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View Full Version : Out of State - Family Transfers??? Wait this looks to be another loophole...


GMONEY
12-24-2008, 9:00 AM
If an out of state family member wants to transfer an off list handgun to you they can? This is news to me... Can someone explain this a little better?

dfletcher
12-24-2008, 9:08 AM
I'm in the process of doing this for a few handguns. Your Mom or Dad (and other family members, not sure of the specifics) can send to you via CA FFL for transfer a non-rostered handgun. Most gun stores are aware, some need reminding on the non-rostered part. Make certain when the handgun is sent that there's a note stating "I, Dad, am giving this BHP 9mm ser #12345 to my son" and date it.

That's it.

1064chubbs
12-24-2008, 9:23 AM
Its been covered a few times try searching... But basically it goes a child, parent, or grandparent can give an off list handgun to a child, parent or grandparent as a gift but it has to go through an FFL since it will be crossing state lines.

hawk1
12-24-2008, 9:28 AM
Out of state must still be transfered through a FFL to meet feds requirement. Ask what the FFl will charge before you have it sent in.

In state family transfer is doen with this;
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf

Fire in the Hole
12-24-2008, 10:02 AM
My daughter turns 21 next week. I'm giving her my Colt Diamomdback snubnose as a gift. I've filled out the DOJ form. It will cost $19.00. My question is this. The transfer will be in state. She lives with us. Does she have to take the Firearms Safety Certificate, first? Does the gun still need to be held by an FFL to verify that she has a clean record? I checked the DOJ website for an answer to this question, but did not find it.

pavlov
12-24-2008, 10:11 AM
If she's in state then she's supposed to have a handgun safety cert to own a handgun. Gun doesn't have to be transferred via FFL.

Fire in the Hole
12-24-2008, 10:24 AM
The safety cert is no problem. I guess hypopthetically, my question is what if gamps wants to give his 30 year old grandson a gun. Fills out the DOJ form, pays the $19.00. Grandson has a handgun safety cert. But grandson commited a felony last year. Gramps does not know about it. Where is the potential safeguard in the system?

ontargetrange
12-24-2008, 11:16 AM
When the DOJ gets the form with the Grandson's name on it they will review the computer records and his name will surface -- they will then send a letter saying he now has to return/dispose the firearm -- giving to another family member -- they get really nasty about it too ---

ZirconJohn
12-24-2008, 2:03 PM
My daughter turns 21 next week. I'm giving her my Colt Diamomdback snubnose as a gift. I've filled out the DOJ form. It will cost $19.00. My question is this. The transfer will be in state. She lives with us. Does she have to take the Firearms Safety Certificate, first? Does the gun still need to be held by an FFL to verify that she has a clean record? I checked the DOJ website for an answer to this question, but did not find it.

No, she DOES NOT have to take the HSC Test and pay the $25 HSC Card Fee.

Use this link http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf for .pdf of 'Operation of Law' Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction, fill it out, include the $19.00 Fee and mail... that's it, done. Please see steps 1, 2, and 3 below for detailed Law.

NO HSC Card required, none... zip, nada.

For more info follow these steps:
1.) http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/
2.) See Menu Bar: California Firearms Laws Summary Booklet
3.) In 'Summary Booklet' see pages 37, 38, 39

Regarding out of State Transfers... your Parent or Grandparent DOES NOT live in California, you MUST ship item Dealer to Dealer and complete the transaction via the FFL DROS Entry System. In this case, Fees may vary.

Again... the handgun DOES NOT need to be on the DOJ Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale... it is exempt "Operation of Law Representative".

NOTE: If your FFL Dealer does not know this... please ask your dealer to call the CA DOJ for the skinny, and they will walk them through the process... it is VERY simple.

One thing is you will need Gramps to write a letter for the FFL Dealer Records indicating specifics of transaction etc... you understand.

Regarding out of State shipment from Dealer to Dealer.
On the DROS Entry System where your FFL Dealer completes the Dealer Record of Sale (DROS), use the 'Curio/Relic/ Olympic Pistol/ Exempt' tab, then on the 'Purchaser' tab go to 'HSC Exemption Code', the Dealer will enter 'X02 Operation of Law Representative' - all other requirements apply i.e. proof of residence, trigger lock and/or gun safe affidavit etc. But, NO HSC Card... thus the 'HSC Exemption Code - X02 Operation of Law Representative'.

Now, lastly... the handgun is here in California, but Grampa lives in Ohio. How did the handgun get here? :willy_nilly: "Oh my GAWD!"

Hey... the gun is here... so there y'all are... see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil... tell Gramps thanks, ask him if'n he gots any dang ammo fer it, fill out the DOJ Paper, send your $19 and be done with it already. DOJ just wants the paper, that's all.

Serious, and don't worry... you did it the right way.:angel:

Librarian
12-24-2008, 2:10 PM
No, she DOES NOT have to take the HSC Test and pay the $25 HSC Card Fee.


You missed something: 12078 (c) (1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the
infrequent transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun by gift,
bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to
another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family.

(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the
infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate
succession, or other means by one individual to another if both
individuals are members of the same immediate family and all of the
following conditions are met:
(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within 30
days of taking possession of the firearm, forward by prepaid mail or
deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that
includes information concerning the individual taking possession of
the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description
of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals
complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the
Department of Justice.
(B) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a
handgun safety certificate.
(C) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=124237

Granted, there's nothing on the OPLAW form that asks for verification of the HSC.

Then there's this slightly contradictory pair:Regarding out of State Transfers... your Parent or Grandparent DOES NOT live in California, you MUST complete the transaction via an FFL Dealer DROS. In this case, Fees may vary. and Hey... the gun is here... so there y'all are... see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil... tell Gramps thanks, ask him if'n he gots any dang ammo fer it, fill out the DOJ Paper, send your $19 and be done with it already. DOJ just wants the paper, that's all.
The first is the way it DOES work,the second is the way it OUGHT TO work, but is currently illegal.

Otherwise, nice post.

bwiese
12-24-2008, 2:37 PM
Thanks Librarian, you beat me to it.

ZirconJohn
12-24-2008, 3:02 PM
You missed something: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=124237

Granted, there's nothing on the OPLAW form that asks for verification of the HSC.

Then there's this slightly contradictory pair: and
The first is the way it DOES work,the second is the way it OUGHT TO work, but is currently illegal.

Otherwise, nice post.

True... I just talked to DOJ, and you are correct in that there is NO section in the Itra-Familial self registration for HSC Card number. And I do stand humbily corrected in that "yes" you are required by Law to have an HSC Card for this transaction... so, why the Law? Well, "general firearm knowledge in safety etc" the lady on the phone at DOJ says... well, okay... I'll go with that.
Now, in the On-Line Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) Entry System, in the 'Purchaser' tab... 'HSC Exemption Code' - I have to admit, I too was thrown by this, and so I asked Rep at DOJ. And the answer is "no". The recipient of Grampa's gun does not, is not, required to have an HSC Card. They Do NOT have to test, produce, or even mention anything about a HSC Card, per DOJ Representative, therefore, it is not Law that the FFL Dealer require the test for one, or document an HSC Card, no $25 Fee... nothing. HSC Exemption means exempt from producing,and/or documenting an HSC Card.


Boy, was I happy to hear this news... I have done a few of these and after reading your reply, I called to get the answer. I thought I may have to backtrack and correct some paperwork. That would have been a nightmare!

Sure is weird, I mean ya gotta have an HSC Card for self registration, but there is no place to enter the HSC Card number and expiration date. And transaction with an FFL Dealer, you are 'exempt' from even producing an HSC Card for the Dealer to varify.

I have been vindicated by The CA DOJ, eezus, that was close! HSC Card NOT required for Dealer Record of Sale, this is contrary to written Law... yet, the Enrty System is as it is, (again per DOJ).

Thank you, you have great info... much appreciated.

I don't like to tell people they are wrong, not my place in life. So we gather information and share... I hope I helped you out, for you have surely helped me.

Quiet
12-24-2008, 3:26 PM
The safety cert is no problem. I guess hypopthetically, my question is what if gamps wants to give his 30 year old grandson a gun. Fills out the DOJ form, pays the $19.00. Grandson has a handgun safety cert. But grandson commited a felony last year. Gramps does not know about it. Where is the potential safeguard in the system?
When the DOJ gets the form with the Grandson's name on it they will review the computer records and his name will surface -- they will then send a letter saying he now has to return/dispose the firearm -- giving to another family member -- they get really nasty about it too ---

CA DOJ has an Armed and Prohibited Persons Task Force. They review/cross-check firearms registration records and felony criminal records, in order to determine if a felon has a firearm registered in their name. If they do have a firearm registered to them, the Task Force pays them a visit in order to determine if they possess the firearm(s) and arrest them if they do.

EOD Guy
12-25-2008, 9:32 AM
True... I just talked to DOJ, and you are correct in that there is NO section in the Itra-Familial self registration for HSC Card number. And I do stand humbily corrected in that "yes" you are required by Law to have an HSC Card for this transaction... so, why the Law? Well, "general firearm knowledge in safety etc" the lady on the phone at DOJ says... well, okay... I'll go with that.
Now, in the On-Line Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) Entry System, in the 'Purchaser' tab... 'HSC Exemption Code' - I have to admit, I too was thrown by this, and so I asked Rep at DOJ. And the answer is "no". The recipient of Grampa's gun does not, is not, required to have an HSC Card. They Do NOT have to test, produce, or even mention anything about a HSC Card, per DOJ Representative, therefore, it is not Law that the FFL Dealer require the test for one, or document an HSC Card, no $25 Fee... nothing. HSC Exemption means exempt from producing,and/or documenting an HSC Card.


Boy, was I happy to hear this news... I have done a few of these and after reading your reply, I called to get the answer. I thought I may have to backtrack and correct some paperwork. That would have been a nightmare!

Sure is weird, I mean ya gotta have an HSC Card for self registration, but there is no place to enter the HSC Card number and expiration date. And transaction with an FFL Dealer, you are 'exempt' from even producing an HSC Card for the Dealer to varify.

I have been vindicated by The CA DOJ, eezus, that was close! HSC Card NOT required for Dealer Record of Sale, this is contrary to written Law... yet, the Enrty System is as it is, (again per DOJ).

I think you misunderstood the DOJ rep. In order to have a handgun transferred to you, you must have a Handgun Safety Certificate or qualify for one of the listed exemptions. An interfamilial transfer is not one of the exemptions. Here is a list of the exemptions:

X01 = Special Weapons Permit Holder
X02 = Operation of Law Representative
X03 = Handgun being returned to the owner
X13 = FFL collector with COE (curio and relic handguns only)
X21 = Military - Active Duty
X22 = Military - Reserve
X25 = Military - Honorably Retired
X31 = Peace Officer - California - Active
X32 = Peace Officer - Federal - Active
X33 = Peace Officer - California - Honorably Retired
X34 = Peace Officer - California - Reserve
X35 = Peace Officer - Federal - Honorably Retired
X41 = Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) Permit Holder
X81 = P.O.S.T. 832 PC (Firearms) Training
X91 = Particular and Limited Authority Peace Officers
X95 = Law Enforcement Service Gun to Family Member

ZirconJohn
12-25-2008, 11:46 AM
This is a very good deal here... I do not mind getting set straight, I have been wrong before, and if we aint makin' mistakes then we aint lernin!

This is not about who is right, or who is wrong... this is about getting it done right for the customer.

So let's do some lernin' - bring it on!

This is about HSC Card required? Or not required? For out-of-State shipment from FFL Dealer to FFL Dealer for a handgun NOT on the CA DOJ Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale... Grampa lives in Idaho, is handing down a really nice full size Colt Model 1911 to his granddaughter who lives in California... gonna ship it to here Dealer to Dealer.

The self register form on-line at DOJ is REPORT OF OPERATION OF LAW OR INTRA-FAMILIAL HANDGUN TRANSACTION. The DOJ informs me that self registering is the only time this type transaction called 'Intra-Familial'. However, when an FFL Dealer perfoms the transaction it's called an 'Operation of Law' on the CFD DROS Entry System Access.

Yes, there is a written law stating that you must have an HSC Card as well, it's in a post above somewhere.

This is how I posed the question to the DOJ Rep: which exemption code do I use on the 'Purchaser' tab for intra-familial?

She informs me: There is no 'intra-familial' for FFL Dealers, that's something the recipient does i.e. self register... you are an FFL Dealer, you use X02 Operation of Law located on the 'Purchaser' tab of the on-line DROS Entry System.


PLEASE READ THIS:
I say: Ok, copy that... the X02 Operation of Law... now, here is the question, Operation of Law is listed under 'HSC Exemption' on the Purchaser Tab. I have complete many conceal carry (CCW) DROS', I explain to her, and they are exempt from the HSC Card, the Test, the Fee, safety demo... again, my question to you [Ms. DOJ] is; I am entering X02 Operation of Law under HSC EXEMPT title on the Purchaser tab where X41 CCW is located and they are HSC Exempt... ergo, is the recipient of this heirloom gift from Gramps [still] obligated to produce an HSC Card?

DOJ: "No".

Me: Do I have to see an HSC Card?

DOJ: "No".

Me: How about an HSC Handgun Safety Demo?

DOJ: "No".

Me: "Do I have to ask if they have one?"

DOJ: "No, well you can ask if you want... but no".

I think you misunderstood the DOJ rep. In order to have a handgun transferred to you, you must have a Handgun Safety Certificate or qualify for one of the listed exemptions. An interfamilial transfer is not one of the exemptions. Here is a list of the exemptions:

X01 = Special Weapons Permit Holder
X02 = Operation of Law Representative
X03 = Handgun being returned to the owner
X13 = FFL collector with COE (curio and relic handguns only)
X21 = Military - Active Duty
X22 = Military - Reserve
X25 = Military - Honorably Retired
X31 = Peace Officer - California - Active
X32 = Peace Officer - Federal - Active
X33 = Peace Officer - California - Honorably Retired
X34 = Peace Officer - California - Reserve
X35 = Peace Officer - Federal - Honorably Retired
X41 = Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) Permit Holder
X81 = P.O.S.T. 832 PC (Firearms) Training
X91 = Particular and Limited Authority Peace Officers
X95 = Law Enforcement Service Gun to Family Member

Librarian
12-25-2008, 1:59 PM
I think I see where the DOJ person is becoming confused.

ID-Gramps is giving handgun to CA-Granddaughter.

For whatever reason, Gramps is choosing to ship ID-FFL to CA-FFL - perfectly legal.

DOJ person is reading the transfer as instate intrafamilial, I think. DOJ is notoriously uninformed about interstate transfers; it's the pits that FFLs have to know both CA and Fed regs, but can't get competent advice in one place.

It's not instate intrafamilial. Think of it as ID-Gramps walks into your CA-FFL and says "I know I need to use a CA FFL to satisfy those federal guys on an interstate transfer. I want to give this 1911 to my granddaughter, here. What do we both do?"

You know the transfer is intrafamilial - so whatever the gun is, as long as it's not an assault weapon, you don't need to worry about the Roster.

But it's interstate, so Feds over-ride CA's intrafamilial form. This is like a PPT with extra fees - the CA-FFL collects a transfer fee and a DROS fee, and you all do 4473 and DROS paperwork, and the FFL takes custody of the weapon for 10 days or until DOJ rejects the transfer. The CA-FFL follows CA law for transferring a handgun to an unlicensed person - HSC required, safety demo required, safety device required.

ZirconJohn
12-25-2008, 3:48 PM
I think I see where the DOJ person is becoming confused.

ID-Gramps is giving handgun to CA-Granddaughter.

For whatever reason, Gramps is choosing to ship ID-FFL to CA-FFL - perfectly legal.

DOJ person is reading the transfer as instate intrafamilial, I think. DOJ is notoriously uninformed about interstate transfers; it's the pits that FFLs have to know both CA and Fed regs, but can't get competent advice in one place.

It's not instate intrafamilial. Think of it as ID-Gramps walks into your CA-FFL and says "I know I need to use a CA FFL to satisfy those federal guys on an interstate transfer. I want to give this 1911 to my granddaughter, here. What do we both do?"

You know the transfer is intrafamilial - so whatever the gun is, as long as it's not an assault weapon, you don't need to worry about the Roster.

But it's interstate, so Feds over-ride CA's intrafamilial form. This is like a PPT with extra fees - the CA-FFL collects a transfer fee and a DROS fee, and you all do 4473 and DROS paperwork, and the FFL takes custody of the weapon for 10 days or until DOJ rejects the transfer. The CA-FFL follows CA law for transferring a handgun to an unlicensed person - HSC required, safety demo required, safety device required.

Thank you Librarian,

Okay... we are close to understanding. We are going to be good info contact by the time we done with this.

If as you say, "ID-Gramps walks into your CA-FFL and says 'I know I need to use a CA FFL to satisfy those federal guys on an interstate transfer. I want to give this 1911 to my granddaughter, here. What do we both do?"

Both Gramps and GD at my shop, I say... Good! You are here! You drove this gorgeous 1911 to your granddaughter... (This the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil thing we discussed yesterday - it's not right, but we have what we have)... I continue talking w/ Gramps; here is a form REPORT OF OPERATION OF LAW OR INTRA-FAMILIAL HANDGUN TRANSACTION... take it home, fill it out, send it to DOJ with $19, give the 1911 to little Jane and vwalla! - Done.

I don't want no dang money... I am dealing with a Grampa and Granddaughter situation here... this is American Heritage.

However, if you gonna SHIP the 1911 - ID FFL Dealer to CA FFL Dealer. Granddaughter comes in... She says to me, "okay, I'm here for my Grampa's Gun to fill out the paperwork".

See, that 1911 is now entered in my Acquisition Book, and it requires a 4473, and DROS Entry System to release i.e. disposition.

Question: Am I REQUIRED to enter an HSC Number the on-line DOJ DROS Entry System?

NO.

This DROS is entered in 'Curio/Relic/Olympic Pistol/Exempt' heading... then you enter the handgun, because it is NOT on the 'Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale' the drop down window lists ALL handgun manufactures on the market... go to 'Purchaser' tab... look down below... there is an exempt title called 'HSC Exemption Code' - what does 'exemption' mean? Lastly select 'Operation of Law Representative' in the drop-down window of HSC Exemption.

Do you want to have little Jane the Granddaughter take an HSC Test? Okay, good... you may do that... want to charge $25 for the HSC Card? You may do that as well... your discretion.

Scenario 1:
Is little Jane new to firearms? Then I would have her take the test, and we talk about safety, do the HSC Safety Demo... I would probably charge her my cost of the HSC Test $15, and not $25... I dunno, it's a Grampa thing!

Scenario 2:
Is Little Jane NOT so little? She conveys to you that she is an avid shooter, and through brief conversation you say to yourself... gee, little Jane actually big Jane and she knows her guns! - I would NEVER even mention HSC!

And yes the 10 day waiting period does apply, proof of residence etc.

This is the conversation I had with the DOJ Rep yesterday.

Please explain what you mean here: "...until DOJ rejects the transfer..." (?)

Librarian
12-25-2008, 10:35 PM
If as you say, "ID-Gramps walks into your CA-FFL and says 'I know I need to use a CA FFL to satisfy those federal guys on an interstate transfer. I want to give this 1911 to my granddaughter, here. What do we both do?"

Both Gramps and GD at my shop, I say... Good! You are here! You drove this gorgeous 1911 to your granddaughter... (This the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil thing we discussed yesterday - it's not right, but we have what we have)... I continue talking w/ Gramps; here is a form REPORT OF OPERATION OF LAW OR INTRA-FAMILIAL HANDGUN TRANSACTION... take it home, fill it out, send it to DOJ with $19, give the 1911 to little Jane and vwalla! - Done.

If Gramps lives in ID instead of CA, and you do this, you have encouraged Gramps to violate Federal law.

18 USC 922 (a)(5) says a non-licensed person may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed person who does not live in the same state where the seller/transferor lives. ID-Gramps has no license. CA-Granddaughter does not live in ID, where Gramps lives. The transaction must go through an FFL in the state of the transferee - in this case, the daughter who lives in CA, and you, the CA FFL.

I don't want no dang money... I am dealing with a Grampa and Granddaughter situation here... this is American Heritage.
You're a particularly nice guy if you'll waive your interstate transfer fee for intrafamilial transfers.

However, if you gonna SHIP the 1911 - ID FFL Dealer to CA FFL Dealer. Granddaughter comes in... She says to me, "okay, I'm here for my Grampa's Gun to fill out the paperwork".

See, that 1911 is now entered in my Acquisition Book, and it requires a 4473, and DROS Entry System to release i.e. disposition.
And so should it be if he walks in from ID rather than ships it from an ID FFL. The gun is still, legally, coming from ID.

Question: Am I REQUIRED to enter an HSC Number the on-line DOJ DROS Entry System?

NO.

This DROS is entered in 'Curio/Relic/Olympic Pistol/Exempt' heading... then you enter the handgun, because it is NOT on the 'Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale' the drop down window lists ALL handgun manufactures on the market... go to 'Purchaser' tab... look down below... there is an exempt title called 'HSC Exemption Code' - what does 'exemption' mean? Lastly select 'Operation of Law Representative' in the drop-down window of HSC Exemption.

...

This is the conversation I had with the DOJ Rep yesterday.
Not being an FFL, therefore not having access to the DROS software, I can't criticize this, but it sounds wrong.

If it were the case that this were an in-CA intrafamilial transfer, then Gramps and Granddaughter wouldn't be there at all - no FFL needed, just file the form and pay the fee, and the HSC is obviously on the honor system. But the PC I posted is quite definite that the transferee in an intrafamilial handgun transaction must have the HSC.

Please explain what you mean here: "...until DOJ rejects the transfer..." (?)

Ah - Granddaughter may be a felon and fail the background check; if that were to be so, DOJ rejects the transfer, and you are supposed to not deliver it to Granddaughter, and if I understand correctly, you are required to return the gun to the seller/transferor (after a DROS background check of the transferor!).

Honestly, I think you got the janitor at DOJ, not a firearms specialist.

ZirconJohn
12-26-2008, 11:25 AM
If Gramps lives in ID instead of CA, and you do this, you have encouraged Gramps to violate Federal law.

No, not encourage... as I said previous, it's mot right... but would be okay if done. DOJ says DO NOT recomend this, but would suffice to complete transaction this way. Transactions just happen this way.

18 USC 922 (a)(5) says a non-licensed person may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed person who does not live in the same state where the seller/transferor lives. ID-Gramps has no license. CA-Granddaughter does not live in ID, where Gramps lives. The transaction must go through an FFL in the state of the transferee - in this case, the daughter who lives in CA, and you, the CA FFL.

Yup... academic.

You're a particularly nice guy if you'll waive your interstate transfer fee for intrafamilial transfers.

Thank you... I love American Heritage, if I wasn't a gun dealer I would be a historian.

And so should it be if he walks in from ID rather than ships it from an ID FFL. The gun is still, legally, coming from ID.

Yes! Exactly.

Not being an FFL, therefore not having access to the DROS software, I can't criticize this, but it sounds wrong.

I know... I gree, sounds wrong to me too! In fact it sounds so wrong, I called DOJ again the other day when we first this volly, I called though I knew the answer. HSC Exempt/Operation of Law Represientative = NO HSC Documentation. Now I shall reiterate; does NOT mean you don't have to issue one, or get photo copy of their card (if they have one), just means "not required".

If it were the case that this were an in-CA intrafamilial transfer, then Gramps and Granddaughter wouldn't be there at all - no FFL needed, just file the form and pay the fee, and the HSC is obviously on the honor system. But the PC I posted is quite definite that the transferee in an intrafamilial handgun transaction must have the HSC.

Well, yes according to Law... not according to paperwork. I know... it's weird. Now, check it out... I will call DOJ again whenever I do another deal like this.

Ah - Granddaughter may be a felon and fail the background check; if that were to be so, DOJ rejects the transfer, and you are supposed to not deliver it to Granddaughter, and if I understand correctly, you are required to return the gun to the seller/transferor (after a DROS background check of the transferor!).

Oh ya... okay, I know that, just didn't finish the sentence.

Honestly, I think you got the janitor at DOJ, not a firearms specialist.

Nope... I call DOJ ALL THE TIME! In fact... you call them and discuss this and get back to me. This is very interesting material... I mean, you a very smart guy and I know if I have a question you probably have the answer. Please call DOJ and let's see, I would like to be in perfect agrement what we have here, and settle this question of Intra-Familial Operation of Law.

Note: I gotta get them quote tags figured out, my post inside your post... I know how to do it... no time right now I gotta get to work. Thanks, jd

bwiese
12-26-2008, 11:29 AM
Nope... OI call DOJ ALL THE TIME! In fact... you call them and discuss this and get back to me. This is very interesting material... I mean, you a very smart guy and I know if I have a question you probably have the answer. Please call DOJ and let's see, I would like to be in perfect agrement what we have here, and settle this question of Intra-Familial Operation of Law.


Calling DOJ is irrelevant. You are talking to glorified clerks/secretaries there.

There's a 50% chance you will get a correct answer from the phone staff there except for typical routine paperwork stuff. The DOJ staff often operates on assumptions & approximations of the law, not the law itself.

You will find better analysis/discussion here than from most DOJ staffers.

DOJ BoF has given many incorrect answers, esp in relation to Federal matters that overlap CA matters and in fact several DOJ staffers were recommending committing Federal felonies.

Librarian
12-26-2008, 11:54 AM
If Gramps lives in ID instead of CA, and you do this, you have encouraged Gramps to violate Federal law.

No, not encourage... as I said previous, it's mot right... but would be okay if done. DOJ says DO NOT recomend this, but would suffice to complete transaction this way. Transactions just happen this way.

I sure hope 'transactions do NOT just happen this way'. It's not OK, at all.

18 USC 922 (a)(5) says a non-licensed person may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed person who does not live in the same state where the seller/transferor lives. ID-Gramps has no license. CA-Granddaughter does not live in ID, where Gramps lives. The transaction must go through an FFL in the state of the transferee - in this case, the daughter who lives in CA, and you, the CA FFL.

Yup... academic.

Not academic at all. The penalty for violating 18 USC 922 (a)(5) is FIVE YEARS IN THE FEDERAL PENITENTIARY.(or a $10,000 fine, IIRC)

CA DOJ doesn't care. They're not responsible for enforcing Federal law - but BATF thinks you, as a licensed firearms dealer, are. The Feds have no concept of 'intrafamilial transfer'.

See this post (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=114142) for more info.

If the handgun comes in from an owner in another state besides the one where you do business, the gun MUST go through the 4473 process.

And California says if you, as an FFL, deliver a handgun to an unlicensed person, you have to do a bunch of things you know very well - DROS, waiting period, HSC, handling demonstration, and safety device/lock.

ZirconJohn
12-26-2008, 5:08 PM
Calling DOJ is irrelevant. You are talking to glorified clerks/secretaries there.

There's a 50% chance you will get a correct answer from the phone staff there except for typical routine paperwork stuff. The DOJ staff often operates on assumptions & approximations of the law, not the law itself.

You will find better analysis/discussion here than from most DOJ staffers.

DOJ BoF has given many incorrect answers, esp in relation to Federal matters that overlap CA matters and in fact several DOJ staffers were recommending committing Federal felonies.

Thank you Bwiese... and thank you Librarian,

Okay to call you BW and LB?

Here's the way I see things...

BW has approx 357.50 posts per month
LB has approx 72.50 posts per month

I am a just a new kid on the block here at CG.

Been in firearms sales in a retail store here in Ukiah, I was there four (4) years... we averaged 5 to 7 DROS applications per day between about four employees, including owners.

So I have done my share...

Now I own a business, I work out of my home and thank you Chief Dewey of Ukiah Police Dept for helping me out with that deal.

I run a very good business from my home... what being in the business both as an employee and now an owner.

I am not an expert. I think no-one can ever become an expert at this DOJ thing..., so we need all the help we can get. The important thing here is that the customer, the gun buyer gets what they want, and we get it to them the RIGHT way.

So... what I am asking is this here... can I stay in touch with you guys and ask questions even if it's run of the mill, sound stupid type questions... as I say, I am not an expert. I have only one goal in my business and that's to get it to the customer the RIGHT way!

With 430 post per month between the two of yous... I think I am making friends with the right people on the block, as a new kid that is...

Are we good with that?

ZJ

bwiese
12-26-2008, 5:17 PM
So... what I am asking is this here... can I stay in touch with you guys and ask questions even if it's run of the mill, sound stupid type questions... as I say, I am not an expert. I have only one goal in my business and that's to get it to the customer the RIGHT way!

With 430 post per month between the two of yous... I think I am making friends with the right people on the block, as a new kid that is...

There are very many bright and friendly people here who want to help gun deealers and owners be successful, stay out of trouble, and yet at the same time not be limited to 'approximate' law but what is actually legal.

And feel free to call me anything but late to dinner ;)

Librarian
12-26-2008, 6:06 PM
Thank you Bwiese... and thank you Librarian,

Okay to call you BW and LB?

With 430 post per month between the two of yous... I think I am making friends with the right people on the block, as a new kid that is...

Are we good with that?

ZJDefinitely I'm good with that - and don't hesitate to point out things that don't look right. Re-evaluation is usually a good idea. I know I've changed my mind about stuff from feedback here, and I'm sure I will again!