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View Full Version : 2Qs: Heller-Nordyke and: (1) Gun Stores, and (2) WalMart


Paladin
01-03-2009, 6:43 AM
The post re HSC requirements and the "ban by excessive regulation" tactic (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=142080) made me remember the much beloved and missed SF Gun Exchange and Siegle's Gun Store. (Traders is now among the living dead). For some history, see:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/07/13/MN89677.DTL&type=printable
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/14110/edition_id/273/format/html/displaystory.html

My Two Questions:

(1) Will Heller via Nordyke stop targeted local taxes that drive gun stores out of business?

(2) After incorporation of Heller via Nordyke, if we CGN'ers (and the NRA?) launch a campaign to get Wal-Marts in the SF Bay Area to sell guns and ammo again, will they be more willing agree? For more info, see:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103875

hoffmang
01-03-2009, 8:05 AM
My Two Questions:

(1) Will Heller via Nordyke stop targeted local taxes that drive gun stores out of business?
The general answer is yes. Taxes that are not evenly collected on all general businesses are proscribed against commerce in fundamental rights. A close example to this is Minneapolis Star v. Minnesota Commissioner of Revenue (http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1982/1982_81_1839/).


(2) After incorporation of Heller via Nordyke, if we CGN'ers (and the NRA?) launch a campaign to get Wal-Marts in the SF Bay Area to sell guns and ammo again, will they be more willing agree? For more info, see:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103875
No idea on this one. Private businesses like Walmart have all sorts of calculations that go in. Remember that this area is hostile to even their existence - much less their selling of firearms.

-Gene

Paladin
01-03-2009, 10:45 AM
Thanks Gene.

A follow up question: I assume in the past they were upheld despite our state's preemption law. After Heller-Nordyke, will our RKBA in this state be so strong that those anti-RKBA local tax ordinances constructively fall under that same state preemption law?

Re. Wal-Mart: sure, it will still ultimately be a business decision. But after Heller-Nordyke, the legal risk will have diminished to the point of irrelevance in making that decision. Thus, the business decision will be based upon political, MSM PR, and financial considerations. Presumably, the financial decision is a "yes," since they choose to sell guns & ammo at other stores. That leaves political and MSM PR considerations. Perhaps CGN and the NRA in a year or two might be able to get Wal-Mart to bite the political/MSM PR bullet (pun intended), if we can convince them we'll significantly improve their finances by buying from them.

IMO, a ton more newbies and their kids will be exposed to guns & ammo at Wal-Mart than would ever go to the few gun stores remaining in the Bay Area.

sorensen440
01-03-2009, 10:51 AM
Walmart's decision was more political then anything else IIRC.

BitterVoter
01-03-2009, 12:29 PM
The fact is the even in my area some Wal-Marts don't even sell ammunition, but others sell ammunition, scopes, and other great sporting accessories indicates to me that either the store/regional managers are given large amounts of power in this regard, or there is some other influence bigger than Wal-Mart corporate at work here.

I am pretty sure myself that if the legal issues regarding it go away it might be upon us at that time to influence them to sell them AND maybe accept OC!! Hay hay!

hoffmang
01-03-2009, 12:33 PM
A follow up question: I assume in the past they were upheld despite our state's preemption law. After Heller-Nordyke, will our RKBA in this state be so strong that those anti-RKBA local tax ordinances constructively fall under that same state preemption law?

These taxes are not pre-empted. They'll have to be litigated once or twice to show that the 2A via the 14A restricts the unequal treatment of firearms. Standard city and statewide sales tax may apply but a specific tax on ammo or firearms can't stand any level of heightened scrutiny.

Re. Wal-Mart: sure, it will still ultimately be a business decision. But after Heller-Nordyke, the legal risk will have diminished to the point of irrelevance in making that decision. Thus, the business decision will be based upon political, MSM PR, and financial considerations. Presumably, the financial decision is a "yes," since they choose to sell guns & ammo at other stores. That leaves political and MSM PR considerations. Perhaps CGN and the NRA in a year or two might be able to get Wal-Mart to bite the political/MSM PR bullet (pun intended), if we can convince them we'll significantly improve their finances by buying from them.

I've made the trek to sit in the crappy chairs in Arkansas. CGN will not get Walmart's attention. NRA however...

-Gene

motorhead
01-03-2009, 1:00 PM
wally's decides (don't know on what level) which stores sell ammo. in s.d. county, most don't, only 3 that i know of.

nicki
01-03-2009, 4:21 PM
Alot has to do with local climate I guess.

Walmart in Fremont doesn't sell ammo, but the Walmart in Milpitas does.

As far as selling guns, I don't see that happening in California just becuase of paperwork involved on all gun transactions.

It doesn't take much to screw up.

Nicki

DDT
01-03-2009, 4:53 PM
These taxes are not pre-empted. They'll have to be litigated once or twice to show that the 2A via the 14A restricts the unequal treatment of firearms. Standard city and statewide sales tax may apply but a specific tax on ammo or firearms can't stand any level of heightened scrutiny.

This seems like a slam dunk (an expensive slam dunk though) even without Nordyke. I would think that Heller is adequate on its own and standing should be a piece of cake as I'm sure any business owner so impacted would be more than happy to participate. Money, on the other hand, is always scarce and the reason the government gets away with this stuff, you can't easily recover court costs and they can just dip into the general fund to beat you down. Then raise taxes to replenish the general fund.

ZRX61
01-03-2009, 6:04 PM
Alot has to do with local climate I guess.

Walmart in Fremont doesn't sell ammo, but the Walmart in Milpitas does.

As far as selling guns, I don't see that happening in California just becuase of paperwork involved on all gun transactions.

It doesn't take much to screw up.

Nicki

Up in the Landscatter/Crimedale area we have at least 5 WallyWorlds & 1 Sams Club. I remember seeing guns for sale in the central Palmdale location, but they closed that store & built a new SuperWally 1/2 mile away that doesn't appear to have guns. If they do, they aren't anywhere near the ammo.
In the central Lancaster SuperWally I haven't seen guns & I'm unsure if the original store next door did or not.
I was at the central Lancaster Super Wally today & the ammo cabinet was just about empty....They had ONE 50ct box of Winchester 165gr JHP S&W .40& that was the extent of the handgun ammo that I saw...I left without spending any $$$

& if the Sams Club locations are for bulk buying.. how about pallets of ammo? ;)

Nodda Duma
01-03-2009, 6:45 PM
Even in Ridgecrest I haven't seen guns for sale in the Wal-Mart here in years...and if guns were to be sold in a Wal-Mart anywhere in CA, it'd be here (or maybe Needles).

-Jason

ldivinag
01-04-2009, 1:57 AM
IIRC wallyworld made a deal with alameda county to stop selling ammo so they can open stores in oakland and other parts that they dont have a presence in...

hence no ammo in fremont, but 5 minutes away via I-880 down in milpitas, the clerk REGILIO will take his time to help you out with ammo...

formerTexan
01-04-2009, 9:19 AM
I remember buying a 10/22 and a Mossberg 500 from the Livermore Wal-Mart back in the late 90's or 2000. Wonder if they still sell firearms...

Quiet
01-04-2009, 9:59 AM
I remember buying a 10/22 and a Mossberg 500 from the Livermore Wal-Mart back in the late 90's or 2000. Wonder if they still sell firearms...

In April 2003, Walmart stopped selling firearms in CA.
Due to being fined $14.5 millon for 2891 violation from 6 NorCal Wal-Marts. Violations ranged from selling to prohibited persons (ie. felons), letting purchasers take possession of firearms before the 10 day waiting period was over and selling ammo to minors.

Wal-Mart has no plans in selling firearms in CA ever again.

RRangel
01-04-2009, 10:10 AM
In April 2003, Walmart stopped selling firearms in CA.
Due to being fined $14.5 millon for 2891 violation from 6 NorCal Wal-Marts. Violations ranged from selling to prohibited persons (ie. felons), letting purchasers take possession of firearms before the 10 day waiting period was over and selling ammo to minors.

Wal-Mart has no plans in selling firearms in CA ever again.

Bingo. Wal-Mart is just lucky they have that kind of money to throw around. They screwed big, and now they don't sell firearms. I bet some of the gun dealers around Wal-Mart are breathing easier.

ZRX61
01-04-2009, 11:45 AM
In April 2003, Walmart stopped selling firearms in CA.
Due to being fined $14.5 millon for 2891 violation from 6 NorCal Wal-Marts. Violations ranged from selling to prohibited persons (ie. felons), letting purchasers take possession of firearms before the 10 day waiting period was over and selling ammo to minors.

Wal-Mart has no plans in selling firearms in CA ever again.
Ah HA! so now we find out where all the criminals were getting their firearms!;)
If it wasn't for the cheap ammo the loss of Walmart wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
01-04-2009, 2:20 PM
In April 2003, Walmart stopped selling firearms in CA.
Due to being fined $14.5 millon for 2891 violation from 6 NorCal Wal-Marts. Violations ranged from selling to prohibited persons (ie. felons), letting purchasers take possession of firearms before the 10 day waiting period was over and selling ammo to minors.

Wal-Mart has no plans in selling firearms in CA ever again.

To be able to get beyond this they'll need a great political climate as well as either paperwork simplified that their clerks can't screw it up, OR clerks on the ball enough to do the job right. Or all three.

Big 5 still sells em. I think the NRA sitting down with some of the other sporting goods stores has a stronger chance, maybe we could look at it as a stepping stone towards Wal-Mart. "Look, these sporting goods stores can do it, they're on the ball, they're making profits, they're not getting fined, you can get in on this action."

domokun
01-04-2009, 3:14 PM
To be able to get beyond this they'll need a great political climate as well as either paperwork simplified that their clerks can't screw it up, OR clerks on the ball enough to do the job right. Or all three.

Big 5 still sells em. I think the NRA sitting down with some of the other sporting goods stores has a stronger chance, maybe we could look at it as a stepping stone towards Wal-Mart. "Look, these sporting goods stores can do it, they're on the ball, they're making profits, they're not getting fined, you can get in on this action."

Big5 still sells firearms but only certain folks in the store are allowed to perform the transaction, mainly the Manager or Assistant manager in the store. All the other employees are forbidden to do firearms sales that require the 4473 form.

FreedomIsNotFree
01-04-2009, 8:55 PM
I actually have no problems with Walmart not selling guns. I'd rather support a local FFL.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
01-05-2009, 12:37 PM
Big5 still sells firearms but only certain folks in the store are allowed to perform the transaction, mainly the Manager or Assistant manager in the store. All the other employees are forbidden to do firearms sales that require the 4473 form.

I could guess that's probably what's kept them out of trouble.

Mike's Custom
01-07-2009, 3:07 PM
In April 2003, Walmart stopped selling firearms in CA.
Due to being fined $14.5 millon for 2891 violation from 6 NorCal Wal-Marts. Violations ranged from selling to prohibited persons (ie. felons), letting purchasers take possession of firearms before the 10 day waiting period was over and selling ammo to minors.

Wal-Mart has no plans in selling firearms in CA ever again.

While Walmart has no plans on selling firearms in CA ever again, that is kind of a misstatement. CA DOJ has no plans on letting Walmart sell firearms here ever again and BATFE is on that same game plan. The Feds did leave a window open by saying they would have trained personel to sell firearms but the DOJ shut it pretty fast. Not selling guns in CA wasn's a Walmart choice at all.

Quiet
01-07-2009, 8:13 PM
While Walmart has no plans on selling firearms in CA ever again, that is kind of a misstatement. CA DOJ has no plans on letting Walmart sell firearms here ever again and BATFE is on that same game plan. The Feds did leave a window open by saying they would have trained personel to sell firearms but the DOJ shut it pretty fast. Not selling guns in CA wasn's a Walmart choice at all.

Not true.
CA DOJ has give Wal-Mart the choice of selling firearms in CA. But, Wal-Mart needs to comply with CA state laws in regards to the selling of firearms and properly train their associates in selling firearms, prior to be allowed to do so again.

Wal-Mart voluntarily stopped selling firearms in CA because it was cheaper to do so than it is to train their associates.

hoffmang
01-07-2009, 10:27 PM
Wal-Mart voluntarily stopped selling firearms in CA because it was cheaper to do so than it is to train their associates.

But isn't that a negative comment on the state laws and not Wal-Mart? Selling a chainsaw doesn't take training.

-Gene

wildhawker
01-08-2009, 12:08 AM
Could we imagine a situation where every purchase of an automobile would require a 10-day waiting period and a background check? One is far more likely to be killed in/by a vehicle than by gunfire, not to mention the injury statistics and financial costs... yet, here in CA, there are those who would prefer to make driving a right and continue to disregard our Constitutionally-guaranteed individual right to keep and bear.

If the priciples and restrictions of CA's gun laws were applied to any other facet of our society, there would be public outcry as hasn't been seen since the civil war.

Mike's Custom
01-08-2009, 12:44 AM
Not true.
CA DOJ has give Wal-Mart the choice of selling firearms in CA. But, Wal-Mart needs to comply with CA state laws in regards to the selling of firearms and properly train their associates in selling firearms, prior to be allowed to do so again.

Wal-Mart voluntarily stopped selling firearms in CA because it was cheaper to do so than it is to train their associates.

Walmart did not voluntaily stop selling firearms in CA. BATF stopped them from selling firearms until they could me compliance. BATF pulled their licenses at mutipule stores and was going to investigate all the rest so then Walmart "decided" to stop selling guns at their other stores. They were one step ahead of full audits by both federal and state. The BAFT info I posted was told to me by the head of the BATF in Fresno and Bakersfield offices at the time. Also, the CA DOJ agent I was dealing with at the time on a gun store buyout, (Freitas Firearms) told me that what the announced and what was really going to happen were 2 different things. Walmart was not going to be selling guns in CA again. Walmart kept telling their store managers and customers that they were going to sell guns again. It never happened, one, beause of the cost to Walmart and the other was they weren't getting their licenses back.

Now that information was all related to me back when this was all happening and other stores were being audited as they were turning in their books and sending inventory back to their distibution centers. Walmart actually had guns in their stores a long time after they had to stope selling them.

DDT
01-08-2009, 10:21 AM
Gotta work out a deal like McDonald's "Mikes Custom Firearms" in all WalMarts.