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Infidel
12-22-2008, 9:12 PM
My wife went to Big 5 earlier to buy me the Remington 770 7mm that's on sale for $369 and the Douche behind the counter said that it's a felony for someone to buy a gun for their spouse to use. Is this true? I was under the impression that buying a gun for someone else that is not a spouse is illegal, but I thought that for your spouse it was ok. I know she should have kept her mouth shut and just bought it but she's kinda new to the game.

ke6guj
12-22-2008, 9:29 PM
a person can buy a firearm to give to some one as a gift and that is legal federally, it says that right on the 4473. Doesn't have to be spouse, child, etc, it can be anybody legally allowed to own a firearm. CA law adds to that where you would need to do a PPT transfer to the recipient, unless there is an exemption, which you would have from the spouse.

It just scares the people at hte gunshop that you may be doing a straw purchase, and possibly trying to entrap them.

Thefeeder
12-22-2008, 9:38 PM
My wife went to Big 5 earlier to buy me the Remington 770 7mm that's on sale for $369 and the Douche behind the counter said that it's a felony for someone to buy a gun for their spouse to use. Is this true? I was under the impression that buying a gun for someone else that is not a spouse is illegal, but I thought that for your spouse it was ok. I know she should have kept her mouth shut and just bought it but she's kinda new to the game.


ILLEGAL......Your asking someone to commit a felony.

1) First rule to life..."Never offer information to anyone "
2) "Anything you say, can, and will, be held......."

Remember rule #2 if you want a long marrage

The SoCal Gunner
12-22-2008, 9:43 PM
ILLEGAL......Your asking someone to commit a felony.

1) First rule to life..."Never offer information to anyone "
2) "Anything you say, can, and will, be held......."

Remember rule #2 if you want a long marrage

Care to back that up?

ETA: Don't want to wait for your response so here it is. Faq #6 here http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#21

Can I give a firearm to my spouse or registered domestic partner? Can he/she give it back to me later?

Yes, as long as the person receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category PDF logo [PDF 10 kb / 1 pg] and the firearm is not an assault weapon, the transfer of a firearm between a husband and wife or registered domestic partners is exempt from the requirement to use a licensed dealer to perform the transfer. However, if the firearm is a handgun, the recipient must submit an Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction PDF logo [PDF 481 kb / 2 pg] and $19 fee to the DOJ within 30 days.

(PC sections 12076(f), 12078(i))

OCArmory
12-22-2008, 9:45 PM
It is OK for your wife to purchase it as a gift. I don't have a 4473 in front of me but it spells out that it is ok to purchase a firearm as a gift

s2000news
12-22-2008, 9:46 PM
It is legal for her to purchase the gun and give it to you.

(PC sections 12076(f), 12078(i))

Assuming you are able to purchase a gun legally on your own.

If a handgun, some paperwork is required, and a $19 DOJ fee. No FFL required though.

M. Sage
12-22-2008, 9:46 PM
ILLEGAL......Your asking someone to commit a felony.

1) First rule to life..."Never offer information to anyone "
2) "Anything you say, can, and will, be held......."

Remember rule #2 if you want a long marrage

No. It's only a straw sale if you buy a gun for someone who can't legally own one.

alex00
12-22-2008, 9:47 PM
ILLEGAL......Your asking someone to commit a felony.

1) First rule to life..."Never offer information to anyone "
2) "Anything you say, can, and will, be held......."

Remember rule #2 if you want a long marrage

So I guess it's a felony that my wife has the safe combo and can take any gun out at any time? I guess it's a felony if I tell her my shotgun is now hers? Quit spreading FUD.

Here's what the DOJ has to say:

Can I give a firearm to my spouse or registered domestic partner? Can he/she give it back to me later?

Yes, as long as the person receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category and the firearm is not an assault weapon, the transfer of a firearm between a husband and wife or registered domestic partners is exempt from the requirement to use a licensed dealer to perform the transfer. However, if the firearm is a handgun, the recipient must submit an Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction [PDF 481 kb / 2 pg] and $19 fee to the DOJ within 30 days.

(PC sections 12076(f), 12078(i))

ke6guj
12-22-2008, 9:49 PM
I don't have a 4473 in front of me but it spells out that it is ok to purchase a firearm as a giftATF pulled the new 4473 sample form, but this one does show it, http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/page03.htm , in Important notice #1, where it states a gift is OK.

Thefeeder
12-22-2008, 10:31 PM
ATF pulled the new 4473 sample form, but this one does show it, http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/page03.htm , in Important notice #1, where it states a gift is OK.


OK...I might be wrong.

Does the gun to be gifted, DROS to Mr Brown or Mr Black?

Can Mr. Brown buy the gun and have the gun DROS to Mr. Black? Does Mr.Black have to be there at all

If the wife wants to DROS to her and give it to the husband, fine.

If she wants to buy it and have the DROS under his name ???

I'm I going in the right direction?

Thefeeder
12-22-2008, 10:38 PM
Care to back that up?

ETA: Don't want to wait for your response so here it is. Faq #6 here http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#21

Are we talking "giving" or "DROS"

ke6guj
12-22-2008, 10:42 PM
OK...I might be wrong.

Does the gun to be gifted, DROS to Mr Brown or Mr Black?

Can Mr. Brown buy the gun and have the gun DROS to Mr. Black? Does Mr.Black have to be there at all

Mr Brown could DROS the gun and then pick it up after 10 days. He could then PPT it to Mr. Black. He could also give the money to Mr. Black to purchase it directly. But having Mr. Brown pay for the gun and having Mr. Black do the DROS would probably not be kosher. Mr. Brown could buy a gift cert for the out-the-door price of the gun, give that to MR. Black, and tell him to go buy that gun as his present.

Remember, in other states, where private party transfers can be done paperless, a guy could go into a gun store and buy five remington 870s as gifts for friends. once he took them home, he could then give them to his friends legally. The same happens in CA, you just have to PPT the gift, unless it is in an intrafamily exempt transaction (just send in a form for handguns).



If the wife wants to DROS to her and give it to the husband, fine.

If she wants to buy it and have the DROS under his name ???

I'm I going in the right direction?If they want it DROSed under his name, then he would need to go to the gunstore and do the DROS. But, since long guns are not registered, it doesn't really matter. And any tracing would just come back to the spouse, which is no big deal.

The SoCal Gunner
12-22-2008, 10:46 PM
Are we talking "giving" or "DROS"

OP asked if his wife buying the gun for him was illegal and it is not. The wife can buy the long gun and give it to him.

He never mentioned her buying the gun and DROSing it in his name which still wouldn't be illegal if he were present to do the DROS but some FFLs are weary of this if it were the other way around.

jamesob
12-22-2008, 10:46 PM
ILLEGAL......Your asking someone to commit a felony.

1) First rule to life..."Never offer information to anyone "
2) "Anything you say, can, and will, be held......."

Remember rule #2 if you want a long marrageLMFAO

nick
12-22-2008, 10:54 PM
My wife went to Big 5 earlier to buy me the Remington 770 7mm that's on sale for $369 and the Douche behind the counter said that it's a felony for someone to buy a gun for their spouse to use. Is this true? I was under the impression that buying a gun for someone else that is not a spouse is illegal, but I thought that for your spouse it was ok. I know she should have kept her mouth shut and just bought it but she's kinda new to the game.

Happened to me once when I was buying a couple of 91/30 Mosins from Big5 and mentioned that I better tell my brother, he might want one. Apparently, one of the many policies Big5 has on firearms (mostly the moronic kind) is that if an employee hears that a gun may be bought for someone else, he must refer it to his manager and not sell the firearm. A call to their corporate office confirmed this policy (unless they lied there, too). Well, I just put them on hold and bought them the day after from another employee. Still have both :D

s2000news
12-22-2008, 11:22 PM
My understanding is a spouse transfer of a long gun does not require a PPT. A handgun does not require a PPT either, but does require a form sent in and a DOJ fee of $19.

However, when we change it from spouse to 'friend' or anything other than direct family, PPT is required.

bellson
12-22-2008, 11:29 PM
Hello All,

I am not meaning to stir up the pot any further....But as a former FFL, I would offer these thoughts:

On the ******* side;

1. No FFL is required to sell you anything. If I don't like the way you look, or pick any reason under the heavens, I can refuse service to you. Sorry, that is my God-Given Right. If I make a habit of refusing service to a particular group; pick one.....Roman Catholics (I happen to be one), I could be sued or even charged with a criminal prejudice.

2. If you walk into my shop, and say anything that gives me the impression that your intent is to circumvent the law, Bye Bye....Refer to #1.

3. I have a lot more to lose here that you do. Don't F**K up my life! Between the CA-DOJ and the BATFE I have enough problems.

4. Wondering why I'm not an FFL any more?

On the Gun-Rights, 2A All-The-Way side:

1. Big 5, Walmart, K-Mart, Sears, JC Penny, and a whole bunch of other big players are no longer in the business because it is IMPOSSIBLE to train and maintain a customer service staff at x-hundreds of locations with consistent results nationwide. I know that Big 5 and Walmart are still in the biz, but for how long?

2. I agree that a spouse, who is not otherwise prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm, can receive a firearm from their spouse, parents, grandparents as a gift without a 4473 or a DROS. There are some exceptions, but they relate to Kalifornia AW, and Class 3 types of firearms.

3. It would be best for our spouses to know who to go to for assistance on these matters. My lovely wife asked one of my shooting biddies to assist her, and it all went off without a hitch......I have a Sig P220 now....I love my wife!

I am sorry that this happened, but I can completely understand how and why it did. I do not agree with it, the Big 5 guy should know his Federal Firearms laws as it regards legal transfers better than that. If this was truly a policy based issue, then do not buy from Big 5 again. Let you wallet speak for you. I do not buy from them at all.

Best wishes to all.

Bellson

Infidel
12-22-2008, 11:50 PM
I went into the Big 5 just now and talked with the same guy who my wife talked to, and he re-iterated that it's against the law for my wife to buy me a gun as a gift so I showed him the printout from the AG's website. After he read it the conversation went pretty much like this


Guy: "ok it's not illegal, but I can't sell it to her because it’s against the straw purchase law, because I don't know if you can legally posses a firearm."

Me: the purchase would only be illegal if she purchased it, waited the 10 days and then gave it to her spouse who couldn't posses a firearm, and that no where in that equation would you be liable.

Guy: Yes, but if ATF was at the store and heard that she said "I'm buying this for my husband" and then I sold it to her and ATF checked and found that you cannot own a gun then all three of us would be Felons.

Me: No that’s not true because the straw purchase law is based on the honor system, and that you will not buy a gun for someone who cannot posses one. It is only illegal to purchase a gun for someone who cannot posses one. A dealer cannot be held liable for what someone does with a gun after it was legally purchased. Unless she walked in and said “I'm giving this as a gift to my ex-con husband because he can't buy one on his own.” you can’t be held liable.

Guy: “I just can’t do it because it’s against the law”

Me: But it’s not against the law…Look I understand it’s against company policy, and you just don’t want to get in trouble with the company or the ATF, but it’s not against the law

Guy: It’s not company policy, it’s the law

Me: Look at your own company printout against straw purchases, nowhere here does it say buying a gun for someone else is illegal. It says “buying a gun for someone who cannot posses one is illegal”… right?

Guy: Yeah, but it’s still against the law

Me: Nevermind we are just going in circles, I will come back tomorrow and buy it tomorrow for myself

I was like, WTF the guy was just going in circles and contradicting himself so I told him that I would come back tomorrow and buy it for myself because we weren’t getting anywhere, and because no one else had the same price on it…LOL

nick
12-23-2008, 12:41 AM
Hmm, that's the way I remember my argument with a Big 5 employee about picking up the rifle I bought from them after 10, as opposed to 11 days. I just gave up and picked it up later. Some people working there are good, but every now and then you get one of those.

redcliff
12-23-2008, 9:10 AM
Mr Brown could DROS the gun and then pick it up after 10 days. He could then PPT it to Mr. Black. He could also give the money to Mr. Black to purchase it directly. But having Mr. Brown pay for the gun and having Mr. Black do the DROS would probably not be kosher.

When I was drag racing back in the late 90's, I bought Colt AR-15's for my pit crew as Christmas presents and a thank you for all their donated hours of hard work. I went in and paid for them at my local dealer and then each of them went in and filled out the 4473 and dros.

Meplat
12-23-2008, 10:11 AM
Just another reason to support your local Mom & Pop shop.




Hello All,

I am not meaning to stir up the pot any further....But as a former FFL, I would offer these thoughts:

On the ******* side;

1. No FFL is required to sell you anything. If I don't like the way you look, or pick any reason under the heavens, I can refuse service to you. Sorry, that is my God-Given Right. If I make a habit of refusing service to a particular group; pick one.....Roman Catholics (I happen to be one), I could be sued or even charged with a criminal prejudice.

2. If you walk into my shop, and say anything that gives me the impression that your intent is to circumvent the law, Bye Bye....Refer to #1.

3. I have a lot more to lose here that you do. Don't F**K up my life! Between the CA-DOJ and the BATFE I have enough problems.

4. Wondering why I'm not an FFL any more?

On the Gun-Rights, 2A All-The-Way side:

1. Big 5, Walmart, K-Mart, Sears, JC Penny, and a whole bunch of other big players are no longer in the business because it is IMPOSSIBLE to train and maintain a customer service staff at x-hundreds of locations with consistent results nationwide. I know that Big 5 and Walmart are still in the biz, but for how long?

2. I agree that a spouse, who is not otherwise prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm, can receive a firearm from their spouse, parents, grandparents as a gift without a 4473 or a DROS. There are some exceptions, but they relate to Kalifornia AW, and Class 3 types of firearms.

3. It would be best for our spouses to know who to go to for assistance on these matters. My lovely wife asked one of my shooting biddies to assist her, and it all went off without a hitch......I have a Sig P220 now....I love my wife!

I am sorry that this happened, but I can completely understand how and why it did. I do not agree with it, the Big 5 guy should know his Federal Firearms laws as it regards legal transfers better than that. If this was truly a policy based issue, then do not buy from Big 5 again. Let you wallet speak for you. I do not buy from them at all.

Best wishes to all.

Bellson

Sam1
12-23-2008, 10:26 AM
tell your wife to just give you a gift card and go buy it yourself! unless you can't legally own firearms. . . .in that case you shouldn't even be pissed off at all! lol

fairfaxjim
12-23-2008, 2:14 PM
Well, let's see here.

1.CA DOJ BOF attorney's can't seem to figure out CA gun laws without major errors and resulting FUD. Many posts, letters, even a court trial or two on that subject.

2. Everyone expects Low$/hr. Big5 employee who spends most of day putting cheap chinese running shoes back into boxes and cheap chinese sweat pants on hangers to be expert on same CA gun laws.

3. Since Big 5 is still selling guns in CA using low$/hr employee's, they are a******s for putting in place a few extra "policies" that may allow them to keep selling said guns, at cheap prices too!

4. WalMart obviously didn't have enough "policies" in place to keep from having to give up selling guns in CA using low$/hr employees.

5. When the BS gets too deep to make a profit, the chain retailers are not going to handle the product, simple business decision. If they can cover their butts, not spend more on big fines, training, and other overhead for the product line, even if a few "policies" (including 11 day wait to make sure) that a few customers can't live with are necessary, they will.

A case in point is that during a flood & power outage, some years ago, The Big 5 in Corte Madera was burglarized and the firearms inventory cleaned out. Local govt. put so much BS in the way of them selling guns, that to this day, that Big 5 only sells ammo, airsoft and paintball. The other Big 5 in Marin county still does (different local gov.) Too much BS (actually cost to deal with BS), not worth selling the product line.

Pvt. Cowboy
12-23-2008, 2:54 PM
Man walks into a CA gun shop:

Man: "I'd like to buy a firearm for my spouse. Is that legal?"

Gun dealer behind the counter: "Certainly, sir... California law states that as long as the person receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category the transfer of a firearm between a husband and wife is permitted. You'll still have to fill out an ATF Form 4473, of course. Now then, sir... What your wife's name?

Man: "Jeffrey."

Thefeeder
12-24-2008, 2:24 PM
I went into the Big 5 just now and talked with the same guy who my wife talked to, and he re-iterated that it's against the law for my wife to buy me a gun as a gift so I showed him the printout from the AG's website. After he read it the conversation went pretty much like this


Guy: "ok it's not illegal, but I can't sell it to her because it’s against the straw purchase law, because I don't know if you can legally posses a firearm."

Me: the purchase would only be illegal if she purchased it, waited the 10 days and then gave it to her spouse who couldn't posses a firearm, and that no where in that equation would you be liable.

Guy: Yes, but if ATF was at the store and heard that she said "I'm buying this for my husband" and then I sold it to her and ATF checked and found that you cannot own a gun then all three of us would be Felons.

Me: No that’s not true because the straw purchase law is based on the honor system, and that you will not buy a gun for someone who cannot posses one. It is only illegal to purchase a gun for someone who cannot posses one. A dealer cannot be held liable for what someone does with a gun after it was legally purchased. Unless she walked in and said “I'm giving this as a gift to my ex-con husband because he can't buy one on his own.” you can’t be held liable.

Guy: “I just can’t do it because it’s against the law”

Me: But it’s not against the law…Look I understand it’s against company policy, and you just don’t want to get in trouble with the company or the ATF, but it’s not against the law

Guy: It’s not company policy, it’s the law

Me: Look at your own company printout against straw purchases, nowhere here does it say buying a gun for someone else is illegal. It says “buying a gun for someone who cannot posses one is illegal”… right?

Guy: Yeah, but it’s still against the law

Me: Nevermind we are just going in circles, I will come back tomorrow and buy it tomorrow for myself

I was like, WTF the guy was just going in circles and contradicting himself so I told him that I would come back tomorrow and buy it for myself because we weren’t getting anywhere, and because no one else had the same price on it…LOL


Did you get the rifle?.....We have to know the ending.

M. Sage
12-24-2008, 10:05 PM
IIRC, there is a way to have DOJ determine your eligibility to own firearms and do the background check without having to go to a gun shop. It costs a few bucks, though, and I don't remember how it works...

Infidel
12-24-2008, 11:02 PM
Man walks into a CA gun shop:

Man: "I'd like to buy a firearm for my spouse. Is that legal?"

Gun dealer behind the counter: "Certainly, sir... California law states that as long as the person receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category the transfer of a firearm between a husband and wife is permitted. You'll still have to fill out an ATF Form 4473, of course. Now then, sir... What your wife's name?

Man: "Jeffrey."

HAHAHAHAHA....That's awesome!!!

Did you get the rifle?.....We have to know the ending.

Well after all of this BS I actually stepped back from the situation and decided to go a different route and begin a varminter build. My deciding factor was when I went to the same Big 5 today to buy the rifle as well as some .223 ammo to add on to my brother's Xmas gift, and the same guy was behind the counter and when he looked at me he rolled his eyes, and during our brief conversation he was very curt with me. My decision was that I could either take the money and settle for a middle of the road Bolt Gun just because it was cheap or I could team that money with my existing "gun fund" and be well on my way to having a pretty nice AR Varminter build.

I already have the lower in my safe so I ordered lower parts kit /w 2 stage trigger, A2 Stock kit, and the "24 week back ordered :eek:" Stag 6H complete Upper. I figure that by the time my upper comes I should have enough saved for a decent scope. Thanks again to everyone who replied!!

jrsportssupply
12-24-2008, 11:07 PM
When I was drag racing back in the late 90's, I bought Colt AR-15's for my pit crew as Christmas presents and a thank you for all their donated hours of hard work. I went in and paid for them at my local dealer and then each of them went in and filled out the 4473 and dros.

This is what we do with firearm gifts, for several reasons. The gift giver buys the firearm, and takes the box with them on the day of purchase, to wrap and put under the tree etc. The gift recipient comes in later and registers the firearm.

Although it may be OK for the spouse to give a gun as a gift, our way is better because Murphy is omnipresent - whatever gun a spouse picks will be close to what the recipient wanted, but not the exact right model they wanted. Since we only took money on the gun but didn't register it, it's much easier to just apply that cash towards the gun the recipient really wanted in the first place. Kinda win-win; the gift giver gets to actually give a gift (an empty box), and the recipient gets what they really wanted, and there is no danger of a straw buy no matter what.

NiteQwill
12-24-2008, 11:23 PM
HAHAHAHAHA....That's awesome!!!



Well after all of this BS I actually stepped back from the situation and decided to go a different route and begin a varminter build. My deciding factor was when I went to the same Big 5 today to buy the rifle as well as some .223 ammo to add on to my brother's Xmas gift, and the same guy was behind the counter and when he looked at me he rolled his eyes, and during our brief conversation he was very curt with me. My decision was that I could either take the money and settle for a middle of the road Bolt Gun just because it was cheap or I could team that money with my existing "gun fund" and be well on my way to having a pretty nice AR Varminter build.

I already have the lower in my safe so I ordered lower parts kit /w 2 stage trigger, A2 Stock kit, and the "24 week back ordered :eek:" Stag 6H complete Upper. I figure that by the time my upper comes I should have enough saved for a decent scope. Thanks again to everyone who replied!!

Good job, bring your business elsewhere. I had a similar experience with a Big 5, the smartass behind the counter was making rude comments about "Are you going to go shoot up cars and trees? Why do you need so much ammo? (200 rounds of .45 :rolleyes: ) You look like someone who's up to no good." Mind you, I was dressed in suit sans blazer, taking a break from work. I let him ring up the entire sale then walked out without a word. I later, after work, went back to the store, talked to the manager, and the employee (after openly complaining he wasn't comfortable selling to a "potential criminal") was fired on the spot. Great day for me.