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Creeping Incrementalism
12-29-2008, 6:36 PM
The January 2009 issue of National Geographic covers some endangered animals. On page 94 it reads, "...many of these scavengers were shot or poisoned by fragments of lead left behind by hunters.... Captive breeding and reduced use of lead ammunition have brought the species back."

I expect a blatant environmental bias from this magazine, but the claim about the lead ammo ban already bringing the species back is extraordinarily ignorant. I don't think whoever wrote this has any idea what he is talking about--the species was on the brink of extinction six months ago and suddenly they have come back?

The magazine makes no mention of the fact that power lines and cars kill more of these big birds than lead ammo supposedly does.

Furthermore, when were people shooting these birds? I've never heard of that, unless it was a half century ago.

JDay
12-29-2008, 6:40 PM
There is no proven link between lead ammo and condor deaths.

scootergmc
12-29-2008, 6:42 PM
Someone shot one in '03.

Google is your friend.

http://www.surfbirds.com/sbirdsnews/archives/2003/02/last_wild_condo.html

tzahoy
12-30-2008, 8:04 AM
Actually it was more than half a century ago. Early ranchers were responsible for the initial demise of the Condor as they believed (incorrectly) that they were killing their calves.

postal16
12-30-2008, 8:41 AM
Lead didn't wipe out the Condors, Johnny Cash did!:notworthy: (Or at least he blamed his truck for overheating and catching fire).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Cash#Outlaw_image

Since he is dead, the Condors will be ok

Kid Stanislaus
12-30-2008, 10:04 AM
There is no proven link between lead ammo and condor deaths.


But the left wing whackos that puke this stuff up don't really care whether its the truth or not.

AKman
12-30-2008, 11:12 AM
The real reason the Condor almost went extinct:

4 pound Condor Fan Fillet
1/2 Cup Soy Sauce (low sodium optional)
3 Tablespoon Oil
3 Tablespoon Honey
3/4 Teaspoon ground ginger
1 Clove Garlic

Heat above in microwave for one minute. Stir and pour over meat to marinate.

MT1
12-30-2008, 11:19 AM
Can someone post up the facts about this if they have found them, as all I have seen is second hand information backing both sides of the story.

Captain Evilstomper
12-30-2008, 11:31 AM
i saw that BS the condor has been on it's way back for almost 10years and the lead ammo ban has been in effect for 6 months?
yeah that's good evidence. logical too.

dodgerfan175
12-30-2008, 11:34 AM
I don't mean to be "in-sensitive" but am I the only one that thinks we spend way to much time and money worrying about endangered species. I mean there are people out there with no food or a place to sleep, granted in most cases they have no one else to blame but themselves. I just think those millions of dollars we spend on these animals could be put to better use.

Captain Evilstomper
12-30-2008, 12:09 PM
i don't have any evidence to the effect, (and i don't want to research it right now) but judging by the amount and frequency of commercials that i see on TV, i would bet that more money gets donated to things like PETA and other animal charities than goes to helpingsolve the homeless problem in this country.
BTW my idea for olving the homeless problem is this: ship all the homeless to San Fran. i'm sure they wouldn't mind. bonus #1 many communities get rid of the homeless problem, bonus #2 San Fran goes bankrupt and we can get rid of Newsome.

Kid Stanislaus
12-30-2008, 4:26 PM
I don't mean to be "in-sensitive" but am I the only one that thinks we spend way to much time and money worrying about endangered species. I mean there are people out there with no food or a place to sleep, granted in most cases they have no one else to blame but themselves. I just think those millions of dollars we spend on these animals could be put to better use.

Yeah, like birth control programs so there wouldn't be so many people with no food or place to sleep!! But then, that'd be against "God's will", would it not?!!

Springfield45
12-30-2008, 10:20 PM
Someone shot one in '03.

Google is your friend.

http://www.surfbirds.com/sbirdsnews/archives/2003/02/last_wild_condo.html

I hope they didn't use a lead bullet!:eek:

Captain Evilstomper
12-30-2008, 10:24 PM
Yeah, like birth control programs so there wouldn't be so many people with no food or place to sleep!! But then, that'd be against "God's will", would it not?!!

oh come on now, that was a little our of order, you had to bring up a eugenics issue?
how about we spend some more money on education so that we don't have so many people with no options in life other than crime?

Seesm
12-31-2008, 12:47 AM
I hate left wings but not bad enough to shoot a left wing off a condor... :)

ontargetrange
12-31-2008, 7:50 AM
Here is a quick article about these fine feathered friends -- it is taken from the Cal DFG report that is hard to find because of its conclusions ---

CONDORS CANNOT BE SAVEDWithout near impossible efforts, scientific study admits
BY BILL KARR / WON STAFF WRITER
Published: Nov 07, 2008

What we have all thought for a long time is now in writing, submitted by no less than the a specially-selected panel of scientists: the California condor is no longer wild, cannot breed by itself, and requires the constant maintenance of humans to survive.

Is this a "wild" bird, something that should be saved? Personally, I think the wild condor is now extinct, and has been for some years. The only remaining birds are those in zoos or care centers, or those that have been released from those facilities. They have been hand-raised by humans, fed by humans and cannot survive on their own. To me, that is an extinct bird.

According to the report: The condors depend on man-made "feeding stations" to survive; the have lost their ability to forage naturally; require "constant and costly human assistance", according to the report itself; and finally, that " nesting success was 'nil' before intense intervention last year to vaccinate chicks for West Nile virus and surgically remove ingested refuse such as rags, nuts, bolts, plastic and bottle caps."

Of course, these "scientists" blame lead bullet fragments ingested by the
condors as their main cause of death. That in itself is ridiculous, if all of these other cares must be given the birds to keep them from dying. In fact, I remember reading many times that the birds sometimes die from drinking anti-freeze, and many chicks die from simply falling out of their nests or off ledges. And, the reports admits they will eat most anything—things can and do kill them.

The study says, quite clearly, the condor "…can't survive on its own without a ban on lead ammunition across its vast western ranges….". Again, it is not just lead bullet fragments; it's also West Nile, the fact that there are no more wild birds that can fend for themselves, that they become electrocuted on power lines, and on and on.

The report concludes that "so much effort is required to feed, nurse and protect wild condors, the scientists wrote, 'that one might argue that they constitute little more than outdoor zoo populations.'"

That being the case, then they should be kept alive by keeping them in zoo's, and give up this ridiculous attempt to keep them alive in the wild. Congratulations should go to the efforts so far, in keeping them alive at all. But if, in fact as the report says, they are only "zoo populations", then stop impacting tens of thousands of humans with restrictions by trying to make them "wild", and keep them in zoos.


Don't ya just love these PETA folks when it comes to hiding the truth about something ---

rbgaynor
12-31-2008, 8:44 AM
Here is a quick article about these fine feathered friends -- it is taken from the Cal DFG report that is hard to find because of its conclusions ---


It's from here http://www.wonews.com/t-FeatureArticle-Condorscannotbesaved-110708.aspx

It's not actually from the DFG report but is more of an opinion piece (the author calls it a perspective) based on the DFG report.

jeffsenpai
12-31-2008, 8:05 PM
I don't mean to be "in-sensitive" but am I the only one that thinks we spend way to much time and money worrying about endangered species. I mean there are people out there with no food or a place to sleep, granted in most cases they have no one else to blame but themselves. I just think those millions of dollars we spend on these animals could be put to better use.

I think saving endangered species is worth it if only because some of those animals are really neat and add some variety and uniqueness to our world. People on the other hand... well, we are overpopulated and too many humans out there are relatively worthless.

Meplat
01-01-2009, 1:19 PM
People on the other hand... well, we are overpopulated and too many humans out there are relatively worthless.

So, are you volunteering to be the first to leave the planet? The biologists I work with tell me that the Condor is a leftover from the time when giant ground sloths, wooly rhinos and mammoths roamed the landscape. It is not capable of making a living on critters of the size available today. The climate and environment of the area in which they are located has changed drastically also. The Condor has been on its way out for a very long time. We only arrived just in time to witness its last gasp.

We rail against the lead bullet ban but it is only a minor inconvenience compare to what the endangered species act is doing to industry, agriculture, and our economy as a whole.

Last year radical environmentalists using the endangered species act cost my industry several million tons of food production and thus even more millions of dollars. It was based on an hypotheses even weaker than the lead bullet / Condor question.:mad:

Digital_Hate
01-01-2009, 2:19 PM
I think saving endangered species is worth it if only because some of those animals are really neat and add some variety and uniqueness to our world. People on the other hand... well, we are overpopulated and too many humans out there are relatively worthless.

sounds up your alley (http://www.vhemt.org/)

Synergy
01-01-2009, 5:33 PM
Another case of failed Natural Selection, due to intervention of the human race.

The strong will survive the weak will become extinct.

Smokeybehr
01-01-2009, 6:14 PM
People on the other hand... well, we are overpopulated and too many humans out there are relatively worthless.

Show that you're a true believer and kill yourself. :43:

Wild Bill
01-01-2009, 9:16 PM
Well maybe we should feed condors homeless people. Or better yet feed homeless people condors!!:thumbsup:

:jump:


:King: