PDA

View Full Version : ...


DedEye
01-03-2009, 12:47 PM
...

madjack956
01-03-2009, 1:01 PM
I have gone through the same thing with some companies. I am in Orange County. I can find no law on the books prohibiting ammo sales. I have called a few companies and asked them why they exclude OC when other companies ship to me. I am told it was the companies decision. I basically get shut down from there. So. I just don't buy any items they sell in the future..

LOW2000
01-03-2009, 1:09 PM
The OC refusal I think is a confusion of the L.A. Co. ban on online sales and Orange County, N.J. also prohibiting online sales and the companies confuse the two.

RRangel
01-03-2009, 2:56 PM
The OC refusal I think is a confusion of the L.A. Co. ban on online sales and Orange County, N.J. also prohibiting online sales and the companies confuse the two.

What LA county ban on online sales? Never heard of it.

Librarian
01-03-2009, 3:17 PM
Napa county ordinances are online at
http://www.co.napa.ca.us/code2000/maintoc.htm
I looked, too, and I see nothing about ammunition at all.

City of Napa Municipal code is at
http://74.205.120.199/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=49
I see nothing there about ammunition sales.

One can find Los Angeles County code at
http://municipalcodes.lexisnexis.com/#CA
I looked there also, and didn't see anything about ammunition.

CITY of Los Angeles Municipal codes are at
http://www.amlegal.com/los_angeles_ca/
LA does restrict sales by date, in 55.09 (b) Except as specified in Subsection (c) and (d), no person, including retail gun dealers, shall sell, give, lend or transfer ownership of any firearm ammunition during the period of seven days prior to the first day of January of each year or on the first day of January of each year, or during the seven days prior to the Fourth of July of each year or on the Fourth of July of each year.(just to tie to a different thread.) and 55.11 is the "ID the Buyer on the official form" law, which has the effect of eliminating on-line or other than retail-store sales within the city.

I'd guess the sellers are making the simplifying assumption that City of LA == LA County, like City of SF == SF County.

glockman19
01-03-2009, 3:23 PM
Napa county ordinances are online at
http://www.co.napa.ca.us/code2000/maintoc.htm
I looked, too, and I see nothing about ammunition at all.

City of Napa Municipal code is at
http://74.205.120.199/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=49
I see nothing there about ammunition sales.

One can find Los Angeles County code at
http://municipalcodes.lexisnexis.com/#CA
I looked there also, and didn't see anything about ammunition.

CITY of Los Angeles Municipal codes are at
http://www.amlegal.com/los_angeles_ca/
LA does restrict sales by date, in 55.09(just to tie to a different thread.) and 55.11 is the "ID the Buyer on the official form" law, which has the effect of eliminating on-line or other than retail-store sales within the city.

I'd guess the sellers are making the simplifying assumption that City of LA == LA County, like City of SF == SF County.

This is good info and should be "sticky" for future ammos shipping issues.

LOW2000
01-03-2009, 3:51 PM
What LA county ban on online sales? Never heard of it.

You're right, I misspoke, it is LA City, not County, in fact, I lived in LA Co and had ammo shipped to me.

HowardW56
01-03-2009, 3:53 PM
What LA county ban on online sales? Never heard of it.

Thats news to me... Now where is that UPS driver?

RRangel
01-03-2009, 4:14 PM
You're right, I misspoke, it is LA City, not County, in fact, I lived in LA Co and had ammo shipped to me.

LA city still does not have a ban on online sales to my knowledge.

LOW2000
01-03-2009, 4:40 PM
LA city still does not have a ban on online sales to my knowledge.

Not an actual ban, but in practice, you can't.

RRangel
01-04-2009, 9:42 AM
Not an actual ban, but in practice, you can't.

Ammunition is not illegal to posses in Los Angeles city. The city cannot control what sellers outside the city do. If the possession of ammunition was outright banned as are drugs I could understand how they can prevent online sales, but as it is, no.

RRangel
01-04-2009, 10:19 AM
Does anyone know anything about this? Many online stores (never known for being that up on laws anyway, but still) list Napa as one of the California counties they can't ship ammo to. I searched county ordinances though and see no laws regarding online ammo sales.

Anyone have any insight? I haven't tried ordering from any of these places yet, but will have to call them as well and see what they say.

Another question I have is how is it technically possible for a county or city to ban mail order or online sale of a legal product especially outside their jurisdiction? Is banning mail order or online orders legal? They can pass a law banning possession of such items, but as it is that would probably not get past state preemption. I think many out of state sellers have given into FUD regardless of whether actual items are banned or not.

Librarian
01-04-2009, 10:42 AM
Another question I have is how is it technically possible for a county or city to ban mail order or online sale of a legal product especially outside their jurisdiction? Is banning mail order or online orders legal? They can pass a law banning possession of such items, but as it is that would probably not get past state preemption. I think many out of state sellers have given into FUD regardless of whether actual items are banned or not.

The governments don't seem to be doing that, that is, say "all mail order or internet sales are forbidden".

Rather, they say something like "all sales within our jurisdiction are subject to the following conditions: sellers must record buyer's info on our-special-form plus buyer's fingerprint plus photocopy of buyer's ID and submit it all to our PD", which out of jurisdiction sellers cannot meet.

Same effect, which is intentional.

RRangel
01-04-2009, 12:05 PM
The governments don't seem to be doing that, that is, say "all mail order or internet sales are forbidden".

Rather, they say something like "all sales within our jurisdiction are subject to the following conditions: sellers must record buyer's info on our-special-form plus buyer's fingerprint plus photocopy of buyer's ID and submit it all to our PD", which out of jurisdiction sellers cannot meet.

Same effect, which is intentional.

Yes, but how can they actually hold out of jurisdiction sellers responsible for selling a legal product? That is a question I would like answered. Unfortunately it does not look like the new Los Angeles codes are published online yet. I would like to see the codified technical details as well as penalties for receiving a legal product vial mail order. Hopefully this overzealous law can meet the same fate as the "series" ban. The "all sales within our jurisdiction are subject to..." talk seems to be the same kind of ambiguity that comes from Sacramento.

NoSmoke
10-22-2009, 8:09 PM
I can't find any recent laws in Orange County having to do with online ammo sales and shipments. Yet, an online company that I have purchased from many times, has now deleted two of my recent orders, claiming "no ammo sales to Orange County". The company is Ballistic Products.com.

I think a lot of these online sellers just copy each others sales policies because the boneheads are too lazy to actually verify the law. Some idiot got it wrong, and several other idiots follow like sheep.

I've sent several emails asking them to do their research and verify the law, but I get no response. Sales are obviously too good for them to be concerned about one county. Maybe it will change when the demand for ammo falls back to normal, or even less than normal, because everyone has stocked up to the hilt.

Since July, I've placed 6 online orders with Bass Pro Shops.com. It takes a couple of months to get the 9mm I ordered, but they keep shipping it.
Atleast there's a few companies that are not brain dead!

If you feel the same as I do, how about writing an email to the guys at Ballistic Products.com and telling them their policy is twisted?

djm315
10-22-2009, 8:47 PM
Napa county and city have no ordinance restricting ammo which is why stores like cabelas and such ship ammo to me, i have been arguing with sportsmans guide for awhile about ammo restrictions and gun parts that they wont ship to me for no good reason. they state that it is too hard to keep up with all of the cali laws so they just dont do it

CenterX
10-22-2009, 9:04 PM
You must be in 94559 AC. Cabela's will not ship to 94558.

Sportsman's representative said I needed to contact their lawyer. Their Lawyer said he got a call from an official but wouldn't give me a name. Total pumped up nuts. BOYCOT Sportsman's! And Cheeper than Dirt as well.
So, Ammo Bank, Silver State Armory, Able Ammo and Buffalo Bore to name a couple that do ship. They are out their, you just have to keep looking.

a1c
10-22-2009, 9:54 PM
I've seen that Napa County restriction as well on some online ammo merchants' website, often also listing Yolo County. Can't explain it either.

BigDogatPlay
10-22-2009, 11:40 PM
94558 is the post office at Spanish Flat Resort on Lake Berryessa. Kind of out in the middle of almost nowhere and not exactly a full service location. Everyone and anyone in that zip code would be exceptionally rural and lots of usually unoccupied vacation homes, so heaven knows what the rationale for no ship might be on the part of the vendors doing it.

But there is no ban by ordinance in any incorporated city in Napa County, or by the county itself, that I am aware of.

Mssr. Eleganté
10-22-2009, 11:58 PM
Some of these city and county prohibitions are not laws at all, but rather agreements between a vendor and a city/county. I know that some of the Sportsman's Guide restrictions involve city attorneys promising not to file civil suits in certain cases if Sportsman's Guide agreed to stop shipping certain items to their city/county. I suspect, as another poster suggested above, that other vendors are just copy/pasting the shipping restrictions of bigger vendors to play it safe and to avoid the cost of hiring their own lawyers.

snobord99
10-23-2009, 12:12 AM
Yes, but how can they actually hold out of jurisdiction sellers responsible for selling a legal product? That is a question I would like answered.

An out of jurisdiction seller is physically out of LA, but they still have to comply by LA laws. If the law in LA is that ammo shipped to somewhere in LA can only be shipped to a monkey that can scratch both his balls and his head while tiptoeing across the hood of a Honda Civic and you send it to a monkey that can scratch both his balls and his head but not while tiptoeing across said hood, you've broken this law in LA. The seller may not have been here, but they still broke the law here.

A guy in Nigeria who sends you a fake email and gets your banking info and then uses that info to empty your bank account without ever leaving Nigeria is still breaking U.S. laws and subject to prosecution here whether or not Nigeria has laws against such phishing schemes.

The only real difference may be the feasibility of enforcement. The U.S. may have a harder time extraditing the guy in Nigeria than LA probably would in getting the cops in Ohio (or wherever) to arrest a guy who has a warrant on them in LA.

dwtt
10-23-2009, 9:34 AM
Does anyone know anything about this? Many online stores (never known for being that up on laws anyway, but still) list Napa as one of the California counties they can't ship ammo to. I searched county ordinances though and see no laws regarding online ammo sales.

Which online stores are you referring to?
Centerfire Systems doesn't list Napa county. http://www.centerfiresystems.com/ammunition.aspx

J&G Sales doesn't list Napa county. http://www.jgsales.com/faq.php?osCsid=357cfb5aa6091543cad5a8f916554437

Midway doesn't list Napa County.

Outdoors Marksman ( Miwall) doesn't list Napa County. http://www.outdoormarksman.com/index.php?cPath=65_1_10

A1 Ammo doesn't list Napa County. http://www.a1ammo.com/

Ammoman doesn't list Napa County. http://www.ammoman.com/webstore_terms_of_use.htm

Where are you buying ammo from?