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BigBamBoo
12-23-2008, 5:09 PM
............

M. D. Van Norman
12-23-2008, 5:13 PM
How early in the 1990s will make all the difference legally with regards to registration. Beyond that, it is not illegal to acquire a firearm, though the sale itself may have been “illegal.”

USN CHIEF
12-23-2008, 5:34 PM
All he has to do is send in the paperwork to the DOJ for registration if he wants to register it. DOJ does not care how long your gun has been unregistered as long as it gets registered before the po po finds it.

Shotgun Man
12-23-2008, 6:00 PM
Let sleeping dogs lie.

There's no specific requirement that handguns be registered, i.e., there's no statute that says possession of an unregistered handgun is against the law.

I think you can illegally acquire a firearm, and your friend may have done just that. However, who knows what year he acquired it? In any event, I would think the statute of limitations has passed.

If your friend violates the law with the gun, e.g., carries concealed illegally, the fact that it is unregistered can cause a greater punishment.

Meplat
12-23-2008, 7:20 PM
I explained that handguns needed to be registered.



FUD!

Who told you that?:nuts::fud::willy_nilly:

Meplat
12-23-2008, 7:25 PM
Let sleeping dogs lie.

There's no specific requirement that handguns be registered, i.e., there's no statute that says possession of an unregistered handgun is against the law.

I think you can illegally acquire a firearm, and your friend may have done just that.

FUD! only the seller would have broaken the law.

However, who knows what year he acquired it? In any event, I would think the statute of limitations has passed.

If your friend violates the law with the gun, e.g., carries concealed illegally, the fact that it is unregistered can cause a greater punishment.:chris:

bwiese
12-23-2008, 7:53 PM
Generally, transfers of guns within CA after 1/1/1991 needed to be papered thru a CA FFL, w/10days wait, etc. (Transfers of guns between residents of differing states requires FFL usage - to keep the BATF happy.)

Folks moving into California after 1/1/1998 also have to declare/register their handguns w/DOJ.

But there is no generaly requirement that handguns need to be registered. Millions of them aren't, because they were traded, gifted, sold in parking lots, etc. before the cutoff dates.

If the handgun was a model that existed before 1/1/1991, and no other documented history of transfer was on the books after (or even near) that date, the only proof of any illegal transfer would be either the selling party (who's probably forgotten) or the the individual we're discussing here opening his big mouth and talking himself into trouble.

If the the person were to file a Voluntary Registration form with DOJ, I don't think they'd balk too much - they seem to wanna get it on the books more than go after someone for something relatively minor 18 -20 years ago. However, one should not perjure onesself on the reg form. If he does not remember the exact date of transfer an approixmate date should be supplied, to the best of his recollection.

BigBamBoo
12-23-2008, 8:06 PM
............

Shotgun Man
12-23-2008, 8:10 PM
:chris:

You shouldn't make your comment inline on a quote. I makes it impossible to quote you.

Also, I merely said I think it is possible to illegally acquire a handgun. I never pronounced it as gospel. Your FUD accusation is misplaced.

Many of you overuse the term FUD to rudely snipe at people who make innocent misinterpretations.

bwiese
12-23-2008, 8:20 PM
Ahhh...well when I went and talked to the Sheriff's Dept. about CCW for myself...the deputy told me the pistol(s) must be registered in my name. So I told my buddy before he could go down and get a CCW with that pistol of his...it needed to be registered.

If this not correct then give the Shasta Co. Sheriff's Dept a call and tell them they do not know what they are talking about....I would love to hear their response.

You are confusing things.

Some depts. may require handguns to be registered to be on a CCW.

However, there is no blanket policy that any given handgun has to be registered.

But I am sure there are many other things the Shasta Co. sheriff's dept. doesn't know - that's why they're sheriffs.

jrsportssupply
12-23-2008, 8:31 PM
Since the Sheriff requires the gun to be registered, the OP will need to fill out this form and send it to DOJ with $19:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf

As stated above, I think DOJ is much more interested in getting guns registered than trying to figure out who bought what, when.

Meplat
12-23-2008, 11:15 PM
Ahhh...well when I went and talked to the Sheriff's Dept. about CCW for myself...the deputy told me the pistol(s) must be registered in my name. So I told my buddy before he could go down and get a CCW with that pistol of his...it needed to be registered.

If this not correct then give the Shasta Co. Sheriff's Dept a call and tell them they do not know what they are talking about....I would love to hear their response.

Peace,Stan

"I explained that handguns needed to be registered."

"handguns need to be registered" is what you said. Not handguns needed to be registered if you want to put them on your CCW.

What you said was FUD don't try to wiggle out of it.:D

Meplat
12-23-2008, 11:27 PM
I apologize. But it drives me nuts that people insist on believing that CA requires handgun registration. And believing the buyer is at fault if an unlawful transaction takes place. The only thing the buyer has to worry about is possessing an unlawful weapon.
:oops:
You shouldn't make your comment inline on a quote. I makes it impossible to quote you.

Also, I merely said I think it is possible to illegally acquire a handgun. I never pronounced it as gospel. Your FUD accusation is misplaced.

Many of you overuse the term FUD to rudely snipe at people who make innocent misinterpretations.

M. D. Van Norman
12-24-2008, 12:07 AM
Indeed! This is a big part of why gun-control “laws” have avoided Supreme Court review for so long. However, the successful control of sales eventually led the prohibitionists to overreach.

becxltoo984
12-24-2008, 12:22 AM
New residents are required but what is you already live here and bring some back with you . Out of state private party purchase .I Email DOJ twice with this question they never responded .

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/ab991.php

M. D. Van Norman
12-24-2008, 12:34 AM
Most people will tell you that an out-of-state private-party transfer is “illegal,” but I have never bothered to verify this.

ke6guj
12-24-2008, 12:40 AM
Most people will tell you that an out-of-state private-party transfer is “illegal,” but I have never bothered to verify this.
Yup, it is illegal if you don't have it transferred through a CA dealer. CA residents can't even take possession of firearms from an out-of-state dealer while at his licensed premises.

B1 prohibits the seller from selling to an unlicensed resident of another state. And B2 prohibits the buyer from buying while in another state.

((B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]


A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

becxltoo984
12-24-2008, 12:40 AM
Yeah I've heard that one too but when dose it become illegal when you cross the state lines ?
Or when you make the deal out of state ?

M. D. Van Norman
12-24-2008, 12:50 AM
Yup, it is illegal if you don’t have it transferred through a CA dealer. CA residents can't even take possession of firearms from an out-of-state dealer while at his licensed premises.

True, but becxltoo984’s question was not about dealer transfers. The summary you posted is also nice, but it’s still not the law. I’ve never bothered to search the U.S. code for this specific restriction, because I suspect it can’t be found.

rabagley
12-24-2008, 12:56 AM
Okay, I've got one. I moved here in 2003. I left my guns at my dad's place in Texas. This year I started to get back into plinking and hunting and decided to bring a few of my already owned handguns from Texas to California when I next visit Texas.

I'm no longer eligible to use the gun importer form, as that's supposed to be completed within 30 days of moving to California with your guns.

CA DOJ says that I should fill out the voluntary registration form after I bring the handguns into California. He seemed very insistent that I should do that, but did not use the word "must".

What am I legally obligated to do in this situation?

M. D. Van Norman
12-24-2008, 1:01 AM
I believe that you are still good to go with the personal-importer form, so long as you aren’t importing any “assault weapons.” Just file it within the prescribed time frame of bringing the handguns into California.

ke6guj
12-24-2008, 1:02 AM
I know it was just a summary, but it lists the proper code sections to look at.

OK, here are the code sections for you.

This is where it says that an unlicensed person cannot go out of state to purchase a firearm from a private party.
Sec. 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive
in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other
business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm
purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State:
Provided, That the provisions of this section:
(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by
bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of
residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that
State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such
firearm in that State,
(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or
shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the
transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at
the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of
Sec. 478.96(c) and
(c) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm
obtained in conformity with the provisions of Sec. Sec. 478.30 and
478.97.

This is where it says that a unlicensed person cannot sell a firearm to person who lives in another state
Sec. 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or
deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows
or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That
the provisions of this section:
(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of
a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is
permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of
his residence; and
(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person
for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

M. D. Van Norman
12-24-2008, 1:20 AM
Looks like it does exist. Thanks for doing the legwork.

Seesm
12-24-2008, 2:20 AM
The way the law speaks does confuse easy...
Me at least!! :)

randy
12-24-2008, 2:39 AM
Geez somebody lock up the FUD police.

BigBamboo was trying to help a friend doing his leg work. He was explaining to the best of his knowledge. Just explain what you feel is correct and get over the fud crap.

BigBamBoo
12-24-2008, 8:36 AM
............

tuolumnejim
12-24-2008, 9:35 AM
Generally, transfers of guns within CA after 1/1/1991 needed to be papered thru a CA FFL, w/10days wait, etc. (Transfers of guns between residents of differing states requires FFL usage - to keep the BATF happy.)



Never have never will, I do NOT recognize the States ability to deprive or inhibit a citizen of a God given right.

Glock22Fan
12-24-2008, 9:59 AM
No one has yet mentioned - I think - the possibility that the firearm might have been stolen before your friend bought it and may show up on a list.

Apart from that possibility, there is no problem with him now voluntarily registering the firearm - they are indeed not that worried about whether it was registered, just that it is going to be registered.

redcliff
12-24-2008, 10:10 AM
You are confusing things.

Some depts. may require handguns to be registered to be on a CCW.

However, there is no blanket policy that any given handgun has to be registered.

But I am sure there are many other things the Shasta Co. sheriff's dept. doesn't know - that's why they're sheriffs.

Fortunately Shasta County's Sheriff knows that handguns in the hands of trained lawfully abiding citizen's is a good thing, something that Sheriff's in the big cities don't seem to know.

Stan is right that Shasta County requires all CCW weapons to be registerred in your name.

Glock22Fan
12-24-2008, 11:01 AM
Stan is right that Shasta County requires all CCW weapons to be registerred in your name.

I don't know specifically about Shasta, but many (most?) sheriffs who issue CCW's know that husbands and wives sometimes carry each others' guns and are comfortable letting you have on your CCW a firearm registered to your spouse.

MP301
12-25-2008, 12:19 AM
I would tell your friend not to register the gun and just buy another one for CCW if he can afford it. Registering guns unecessarily, that were purchased before the cutt-off date, makes very little practical sense. It just lets the gov know where another gun is. Serves no positive purpose for us.

It looks like the gun was most likely purchased before the cutoff date because I remember newspapers either stopped allowing gun sales in the classifieds or put a nice warning in the sporting goods sections about having to go through a dealer, etc. Im assuming that your friend is not shady and would remember doing something that he knew was illegal.

And remember that getting caught CCW without a permit changes from a Misdemeanor to a Felony if the gun is not registered to you!

Librarian
12-25-2008, 2:48 AM
Yeah I've heard that one too but when dose it become illegal when you cross the state lines ?
Or when you make the deal out of state ?

Let me re-arrange what you wrote:
when does it become illegal?
when you cross the state lines.

You, as an unlicensed California resident, may not buy guns outside of California and bring them back here, nor may licensed or unlicensed individuals sell to someone who does not reside in the same state. (50 year-old C&R long guns excepted, from an FFL)

See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=114142

ke6guj already got the important part.

blackbox
12-25-2008, 6:01 PM
Okay, I've got one. I moved here in 2003. I left my guns at my dad's place in Texas. This year I started to get back into plinking and hunting and decided to bring a few of my already owned handguns from Texas to California when I next visit Texas.

I'm no longer eligible to use the gun importer form, as that's supposed to be completed within 30 days of moving to California with your guns.

CA DOJ says that I should fill out the voluntary registration form after I bring the handguns into California. He seemed very insistent that I should do that, but did not use the word "must".

What am I legally obligated to do in this situation?

This is another common misconception. The form must be filled out within 60 days of the gun entering the state, not you. So you could keep a locker full of guns in another state that you obtained previously, and periodically bring them into CA perfectly legally, as long as you registered (or sold!) them within 60 days:


On or after January 1, 1998, within 60 days of bringing a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person into this state....

BigBamBoo
12-25-2008, 6:20 PM
...........

MP301
12-25-2008, 6:51 PM
It is not required to be registered unless purchased after jan 1991. As long as its not CCW and is not in the system as stolen, all you have to do is tell them it was purchased before registration was required. This wont work if there are records showing it was purchased after the cutoff date, or if it was a model that wasnt even manufactured until after that date, etc. Again, I am assuming it was a legal sale. Does anyone know of a way to check a guns status with DOJ?

bwiese
12-25-2008, 6:51 PM
Ok...so what happens when/if you get stopped by a LEO,fish cop,etc. and they ask you if the pistol is in your name and/or registered?

If you answer honestly with a no... and he says why not? What then?


"There is no general requirement that handguns be registered."

Any deeper questioning: "Call my lawyer."

Meplat
12-27-2008, 12:08 AM
Not even DOJ knows of a way!

It is not required to be registered unless purchased after jan 1991. As long as its not CCW and is not in the system as stolen, all you have to do is tell them it was purchased before registration was required. This wont work if there are records showing it was purchased after the cutoff date, or if it was a model that wasnt even manufactured until after that date, etc. Again, I am assuming it was a legal sale. Does anyone know of a way to check a guns status with DOJ?

CSACANNONEER
12-27-2008, 6:21 AM
Let me re-arrange what you wrote:
when does it become illegal?
when you cross the state lines.

You, as an unlicensed California resident, may not buy guns outside of California and bring them back here, nor may licensed or unlicensed individuals sell to someone who does not reside in the same state. (50 year-old C&R long guns excepted, from an FFL)

See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=114142

ke6guj already got the important part.


It's early and I don't have much time so, I may be misunderstanding what you are trying to imply. Are you saying that an out of state purchase would only be illegal after crossing state lines? If this is what you are implying, I think you are wrong. I'll agree that Ca law would only take affect at the time one enters the state. But, since federal law prohibits the sale, a crime would be committed at the time of the sale and both the buyer and seller would be guilty of that crime. Please, enlighten me if I'm wrong.

bwiese
12-27-2008, 12:52 PM
It's early and I don't have much time so, I may be misunderstanding what you are trying to imply. Are you saying that an out of state purchase would only be illegal after crossing state lines? If this is what you are implying, I think you are wrong. I'll agree that Ca law would only take affect at the time one enters the state. But, since federal law prohibits the sale, a crime would be committed at the time of the sale and both the buyer and seller would be guilty of that crime. Please, enlighten me if I'm wrong.

Yes, if a California resident tried to buy a gun (direct, paper-free, no FFLs used) while out of state or from an out-of-state resident then that actually a no-go from the start.

M. D. Van Norman
12-28-2008, 2:18 AM
The trouble there, though, is that a paperless transaction is a paperless transaction.

wellerjohn
01-02-2009, 1:23 AM
No one has yet mentioned - I think - the possibility that the firearm might have been stolen before your friend bought it and may show up on a list.

Apart from that possibility, there is no problem with him now voluntarily registering the firearm - they are indeed not that worried about whether it was registered, just that it is going to be registered.

Wonder what would happen if it was a stolen firearm, the guy did not know it and tried to register it?

d_hammy
01-02-2009, 2:01 AM
You, as an unlicensed California resident, may not buy guns outside of California and bring them back here, nor may licensed or unlicensed individuals sell to someone who does not reside in the same state. (50 year-old C&R long guns excepted, from an FFL)

Just a side note. As active duty military stationed here in Cali, I've purchased guns here and also off list handguns in my state of residence (Florida), while on vacation and brought them back to Cali. When I called the DOJ I was told I had a loophole being military and was advised I still use the new resident form but told to leave the 15 round clips in Florida.

leitung
01-02-2009, 10:48 AM
I have family members who have un registered handguns dating from the 70's to early 90's. There is NO LAW that REQUIRES handgun registration. If you legally obtained them before the dealer transfer requirement went into effect (sometime in 2003 I think right?) then you are legal to own them. I would feel better having my registered with the DOJ and it can be done with a simple form on the DOJ website.