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lowracer
12-21-2008, 2:36 PM
deleted

Dark&Good
12-21-2008, 2:42 PM
I'm stuck with one thing regarding civil disobedience - it won't accomplish much if only a few people protest and it's happening in one spot only.

ptoguy2002
12-21-2008, 2:43 PM
I wouldn't see that ending well at all.

Davidwhitewolf
12-21-2008, 3:06 PM
Here's an example where nobody was hurt, but the result was that loaded open carry was banned in California:

http://www.softgreenglow.com/wp/?p=6815

nooner
12-21-2008, 3:08 PM
It would probably have to be Unarmed, Nonviolent Civil Disobedience. As opposed to the Rodney King riots where the police ran away and left you on your own against the unruly mob, this would bring the wrath of the JBT's.

Vacaville
12-21-2008, 3:10 PM
We could have UOC sit-ins in public places.

Pvt. Cowboy
12-21-2008, 3:14 PM
I've been thinking a lot lately about civil disobedience, nonviolent resistance, how these techniques have been successful in history. I think about Rosa Parks and Mahatma Gandhi and their techniques of peaceful resistance in the face of unjust laws, and how successful those have been at effecting change to those laws.

Who exactly would you be resisting and being disobedient on behalf of, and to what purpose?

bwiese
12-21-2008, 3:15 PM
That's really spinning for the negative, gentlemen.

We're doing fine right now and are moving forward rapidly.

Don't screw it up for the rest of us - don't be a Silviera/Gorsky.

nobody_special
12-21-2008, 3:17 PM
Frankly, given the attitudes in California, I'd be very concerned about a violent police response to open-carrying protesters.

jlh95811
12-21-2008, 3:23 PM
"State Police Halt Armed Negro Band"

Wow

timdps
12-21-2008, 3:26 PM
It would probably have to be Unarmed, Nonviolent Civil Disobedience.

+1
Perhaps START with unarmed, non violent, civil disobedience to get the powers that be used to the idea and then escalate to UOC.

I do see a possible problem of criminal charges escalating drastically because of the add-on penalties of carrying a gun when committing the "crime".

tim

N6ATF
12-21-2008, 3:31 PM
Perhaps if everyone had no ammo, then got zipped up in faux-straightjackets (the ones you can easily disengage but appear to be real) with "I AM NOT A CRIMINAL/I AM NOT INSANE" written on the front and back with red paint.

If any shots were fired or fists thrown, they would be from police guns and fists, and at restrained people. Video shot from multiple angles in surrounding buildings would show the worst ever one-sided exercise against the 2A.

domokun
12-21-2008, 4:08 PM
That's really spinning for the negative, gentlemen.

We're doing fine right now and are moving forward rapidly.

Don't screw it up for the rest of us - don't be a Silviera/Gorsky.

+1. This isn't the time for activism. It's time to keep things from hitting the media and taking our enemies by surprise.

Gp100
12-21-2008, 4:29 PM
Perhaps if everyone had no ammo, then got zipped up in faux-straightjackets (the ones you can easily disengage but appear to be real) with "I AM NOT A CRIMINAL/I AM NOT INSANE" written on the front and back with red paint.

If any shots were fired or fists thrown, they would be from police guns and fists, and at restrained people. Video shot from multiple angles in surrounding buildings would show the worst ever one-sided exercise against the 2A.If the police killed us all in a strait jacket They would be found
innocent of any crime. Its not fairness and legality our government wants its total control of the surfs.

hoffmang
12-21-2008, 4:44 PM
It's not yet time for that version of public action. The better version is to wear a coat and tie and no firearm to the Nordyke hearing (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137800) and attend dinner afterwards (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137797).

There will be a time and place for more after a couple of these cases are complete.

-Gene

joe4702
12-21-2008, 4:49 PM
Instead of waddling around in spray-painted fake straight-jackets, perhaps a donation to the Calguns Foundation would do more good at the moment.

HowardW56
12-21-2008, 6:27 PM
It's not yet time for that version of public action. The better version is to wear a coat and tie and no firearm to the Nordyke hearing (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137800) and attend dinner afterwards (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137797).

There will be a time and place for more after a couple of these cases are complete.

-Gene

Instead of waddling around in spray-painted fake straight-jackets, perhaps a donation to the Calguns Foundation would do more good at the moment.

These two posts make more sense... Be patient, the wheels of justice turn slowly...

LibertyGuy
12-21-2008, 6:41 PM
I would recommend looking into the Free State Project. I've been hearing stories over there in New Hampshire of civil disobedience actually working and it's sure making the bureaucrats listen. I plan on moving there someday soon. http://www.freestateproject.org

Annie Oakley
12-21-2008, 7:23 PM
Guys, there are so many things to consider when talking about this sort of thing. So, I had several questions going through my mind because of all of the posts I've read.

1. How many gun owners in California are activists or would be activists if asked ?

2. How many gun owners in California only have guns as a "hobby" and would be willing to give them up if told to by the state ?

3. How many citizens are rabidly antigun and would do their part to repeal the second amendment ?

4. How many people do not own a gun, but would if laws were less restrictive ?

5. And lastly, how many gun owners think that they should be one of the privileged few, and everyone else should be disarmed ?

The reason I ask these questions is because how these groups of people think about guns will be a factor in how they perceive any form of civil disobedience that is tied to firearms and the second amendment.

I understand that some are growing increasingly impatient because things are moving so slow. But, how can this make things better in a state that would love nothing more than to prove that anyone who owns a gun is a crazy person ? And how much news footage would the news people give this kind of thing along with their interpretation of events like this ? I would also ask you to consider what kind of spin police organizations would put on this kind of activity. Remember, some police departments are already suggesting or out right putting in memos that gun activists are out to get them. How many police chiefs have already talked to their local city councils about this ? And how many attorneys are looking for some kind of precedence to hang their opportunistic hats on ? We have Heller, and we have at least 2 decades of precedence to show that concealed carry is beneficial to societies good order and crime control. Cases like Nordyke are moving through the courts and there is the tiniest glimmer of light at the end of the judicial tunnel. Wouldn't it be a shame if somebody did something that unraveled all of that hard work ? Lastly I want to emphasize that this is not just for us as Californians, but for the rest of the country as well. Remember, our politicians are making up different ways to restrict gun ownership, and other states are following suit. Remember, our laws are now effecting Washington DC. That is something else to think about.

Mute
12-21-2008, 8:03 PM
I guarantee the media will spin such an event to make every participant look like a tin-foil hatting, racist, psychopath with easy access to deadly weapons.

HowardW56
12-21-2008, 9:02 PM
I guarantee the media will spin such an event to make every participant look like a tin-foil hatting, racist, psychopath with easy access to deadly weapons.

You bet they will... And they would make sure to publish all of the face photos they could.

It wouldn't suprise me if they tried to contact the friends and neighbors of the participants to paint them as wackos...

Dark&Good
12-21-2008, 9:37 PM
Nobody could publish 50million photos.

Meplat
12-21-2008, 11:18 PM
What "crime"?:rolleyes:


+1
Perhaps START with unarmed, non violent, civil disobedience to get the powers that be used to the idea and then escalate to UOC.

I do see a possible problem of criminal charges escalating drastically because of the add-on penalties of carrying a gun when committing the "crime".

tim

Meplat
12-21-2008, 11:32 PM
I refuse to sacrifice my dignity and go out and act like some global warming, save the whales idiot. I will fight with dignified legale means until there is no longer any hope and then I will start shooting the bastards. I think that you will find that so many of our supporters are of like mind that you have no hope of rallying sufficient numbers to make your circus proposals work.

Right now I think our slow but sure legale progress within the system is doing just fine

sfwdiy
12-22-2008, 12:20 AM
I refuse to sacrifice my dignity and go out and act like some global warming, save the whales idiot. I will fight with dignified legale means until there is no longer any hope and then I will start shooting the bastards. I think that you will find that so many of our supporters are of like mind that you have no hope of rallying sufficient numbers to make your circus proposals work.

Right now I think our slow but sure legale progress within the system is doing just fine

:iagree:

Seriously, when was the last time you saw a group protest on TV and didn't think, "What the H311 is wrong with those effin' fruit-loops? Don't they realize they look ridiculous with their costumes and their signs and dumb-a** slogans they're shouting?" Nothing says wacko to me louder than people ranting in front of a capital building somewhere.

--B

AlexBreya
12-22-2008, 12:33 AM
no such thing as a non violent way of solving problems with liberals. they never learn. the only logical way to do things, is to trap them. you know, those raccoon traps, and then mail them to Maine. it wouldn't be violent, and then there wouldn't be hippies that think the government is a government conspiracy. all we need is some weed and tree bark to get them into the trap.

CapS
12-22-2008, 1:00 AM
Patience, friends. This repression of gun owners' rights did not happen overnight. It took decades. We will not overturn it all at once in any spectacular way while the media and government are more interested in power than in rights. Our effectiveness will grow with our numbers and our determination.

Next step is Nordyke. A step at a time we can win this!

/Cap

nrakid88
12-22-2008, 1:01 AM
I will fight with dignified legale means until there is no longer any hope and then I will start shooting the bastards.


Hahaha, I think I might add this to my sig line.

Window_Seat
12-22-2008, 1:03 AM
I have to agree with the more "sensible" posts as far as waiting for the "wheels of justice" to turn.

It's not yet time for that version of public action. The better version is to wear a coat and tie and no firearm to the Nordyke hearing (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137800) and attend dinner afterwards (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137797).

There will be a time and place for more after a couple of these cases are complete.

-Gene

This is by far the most sensible, and that's why I'm going.

Erik; waiting and preparing

pneutin
12-22-2008, 1:12 AM
These Texas college students carried empty holsters to protest a ban on concealed weapons on college campuses. Result? The holsters were banned. So good luck with loaded open carry in California...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSUopq55xM8

Window_Seat
12-22-2008, 1:21 AM
These Texas college students carried empty holsters to protest a ban on concealed weapons on college campuses. Result? The holsters were banned. So good luck with loaded open carry in California...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSUopq55xM8

Who was it that said to the effect that "CA will have 1 or 2 choices after Nordyke, either legalize LOC or change May Issue to Shall Issue"?

Erik.

Glock22Fan
12-22-2008, 7:52 AM
:iagree:

Seriously, when was the last time you saw a group protest on TV and didn't think, "What the H311 is wrong with those effin' fruit-loops? Don't they realize they look ridiculous with their costumes and their signs and dumb-a** slogans they're shouting?" Nothing says wacko to me louder than people ranting in front of a capital building somewhere.

--B

Me too. I don't care what the protest is about, I always think "Mindless idiots!"

AaronHorrocks
12-22-2008, 10:13 AM
Nonviolence is for pussies.

Bruce
12-22-2008, 10:23 AM
"State Police Halt Armed Negro Band"

Wow

Hey it beats that other "N" word. Originates from the anthropological designation for the races, caucasianoid (white), Mongoloid (Asian), and Negroid (black). Just sounds close to the other "N" word so we've had this 40 year odyssey of names from colored to Negro to black to Afro-American to African-American.

Glock22Fan
12-22-2008, 10:46 AM
Hey it beats that other "N" word. Originates from the anthropological designation for the races, caucasianoid (white), Mongoloid (Asian), and Negroid (black). Just sounds close to the other "N" word so we've had this 40 year odyssey of names from colored to Negro to black to Afro-American to African-American.

And the succession of name changes is driven by the bigotry that immediately associates the new name with the old stereotype ("a rose by any other name smells as sweet" turned on its head).

The P.C. name changes won't stop until bigotry stops.

sfwdiy
12-22-2008, 11:35 AM
Who was it that said to the effect that "CA will have 1 or 2 choices after Nordyke, either legalize LOC or change May Issue to Shall Issue"?

This is what I'm holding out for. I don't see this state's legislature being particularly thrilled about either outcome but something tells me shall-issue will be the preferred option.

--B

Meplat
12-22-2008, 11:36 AM
Hahaha, I think I might add this to my sig line.

You have my blessing.;)

nooner
12-22-2008, 9:02 PM
Nonviolence is for pussies.Really? What method do you advocate? I can assume but prefer to have things spelled out for me.

Pointcrossed
12-22-2008, 10:17 PM
The best thing to do is to support the NRA, the CRPA "protest silently" and be an activist. The best type of activism is by getting involved in the community, neighborhood watch, whatever, help people from being vulnerable and victimized. I am not trying to sell MR T starter kits, Dark Knight manuals or tell anyone to go vigilante, just take a brave new bold approach. Get involved with LE, request and go on a ride along, make yourself known to your LEO's and that you care about your community and you want to make it safer for you your family and friends and the people. When this is accomplished and crimes where guns are used are reduced more anti gun people will take a stance in our favor because they will see more responsibility and truth and not the false claims the anti gun media displays.

CRQuarto
12-22-2008, 10:41 PM
Yeah, way to think this one through. You think that having anarchists infiltrate a standard protest can result in a bad situation? Try having that happen at this kind of protest....it will happen, and it will be bad. Do the smart thing and support Nordyke and other important cases, and make your voice be heard without putting everything that has been acomplished, not to mention human lives, at risk. It is a common thing for anarchists to deliberately infiltrate a peaceful protest and attempt to start trouble. The worst part is, they do it so well that the entire crowd is thought to be rioting.

oldrifle
12-22-2008, 10:52 PM
Me too. I don't care what the protest is about, I always think "Mindless idiots!"

I think that if you're protesting and you DON'T have guns or at least some torches and pitchforks, you are a total lamer. Armed revolt is the only way to go if you want to get any respect. :D

LibertyGuy
12-22-2008, 10:56 PM
Yeah, way to think this one through. You think that having anarchists infiltrate a standard protest can result in a bad situation? Try having that happen at this kind of protest....it will happen, and it will be bad. Do the smart thing and support Nordyke and other important cases, and make your voice be heard without putting everything that has been acomplished, not to mention human lives, at risk. It is a common thing for anarchists to deliberately infiltrate a peaceful protest and attempt to start trouble. The worst part is, they do it so well that the entire crowd is thought to be rioting.

They're not always anarchists. Sometimes they're agent provocateurs.

bellson
12-22-2008, 11:50 PM
I refuse to sacrifice my dignity and go out and act like some global warming, save the whales idiot. I will fight with dignified legale means until there is no longer any hope and then I will start shooting the bastards. I think that you will find that so many of our supporters are of like mind that you have no hope of rallying sufficient numbers to make your circus proposals work.

Right now I think our slow but sure legale progress within the system is doing just fine

There is no single method for achieving our goals. I think everything should be on the table. I shudder at the thought of going to Sacramento to take part in any protest. But at the same time, I would hate to miss it if it were in fact a success. How many of you were in college in the 60's and 70's? How did they get all of those kids out to protest? Simple social manipulation. That is a long subject......

We, as PRO 2A folks are a lot like Meplat. I mean no offense to Meplat!!!! But we are all a little above the public protest method. Most of us are Conservative, and detest the thought of telling anybody else how to live or what to think. We are secure in our lives, and we are secure in our belief that common sense and the rule of law will eventually prevail. I fervently hope that that will be the case.

Back to the Title; the problem is that we are not willing to gather in Public and make a stink. We are not willing to gather with our legally held firearms (unloaded in observance of the LAW) and shout down those who would remove the rest of our rights. We are or may be ashamed to have our picture on the front page of our town newspaper, carrying a rifle on our shoulders for all of our neighbors to see. But those are reasons why we are not taken seriously. Those are reasons why our rights are steadily eroded over time. Those are the reasons that the Leftists have taken control of of our State.

We are no longer the Golden State...We are now the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia.

Arnold tried. Politically; He died.

Think hard about it.

Bellson

CRQuarto
12-23-2008, 12:30 AM
They're not always anarchists. Sometimes they're agent provocateurs.

It was more of an example really, but I get what you are saying ;) I can imagine that anyone wanting to cause problems would see a peaceful protest by gun rights activists as a prime target.

Dark&Good
12-23-2008, 4:37 AM
Hm... there are quite a few things that people allowed to be done to this country. I understand the fears of the possible consequences, but they're probably justified only if just a few people stand up. Nobody can doubt/prosecute/make ridiculous/etc millions of people. We can always wait for one more legal case to end, and we can hope. But hope alone won't do a damn thing.

Window_Seat
12-23-2008, 4:47 AM
The loony left do not strategize silently. They do not know how to strategize silently, and they are losing. They lost big in D.C. with Heller.

Erik.

Mulay El Raisuli
12-23-2008, 4:59 AM
The loony left do not strategize silently. They do not know how to strategize silently, and they are losing. They lost big in D.C. with Heller.

Erik.


And this is the best counter-point to the whole idea. The Left is already losing. There are limits to my patience, but waiting for NORDYKE is a sensible thing to do.

The Raisuli

Meplat
12-23-2008, 10:59 AM
+100 There are so many ways to make something like this go very, very wrong. To start with, some police have developed, almost to a reflex reaction, the practice of considering a citizen with a gun a deadly threat to be immediately eliminated. Add a few hundred "armed" demonstrators, at least a few of whom will have ammo on them. Introduce just one agent provocateur willing to shoot down just one police officer from some nearby hiding place. You will have a tragedy that will make Kent State and the Boston massacre look like a day at the beach.

The resulting legislation will give Sara Brady wet dreams for years.:eek:



Yeah, way to think this one through. You think that having anarchists infiltrate a standard protest can result in a bad situation? Try having that happen at this kind of protest....it will happen, and it will be bad. Do the smart thing and support Nordyke and other important cases, and make your voice be heard without putting everything that has been acomplished, not to mention human lives, at risk. It is a common thing for anarchists to deliberately infiltrate a peaceful protest and attempt to start trouble. The worst part is, they do it so well that the entire crowd is thought to be rioting.

sorensen440
12-23-2008, 11:01 AM
+100 There are so many ways to make something like this go very, very wrong. To start with, some police have developed, almost to a reflex reaction, the practice of considering a citizen with a gun a deadly threat to be immediately eliminated. Add a few hundred "armed" demonstrators, at least a few of whom will have ammo on them. Introduce just one agent provocateur willing to shoot down just one police officer from some nearby hiding place. You will have a tragedy that will make Kent State and the Boston massacre look like a day at the beach.

The resulting legislation will give Sara Brady wet dreams for years.:eek:

That would be my biggest fear
all it will take is one loon in the mix to have it go very very badly

Meplat
12-23-2008, 11:29 AM
If I may presume to speak for Aaron, see post #24.:43:Really? What method do you advocate? I can assume but prefer to have things spelled out for me.

nicki
12-23-2008, 12:19 PM
1. We have to see what comes out of Nordyke first.

2. We need to see what legal resources we have first.

3. Everyone talks about the Black Panthers, but that was in 1967, a better example would be to look a few years back at the Ohio open carry marches which happened after the Ohio Supreme court ruled that Open carry was a constitutional right.

The end result of the Ohio public marches did a few things.

a. It educated the public they had a right to openly carry.
b. It informed the public that the Gov was stonewalling on a CCW bill
c. It educated LEO's
d. It established precendent in all counties since Open carriers were harassed for prior for causing a public panic.

After the marches, a CCW bill was passed. While Open carry is still a option in Ohio, most just get a CCW permit.

4. If we do Open Carry Marches correctly, not only are we exercising our second amendment rights, but since we are doing it as a "political statement", it is also exercise of our first amendment rights.

How things would play out here in California.

Many of you are "tunnel visioned" on the second amendment. The reality is open carry deals with more than just "gun rights".

We have 1st amendment issues, 2nd amendment issues and 14th amendment issues which will reach a much broader segment of the population.

1. We would of course inform the public we and they have a right to carry.

2. We have a CCW permit system, but since many sheriffs have created different classes of citizens and are making a mockery of equality under the law, we have no choice to open carry until sheriffs stop discriminatory ccw practices.

3. In cases where we can document that the only people who seem to have ccw permits are those who are politically connected, our march now becomes a march against political corruption.

5. Media relations are important, how we come off with the press is critical.

I would propose that any marches that are done fly under some banner other than the NRA.

Sorry guys, no camos, kill them all shirts.

Our spokespersons should be tailored to the region the marches are happening in.

6. I realize that there is a split on this forum regarding prop 8, but we can still learn from prop 8 opponents and see what they did and tailor what they are doing to our needs.

By the way, AG Jerry Brown will be arguing that you just can't lose a fundamental right to equality under the law by just a vote.

How many gun rights have we lost recently just by a slim majority vote.

7. If we suspect that we may run into legal issues with our marches, it is not right to expect a few marchers carry the weight of all gun owners.

We need to get the gun manufacturers to bankroll us. They are selling alot of guns nowadays so their profits are up, they can't cry poor.

They have a vested interest in our success.

Nicki



Weekends are usually slow news days.

AaronHorrocks
12-23-2008, 1:23 PM
Really? What method do you advocate? I can assume but prefer to have things spelled out for me.

Historically, I will quote some dead guy:
"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." Robert Heinlein

Currently, nonviolence is for hippies.
The Military, Police, and Government derive their power through force (violence).

Non-violence only worked for Gandhi when facing the extraordinarily civil and mannered British. We will never see the likes of that again. Non-violence didn't work against the Nazis, the SS, the communists, the pirates, the rioters, or the ATF.

N6ATF
12-23-2008, 3:21 PM
+100 There are so many ways to make something like this go very, very wrong. To start with, some police have developed, almost to a reflex reaction, the practice of considering a citizen with a gun a deadly threat to be immediately eliminated. Add a few hundred "armed" demonstrators, at least a few of whom will have ammo on them. Introduce just one agent provocateur willing to shoot down just one police officer from some nearby hiding place. You will have a tragedy that will make Kent State and the Boston massacre look like a day at the beach.

The resulting legislation will give Sara Brady wet dreams for years.:eek:

That's why none of the demonstrators can have ammo, and all will be wearing straightjackets. So the police will know the demonstrators could not have possibly shot at them.

CapS
12-24-2008, 5:26 PM
Currently, nonviolence is for hippies.
The Military, Police, and Government derive their power through force (violence).

Non-violence only worked for Gandhi when facing the extraordinarily civil and mannered British.

Yes and no. Gandhi once said, "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

Tyrants always prefer helpless subjects.

/Cap

Dark&Good
12-24-2008, 6:02 PM
Tyrants always prefer helpless subjects.

That's a nice line for a signature...

CapS
12-24-2008, 7:58 PM
Thanks D&G.
I want to be clear that the kind of protest I wrote against earlier was armed protest. That is just asking for trouble.

/Cap

Dark&Good
12-25-2008, 1:50 AM
I do believe in non-violent protests, armed or not, IF at least 250,000 people are there.