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Dr Rockso
12-26-2008, 10:48 AM
A question that seems to come up often is whether someone can receive a firearm as a gift from a valid family member (parent or grandparent relationship) out of state. The advice given is that no, per federal law [USC 18 § 922 (5)] it is illegal to transfer a firearm between residents of different states, so the transfer would require an in-state FFL.

However, for those of us with a C&R FFL, we would not be breaking federal law by engaging in the interstate transfer of a valid curio and relic firearm. As such, would it then be possible to obtain a C&R handgun from an out of state relative, then pay the requisite $19 to the DOJ without involving an 01 FFL?

Librarian
12-26-2008, 12:03 PM
Forget the intrafamilial part - if you have the 03 FFL for C&R, just follow the C&R rules.

Dr Rockso
12-26-2008, 12:24 PM
Forget the intrafamilial part - if you have the 03 FFL for C&R, just follow the C&R rules.
If one were following C&R rules, the pistol would have to go though an 01 dealer because it doesn't meet the exemption in PC 12078(t)(2), which requires the firearm to be a long gun 50+ years old. However there is another exemption in PC 12078(c) that deals with intra-familial transfers. If it is possible to use the 12078(c) exemption instead of the 12078(t) exemption, then the 50+ y/o long gun requirement would no longer exist for transactions in accordance with the intra-familial rules.

Let me know if my logic is lacking somewhere.

Relevant quotes from PC 12078. (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12078.html)
PC 12078(t)(2)
Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of
Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or
relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date,

PC 12078(c)(2)
Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the
infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate
succession, or other means by one individual to another if both
individuals are members of the same immediate family and all of the
following conditions are met:

Librarian
12-26-2008, 12:35 PM
If one were following C&R rules, the pistol would have to go though an 01 dealer because it doesn't meet the exemption in PC 12078(t)(2), which requires the firearm to be a long gun 50+ years old. However there is another exemption in PC 12078(c) that deals with intra-familial transfers. If it is possible to use the 12078(c) exemption instead of the 12078(t) exemption, then the 50+ y/o long gun requirement would no longer exist for transactions in accordance with the intra-familial rules.

Let me know if my logic is lacking somewhere.


I don't have C&R myself, but isn't it true you can go out of state yourself, buy a C&R handgun, and just report it to CA when you return? Seller/transferor need not have a license (buyer must) - family member would work.

Outside the 50-year+ C&R long guns, interstate intrafamilial still must go through the 01 FFL - feds don't have the intrafamilial concept.

Dr Rockso
12-26-2008, 12:42 PM
I don't have C&R myself, but isn't it true you can go out of state yourself, buy a C&R handgun, and just report it to CA when you return? Seller/transferor need not have a license (buyer must) - family member would work.
Yes, that is true.

Outside the 50-year+ C&R long guns, interstate intrafamilial still must go through the 01 FFL - feds don't have the intrafamilial concept.
You're right about the second part - feds don't have the intrafamilial concept. BUT making handgun transfers go through an 01 FFL is not a federal law.

Mssr. Eleganté
12-26-2008, 1:21 PM
The kind of transfer you are talking about would be perfectly legal. They could ship the handgun right to you in California.

You'd be legal with the Feds because the handgun is C&R and you have a Type 03 FFL.

You'd be legal with California because the handgun would be coming from a "family" member.

If it is shipped in you'd need to use the OpLaw/IntraFam form to report it. If you go out of state to pick it up then you'd need to use the C&R handgun report form (and the "family" relationship wouldn't matter if picked up while out of state).

Dr Rockso
12-26-2008, 1:28 PM
The kind of transfer you are talking about would be perfectly legal. They could ship the handgun right to you in California.

You'd be legal with the Feds because the handgun is C&R and you have a Type 03 FFL.

You'd be legal with California because the handgun would be coming from a "family" member.

If it is shipped in you'd need to use the OpLaw/IntraFam form to report it. If you go out of state to pick it up then you'd need to use the C&R handgun report form (and the "family" relationship wouldn't matter if picked up while out of state).

Nice to know, that's what I thought. What about other C&R firearms (long guns) that are legal in California but do not meet the 50 year requirement? Seems like anything on the C&R list would work (with the exception of grenade-launcher equipped SKS's and whatnot).

Mssr. Eleganté
12-26-2008, 1:40 PM
...What about other C&R firearms (long guns) that are legal in California but do not meet the 50 year requirement? Seems like anything on the C&R list would work (with the exception of grenade-launcher equipped SKS's and whatnot).

Yep. C&R stuff of any age could be sent to you as long as it was from somebody who would be exempt from California's requirement to go through an 01 FFL, like a parent or grandparent, and as long as the firearm was legal to own in California.

Librarian
12-26-2008, 1:54 PM
BUT making handgun transfers go through an 01 FFL is not a federal law.

Umm, maybe for C&R - but otherwise, interstate transfers DO go through an FFL in the state of residence of the receiver.

See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=114142

Dr Rockso
12-26-2008, 2:03 PM
Umm, maybe for C&R - but otherwise, interstate transfers DO go through an FFL in the state of residence of the receiver.

See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=114142
Yeah, it's a distinction between state and federal law.

The feds require an FFL to be involved in all interstate transfers. For guns on the C&R list, an 03 FFL is acceptable.

The state requires all firearms to go through an 01 FFL, with caveats. One of those caveats is that the STATE's rule does not apply to long guns over 50 years, nor to intrafamilial transfers.

So like Amendment II confirmed, you're legal with the feds because of the 03 FFL and legal with the state because of the intrafamilial exemption.

Librarian
12-26-2008, 2:03 PM
Yep. C&R stuff of any age could be sent to you as long as it was from somebody who would be exempt from California's requirement to go through an 01 FFL, like a parent or grandparent, and as long as the firearm was legal to own in California.

Parents and grandparents are not exempt from the 01 FFL on interstate transfers. They ARE exempt if both intrafamilial parties are CA residents.

Look, C&R isn't my area, and I try to stay out of it.

So here's a question: Can a California C&R holder order a C&R handgun from out of state and have it delivered to his C&R address in California?

IF yes, intrafamilial is not relevant - it's perfectly legal federally, and if California allows it too, you're golden.

If no, then intrafamilial is still not relevant, because Feds don't care.

For non-C&R guns, the C&R license is not a factor, so Federally an interstate transfer cannot go to a non-licensee (again, except for those 50 year old+ long guns acquired from an out of state FFL).

Dr Rockso
12-26-2008, 2:50 PM
Librarian, your write-up on "Interstate sales or transfers to California residents" is a very well put together primer on this topic.

The question you posed in your last post is on the right track, but the implications are different than what you proposed. Unless there is another applicable law that I am unaware of, this is the federal and state viewpoint on the legality of the following scenarios.

SCENARIO 1: I'm a 03 FFL in California wanting to purchase a handgun from an out of state dealer.
Federal law: LEGAL, anything on the C&R list can be shipped directly to an 03 FFL.
State law: ILLEGAL, per PC 12072 this must go through a California dealer (must be an 01 FFL).

SCENARIO 2: I'm a resident of California and not an FFL. My grandfather (who lives out of state) wants to give me a C&R handgun via an intrafamilial transfer.
Federal law: ILLEGAL, transfers between residents of different states must involve an FFL.
State law: LEGAL, PC 12078(c) waives the dealer requirement for intrafamilial transfers.

SCENARIO 3: I'm a 03 FFL in California. My grandfather (who lives out of state) wants to give me a C&R handgun via an intrafamilial transfer.
Federal law: LEGAL, anything on the C&R list can be shipped directly to an 03 FFL.
State law: LEGAL, PC 12078(c) waives the dealer requirement for intrafamilial transfers.

Librarian
12-26-2008, 3:18 PM
Librarian, your write-up on "Interstate sales or transfers to California residents" is a very well put together primer on this topic.

The question you posed in your last post is on the right track, but the implications are different than what you proposed. Unless there is another applicable law that I am unaware of, this is the federal and state viewpoint on the legality of the following scenarios.

SCENARIO 1: I'm a 03 FFL in California wanting to purchase a handgun from an out of state dealer.
Federal law: LEGAL, anything on the C&R list can be shipped directly to an 03 FFL.
State law: ILLEGAL, per PC 12072 this must go through a California dealer (must be an 01 FFL).

SCENARIO 2: I'm a resident of California and not an FFL. My grandfather (who lives out of state) wants to give me a C&R handgun via an intrafamilial transfer.
Federal law: ILLEGAL, transfers between residents of different states must involve an FFL.
State law: LEGAL, PC 12078(c) waives the dealer requirement for intrafamilial transfers.

SCENARIO 3: I'm a 03 FFL in California. My grandfather (who lives out of state) wants to give me a C&R handgun via an intrafamilial transfer.
Federal law: LEGAL, anything on the C&R list can be shipped directly to an 03 FFL.
State law: LEGAL, PC 12078(c) waives the dealer requirement for intrafamilial transfers.

I really don't see it that way. But I'll admit that the C&R aspect leaves me unsure.

Presuming you mean a C&R handgun in Scenario 1, I see 1 and 3 as exactly the same thing - it's an interstate C&R handgun transfer that CA requires to go through the 01-FFL.

And Scenario 2, of course, generalizes to all interstate transfers to non-FFLs.

Why CA should allow a C&R license holder to leave CA and acquire a C&R handgun and return with it without the 01-FFL (perfectly in accord with Federal law), but require the 01-FFL on an interstate transfer where the C&R license holder receiver stays in CA, I cannot fathom. But with that avenue available, I'd say go visit Grandfather and get the handgun by the way that's already clearly permitted.

Mssr. Eleganté
12-26-2008, 4:16 PM
Parents and grandparents are not exempt from the 01 FFL on interstate transfers. They ARE exempt if both intrafamilial parties are CA residents.

I thought it was pretty clear that in this thread we were only talking about C&R firearms being shipped to a C&R FFL in California by an out of state "family" member. Do we really have to restate all of the parameters in every single post?

Parents and grandparents are exempted from the Federal restriction on interstate transfers because they are sending a C&R firearm to a C&R FFL. The family relationship doesn't even matter. They aren't exempted from the Federal restriction because of "family" status, they are exempted because the firearm is C&R and they are sending it to a C&R FFL.

So now we only have to deal with California's requirement that transfers go through a California FFL. The kind of transfer we are talking about (C&R long gun or handgun of any age coming from a "family" member) is exempt from California's 01 FFL transfer requirement because it is coming from a "family" member. California doesn't care if the firearm is C&R or if the "family" member is from out of state.

The Feds only care that it is a C&R firearm going to a C&R FFL.
California only cares that it is a Cali-legal firearm coming from a "family" member.

Does that make sense?

Mssr. Eleganté
12-26-2008, 4:24 PM
Why CA should allow a C&R license holder to leave CA and acquire a C&R handgun and return with it without the 01-FFL (perfectly in accord with Federal law), but require the 01-FFL on an interstate transfer where the C&R license holder receiver stays in CA, I cannot fathom.

They only allow this because they know that they have no way to restrict the behavior of California residents while they are out of state. I'll try to find the web page that includes the legislators comments on the C&R handgun reporting requirements when they were changing the law back around 1998. They admit that they can't control what California C&R FFL's do while out of state and can only compel them to register the handguns they acquire while physically out of state, but can't prohibit them from bringing them back.

But they consider purchases that are shipped into California from out of state to be acquired inside of California, and thus subject to greater restrictions by California law.

Librarian
12-26-2008, 5:04 PM
I thought it was pretty clear that in this thread we were only talking about C&R firearms being shipped to a C&R FFL in California by an out of state "family" member. Do we really have to restate all of the parameters in every single post?
Well, every time I leave out the 50+ year long-gun exemption, someone pops up to plug it in! :)

Parents and grandparents are exempted from the Federal restriction on interstate transfers because they are sending a C&R firearm to a C&R FFL. The family relationship doesn't even matter. They aren't exempted from the Federal restriction because of "family" status, they are exempted because the firearm is C&R and they are sending it to a C&R FFL.
I'm with you up to here. Anyone is exempted from the Federal restriction because the firearm is C&R and they are sending it to a C&R FFL.

So now we only have to deal with California's requirement that transfers go through a California FFL. The kind of transfer we are talking about (C&R long gun or handgun of any age coming from a "family" member) is exempt from California's 01 FFL transfer requirement because it is coming from a "family" member. California doesn't care if the firearm is C&R or if the "family" member is from out of state.
I can't see the distinction among an interstate C&R transfer from a dealer, from another private individual, or from a family member.

If CA requires the 01-FFL from a dealer on the interstate transfer, it looks to me the same for anyone else.

The Feds only care that it is a C&R firearm going to a C&R FFL.
California only cares that it is a Cali-legal firearm coming from a "family" member.

Does that make sense?
If folks are doing this, and CA and Feds are both OK with it - as evidenced by non-residence in the Graybar Hotel - then it works whether I can figure out why or not.

Let me stew on this for a while; meantime, I'll shut up :)

Mssr. Eleganté
12-26-2008, 5:30 PM
If CA requires the 01-FFL from a dealer on the interstate transfer, it looks to me the same for anyone else.

That's just it. California does not require the transfer to go through an 01 FFL because it is an interstate transfer. Only the Feds require that, and they are satisfied because of the C&R firearm to C&R FFL aspect of the transfer.

California only requires the transfer to go through a California 01 FFL because "neither party is licensed" as a California 01 FFL. California doesn't care if it is an interstate transfer or an intrastate transfer. But since the kind of transfer we are discussing in this thread is coming from a "family" member, it is exempt from California's 01 FFL transfer requirements.

rayra
12-26-2008, 9:42 PM
Colonel Mustard did it in the library with a candlestick.

Librarian
12-27-2008, 11:29 PM
SCENARIO 3: I'm a 03 FFL in California. My grandfather (who lives out of state) wants to give me a C&R handgun via an intrafamilial transfer.
Federal law: LEGAL, anything on the C&R list can be shipped directly to an 03 FFL.
State law: LEGAL, PC 12078(c) waives the dealer requirement for intrafamilial transfers.

OK, I'm convinced. Scenario 3 works. Nice catch, Doc and Amendment II.

Just as background, it was thinking about that 50-year-old long-gun rule that sent me down the path to salvation.

If CA made that decision, and CA and Feds honor it, then it's reasonable that another pair of Federal (C&R) laws and CA (C&R, intrafamily) could work in synergy.

Perhaps my look at CA is so consistently pessimistic :eek: I could not believe even a little bit of good news out of the maze.