the lights

Liberty1
02-18-2009, 11:20 AM
bump!

swhatb
02-18-2009, 11:39 AM
Can the last citizen leaving California, please turn off the lights

Lights off... can i get my state refund now :D

yellowfin
02-18-2009, 10:12 PM
Can the last citizen leaving California, please turn off the lights Nah, don't want to leave the 15 million non citizen/illegals in the dark.

DDT
02-18-2009, 10:16 PM
Lights off... can i get my state refund now :D

Sure, do you want Pesos or Yuan?

sfpcservice
02-19-2009, 3:25 PM
Anyone else thinking about the part in Red Dawn where the townfolk sing "Amber waves of grain"?

Theseus
03-03-2009, 8:53 PM
So March 10th!

It seems that as of this point the DA isn't necessarily trying to play hardball, he is simply trying to play... I don't know.

He is indicating that he intends to argue all the way that he can even knowing he doesn't have a case.

We will see what March 10th brings. This is the pre-trial, so we should see the actual trial in approx. 15 days (from what I recall) unless it is dismissed.

Cross your fingers guys. Right now we are just about even between what I managed to raise and the donations... Lets hope we can get the job done with what we have right now.

yellowfin
03-03-2009, 9:03 PM
Be sure to countersue.

nick
03-03-2009, 10:02 PM
Be sure to countersue.

+1. You do that, I'll donate more, and I have a feeling many here will, as well. Hopefully, enough to support such a case.

KylaGWolf
03-08-2009, 9:03 PM
Theseus here is hoping the judge has a brain in his/her head and knows the DA is full of garbage.

Liberty1
03-08-2009, 9:08 PM
Donations are still needed! Thanks for all the support and help!

Donate here
http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/component/content/article/36-current-legal-cases/67-donate-to-theseus-open-carry-case

All unused funds will go into the main Calguns Foundation fund to further the fight for our self defense rights! :thumbsup:

xxdabroxx
03-09-2009, 1:43 PM
Good luck tomorrow! Wish we could listen like the OC BOS hearings.

1BigPea
03-10-2009, 11:08 AM
Anyone have any updates?

xxdabroxx
03-10-2009, 11:32 AM
prob in a day or two. maybe this evening if we are lucky.

sfpcservice
03-10-2009, 1:33 PM
Hopefully the Judge threw the case out and Theseus is at chevy's on his third pitcher of top shelf margaritas!

xxdabroxx
03-10-2009, 6:34 PM
here here :cheers2:

Liberty1
03-10-2009, 6:40 PM
Hopefully the Judge threw the case out

Looks like there will be a jury trial starting April 9th. It seems the ADA wants to try to make the private property exemption not apply to Theseus because really private property is pubic property in the style of George Orwell's 1984 "newspeak".

N6ATF
03-10-2009, 6:50 PM
Brilliant. In my world, pubic property is my private property. He's still ROR, right?

Dr Rockso
03-10-2009, 7:00 PM
Looks like there will be a jury trial starting April 9th. It seems the ADA wants to try to make the private property exemption not apply to Theseus because really private property is pubic property in the style of George Orwell's 1984 "newspeak".
Wow, a UOC jury trial. Good luck, man.

Liberty1
03-10-2009, 7:03 PM
He's still ROR, right? Never was arrested so no R on that OR. Yes, he is not in the clink.

paladin4415
03-10-2009, 7:18 PM
Ah, the sweet sound of another ADA trying to make a name for themselves. Some of the biggest ASShats I've ever worked with were ADA's out to "prove" themselves.

N6ATF
03-10-2009, 7:40 PM
Never was arrested so no R on that OR. Yes, he is not in the clink.

I don't know, they could have thrown him in jail out of spite after the hearing, for all I know.

sfpcservice
03-10-2009, 9:01 PM
Surrender or face trial by jury..... Nuts!;)

sfpcservice
03-10-2009, 9:03 PM
Who's the Prosecutor by the way?

RRangel
03-10-2009, 9:54 PM
I bet most people will have their tax returns by April 9. I will definitely have some funds to contribute before that date. All of the pro gun people on calguns and elsewhere need to put their money where there mouth is as soon as possible. Remember people that you really make a difference.

Theseus
03-10-2009, 10:05 PM
Yeah, Liberty has it right. We needed to continue due to some small glithches in getting hand on some small pieces of evidence.

My understanding is that the argument is still based on People V Tapia and that recent case that came down up north reported here. The one where the guy tried arguing exempt from 12025 and/or 12031 because he was on private property.

I know the normal advise is to NOT post details about an ongoing case, but I feel that the possible damage to me is minimal. I did nothing illegal and feel I am more a victim of a political agenda. I will continue to share as many details as I can about what is going on as that seems to me important. Unless I am told to stop by legal I will continue to provide every detail I can about the other side. I will not however include details about our strategy because I don't want to tip our hat.

Thank you all again for all the support. The sooner this gets done the sooner I can get back to my life and once again become a productive member of society and the sooner we can as a group focus on the other important cases like the Don Anderson and the Phil Dominguez (sp?).

My only real hope is that once this is over I have grounds to seek damages and at least try and return to whole.

Decoligny
03-11-2009, 7:18 AM
I would like to try to attend the trial if possible. Show of support. I think a courtroom full of CALGUNS.NET & OPENCARRY.ORG members would be a good thing.

Just need to know the following:

When?

Where?

sfpcservice
03-11-2009, 2:38 PM
I would like to try to attend the trial if possible. Show of support. I think a courtroom full of CALGUNS.NET & OPENCARRY.ORG members would be a good thing.

Just need to know the following:

When?

Where?

Since it's a jury trial, I'd be concerned with the impact that might have on the jurors, possibly thinking he's part of a gang or something. It may be a good idea to let Theseus decide what level of participation is appropriate.

bigtoe416
03-11-2009, 3:14 PM
We'd be the strangest gang anybody has ever seen!

CSACANNONEER
03-11-2009, 3:17 PM
We'd be the strangest gang anybody has ever seen!

Just a bunch of old, fat, bald guys or, we could get a bunch of the pink pistols to show up in festive attire.

artherd
03-13-2009, 12:36 AM
Let's defer to consul, but I'd welcome all calgunners *IN SUITS* to any trial I participate in.

Theseus
03-16-2009, 1:27 PM
Well, I do have slight mixed feelings about this.

It is my belief that the real reason this is even a case is because the officer incorrectly stated in the police report that I stated I was an "activist" and "trying to educate people that it is legal to OC".

I believe they think of me as an activist and someone that needs to be stopped, so I don't know whether having supporters there is productive or counter productive.

I will consult with representation and determine.

TheBundo
03-16-2009, 9:36 PM
Martin Luther King was an activist, and he now has a holiday named for him. Maybe some day we'll have Theseus Day. :) Or at least Theseus Hour

Theseus
03-16-2009, 9:57 PM
If by Theseus Hour we get 1/2 off beer nights I am all for it! Haha!!!

I am not really an activist though. . . Just someone who wanted the chance to protect myself and my family. And trust me. . . I don't really wish to be an activist, but my father always taught me not to run from a fight.

TheBundo
03-16-2009, 10:33 PM
If by Theseus Hour we get 1/2 off beer nights I am all for it! Haha!!!

I am not really an activist though. . . Just someone who wanted the chance to protect myself and my family. And trust me. . . I don't really wish to be an activist, but my father always taught me not to run from a fight.

The strange thing is that you are having to defend yourself for doing something "legal", whereas people like Rosa Parks were doing something "illegal". How far we have sunk as a society in some ways, while rising in other ways.

nick
03-16-2009, 10:49 PM
I am not really an activist though. . . Just someone who wanted the chance to protect myself and my family. And trust me. . . I don't really wish to be an activist, but my father always taught me not to run from a fight.

So, your father was an activist too then. Such insolence!

artherd
03-17-2009, 11:48 AM
Martin Luther King was an activist, and he now has a holiday named for him. Maybe some day we'll have Theseus Day. :) Or at least Theseus Hour

Martin Luther King was assassinated...

DDT
03-17-2009, 12:01 PM
Well, I do have slight mixed feelings about this.

It is my belief that the real reason this is even a case is because the officer incorrectly stated in the police report that I stated I was an "activist" and "trying to educate people that it is legal to OC".

I believe they think of me as an activist and someone that needs to be stopped, so I don't know whether having supporters there is productive or counter productive.

I will consult with representation and determine.

Could you imagine what would happen if the police arrested or harassed people just because they were viewed as first amendment "activists" even though they were not doing anything illegal? Now, that would make the news. "District Attorney files show charges were only filed because XYZ was a civil rights activist"

Californio
03-17-2009, 1:10 PM
Could you imagine what would happen if the police arrested or harassed people just because they were viewed as first amendment "activists" even though they were not doing anything illegal? Now, that would make the news. "District Attorney files show charges were only filed because XYZ was a civil rights activist"

Fahrenheit 451?

bondmid003
03-17-2009, 11:19 PM
Hopefully things are going well for you Theseus

N6ATF
03-18-2009, 12:01 AM
Fahrenheit 451?

What temperature in fahrenheit do they melt guns taken from buybacks at? It was 451 for books. Maybe that should be the title of the pro-2A documentary... Fahrenheit ###. Or maybe Celsius ###.

7x57
03-18-2009, 12:40 AM
What temperature in fahrenheit do they melt guns taken from buybacks at? It was 451 for books. Maybe that should be the title of the pro-2A documentary... Fahrenheit ###. Or maybe Celsius ###.

Farenheit 2580? That's the melting point of 4140.

Doesn't quite ring though, does it?

7x57

N6ATF
03-18-2009, 12:56 PM
2580 degrees Fahrenheit = 1 415.55556 degrees Celsius

Celsius 1415 kinda has a ring to it (and the same numbers).

domokun
03-18-2009, 2:01 PM
2580 degrees Fahrenheit = 1 415.55556 degrees Celsius

Celsius 1415 kinda has a ring to it (and the same numbers).

Kelvin 1688 :thumbsup:

7x57
03-18-2009, 2:18 PM
Kelvin 1688 :thumbsup:

I'm tempted to counter with Rankine 3040, but I think Kelvin 1688 is a winner.

7x57

N6ATF
03-18-2009, 6:06 PM
1688 is a tongue twister!

DDT
03-18-2009, 11:42 PM
Fahrenheit 357. It's not the melting or burning point of anything in particular but it carries the message in a way that all could understand.

Just as Fahrenheit 451 gave a new meaning to "fireman" perhaps we know what the next generation of "shooters" will be.

Letitrip
03-23-2009, 11:06 PM
Damned thread derailers, I was hoping to read for an update, instead I got a bunch of ideas for movie titles. Geez.

So whats the status on this case?

Theseus
03-30-2009, 6:23 PM
Still ongoing and obnoxious.

CitaDeL
04-09-2009, 5:12 PM
Looks like there will be a jury trial starting April 9th. It seems the ADA wants to try to make the private property exemption not apply to Theseus because really private property is pubic property in the style of George Orwell's 1984 "newspeak".

Please tell me Im not the only one longing for a point by point update on the events surrounding the trial...:shrug:

yellowfin
04-09-2009, 5:25 PM
This should make for one heck of a countersuit for harassment and defamation of character.

redneckshootist
04-09-2009, 9:08 PM
Looks like there will be a jury trial starting April 9th. It seems the ADA wants to try to make the private property exemption not apply to Theseus because really private property is pubic property in the style of George Orwell's 1984 "newspeak".

is there any updates on the case?

Liberty1
04-09-2009, 9:23 PM
is there any updates on the case?

continued....'till the 23rd?

Theseus
04-10-2009, 11:17 AM
There was another major addition to this.

It has been continued to April 23rd.

383green
04-10-2009, 11:56 AM
There was another major addition to this.

It has been continued to April 23rd.

Without going into details, is the addition expected to be good or bad for you?

Meplat
04-11-2009, 7:30 PM
How about Fahrenheit 1000, that will get most of the pot metal junk they collect in those buy-backs.:p



Farenheit 2580? That's the melting point of 4140.

Doesn't quite ring though, does it?

7x57

bondmid003
04-24-2009, 1:28 PM
Its April 24th, whats the scoop

KWA-S
04-24-2009, 3:41 PM
Bah, y'all know if there is going to be a documentary about California's struggle for 2A rights, its going to be called "TWO WEEKS" :p







And every calgunner shall groan.

CitaDeL
04-24-2009, 4:59 PM
Since he posted early this morning, he isnt incarcerated. Since we havent been updated with the outcome, it would be logical to deduce that this trial has been postponed yet again.

Calguns2000
04-24-2009, 5:45 PM
I'm guessing now that Nordyke has incorporated the 2A to apply to CA he will be adding a 2A argument to his defense strategy.

RP1911
04-24-2009, 5:58 PM
Ha. I raised that issue whether Dominguez can use Nordyke decision in the Nordyke thread.

I hope he did.

nick
04-24-2009, 6:05 PM
With all these extensions the right to speedy trial doesn't apply? Or are they agreed upon by both sides?

damon1272
04-24-2009, 6:34 PM
I think he needs to have a licensed surveyor actually measure his location, I deal with these type of measurements you would be surprised how many supposed property lines are in the wrong place.

Very excellent point! PL (property line) generally starts 10' behind curb. That would give him an extra 10' of public right of way before the "School zone" came into affect.

Matt C
04-24-2009, 6:40 PM
With all these extensions the right to speedy trial doesn't apply? Or are they agreed upon by both sides?

It has to be both sides in most cases, but this is a good thing for a defendant. The longer it drags on the better chance of a dismissal.

Hopi
04-24-2009, 6:48 PM
It has to be both sides in most cases, but this is a good thing for a defendant. The longer it drags on the better chance of a dismissal.

BWO, as you are fully-aware, lawyer fees are punitive enough that a DA can pursue an innocent citizen and still have it direct future behavior, dismissal or not. That is not always a good thing for a defendant or liberty.

However, the Calguns community holds a stake in the successes of each of our fights and we rally appropriately. I feel that without CGN, many of these DAs would play that game all day long.....

Long story short. DAs have long possessed the need to be taught a lesson about malicious arrest/prosecution. I have confidence that this ball has been rolling for some time with the CGF, and further confidence that soon this type of abuse will be rare.

GuyW
04-24-2009, 6:52 PM
Very excellent point! PL (property line) generally starts 10' behind curb. That would give him an extra 10' of public right of way before the "School zone" came into affect.

Per the Civil Code, a fronting property owner is presumed to own the land to the centerline of the street....a street right-of-way is basically (and generally) an easement, not a fee ownership (I understand that City of LA actually owns the fee title to most of their streets, and the State of CA definitely does).
.

xxdabroxx
04-24-2009, 6:59 PM
thats a county deal. In most cities there is a right of way, and you own a ways back from the curb, for future expansion of said street. Just about anywhere that is county you own to the middle of the road, but once you are in a city they start taking the streets for themselves. My experience at least.

You want something sickening, look at PUE's (public utility easments) they usually have another 5' to 15' of your property that they can use.

Matt C
04-24-2009, 7:01 PM
BWO, as you are fully-aware, lawyer fees are punitive enough that a DA can pursue an innocent citizen and still have it direct future behavior, dismissal or not. That is not always a good thing for a defendant or liberty.

However, the Calguns community holds a stake in the successes of each of our fights and we rally appropriately. I feel that without CGN, many of these DAs would play that game all day long.....

Long story short. DAs have long possessed the need to be taught a lesson about malicious arrest/prosecution. I have confidence that this ball has been rolling for some time with the CGF, and further confidence that soon this type of abuse will be rare.

CGF is not helping Theseus though, so I'm not sure that applies here. If there is any credit due it's to Theseus for not backing down. I would encourage everyone to donate if you are able, you can donate though CGF but be sure to clearly earmark the donation.

Hopi
04-24-2009, 7:01 PM
CGF is not helping Theseus though, so I'm not sure that applies here............ you can donate though CGF but be sure to clearly earmark the donation.

+1 on Theseus not backing down.....


You answered your own question. no?

WokMaster1
04-24-2009, 7:48 PM
Bump for more info, please.

Theseus
04-25-2009, 11:28 AM
Case continued to May 28th I think.

Can't comment any more than that or Bruce will have my head.

Whiskey84
04-25-2009, 9:36 PM
We're all pulling for you man.

KylaGWolf
04-25-2009, 10:02 PM
Ok Thesus thanks for the update that they put if off again. I am still rooting for you in getting this taken care of soon.

DocSkinner
04-25-2009, 11:49 PM
I think he needs to have a licensed surveyor actually measure his location, I deal with these type of measurements you would be surprised how many supposed property lines are in the wrong place.

+1 - like how a fence that got built some how, some WHEN in teh past is ASSUMED to be a property line...

and like how an architect neighbor in Culver City included my (well, ex-wife's) property into his property for permits for building, and no one in the city offices checked it. He built as if the fence (cinderblock wal) was his - it was actually on our property, by the 6" set back even - so he "assumed" ~18 inches of property to allow him to build a bloated house, and "assume" the wall into his property - he even hung teh gat hinges on it.
\
Have to give him some credit - he did offer to pave our side along his new driveway so it wouldn;t look so bad they kept trampling our grass getting in and out of their cars - on our property. Such a nice offer. I am sure that our "consent to use/infringe" on our our porpoety and how that grants an easement NEVER crossed his mind. So sad that ex wife was spineless. But so glad as if she had a spine no divorce, and no great marriage and kids I have now! teh fates are weird, aren't they?



edit - sorry for a segue in the thread... Was trying to point out how these are majors issues and devolved to a bit of a rant...

CA_Libertarian
04-26-2009, 11:11 AM
Accuracy of measurements is completely mooted by the fact that 626.9 does NOT apply on private property. Since the police encountered him on private property, it doesn't matter if he was 5 feet from the school property line.

Remember folks, this is just another case of a DA misinterpreting the law in order to maliciously prosecute someone for having the audacity to exercise his Second Amendment right to bear arms.

sfpcservice
04-26-2009, 12:17 PM
Accuracy of measurements is completely mooted by the fact that 626.9 does NOT apply on private property. Since the police encountered him on private property, it doesn't matter if he was 5 feet from the school property line.

Remember folks, this is just another case of a DA misinterpreting the law in order to maliciously prosecute someone for having the audacity to exercise his Second Amendment right to bear arms.

Not to mention that 626.9 requires a person to reasonably know they were in a school zone. The f'ing cops didn't know they were in one on the initial contact!!!!!!

hoffmang
04-26-2009, 1:27 PM
Accuracy of measurements is completely mooted by the fact that 626.9 does NOT apply on private property. Since the police encountered him on private property, it doesn't matter if he was 5 feet from the school property line.

It isn't clear that the strip mall he was in is actually private property under the definitions of the Penal Code. The problematic case is People v. Tapia (http://login.findlaw.com/scripts/callaw?dest=ca/caapp4th/129/1153.html) (2005) 129 Cal.App.4th 1153.

-Gene

Theseus
04-26-2009, 2:08 PM
For those without Findlaw accounts, a PDF version.

I wish I could get into this, but I can't.

Matt C
04-26-2009, 2:23 PM
Not to mention that 626.9 requires a person to reasonably know they were in a school zone. The f'ing cops didn't know they were in one on the initial contact!!!!!!

I'd say that is probably his best defense, but of course he can use them all, including constitutional protections thanks to Nordyke. What sucks is that if the case is not dismissed, a trial is a 50/50 thing, and appeals are very expensive. then you are in 9th circuit territory where anything gun related is a crap shoot, and SCOTUS is 10 years and a seven figure legal fee away, IF they grant certiorari. Being right is not a get out of jail free card, remember that.

The problematic case is People v. Tapia.

Tapia is more helpful than harmful, and it is probably dicta anyways.

I would argue that the court ruled in Tapia only that a sidewalk where an easement of way which has been granted to a public entity and where the children of the school could reasonably be expected to walk upon that sidewalk to get to the school was not private property under 626.9 . Further, the sidewalk was, according to the court "clearly neither a place of business nor a place of residence". The case specifically does not "determine precisely what "private property" encompasses for purposes of section 626.9" but it at least seems to determine that an area may be private property even if it is a "public area".

The case is actually very good here, without it we would probably be stuck with People v. Vega, which seems to be how the trial court was operating, in which case Theseus would be screwed as almost any business, and certainly parking lots, would be public areas.

Unfortunately it also seems like dicta because the court states, "Second, even if the sidewalk had constituted private property, Tapia did not fall within the ambit of section 626.9's private property exception. Under the plain language of the statute, the private property exception applies only if the possession occurred on private property and the "possession of the firearm is otherwise lawful." (§ 626.9, subd. (c)(1).) Here, if Tapia possessed the firearm as described by the officers, his possession could not have been "otherwise lawful." As noted, section 12031, subdivision (a)(1) provides that a "person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person . . . while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city . . . ." According to the officers, Tapia was carrying a loaded firearm on the sidewalk in front of the house. As we have explained, "public place," for purposes of section 12031, does not necessarily mean public property, but refers to an area accessible to the public."

The court did not even need to determine if the sidewalk was "private property" because it was certainly a "public place" per Vega, and since the firearm was loaded, and thus already unlawfully possessed, the private property exemption to 626.9 could never have applied to Tapia.

Liberty1
04-26-2009, 3:37 PM
Tapia is more helpful than harmful, and it is probably dicta anyways.

I agree. If the legislature wanted to have a school zones apply in "any public place" they know how to use that language (see 12031). And Theseus is aided in the fact that his carry was "otherwise legal" unlike Tapia's at least until 12031 is overturned for carry on your own property, "public place" not withstanding.

GuyW
04-27-2009, 11:16 AM
....if a judge allows a cops wheel tape measurement in court as evidence it would be extreme incompetence by the judge.

IIRC, the Judge can basically only rule on what's presented. I'm sure they often have many private thoughts about how a case is prosecuted and/or defended....

A certified surveyors measurement should be the only evidence allowed in court, after all a mans Liberty is at risk here.

Offer extended some time ago.
.

DDT
04-27-2009, 11:32 AM
a cops wheel tape!! *over a thousand feet* the cops could easily be off by a significant amount. Thesus would be innocent. imo if a judge allows a cops wheel tape measurement in court as evidence it would be extreme incompetence by the judge.

I highly doubt that there is a direct path from the school to the location that the interaction took place anyway. A wheel tape can't measure THROUGH a building.

Additionally, I think a judge that allows a wheel tape in court is most helpful. What better way to show there is no "reasonable" way Theseus would have known he was within 1000'?

Well, your honor, my client is very careful and has had numerous encounters with law enforcement in the past with no problems. He is well aware of the laws surrounding Unloaded Open Carry in the State of California. He knew where he was and had every reason to believe that he was not within a Gun Free School Zone. The officer did not mention anything about a school zone during the contact and didn't feel my client posed a threat to any school children since he didn't seize his weapon. My client was 984' (or whatever) away from the school in question and was not within line of sight.

Letitrip
05-18-2009, 10:31 AM
Any updates on this case?

xxdabroxx
05-18-2009, 11:52 AM
they prob used google earth's measure tool.

GuyW
05-18-2009, 4:40 PM
If a judge accepts measurements from anyone other than a lic surveyor it is incompetence by the judge. The cops *can not* be accurate over 1000 ft. and I understand this to be very very close to 1000 ft.

Most PDs now have lower-than-surveyor-accuracy total stations to measure accident scenes. Their work can certainly be scrutinized and contested.

I personally have a problem with LE providing testimony in criminal matters in disciplines where state licensure exists, such as land surveying and engineering...

GuyW
05-18-2009, 4:41 PM
they prob used google earth's measure tool.

That's highly contestable...
.

Theseus
05-18-2009, 5:01 PM
May 28th pre-trial. Alhambra court house.

CSACANNONEER
05-18-2009, 5:03 PM
Most PDs now have lower-than-surveyor-accuracy total stations to measure accident scenes. Their work can certainly be scrutinized and contested.

I personally have a problem with LE providing testimony in criminal matters in disciplines where state licensure exists, such as land surveying and engineering...

Unless there is line of site for the 1000 ft and it is measured in one shot, I highly doubt that an LEA (unless working under someone licensed to practice land surveying in Ca.) can legally run a traverse and the results will hold any weight at all. Then again, many judges pick and choose which laws they want to follow so, it could happen.

383green
05-18-2009, 6:01 PM
May 28th pre-trial. Alhambra court house.

Good luck, man! :thumbsup:

AlexDD
05-18-2009, 9:48 PM
I absolutely agree, PD has no expertise in accurate measurements of this type, based upon property lines and easements. Surely PD is competent in crime scene and accident scene measurements and that skill is very different than surveying. PD would not even know where to start to measure from! Lic surveyors / engineers are the only folks qualified to provide an accurate measurement in these circumstances. If the judge accepts the PD measurement in this case it would be an act of gross incompetence.

If you are talking about measuring fixed points or property line, the practice of such is outlined in the Professional Land Surveyor Act. One can not practice without a license. I would never accept a police officer's determination of a property line or boundary. Of course, hiring a land surveyor or RCE is not cheap other. Also, you do not know if the City Engineer's office has helped the PD determine such. Here is is definition from the act:

8726. Land surveying defined A person, including any person employed by the state or by a city, county, or city and county within the state, practices land surveying within the meaning of this chapter who, either in a public or private capacity, does or offers to do any one or more of the following:
2009 Professional Land Surveyors’ Act 5
(a) Locates, relocates, establishes, reestablishes, or retraces the alignment or elevation for any of the fixed works embraced within the practice of civil engineering, as described in Section 6731. (b) Determines the configuration or contour of the earth’s surface, or the position of fixed objects above, on, or below the surface of the earth by applying the principles of mathematics or photogrammetry.

(c) Locates, relocates, establishes, reestablishes, or retraces any property line or boundary of any parcel of land, right-of-way, easement, or alignment of those lines or boundaries.

(d) Makes any survey for the subdivision or resubdivision of any tract of land. For the purposes of this subdivision, the term “subdivision” or “resubdivision” shall be defined to include, but not limited to, the definition in the Subdivision Map Act (Division 2 (commencing with Section 66410) of Title 7 of the Government Code) or the Subdivided Lands Law (Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 11000) of Part 2 of Division 4 of this Code). (e) By the use of the principles of land surveying determines the position for any monument or reference point which marks a property line, boundary, or corner, or sets, resets, or replaces any such monument or reference point. (f) Geodetic or cadastral surveying. As used in this chapter, geodetic surveying means performing surveys, in which account is taken of the figure and size of the earth to determine or predetermine the horizontal or vertical positions of fixed objects thereon or related thereto, geodetic control points, monuments, or stations for use in the practice of land surveying or for stating the position of fixed objects, geodetic control points, monuments, or stations by California Coordinate System coordinates. (g) Determines the information shown or to be shown on any map or document prepared or furnished in connection with any one or more of the functions described in subdivisions (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), and (f). (h) Indicates, in any capacity or in any manner, by the use of the title “land surveyor” or by any other title or by any other representation that he or she practices or offers to practice land surveying in any of its branches. (i) Procures or offers to procure land surveying work for himself, herself, or others. (j) Manages, or conducts as manager, proprietor, or agent, any place of business from which land surveying work is solicited, performed or practiced. (k) Coordinates the work of professional, technical, or special consultants in connection with the activities authorized by this chapter. (l) Determines the information shown or to be shown within the description of any deed, trust deed, or other title document prepared for the purpose of describing the limit of real property in connection with any one or more of the functions described in subdivisions (a) to (f), inclusive. (m) Creates, prepares, or modifies electronic or computerized data in the performance of the activities described in subdivisions (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (k) and (l). (n) Renders a statement regarding the accuracy of maps or measured survey data. Any department or agency of the state or any city, county, or city and county that has an unregistered person in responsible charge of land surveying work on January 1, 1986, shall be exempt from the requirement that the person be licensed as a land surveyor until such time as the person currently in responsible charge is replaced.
2009 Professional 6 Land Surveyors’ Act
The review, approval, or examination by a governmental entity of documents prepared or performed pursuant to this section shall be done by, or under the direct supervision of, a person authorized to practice land surveying.

CSACANNONEER
05-19-2009, 5:07 AM
I jusr realized that if the PD was smart, they could possibly use the ceterline measurements found on RSs, PMs, MBs, CSBs, CEFBs, PWFBs,etc. to help them caluculate an APPROXIMATE measurement.

AlexDD
05-19-2009, 12:16 PM
Many cities have what are called geographic information systems (GIS).

These are digital lines, points and polygons that are linked to databases. The short of this is that many of these may have a digitally "orthorectified" aerial photo over which they lay the parcel lines on top. This means it has been corrected for flight errors and tied into the appropriate coordinate system.

Many cities have photos where a pixel on a screen equal 3" or 6" on the ground and an accurate parcel layer. One could easily measure on the system a 1,000 foot radius map from any property corner. While not good enough for real estate or subdivision map purposes, it may be good enough for a judge. Again, only a surveyor can determine a point in space on the ground for boundary purposes.

As an example, a map may be given by a Public Works Department to the Police Department to show where a City boundary runs through an intersection so they know who has jurisdiction.

To see one in action visit the City of LA at http://navigatela.lacity.org/index.cfm

GuyW
05-19-2009, 12:47 PM
is reading a tape measure a principle of mathematics?

Warning - geekiness content

Not sure exactly the thrust of your question.

It says, "by applying the principles of mathematics". Is the tape vertical or exactly horizontal, or does the angular discrepancy need to be accounted for by calculating the true vertical (or horizontal) distance? Engineering and surveying is based upon true vertical and true horizontal distances. (For example, the 1000 ft distance is not measured long the slope of the land - it is a true horizontal measurement)

How did the observer ID the correct measurement to read (did he visually extrapolate across a distance?, view from an angle?)? Was the end of the tape at the correct location when the reading was taken?

Was it necessary to make more than one measurement because of an obstruction between the 2 points? Was there an angular discrepancy between those measurements that needs to be mathematically calculated to arrive at the proper distance between the points?

Statistical concerns: (note: theoretically, we never know the exact true length. By repetition and proper methodology, we raise the probability that the error is sufficiently small so that the measurement is useful)

What is the accuracy and precision of one, or a series of tape measure readings?

How much human error occurred? What correction can we apply to account for it?

Materials engineering concerns:

Is the tape actually and physically longer due to temperature or tension effects? [measures short]

Did the tape sag? [measures long]

Is the tape accurately marked, and accurate under any condition at all? What correction factor(s) should be applied to get the best approximation of the "true" answer?

Multiply these questions by 2 for higher tech measurement techniques.
.

DDT
05-19-2009, 1:28 PM
It would be interesting to see if the officers post-contact report noted the presence of any school zone. It would be difficult to argue the Theseus could be reasonably expected to know he was in a GFSZ if even the cop didn't have enough suspicion to include a note in his report. If he was singled out for further investigation by a city attorney or senior officer because of his activism and not something to do with his activities or behavior at the time of the contact it could look very bad for the city.

pullnshoot25
05-19-2009, 2:03 PM
Warning - geekiness content

Not sure exactly the thrust of your question.

It says, "by applying the principles of mathematics". Is the tape vertical or exactly horizontal, or does the angular discrepancy need to be accounted for by calculating the true vertical (or horizontal) distance? Engineering and surveying is based upon true vertical and true horizontal distances. (For example, the 1000 ft distance is not measured long the slope of the land - it is a true horizontal measurement)

How did the observer ID the correct measurement to read (did he visually extrapolate across a distance?, view from an angle?)? Was the end of the tape at the correct location when the reading was taken?

Was it necessary to make more than one measurement because of an obstruction between the 2 points? Was there an angular discrepancy between those measurements that needs to be mathematically calculated to arrive at the proper distance between the points?

Statistical concerns: (note: theoretically, we never know the exact true length. By repetition and proper methodology, we raise the probability that the error is sufficiently small so that the measurement is useful)

What is the accuracy and precision of one, or a series of tape measure readings?

How much human error occurred? What correction can we apply to account for it?

Materials engineering concerns:

Is the tape actually and physically longer due to temperature or tension effects? [measures short]

Did the tape sag? [measures long]

Is the tape accurately marked, and accurate under any condition at all? What correction factor(s) should be applied to get the best approximation of the "true" answer?

Multiply these questions by 2 for higher tech measurement techniques.
.

GuyW, you are the man! I LOVE the way you think!

Curtis
05-19-2009, 2:04 PM
DDT - I'm sure follow up on a first contact with additional investigation is normal for police.

I know it happened to me. A detective called to say I could come pick up my guns. When I called back to schedule a time I was informed he was still investigating. When I said, "I thought the case was closed?" he responded with "So did I." He was instructed to pull up all the grid coordinates, property lines, etc. for the area to confirm my distance from highway and who's property I was on. The Lt. had talked about and suggested I could just leave my guns with the department, but when I started pushing the get them back the investigation suddenly came back to life with a formal recommendation to the DA for charges. DA declined to file.

CSACANNONEER
05-19-2009, 6:46 PM
is reading a tape measure a principle of mathematics?

Warning - geekiness content

Not sure exactly the thrust of your question.

It says, "by applying the principles of mathematics". Is the tape vertical or exactly horizontal, or does the angular discrepancy need to be accounted for by calculating the true vertical (or horizontal) distance? Engineering and surveying is based upon true vertical and true horizontal distances. (For example, the 1000 ft distance is not measured long the slope of the land - it is a true horizontal measurement)

How did the observer ID the correct measurement to read (did he visually extrapolate across a distance?, view from an angle?)? Was the end of the tape at the correct location when the reading was taken?

Was it necessary to make more than one measurement because of an obstruction between the 2 points? Was there an angular discrepancy between those measurements that needs to be mathematically calculated to arrive at the proper distance between the points?

Statistical concerns: (note: theoretically, we never know the exact true length. By repetition and proper methodology, we raise the probability that the error is sufficiently small so that the measurement is useful)

What is the accuracy and precision of one, or a series of tape measure readings?

How much human error occurred? What correction can we apply to account for it?

Materials engineering concerns:

Is the tape actually and physically longer due to temperature or tension effects? [measures short]

Did the tape sag? [measures long]

Is the tape accurately marked, and accurate under any condition at all? What correction factor(s) should be applied to get the best approximation of the "true" answer?

Multiply these questions by 2 for higher tech measurement techniques.
.

Great job!

Theseus
05-28-2009, 4:32 PM
Continued to Tuesday for the "Motion to suppress" hearing.

CitaDeL
05-28-2009, 4:52 PM
D'oh!

Theseus
05-28-2009, 5:02 PM
No CitaDel, that is a good thing. . . sort of.

The better thing is there is a new DA on the case. . . But you didn't hear that from me.

CSACANNONEER
05-28-2009, 5:05 PM
No CitaDel, that is a good thing. . . sort of.

The better thing is there is a new DA on the case. . . But you didn't hear that from me.

Haha! the old one must not have wanted the loss on his/her record!

N6ATF
05-28-2009, 7:53 PM
The new one could score some points by holding a press conference dismissing charges in the interest of justice, as well as releasing an amici for whenever we want to strike down GFSZs.

Theseus
05-28-2009, 8:10 PM
I am just happy I am so close to the end! I can't wait for the insanity of this to end so that I can sue them and get your and my money back.

hoffmang
05-28-2009, 8:13 PM
I am just happy I am so close to the end! I can't wait for the insanity of this to end so that I can sue them and get your and my money back.

Keep your hopes of recovering money here tempered.

-Gene

Theseus
05-28-2009, 8:26 PM
Keep your hopes of recovering money here tempered.

-Gene
I can still hope! Ha ha.

But I thought with a Federal Civil Rights suit I could recuperate lawyers fees?

That is all I want. . oh, and a public apology, 1st born, CCW license. . . .Haha..

hoffmang
05-28-2009, 8:33 PM
I can still hope! Ha ha.

But I thought with a Federal Civil Rights suit I could recuperate lawyers fees?

That is all I want. . oh, and a public apology, 1st born, CCW license. . . .Haha..

Let me just say that its quite complicated. Believe you me that I'd like you to be able to recover as it would put bucks back into the Foundation, but I'm just warning that it is a lot more complex than it looks - especially here in California.

-Gene

Theseus
05-28-2009, 8:46 PM
I thought that is why you file in Federal court? Oh well, for now I am more worried with not loosing. I will worry more about the money after that.

E Pluribus Unum
05-28-2009, 8:49 PM
I thought that is why you file in Federal court? Oh well, for now I am more worried with not loosing. I will worry more about the money after that.

The Federal 9th circuit is still chalked full of California judges.

Judges are politically unbiased... right? :rolleyes:

Theseus
05-28-2009, 8:55 PM
The one thing I regret is that I didn't have the full funds myself.

I saved up a good amount, but it goes away quick when you are out of work long enough.

I fear that because of this I won't be able to OC merely because I can't afford to do this again.

I am already surprised my wife hasn't left me yet. . . Figured cashing out our savings for this surely would have been the end of it.

demnogis
05-29-2009, 8:22 AM
I hope that when you're relieved of this burden it can be used as ammo to fight GFSZ laws.

mblat
05-29-2009, 8:27 AM
The one thing I regret is that I didn't have the full funds myself.

I saved up a good amount, but it goes away quick when you are out of work long enough.

I fear that because of this I won't be able to OC merely because I can't afford to do this again.

I am already surprised my wife hasn't left me yet. . . Figured cashing out our savings for this surely would have been the end of it.

Believe it or not this isn't all THAT surprising. Women like MAN, leaders. She may be pissed of about money, but her sub-conscience tells her "he is real man, he'll get it back"

Matt C
05-29-2009, 8:27 AM
Let me just say that its quite complicated. Believe you me that I'd like you to be able to recover as it would put bucks back into the Foundation, but I'm just warning that it is a lot more complex than it looks - especially here in California.

-Gene

+10000000

Sorry man, but that's just how it goes.

The one thing I regret is that I didn't have the full funds myself.

I saved up a good amount, but it goes away quick when you are out of work long enough.

No worries, that's what the community is here for.

[QUOTE=Theseus;2549281]
I fear that because of this I won't be able to OC merely because I can't afford to do this again.


I can't afford another legal battle over my rights either, but I still have OLLs. ;)

Theseus
06-02-2009, 10:21 AM
Continued until Thursday.

383green
06-02-2009, 10:26 AM
Thanks for the update.

Are these continuances good, or even reasonable? Here in the peanut gallery where we're not privy to what's going on in court each time, it sure seems like a whole lot of nothing is happening, and taking a long time to do it. I guess I'm just curious about whether anything of consequence was discussed or done today regarding the case. Don't answer if it would be unwise to do so.

Theseus
06-02-2009, 11:23 AM
They can be for many reasons. Judge has a trial case, DA doesn't show up, witnesses don't show, subpoenas don't go out on time. . .

383green
06-02-2009, 11:35 AM
Thank you for the explanation. I won't pry further for details, as I have no need to know them. I'm just curious, not to mention anxious to hear some good news. It sounds like the process would be awfully frustrating to somebody with my lack of patience and my desire to move with purpose.

Theseus
06-02-2009, 11:42 AM
And I wish I could tell them. Don't worry though. It will be over soon enough.

Letitrip
06-02-2009, 10:20 PM
Keep us post on this. My thoughts are with you man.

Theseus
06-03-2009, 7:01 PM
I know Bruce would advise against it, but after what happened on Tuesday I am even more optimistic about my chances of success in my case than I was prior to that! :party:

Hey. . . sometimes you just need to celebrate the small victories!

383green
06-03-2009, 7:23 PM
I'm looking forward to hearing the whole story someday!

Theseus
06-04-2009, 10:04 AM
I love this stuff! Today was another continued day, but we make progressive steps. The case is now getting exciting, and again I wish I could tell you why.

Tomorrow, 9:30AM. Actual trial possibly next week.

Matt C
06-04-2009, 10:06 AM
I love this stuff! Today was another continued day, but we make progressive steps. The case is now getting exciting, and again I wish I could tell you why.

Tomorrow, 9:30AM. Actual trial possibly next week.

Good luck man, let me know if you need moral support or someone to get drunk with.

Glock22Fan
06-04-2009, 10:06 AM
I love this stuff! Today was another continued day, but we make progressive steps. The case is now getting exciting, and again I wish I could tell you why.

Tomorrow, 9:30AM. Actual trial possibly next week.

Justice delayed is poor justice.

Good luck and hoping for a speedy settlement in your favor.

rkt88edmo
06-04-2009, 10:08 AM
You are bloggin it all down in posts yet to be revealed I hope, capture that excitement :)

383green
06-04-2009, 10:16 AM
Hang in there man! I would sure think that continuation after continuation would drive me nuts, but from your reaction here I guess these continuations must be external symptoms of things which are setting your mind more at ease. I'm crossing my fingers that we'll all be having a festive "Theseus acquittal" or "Theseus charges dropped" party soon!

demnogis
06-04-2009, 10:17 AM
I sure hope the unconstitutionality of 626.9 is being argued :)

+1 on the acquittal party!

Liberty1
06-04-2009, 3:53 PM
I love this stuff...The case is now getting exciting...Actual trial possibly next week.

LOL I wish I could be this cavalier with my liberty and poss. denial of gun rights:rolleyes:

Here's to crossed fingers, a prayer, and Bruce giving them AH E double el !!! :chris: (with the thor's hammer of calgunner resolve held in reserve)

Letitrip
06-05-2009, 9:41 AM
So next week huh? Man I hate the suspense. Kudos to you for being so good about it though.

Please continue to keep us posted with any information that you are comfortable disclosing.

jazman
06-05-2009, 9:44 AM
[QUOTE=Liberty1;2583609]LOL I wish I could be this cavalier with my liberty and poss. denial of gun rights:rolleyes:

This is what I have been thinking. What will be the penalty if you lose?

Theseus
06-05-2009, 5:59 PM
Up to 1 year in jail and 10 years prohibition on firearms ownership.

It is likely that it is not enforceable in other states, so I would only need to move after jail, if any.

So, the motion to suppress was denied.

I am sharing this again, because it is matter of public record.

We lost the motion to suppress because of legal merit. Although the grounds of our motion to suppress was agreeable to the court, the court did not see what, if anything could be suppressed that would have effected the case in any way and therefore denied it. That is my unprofessional understanding of what happened.

I will say no more about the events as further would not really be public record or might show our hand.

Next court date Monday, June 8th, 2009, 1:30PM.

bigcalidave
06-05-2009, 9:41 PM
Good luck!

M198
06-05-2009, 10:55 PM
Does this mean you won't be coming to the SD open carry get together? ;)

Noobert
06-08-2009, 8:36 PM
GOOD LUCK!:thumbsup:

Theseus
06-08-2009, 9:09 PM
Oh, I forgot. Trailed for Wen. 1:30PM. Jury instructions ruling.

CitaDeL
06-08-2009, 9:32 PM
Oh, I forgot. Trailed for Wen. 1:30PM. Jury instructions ruling.

We're still rooting for you, Theseus. Hoping for the best...:thumbsup:

anthonyca
06-08-2009, 9:38 PM
40g? Holy ##$% for a misdemeanor? I wish my buddy that comes to my house in a school zone with a rifle unlocked under his seat would listen to me about this $#@#. He is going to be LEO and this would squash that. They think I am paranoid and this only happens to criminals.

bigtoe416
06-08-2009, 11:35 PM
40g? Holy ##$% for a misdemeanor? I wish my buddy that comes to my house in a school zone with a rifle unlocked under his seat would listen to me about this $#@#. He is going to be LEO and this would squash that. They think I am paranoid and this only happens to criminals.

Pretty sure that's completely legal as far as state law is concerned (assuming the rifle isn't loaded). Rifles are unconcealable weapons, so they don't have to be locked up inside school zones like handguns do (again, not counting the unconstitutional federal school zone law).

Theseus
06-09-2009, 7:43 AM
That and they have to be legally transported. . . something that also has not been defined.

Matt C
06-16-2009, 9:16 AM
Update?

demnogis
06-16-2009, 10:39 AM
What be the word, good man?

Liberty1
06-16-2009, 3:43 PM
I think that there will be some news even if it is just "continued untill..." in the next several days.

and keep sending in those donations (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/component/content/article/36-current-legal-cases/67-donate-to-theseus-open-carry-case)!!! Thank you! ;):79:

anthonyca
06-16-2009, 5:06 PM
I need to know. Anything new?

Letitrip
06-16-2009, 6:15 PM
Man, I'm really rooting for you. I hope it all ends well.

Letitrip
06-17-2009, 10:36 PM
So if I read correctly, the trial was today. Any updates?

yellowfin
06-18-2009, 4:27 AM
Countersue for $2M?

sfpcservice
06-18-2009, 9:05 AM
Hopefully he's partying like it's 1999 and the DA is saying "looks like I'll have to make a name for myself on another case".

GenLee
06-18-2009, 9:34 AM
No news is good news? I hope?

MonsterMan
06-18-2009, 12:37 PM
Update? I can't wait. :)

N6ATF
06-18-2009, 1:30 PM
No news is good news? I hope?

Well, he's not in the LA County inmate search (http://app4.lasd.org/iic/ajis_search.cfm).

ChrisSig
06-18-2009, 1:32 PM
What happened?!

Letitrip
06-18-2009, 5:33 PM
Damned, the suspense is killing me. I am hoping for the best.

TheBundo
06-18-2009, 11:00 PM
Well, he's not in the LA County inmate search (http://app4.lasd.org/iic/ajis_search.cfm).

They must have sent him to Guantanamo

tyrist
06-18-2009, 11:03 PM
Well, he's not in the LA County inmate search (http://app4.lasd.org/iic/ajis_search.cfm).

Even if found guilty he would be released till sentencing; so no booking.

N6ATF
06-18-2009, 11:06 PM
They must have sent him to Guantanamo

Doubtful he could be tortured there for daring to defend himself. Extraordinary rendition to somewhere further away, probably.

Even if found guilty he would be released till sentencing; so no booking.

Just trying to rule out reasons for silence. Release would allow him to communicate to the world. Unless there was an unbelievable gag order against him, his counsel, his family, and anyone else he could have relay the info, it should be forthcoming.

Matt C
06-18-2009, 11:55 PM
He might have been told to STFU by his lawyer for some reason.

N6ATF
06-18-2009, 11:58 PM
He might have been told to STFU by his lawyer for some reason.

Presto-change-o!

I have been told to STFU by my lawyer for some reason.

Theseus
06-20-2009, 5:11 PM
Oh. . . Um. . . I took a vacation to visit my dad before his not 6th deployment to Iraq. Had to see him. This time he is going to be in Baghdad just outside the green zone in some "Fort Apache". . . Had to make sure we got to say what needed saying in case.

I just got back today. . . next date is 6/26/09. It is a hearing to hammer out the jury instructions.

nick
06-20-2009, 5:50 PM
Well, he's not in the LA County inmate search (http://app4.lasd.org/iic/ajis_search.cfm).

I don't think they go by Calguns handles... :rolleyes:

SimpleCountryActuary
06-20-2009, 7:40 PM
Oh. . . Um. . . I took a vacation to visit my dad before his not 6th deployment to Iraq. Had to see him. This time he is going to be in Baghdad just outside the green zone in some "Fort Apache". . . Had to make sure we got to say what needed saying in case.

I just got back today. . . next date is 6/26/09. It is a hearing to hammer out the jury instructions.

:79:

A salute to your father on the eve of Father's day, fighting for our rights ... all of them.

Liberty1
06-20-2009, 8:19 PM
I don't think they go by Calguns handles... :rolleyes:


Actually yes, we enter you gang affiliation as Calguns with your identifying "moniker" :p

Spabs
06-20-2009, 9:05 PM
Actually yes, we enter you gang affiliation as Calguns with your identifying "moniker" :p

Does this mean I should get SPABS tattooed across the back of my neck in old english/gothic font?

N6ATF
06-20-2009, 9:11 PM
Oh. . . Um. . . I took a vacation to visit my dad before his not 6th deployment to Iraq. Had to see him. This time he is going to be in Baghdad just outside the green zone in some "Fort Apache". . . Had to make sure we got to say what needed saying in case.

I just got back today. . . next date is 6/26/09. It is a hearing to hammer out the jury instructions.

So they decided to prosecute anyway, and that's quite a delay between trial and JI/deliberations.

I don't think they go by Calguns handles... :rolleyes:

Names can be found if one looks hard enough. :rolleyes:

paladin4415
06-20-2009, 9:12 PM
Does this mean I should get SPABS tattooed across the back of my neck in old english/gothic font?

No...but you should get it tattooed in six inch letters on your stomach. ;)

383green
06-20-2009, 9:29 PM
Does this mean I should get SPABS tattooed across the back of my neck in old english/gothic font?

Yes. Also, a teardrop next to one of your eyes for each thread you posted in that was later locked. :p

Theseus
06-21-2009, 9:04 AM
Um...My name is made pretty public by other posts here.

Theseus
06-26-2009, 11:50 AM
A very bad day today. I will discuss the situation with the "right people" and determine what, if any details I can and will provide.

Let me just say that the court is re-writing law.

Untamed1972
06-26-2009, 11:52 AM
A very bad day today. I will discuss the situation with the "right people" and determine what, if any details I can and will provide.

Let me just say that the court is re-writing law.

:(:(:(

boxbro
06-26-2009, 12:00 PM
A very bad day today. I will discuss the situation with the "right people" and determine what, if any details I can and will provide.

Let me just say that the court is re-writing law.

Sorry to hear that man.
It'll be a good day when the system starts to go after the real bad guys.
The school zone law is such BS.
We all know that anyone willing to break the law, and all common morality, to shoot at people/kids in schools, certainly isn't going to be deterred by such a stupid law.
If a criminal isn't going to be deterred by the jail time he faces for murder or attempted murder, how in the world is he going to be deterred by a law with far lesser consequences.

When I see stupidity in government at any level, I always think of a quote from Mark Twain:

"All Congresses and Parliaments have a kindly feeling for idiots, and a compassion for them, on account of personal experience and heredity."

Flintlock Tom
06-26-2009, 12:32 PM
Sorry to hear that, however, if a judge acts in a manner which appears to contradict a clear reading of the law wouldn't that provide a firm platform for appeal?

N6ATF
06-26-2009, 12:45 PM
:ack2:

Untamed1972
06-26-2009, 1:03 PM
Sorry to hear that, however, if a judge acts in a manner which appears to contradict a clear reading of the law wouldn't that provide a firm platform for appeal?

And appeals are what get stupid laws struck down, like arbitrarily banning the transport or carry of certain items, that one has a constitutional right to carry, on public streets and sidewalks because they happen to be within an arbitrary distance of a school.

Are they going to start banning free speech in school zones too? I know they're already banning free speech ON the school grounds, but why not include the 1000ft school zone in the limited speech area. We can call them "indoctrination zones." Heck....why not suspend 4A in school zones too....that way the COPs can search everyone and everything in a school zone "to protect the children".

School zones = the new constitution free zones

boxbro
06-26-2009, 1:28 PM
Heck....why not suspend 4A in school zones too....that way the COPs can search everyone and everything in a school zone "to protect the children".

School zones = the new constitution free zones

It's pretty much already like that if your a student.
They strip searched a girl looking for ibuprofen. :eek:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090625/ap_on_go_su_co/us_supreme_court_strip_search
At least SCOTUS ruled it was Illegal but at the same time they ruled that the officials could not be held financially liable. :mad:

1BigPea
06-26-2009, 1:39 PM
A very bad day today. I will discuss the situation with the "right people" and determine what, if any details I can and will provide.

Let me just say that the court is re-writing law.


Ugh...really!? :(

Theseus
06-26-2009, 1:52 PM
Ok, so the basic happenings of today are that the judge, in uncharacteristic fashion, ruled that I can not use a private property defense because the property was open to the public and therefore was not intended by the legislature to be exempt and protected.

This means that if loose the trial or plead guilty and then loose an appeal then it becomes the law of the land and I am still prohibited from defending my family against harm, even in my home for a period of at least 10 years.

If I win the appeal then all we have is a huge bill and case law saying exactly what the law says now, that private property is exempt.

So I have a really tough decision to make. Do I forget my families well being and safety and take one for the team to prevent making bad law, or so I look out for the interests of me and mine.

I hope none of you ever have to make such a decision because it is not a comfortable place to be.

RP1911
06-26-2009, 1:53 PM
It will cost beaucoup $s to apeal and the system knows that. I suspect this might/could be an indirect message to discourage UOC.

This is conjecture on my part pending details.

Untamed1972
06-26-2009, 1:57 PM
It's pretty much already like that if your a student.
They strip searched a girl looking for ibuprofen. :eek:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090625/ap_on_go_su_co/us_supreme_court_strip_search
At least SCOTUS ruled it was Illegal but at the same time they ruled that the officials could not be held financially liable. :mad:

"While children's advocates and civil liberties groups cheered the decision, others suggested the high court may have created further problems for school systems by failing to make clear exactly when school administrators can strip search students and when they can't."

When can school personnel strip search a child? How about NEVER!!!!! At least not without parental consent and the parent being present during the search.

Can't be held financially liable? That's fine.....just charge them with some type of sexual assault against a minor under color of authority for forcing them to remove their clothing.

I am so glad I don't have kids!!! All this stuff is just gettin' out of control and absurd.

Theseus
06-26-2009, 1:58 PM
You, you are entirely right. The DA argued specifically that open carry should not be protected.

It will cost beaucoup $s to apeal and the system knows that. I suspect this might/could be an indirect message to discourage UOC.

This is conjecture on my part pending details.

Untamed1972
06-26-2009, 2:03 PM
Ok, so the basic happenings of today are that the judge, in uncharacteristic fashion, ruled that I can not use a private property defense because the property was open to the public and therefore was not intended by the legislature to be exempt and protected.

Is that stance related to that case in Oakland I think it was where the gangbanger was in the front yard of an apartment complex and tried to use the "private property" exemption for having a concealed weapon? The court in that case said that if it was open to public access then it wasn't considered private property?

That reminds me.....I need to put the fence around my front yard.

Untamed1972
06-26-2009, 2:04 PM
You, you are entirely right. The DA argued specifically that open carry should not be protected.

It should not be protected even though CA provides no other legal means of carry?

Thanks DA.....glad you respect the constitution. :(

sfpcservice
06-26-2009, 2:05 PM
Theseus, I can't fathom the position you are now in. I think you have to do what you feel is best for your family, which could be either course of action depending on your point of view. The decision is yours and I don't think it would be appropriate for anyone to pass judgment.