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CAL.BAR
12-20-2008, 10:37 AM
Yes - at the On Target in Laguna Niguel. I've been shooting there for years with registered AW's and my new OLL's. However today, after the usual pistol tournament, I was sighting in the aimpoint on my Vector .40 (MP5 clone) when one of the kind "lawyers" on staff there made an effort to come running out from behind the desk to ask me "is that registered". I said, no, it's not an AW"
He says "it looks like it is to me" I showed him where Chris at Lanworld (thank very much) sheered off the mag release paddle on the bottom so that you need a screwdriver to pry the mag out. THen showed him the pinned 10/30's.

He says "we don't mind what you shoot here, but I'm telling you it's a felony. . .it's your life man."

On my way out I gave our "lawyer" friend a CG flowchart and said he could refer to it if he had any questions. He said "oh, I don't have ANY questions, but thank you."

SO. . . how often do people render unsolicited medical advice if they are not doctors? How many times have you been stopped by folks randomly giving engineering advice when they are counter clerks? However, complicated legal advice from a counter clerk (a mis-informed counter clerk) is ok?

Don't get me wrong, I love On Target. The owner there is a great proponent of CCW and shooter's rights, but allowing his "lawyers" to give out unsolicited and inaccurate legal advice is troubling.

383green
12-20-2008, 11:15 AM
how often do people render unsolicited medical advice if they are not doctors?

Have you ever heard of Homeopathy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy)? That snake-oil quackery is commonly sold over the counter at any drug store or supermarket, amazingly enough.

How many times have you been stopped by folks randomly giving engineering advice when they are counter clerks?

This happens all the time at places like Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc. Given that I am an actual electrical engineer, it really boggles my mind when they spout absurd BS and then actually argue with me over it! :rolleyes:

Anyway, good job on standing your ground and trying to educate the counter-lawyer. It may not have worked, but the best that you can do is to try!

NiteQwill
12-20-2008, 11:37 AM
Reason #9087872 I do not like On-target. Their staff is rude, incompetent, and clueless.

They KNOW people shoot OLLs on their range. Hell, they require you to PAY for a permit to shoot a rifle there. Now, the lawyer-clerk gives you BS about your rifle.

ugh.

Another reason to stay away.

I make the extra effort to drive 25 minutes south and shoot at Iron Sights, they probably have the most friendliest staff at a range I have EVER done business with. Not to mention, their staff doesn't spread FUD, if they can't answer your question they find someone who can instead of beating around the bush.

timdps
12-20-2008, 11:39 AM
Don't get me wrong, I love On Target. The owner there is a great proponent of CCW and shooter's rights, but allowing his "lawyers" to give out unsolicited and inaccurate legal advice is troubling.

You might want to mention this to the owner in an attempt to cut down on the FUD.

tim

BroncoBob
12-20-2008, 11:40 AM
Good job on standing your ground and not backing down. Sooner or later the FUD crap will go away from the uneducated and "staff lawyers"

EOD3
12-20-2008, 12:40 PM
It's not what he doesn't know that bothers me, it's what he thinks he knows and is dead wrong about that concerns me.

Or words to that effect.

sorensen440
12-20-2008, 12:52 PM
It drives me nutz when people are wrong and are unwilling to even consider for a second that they are
you should have left the flowchart with him anyways... :(

CAL.BAR
12-20-2008, 1:08 PM
It drives me nutz when people are wrong and are unwilling to even consider for a second that they are
you should have left the flowchart with him anyways... :(

I definately left the flowchart with him (I carry extras for cases such as this) and I will speak with the owner when I get a chance. They also charged me to shoot in the tournament ($15.00) then charged me ANOTHER $15.00 to stay a few extra minutes to sight the carbine - never had that happen before either.

Bad Voodoo
12-20-2008, 1:13 PM
He said "oh, I don't have ANY questions, but thank you."

Well of course he doesn't. Being a "range attorney" and all, he has ALL the answers and you're just the sugar daddy paying for the privilege of utilizing his facility. You silly citizen, you.

tombinghamthegreat
12-20-2008, 2:30 PM
Good job standing your ground. From my experence the people spreading FUD is the other people at the range claiming its illegal BS. A quick reminder of the flowchart or tell them that the store is selling the same gun shuts them up.

postal16
12-20-2008, 3:16 PM
Not to defend them, but when I was in OC the previous owner's son was arrested for selling illegal (not OLL) AWs from the back door of that facility...so I know they are paraniod. I was also there about 4 years ago when a gentleman was shooting a AR15 carbine, and as he was checking out a DOJ agent who was there doing a inspection of the owners asked him for his regestration paperwork, and he stated he did not have it and I saw the agent cuff and take him away. Never heard what happened to him.

So this is where their FUD comes from. If you go back ask for Greg, he is the owner, and I am sure he will appreciate the info.

I must day I do enjoy shooting a Sac Valley now, where the ROs are all well versed on the OLL legality and don't hassel us :-) Also where it is only $100/yr (no app fee) to join vs. the $300/yr On-target was for a 25-yard range vs the several 100 yd + ranges at Sac Valley (including the 1,000 yard with target pits)

hawk1
12-20-2008, 5:52 PM
Not to defend them, but when I was in OC the previous owner's son was arrested for selling illegal (not OLL) AWs from the back door of that facility...so I know they are paraniod. I was also there about 4 years ago when a gentleman was shooting a AR15 carbine, and as he was checking out a DOJ agent who was there doing a inspection of the owners asked him for his regestration paperwork, and he stated he did not have it and I saw the agent cuff and take him away. Never heard what happened to him.

So this is where their FUD comes from. If you go back ask for Greg, he is the owner, and I am sure he will appreciate the info.

I must day I do enjoy shooting a Sac Valley now, where the ROs are all well versed on the OLL legality and don't hassel us :-) Also where it is only $100/yr (no app fee) to join vs. the $300/yr On-target was for a 25-yard range vs the several 100 yd + ranges at Sac Valley (including the 1,000 yard with target pits)


At what point did they give 'DOJ inspection agents' the right to cuff and detain? Or in your words 'take him away'? :confused:

M. Sage
12-20-2008, 6:38 PM
Pretty sure the DOJ auditors are LEOs.

cadurand
12-20-2008, 6:57 PM
The bottom line is, people should mind their own business.

If a paying customer is shooting at your range, and doing things safely, let him be. If you suspect his weapon is configured in some illegal manner that's for the cops to worry about.

I can't stand it when people want to tattle on each other. How about we all just get along and live our lives?

Titans
12-20-2008, 7:08 PM
Not to defend them, but when I was in OC the previous owner's son was arrested for selling illegal (not OLL) AWs from the back door of that facility...so I know they are paraniod.

Actually I know the guy you speak of and from what he says after the AW ban they had to register there AW's and he had left this task to one of his trusted employees who "missed" 3-4 rifles in the back. When they came in to do the inspection they discovered the unregistered rifles and charged him. He spent a year in jail and lost his licensing to continue the business.

Timberwolf
12-20-2008, 7:10 PM
If a paying customer is shooting at your range, and doing things safely, let him be. If you suspect his weapon is configured in some illegal manner that's for the cops to worry about.



Doesn't quite work that way.

bohoki
12-20-2008, 7:24 PM
next time someone not in law enforcement asks if it is registered say "sure"

_Odin_
12-20-2008, 7:32 PM
Yes - at the On Target in Laguna Niguel. I've been shooting there for years with registered AW's and my new OLL's. However today, after the usual pistol tournament, I was sighting in the aimpoint on my Vector .40 (MP5 clone) when one of the kind "lawyers" on staff there made an effort to come running out from behind the desk to ask me "is that registered". I said, no, it's not an AW"
He says "it looks like it is to me" I showed him where Chris at Lanworld (thank very much) sheered off the mag release paddle on the bottom so that you need a screwdriver to pry the mag out. THen showed him the pinned 10/30's.

He says "we don't mind what you shoot here, but I'm telling you it's a felony. . .it's your life man."

On my way out I gave our "lawyer" friend a CG flowchart and said he could refer to it if he had any questions. He said "oh, I don't have ANY questions, but thank you."


Yup. I had a similar thing happen to me at the Circle S Ranch up in Petaluma (Nor. Cal): one of the volunteer RSO's told me that "everytime you drop the mag on the AR it's a felony" I told him about the bullet button - but he had none of it. Insisted that dropping the mag constitutes a "felony".

Amazingly though, he proceeded to tell me that it's ok to shoot there and drop the mags - but it's a felony and someone else might say something (?). It sounds you were told the same in your situation.

I don't get how they can believe it's a felony - yet allow it to continue taking place.... I mean, if it was illegal and the range is aware of it, yet allows it to happen, doesn't that implicate them in the crime? I don't really understand the logic on their end.

Timberwolf
12-20-2008, 7:37 PM
next time someone not in law enforcement asks if it is registered say "sure"

Why not just be honest and explain the configuration. My normal question when I walk the line and see mags out of AR type weapons is if its pre-ban .(I don't ask if the person has paperwork - thats between them and an LEO) On a few occassions people have told me yes only to turn around at some later time and use a bullet to drop the mag which normally invokes me to pay the person alot more attention than the person normally likes.

DDT
12-20-2008, 9:28 PM
Why not just be honest and explain the configuration. My normal question when I walk the line and see mags out of AR type weapons is if its pre-ban .(I don't ask if the person has paperwork - thats between them and an LEO) On a few occassions people have told me yes only to turn around at some later time and use a bullet to drop the mag which normally invokes me to pay the person alot more attention than the person normally likes.

Why pay any more attention to the person? Is it illegal to install a BB in a pre-ban, registered AW?

NRAhighpowershooter
12-20-2008, 9:33 PM
Why pay any more attention to the person? Is it illegal to install a BB in a pre-ban, registered AW?

no it's not illegal.. but if it is a registered AW why bother with a BB at all anyway?? :confused:

dchang0
12-20-2008, 10:44 PM
I can't stand it when people want to tattle on each other. How about we all just get along and live our lives?

Amen to that! We should be on the lookout for an increase in tattling, because it seems that citizens informing the government on each other is a sure sign of an impending totalitarian state. Must be a requirement of power-hungry governments to sow suspicion and division within the citizenry.

jmlivingston
12-21-2008, 6:11 AM
He spent a year in jail and lost his licensing to continue the business.

Are you talking about the Russian guy who used to run the place? He didn't own On-Target, his mom did (according to an OC Register article about it, when this bust happened).

DDT
12-21-2008, 7:39 AM
no it's not illegal.. but if it is a registered AW why bother with a BB at all anyway?? :confused:

Any old reason he might have. Why build a $3000 tacticool AR just to sit in your safe and go on the range shooting paper? Maybe he saw everyone else on the range with ARs using the BB and decided it was something he just had to have.

postal16
12-21-2008, 1:18 PM
Actually I know the guy you speak of and from what he says after the AW ban they had to register there AW's and he had left this task to one of his trusted employees who "missed" 3-4 rifles in the back. When they came in to do the inspection they discovered the unregistered rifles and charged him. He spent a year in jail and lost his licensing to continue the business.

Thanks for the rest of the story, I was going off of what I heard in the ever truth telling OC Register:clown: I jsut remeber those guys there were jumpy as hell about things, and the guys behind the counter would bring that incident up.

I am glad that while they were arresting, prosectuting and incarcerating your friend the whole time ruining his buisness and livelihood (not to mention ability to pay and collect (DROS) taxes for the state) that there were no really bad guys out there (Santa Ana?) that needed to be arrested, prosecuted and incarcerated. Makes you scratch you head:no:

Cpl_Peters
12-22-2008, 4:57 AM
The bottom line is, people should mind their own business.

If a paying customer is shooting at your range, and doing things safely, let him be. If you suspect his weapon is configured in some illegal manner that's for the cops to worry about.

I can't stand it when people want to tattle on each other. How about we all just get along and live our lives?


i think that is the exact opposite of what you would want. i would rather have someone talk to me about the legality of my rifle than have the cops come and sort it out. especially when we all know that many LEOs dont understand the retarded AW laws anyway.

remember LEO's can arrest with probable cause...people forget that. an LEO arresting you doesnt mean you will get convicted but it does mean you will go to jail until you post bail or are arraigned. but if an officer/ deputy comes and checks a rifle that looks similar to something on the banned list he already has reasonable suspicion to believe a crime is being committed and can thus detain and inspect.

case in point would be an officer on patrol sees a guy push another guy then run off. this could simply be two friends horsing around but the officer has the authority to detain and investigate. like wise if an officer sees someone unloading large bags filled with white powder from his truck into another truck, he may believe that there is a large scale drug transaction in progress. if after the detention he determines that the substance was just sugar, and the driver is simply delivering it to another shipper for transport to a bakery, then thats the end of it.

if after they inspect, they determine that your weapon may be in violation of the law, then that is PC enough for an arrest. After that, his job is done, the court take care of the rest. if it goes to trial, the officer will testify to why he believed your weapon was in violation. if the judge thinks thinks the officer was correct, trial proceeds and its up to a jury of your peers to decide.

we all know the law is vague and left to different interpretation. if you dont believe me just look at the myriad of threads in this forum alone regarding what continsttutes an AW (keeping in mind everyone in here is RKBA). the fact that people are getting arrested for OLLs shows that there is enough PC out there to arrest someone on this...conviction is a different story. everytime someone gets arrested for an OLL then the charges get dropped it is not a victory. it doesnt prove anything. officers and local agencies are concerned about convictions for the most part, DAs are. Officers and Agencies are concerned about arrests. And if there is probable cause to arrest, you will be spending the night in county.

that is the reason that i jumped off the OLL bandwagon over a year ago. the line is too grey....i know everyone in here thinks its set in stone but it is not. There has not been one definitive ruling to suggest that our interpretation of the OLL laws is the correct one. People can play word games all they want with the laws but it is all in the context of how they are read.


so i guess my point is, i would rather have someone at the desk tell me they think i might be in violation of the law then to have them calls the cops and let them decide.

and for all the OLL crowd out there, i wish you the best of luck. just remember you are rolling the dice everytime you go to shoot your neutered rifle/carbine. Most of the time the odds are in your favor, but there is always the chance that you will find yourself in a situation that gives an LEO reasonable suspicion (enough to detain you and investigate) which may culminate in enough probable cause to arrest you so you can have your day in court. and all the internet print outs and citing of obscure case laws from 20 years ago won't save you when its time to get in the black and white taxi.

Ballistic043
12-22-2008, 5:13 AM
if the guy came up to you, didnt call the cops, and starts mouthing off on the law with no real bearing, he probably does not know what he is talking about. if he truly thought a crime was being committed, i highly doubt he would continue to let you shoot there without notifying the police. especially since police use the range regularly and dont want to see on target transformed into burro canyon on the weekends..

the employees reactions clearly indicate lack of experience in the matter. but it does not invalidate his right to be concerned.

btw monte; you need to think of that in the opposite sense. there has been no ruling EITHER WAY on bullet buttons. that means alot more than having the DOJ come out and say its illegal. thats called an underground regulation and they can't do it anymore.

Sawdust
12-22-2008, 7:00 AM
and for all the OLL crowd out there, i wish you the best of luck. just remember you are rolling the dice everytime you go to shoot your neutered rifle/carbine. Most of the time the odds are in your favor, but there is always the chance that you will find yourself in a situation that gives an LEO reasonable suspicion (enough to detain you and investigate) which may culminate in enough probable cause to arrest you so you can have your day in court. and all the internet print outs and citing of obscure case laws from 20 years ago won't save you when its time to get in the black and white taxi.


Yawn. Not this crap again.

AFAIC, they can go right ahead and throw me in "the black and white taxi" and book me for whatever they think that I am doing illegal - I know that I am not breaking the law.

I will be calm and quiet whilst the misinformed LEO(s) do their thang. I will then bail myself out.

Then my gloves come off.

I think that it was Ben who once said something like the following, to which I also subscribe:

I have *a lot* of disposable income, I hold a grudge and I have *no* sense of proportion.

As always...molon labe.

Sawdust

The Director
12-22-2008, 7:56 AM
Cpl Peters - didn't you see the Sac PD memo?

DDT
12-22-2008, 8:11 AM
i think that is the exact opposite of what you would want. i would rather have someone talk to me about the legality of my rifle than have the cops come and sort it out. especially when we all know that many LEOs dont understand the retarded AW laws anyway.

So, if a LEO thought it was illegal for you to post here because it discusses issues that may be illegal and therefore your participation here would constitute conspiracy to commit said acts you would stop posting here? That seems like a great way to get people to give up their lawful activities, just have a cop tell them they think it is illegal or might be. As for someone talking to their customers about OLL weapons I have no issue if the RO asks if the person is familiar with their weapon and the laws regulating it. If the person with the gun says yes then the RO can either choose to not provide services to that individual as should be the right of any business owner. It ain't that hard.


and for all the OLL crowd out there, i wish you the best of luck. just remember you are rolling the dice everytime you go to shoot your neutered rifle/carbine. Most of the time the odds are in your favor, but there is always the chance that you will find yourself in a situation that gives an LEO reasonable suspicion (enough to detain you and investigate) which may culminate in enough probable cause to arrest you so you can have your day in court. and all the internet print outs and citing of obscure case laws from 20 years ago won't save you when its time to get in the black and white taxi.

Are you serious? This makes absolutely zero sense. I suppose that you think that black folk ought to just stay out of the nice neighborhoods since that may constitute reasonable suspicion to detain and investigate? Or maybe young folk ought to stay inside at night since anyone under 25 out at night can't be up to any good and the police might use that a reasonable suspicion? Or, perhaps no one under 30 ought to go to a bar or restaurant and order a drink because a police officer might think they look under 21 and might detain and investigate them? Jeesh, you are seriously asking folks to just give up their rights because someone else might not understand them?

gunsmithcats
12-22-2008, 8:35 AM
cpl peters, u active duty?

Dude, u know you have the ability to get a military assault weapons permit?

Just letting you know man, if your that paranoid about it, which u shouldnt be.

_Odin_
12-22-2008, 8:37 AM
i think that is the exact opposite of what you would want. i would rather have someone talk to me about the legality of my rifle than have the cops come and sort it out. especially when we all know that many LEOs dont understand the retarded AW laws anyway.

remember LEO's can arrest with probable cause...people forget that. an LEO arresting you doesnt mean you will get convicted but it does mean you will go to jail until you post bail or are arraigned. but if an officer/ deputy comes and checks a rifle that looks similar to something on the banned list he already has reasonable suspicion to believe a crime is being committed and can thus detain and inspect.

case in point would be an officer on patrol sees a guy push another guy then run off. this could simply be two friends horsing around but the officer has the authority to detain and investigate. like wise if an officer sees someone unloading large bags filled with white powder from his truck into another truck, he may believe that there is a large scale drug transaction in progress. if after the detention he determines that the substance was just sugar, and the driver is simply delivering it to another shipper for transport to a bakery, then thats the end of it.

if after they inspect, they determine that your weapon may be in violation of the law, then that is PC enough for an arrest. After that, his job is done, the court take care of the rest. if it goes to trial, the officer will testify to why he believed your weapon was in violation. if the judge thinks thinks the officer was correct, trial proceeds and its up to a jury of your peers to decide.

we all know the law is vague and left to different interpretation. if you dont believe me just look at the myriad of threads in this forum alone regarding what continsttutes an AW (keeping in mind everyone in here is RKBA). the fact that people are getting arrested for OLLs shows that there is enough PC out there to arrest someone on this...conviction is a different story. everytime someone gets arrested for an OLL then the charges get dropped it is not a victory. it doesnt prove anything. officers and local agencies are concerned about convictions for the most part, DAs are. Officers and Agencies are concerned about arrests. And if there is probable cause to arrest, you will be spending the night in county.

that is the reason that i jumped off the OLL bandwagon over a year ago. the line is too grey....i know everyone in here thinks its set in stone but it is not. There has not been one definitive ruling to suggest that our interpretation of the OLL laws is the correct one. People can play word games all they want with the laws but it is all in the context of how they are read.


so i guess my point is, i would rather have someone at the desk tell me they think i might be in violation of the law then to have them calls the cops and let them decide.

and for all the OLL crowd out there, i wish you the best of luck. just remember you are rolling the dice everytime you go to shoot your neutered rifle/carbine. Most of the time the odds are in your favor, but there is always the chance that you will find yourself in a situation that gives an LEO reasonable suspicion (enough to detain you and investigate) which may culminate in enough probable cause to arrest you so you can have your day in court. and all the internet print outs and citing of obscure case laws from 20 years ago won't save you when its time to get in the black and white taxi.

+1
Very well said.

Cpl Peters - didn't you see the Sac PD memo?

The memo is a big help, but you can still have a confused LEO. I'm sure if I was accosted by cops in my area and I showed them the memo they'd still have questions regarding the legality of "dropping mags" etc.

Yawn. Not this crap again.

AFAIC, they can go right ahead and throw me in "the black and white taxi" and book me for whatever they think that I am doing illegal - I know that I am not breaking the law.

I will be calm and quiet whilst the misinformed LEO(s) do their thang. I will then bail myself out.

Then my gloves come off.

I think that it was Ben who once said something like the following, to which I also subscribe:

I have *a lot* of disposable income, I hold a grudge and I have *no* sense of proportion.

As always...molon labe.


You're lucky you have that kind of money - I would guess most folks on here aren't as well off however. An AW charge alone is gonna run you upwards of $10,000... if it goes to trial, than you're talkin $40-50,0000+. Plus bail, which could be another $5,000 to $10,000. Plus the amount of $ lost from missing work. Plus the incredable amount of time wasted. Plus having your guns taken and not being able to enjoy them for months...

Yea, there's next to no chance they'd get a conviction on you - but it's still a huge cost time/money/stress-wise.

Cpl_Peters
12-23-2008, 1:13 AM
So, if a LEO thought it was illegal for you to post here because it discusses issues that may be illegal and therefore your participation here would constitute conspiracy to commit said acts you would stop posting here? That seems like a great way to get people to give up their lawful activities, just have a cop tell them they think it is illegal or might be. As for someone talking to their customers about OLL weapons I have no issue if the RO asks if the person is familiar with their weapon and the laws regulating it. If the person with the gun says yes then the RO can either choose to not provide services to that individual as should be the right of any business owner. It ain't that hard.



Are you serious? This makes absolutely zero sense. I suppose that you think that black folk ought to just stay out of the nice neighborhoods since that may constitute reasonable suspicion to detain and investigate? Or maybe young folk ought to stay inside at night since anyone under 25 out at night can't be up to any good and the police might use that a reasonable suspicion? Or, perhaps no one under 30 ought to go to a bar or restaurant and order a drink because a police officer might think they look under 21 and might detain and investigate them? Jeesh, you are seriously asking folks to just give up their rights because someone else might not understand them?

i think you are taking what i am saying out of context. an leo cannot detain someone because of race and just where they happen to be. thats racial profiling. the exception to that would be if an leo saw a certain some one of a particular race that matched the description of a suspect of a string of crimes in that particular area...thats called criminal profiling.

i guess i got a little off topic with my original post, my main point was being i would rather have some one other than the police questioning me about my OLL. but the second point i was trying to explain was a valid one. becareful with your OLLs and where you are going with them. there is a saying that goes something like the following: "You may beat the wrap, but you wont beat the ride." in a nutshell what that means is that, sure your OLL case will most likley be dropped, you might not face criminal prosecution, and you might not spend more than a few hours in jail. but you wont get those hours back, you wont get your money back if you went through a bondsmen and you wont get the time and effort back that you spent dealing with the court process. if you dont mind that +1 to you, i myself dont want to deal with the hassel so my OLL stays locked up unless im going out of state for the most part. remember even the some of the most evil crooks get away free and clear for crimes they actually did commit. I am not implying OLL ownership is a crime, but i myself am waiting for some more serious court precedence and LEO education before i am willing to take the chances.

When i first heard about OLLs i thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. i went an told all my friends, explained all the intricacies of the law to them and in a few months we all had them. one of my friends was subsequently arrested stemming from a lawful detention, investigation and probable cause. nothing ever came of the charges but he is a few bucks shorter than he was before and missing some guns. he has since built up new OLLs and continues to shoot them...more power to him. however that instance was an eye opener to me and i became less excited about the whole thing. i developed the mindset that i can be perfectly satisfied shooting my M1As and sig pistols then testing fate everytime i go to the range.


i would like to see more court decisions and legal action taking on the subject of PRKs blatant disregard for the 2A, but ones that dont involve people getting arrested and them having to waste there time and money proving their innocence.

we all know PRKs intent when they wrote the laws was to rid the state of black rifles, they failed because they did not articulate the parameters of what they wanted to constitute an AW. we have been exploiting their failure for years now and it wont be long until additional legislation is introduced to correct their mistake. i think our main effort should be focused on preventing that and eventually reversing the unconstitutional existing laws.

i can see by the amount of replies stemming from my post, my personal opinion on the matter has pissed people off. for that i apologize, i never meant to pee in anyones coolaide. It was mearly to inform people if range employees (people on the same side as us) have their doubts about the legality of your rifle, then maybe its best not to let the "cops"


gunsmithcats-

i am no longer on active duty (not until june at least).

tombinghamthegreat
12-23-2008, 11:35 AM
and for all the OLL crowd out there, i wish you the best of luck. just remember you are rolling the dice everytime you go to shoot your neutered rifle/carbine.

FUD. I am going to exerise my rights regardless of empty threats from the PD. I am perfectly fine firing my Saiga with a detachable mag.

_Odin_
12-23-2008, 12:35 PM
FUD. I am going to exerise my rights regardless of empty threats from the PD. I am perfectly fine firing my Saiga with a detachable mag.

Cpl_Peters:

I wouldn't waste your time cautioning folks here about the risks/hassles associated with OLLs. I tried this in another thread and got about a page worth of insults/personal attacks; I stepped up and said a few words in my own defense and got slapped w/ a 48 hour ban... no one else got banned - that's gotta tell ya something right there regarding the forum's stance on the issue.

They're legal; therefore theres no risk of being falsely arrested or charged. That's what folks want to think so just leave it at that. =/

artherd
12-23-2008, 12:54 PM
They're legal; therefore theres no risk of being falsely arrested or charged. That's what folks want to think so just leave it at that. =/

There is risk of being falsely arrested or charged for every kind of legal conduct.

Been there, done that, have the t-shirt and napkins I made to wipe our hands with the non-proc!

http://www.hoffmang.com/albums/firearms/IMG_0235.sized.jpg

GMONEY
12-23-2008, 1:09 PM
To the grey area guys... Why doesn't the ATF, DOJ, etc just shut down the shops that sell them, the gun shows that sell them, etc, etc... You see the grey area Medical Marijuana guys get busted all the time...

What's that I hear? Silence???

ENOUGH SAID!!!

BONECUTTER
12-23-2008, 1:23 PM
There is risk of being falsely arrested or charged for every kind of legal conduct.

Agreed....I had a LEO give me a hard time about my Remmy 700 bolt gun.

It was in a AICS....thumb hold stock....pistol grip...folding stock....detachable mag....oh my. To this day I still have some guys with OLL come up to me and tell me it needs a bullet button. :rolleyes:

Thankfully every LEO I have ever encountered I have passed the "attitude" test. Even when the officer still felt I was in the wrong I was given a "I wouldn't keep that" and sent on my way.

Everything has risk. The more people who do it the more the risk drops.

_Odin_
12-23-2008, 1:29 PM
To the grey area guys... Why doesn't the ATF, DOJ, etc just shut down the shops that sell them, the gun shows that sell them, etc, etc... You see the grey area Medical Marijuana guys get busted all the time...

What's that I hear? Silence???

ENOUGH SAID!!!

I didn't see one post in this thread which said OLLs were illegal or "grey area" - the argument was w/ respect to being falsely hassled/arrested.

GMONEY
12-23-2008, 1:53 PM
that is the reason that i jumped off the OLL bandwagon over a year ago. the line is too grey....i know everyone in here thinks its set in stone but it is not. There has not been one definitive ruling to suggest that our interpretation of the OLL laws is the correct one. People can play word games all they want with the laws but it is all in the context of how they are read.



Is that good enough for ya?

Arkalius
12-23-2008, 1:55 PM
I didn't see one post in this thread which said OLLs were illegal or "grey area" - the argument was w/ respect to being falsely hassled/arrested.

we all know the law is vague and left to different interpretation.

the line is too grey....


There you go.

The law is not vague, and it is not a gray area. It is very clear. Any person of reasonable intelligence who reads and understands the law should easily be able to tell whether a particular firearm, upon close inspection, is legally considered an assault weapon or not.

If an LEO sees an individual firing an AR15 or AK47 style firearm, he has good cause to approach and question the shooter about his weapon. However, it is a well known fact that ignorance of the law is no defence against breaking it. Why should ignorance of the law be a defense against false arrest?

The law is clear, if a bit complex. The flowchart is straightforward, but it does have a lot of elements in it. There isn't any part of the flowchart that leads to an ambiguous conclusion. Any person of reasonable intelligence who possesses a basic understanding of firearms can follow that flowchart and positively determine if a particular firearm is illegal or not. There is no ambiguity or room for interpretation.

Yes, we are pushing the limits of the law with our OLL builds, but that need not have a negative connotation. We do not do it with malicious or mischevous intent, we just wish to enjoy and exercise our rights without violating the laws, despite the ire we may hold for them.

Unfortunately at this point ignorance of the law (at least in this case) is an adequate defense for LEO's to make false arrests. In this case, not knowing the details of the law creates a false probable cause for arrest. Cpl Peters is right about one thing. We are taking a risk whenever we bring our legal OLL builds out in public of being harrassed by law enforcement, and even possibly arrested. And Peters, if you do not wish to take that risk yourself, that is your choice, and I and others here can respect that. And while informing us of the potential risks in an objective way is not a bad thing, your post was very FUD-like, even if you didn't intend it to be that way.

If we all buy and build our OLL setups and then just lock them up in our safes and closets never using them, then this ignorance of the law on the part of law enforcement will persist. Taking our guns out and using them is the best way to educate the public, and every false arrest for this activity will make the next one just that much more untolerable, until it gets to the point where the cops will hopefully start getting reprimanded for falsely arrseting law abiding citizens.

Timberwolf
12-23-2008, 2:09 PM
The law is not vague, and it is not a gray area.

Can you please cite me one case, just one case where the whole issue regarding the legality of the bullet button has been addressed and defined as right or wrong. If not then your statement is nothing more than wishful thinking.

GMONEY
12-23-2008, 2:16 PM
Can you please cite me one case, just one case where the whole issue regarding the legality of the bullet button has been addressed and defined as right or wrong. If not then your statement is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Cite us a case where it's wrong... EXACTLY!!!

Ballistic043
12-23-2008, 2:22 PM
he said right or wrong !

hair splitter :P

Arkalius
12-23-2008, 2:27 PM
Can you please cite me one case, just one case where the whole issue regarding the legality of the bullet button has been addressed and defined as right or wrong. If not then your statement is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Well, read the Sacramento PD memo (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf) that Gene has on his site for one...

Are you trying to say that nothing is proven legal until a court of law vets it?

Read the law. Everything we are doing complies with the text of the law. Therefore it is legal. And, Despite all of the stories of arrests that we've seen, there exists no verifiable story of any convictions being laid down upon people who are following the law. That seems like pretty good evidence to me-- not that it should be required when the law is clear.

The law plainly says that a magazine that requires a tool to remove is not "detachable" by legal definition, and it also plainly says that a bullet is considered a tool for this puprose. That pretty much seals the deal on the legality of the use of a bullet button.

Timberwolf
12-23-2008, 2:33 PM
Cite us a case where it's wrong... EXACTLY!!!

Thats just it folks - there has been no published cases addressing the issue yet - its virgin law which can go either way. Up until there has been a published opinion it will remain grey area and all the "the law is clear" statements in the world won't change that fact.

GMONEY
12-23-2008, 2:35 PM
Thats just it folks - there has been no published cases addressing the issue yet - its virgin law which can go either way. Up until there has been a published opinion it will remain grey area and all the "the law is clear" statements in the world won't change that fact.

It is CLEAR that the OTHER SIDE has had numerous chances to pursue this and yet they don't... It is obvious they know they can't win...

tombinghamthegreat
12-23-2008, 2:44 PM
There is risk of being falsely arrested or charged for every kind of legal conduct.

Very true, that is why the 5th amendment exists. I am sure the PD might try to arrest me for always carrying my carry knife everywhere but then again its legal and i will continue to do so regardless of what some ill informed cop might think, same policy goes for my guns. :D

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/sealofawesomeness/saiga4.jpg

_Odin_
12-23-2008, 2:59 PM
Is that good enough for ya?

Well, I'll let Peters speak for himself, but I took his post to mean "grey" with respect to the LEO/DA's prespective on the law; I don't think he'd state "OLLs might be illegal" yet in the same post admit to owning one.

Librarian
12-23-2008, 3:28 PM
Thats just it folks - there has been no published cases addressing the issue yet - its virgin law which can go either way. Up until there has been a published opinion it will remain grey area and all the "the law is clear" statements in the world won't change that fact.

If that were the case, why would anyone ever obey a law before there were court cases?

The 'black letter law' is exactly what it seems to be, filtered through appropriate legal training.

Case law can, and sometimes does, change the application of 'black letter law' - but the law can be enforced before there is ever any case law.

Someone who wants to be very cautious should certainly act in what seems to him/her his/her own best interests.

GMONEY
12-23-2008, 5:36 PM
Wait a minute...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=139100

Hmmm... Why did they not try and go after the OLL? This looks like a HUGE and clear victory for us!

Thanks Calguns!

grammaton76
12-24-2008, 12:28 AM
Course, one time at ASR I had one of the line officers come up and tell me that I was using tracer rounds

Let me guess, you had red polymer tip rounds?

I was asked once at Iron Sights by one of the instructors to confirm that the red-tipped 223 ounds a guy had were tracers. He was real surprised that they were Hornady polymer tips... apparently he'd never seen them before.

NiteQwill
12-24-2008, 12:36 AM
I didn't see one post in this thread which said OLLs were illegal or "grey area" - the argument was w/ respect to being falsely hassled/arrested.

Cpl_Peters and Timberwolf mentioned it, reread the thread...

The topic gets old after awhile BUT I'm always glad it comes up. Why? Because it reinforces the legality of building and shooting such rifles (in a properly configured manner, of course). There is no "grey" area.

Sniper3142
12-24-2008, 8:52 AM
I was just at that On Target range a couple of hours before the OP started this thread.

I've never been harrassed when I brought my RAW's there but I usually just shoot my pistols.

I plan on going there THIS SATURDAY, December 27th somewhere between the hours of 13:00 and 15:00 with one of my Registered Assault Weapons. Heck, maybe a couple of them!

;)

Just to try and educate the masses.

I'll have a few High Capacity Magazines with me also.

:)

I know it isn't even close to the same thing as an OLL but...

ontargetrange
12-24-2008, 9:54 AM
As the owner of On-Target I don’t often get involved with online discussions, since I am often accused of a strong bias in one direction or another, but in this case I feel I need to wade in. I also need to bring this back to the beginning and address Mr. djandj first.

When I purchased the business three years ago it was after much, and I mean much, consideration about its reputation and the problems it had been going through. The previous owner was not the most honest person at times and went to jail for his mistakes. Those issues led to the DOJ and ATF putting this business on their “A” list of places to watch.

With that in mind I felt the issues could be overcome with time and hard work. For the most part that has been true and has happened. Business has improved, local relationships with the City have never been better, the number of new shooters coming in constantly increases, and the number of members has grown. We have made a number of physical improvements and have more in the plans.

What has happened and continues to happen is the DOJ and ATF stings we have played on us. I spend hours each month with the staff going over what we feel is the latest ploy and tactics – hopefully the agents reading this will stop doing their “job”, but that probably won’t happen --- this has lead us to the almost paranoid condition we have to be in as a gun shop and shooting range.

We have to very hard on anyone that comes with a firearm that even remotely resembles something not approved by the Gods – we have been informed that since we are letting someone shoot here we are in a sense allowing them to break the law if they have in their possession a firearm that does not meet the legal description of banned/prebanned/offlist lower/ on list whatever. We are going to be the ones (that means me) the one arrested as well as the guy/gal with the questionable firearm for allowing someone to break the law.

How many of you would like to own a business that because of someone else, someone you really don’t know, does something they may think is legal, but causes you to be arrested just because the AG wants to control guns. Remember you have to prove you are innocent in this State when it comes to guns. How much of your time and money would you invest in a business that has guarantees you audits at any time of the day by an organization that wants to put you in jail because they get bonus points for “finding” criminal activity. I don’t think there are to many takers out there. And as always be careful of what you ask for.

A far as Mr.djandj he was not talked to by a “counter clerk”, but by a trained On-Target employee trying to keep him out of trouble and me with him. We know who Mr. djandj is and I would welcome him to stop by next month after the shoot we can discuss his issues and troubles.

As for the rest of the discussion on this subject I couldn’t agree more that we in the great State of Kalifornia are being denied that which we should have. I would like to be selling any of the “Black” guns anyone wanted to shoot, but I don’t. The stigma from the previous owner, the constant scrutiny and personal visits shows me that even one simple mistake is all it would take to close these doors. One agent made a comment that they felt firarms with bullet buttons were really AW's and they were working to remove that "tool" part of the definition.

The serious lack of clear definition of an “assault” weapon, or I should say the way the definition of an assault weapon is changing, depending who is the Cal AG, keeps me from doing so. I would be selling Sig 556’s right now, but Sig could not get a letter from the DOJ after building a Ca compliant model. The comment coming back was that the firearm was built per the specs, but they were reviewing the specs so there would be no letter. Not wanting to sell something to a customer and have it suddenly considered an AW and have them in trouble, as well as this store, I don’t sell them. Other stores do and I really hope they don’t get dinged by the DOJ.

I will continue to support the rights of all firearm owners in California and do what I can to get the laws back to what truly reflects what our founding fathers intended. I only hope that we can get those around us to realize their rights are being violated, not just us, but theirs too.

I am always open to frank discussion about the range, its policies, guns, and general topics, stop by and we can talk. I offer free water and a place to sit and talk

Gregg

GMONEY
12-24-2008, 10:26 AM
One agent made a comment that they felt firarms with bullet buttons were really AW's and they were working to remove that "tool" part of the definition.



I think they got that mixed up... They (DOJ) are the TOOLS!!!:)

Plus even if they tried to remove that part they would then have to let all of us register are OLL's as AW's correct? We would be grandfathered in somehow...

Ford8N
12-24-2008, 11:35 AM
As for the rest of the discussion on this subject I couldn’t agree more that we in the great State of Kalifornia are being denied that which we should have. I would like to be selling any of the “Black” guns anyone wanted to shoot, but I don’t. The stigma from the previous owner, the constant scrutiny and personal visits shows me that even one simple mistake is all it would take to close these doors. One agent made a comment that they felt firarms with bullet buttons were really AW's and they were working to remove that "tool" part of the definition.



WOW! Who is "they"? Who is the "agent"? And if they change the law, doesn't that open up Registration again?

dreyna14
12-24-2008, 11:37 AM
I think they got that mixed up... They (DOJ) are the TOOLS!!!:)

Plus even if they tried to remove that part they would then have to let all of us register are OLL's as AW's correct? We would be grandfathered in somehow...

I have a big Italian mouth and would've told that DOJ ****head where to shove it. Everybody is scared ****less of these jerks and they need to be called out and a good kick in the pants.

Sniper3142
12-24-2008, 11:54 AM
As the owner of On-Target I don’t often get involved with online discussions, since I am often accused of a strong bias in one direction or another, but in this case I feel I need to wade in...

I am always open to frank discussion about the range, its policies, guns, and general topics, stop by and we can talk. I offer free water and a place to sit and talk

Gregg

Thank you for commenting in this thread Gregg.

I've always had a pleasent experience at your range and understand the situation. Next time I'm there shooting Easy-E targets with my USP I'll keep an eye out for these DOJ pimples.

:)

CAL.BAR
12-24-2008, 12:23 PM
[QUOTE=ontargetrange;1819108]
We have to [be] very hard on anyone that comes with a firearm that even remotely resembles something not approved by the Gods – we have been informed that since we are letting someone shoot here we are in a sense allowing them to break the law if they have in their possession a firearm that does not meet the legal description of banned/prebanned/offlist lower/ on list whatever. We are going to be the ones (that means me) the one arrested as well as the guy/gal with the questionable firearm for allowing someone to break the law.

Gregg - I absolutely will stop by after the next match or whenever I'm around to chat with you. I do respectfully disagree with your quote above. I'm aware of no criminal statute which would make you liable for "possession" of an AW merely by holding a range open to the public, much less any case law to that affect. While I understand the scrutiny you feel you are under, the laws just don't work that way. Aiding and abetting requires specific knowledge of the crime and acts in furtherance of that criminal act. Merely operating a public shooting range doesn't give you actual or constructive possession of my weapon, nor does it make to an accessory to any offense committed by me. For that matter assisting suicide is also illegal, but I haven't heard of any range owners arrested following suicides at the range. Right? Ask the folks up in HB, they just had another suicide.

RE: your "trained employee" I don't know what his training is or was. He had apparently never seen a Vector .40cal. (or at least one with the mag paddle sheered off). This isn't some temporary BB modification, but a PERMANENT alteration to the weapon making it IMPOSSIBLE to drop that mag without a SCREWDRIVER (not a bullet or other debatable tool) It doesn't bother me that your employee wasn't familiar with the weapon (you can't be ready with the specs on everything your guests bring in). But what irked me was his vehemence and assuredness with which he told me that I was committing a felony and the fact that I had a chart with detailed statutory support for my position which he had apparently no interest in. IMHO that chart should be mandatory reading for your folks and pinned to the wall for all to see.

Overall he was courteous and polite (if legally off base) and for that I thank both him and you. He didn't argue with me or interfere with my use of the range so really a tempest in a teapot. I take both registered AW's and OLL's there frequently for many years now and have never had an issue, and I don't expect any in the future. Your range is a great place to shoot and ,as you know, I am there frequently. I will certainly chat with you if you are in the next time I am there. I have some ideas which may help aswage your concerns about OLL's at your range.

artherd
12-24-2008, 1:34 PM
We have to very hard on anyone that comes with a firearm that even remotely resembles something not approved by the Gods – we have been informed that since we are letting someone shoot here we are in a sense allowing them to break the law if they have in their possession a firearm that does not meet the legal description of banned/prebanned/offlist lower/ on list whatever. We are going to be the ones (that means me) the one arrested as well as the guy/gal with the questionable firearm for allowing someone to break the law.

Really? You get that in writing? Under which Penal Code section would they cite you - exactly?

A far as Mr.djandj he was not talked to by a “counter clerk”, but by a trained On-Target employee trying to keep him out of trouble and me with him. We know who Mr. djandj is and I would welcome him to stop by next month after the shoot we can discuss his issues and troubles.

It sounds like his only troubles stem from the intentional promulgation by DOJ of a culture of fear.

One agent made a comment that they felt firarms with bullet buttons were really AW's and they were working to remove that "tool" part of the definition.

That's funny - did that same agent also mention that members of Calguns.net, namely Gene Hoffman the chairman of the Calguns Foundation (link in my signature) went above the heads of the DOJ, to the OAL, and got what amounts to an injunction against that illegal underground regulation? http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/oal/OAL-280-Suspension-Notice-2007-09-21-w-Attachments.pdf

You know what, next time they try that crap - tell them Ben Cannon says they're full of ****. If they don't know who Ben Cannon is, tell them to ask their boss. She knows. (so does the AG himself.)

The serious lack of clear definition of an “assault” weapon, or I should say the way the definition of an assault weapon is changing, depending who is the Cal AG, keeps me from doing so. I would be selling Sig 556’s right now, but Sig could not get a letter from the DOJ after building a Ca compliant model. The comment coming back was that the firearm was built per the specs, but they were reviewing the specs so there would be no letter. Not wanting to sell something to a customer and have it suddenly considered an AW and have them in trouble, as well as this store, I don’t sell them. Other stores do and I really hope they don’t get dinged by the DOJ.

That is your right, but please get some proper legal advice. DOJ are trying to strong-arm you, and they are the ones breaking the law.

I am always open to frank discussion about the range, its policies, guns, and general topics, stop by and we can talk. I offer free water and a place to sit and talk

Gregg

Outstanding - thanks for coming on here Gregg.

NiteQwill
12-24-2008, 5:51 PM
Gregg,
From your response, you are letting the DOJ back you into a corner that is filled with FUD. These "agents" giving you an under-the-breath warning not to do this-or-that only reinforces your business' unwillingness to support LEGAL 2A rights for Californians.

I still will continue to never set foot in your store/range because of the incompetence of your employees. I continue to tell other shooters this, too. The power yourself and your employees have to educate shooters is profound in such a great way and remains a great responsibility for all gun store owners in our great state, but instead, your credibility is flushed down the toilet by giving into the FUD. I give my business to others in the area who have actually opened their eyes to our precious rights. FWIW, I was a member for 2 years right after the old owner got the boot. Things have not changed and continue not to change.

I appreciate the response but it only solidifies what many shooters in the OC already area know and why traveling a few minutes in each direction is well worth it to avoid the hassle of dealing with incompetency.

_Odin_
12-24-2008, 6:15 PM
Man...

This whole thread just typifies how rediclious firearm laws and the DOJ/BOF are here in CA.

Unbelievable.

If I wasn't tied down by family and my job - I would be out of this hell-hole state in a flash.

ontargetrange
12-26-2008, 10:50 AM
I really love these blogs --- some of the best information and really practical data is readily available to everyone. Unfortunately, some of what has been said back/to/about what I posted has been both bad and good. I see where some consider my position as a retreat from what my rights are and knuckling under to the DOJ. While others think I am too conservative on my support for 2ndA rights and OLL’s etc… -- while others consider this range something close to hell on earth -- What is so great about this country is that we can all say that out loud and mean it without fear of someone kicking in the front door to take you away.

Some don’t realize and perhaps it is because you have not dealt directly with the DOJ and ATF at the FFL business owner level, is their total lack of concern for your rights. I have been fortunate to have worked with a few of the good ones so far and have met some of the not so great. The power some of these individuals have over a business is amazing – not great, just amazing. Remember you are guilty until you prove you are innocent.

What other organization can walk into a business, stop all retail sales (just firearms) while they do a bottoms up audit. I have been audited 3 times in just under three years of business. A FFL dealer can usually expect an audit once every 4 to 5 years, but because I am On-Target, I get extra care and service. For as many hours as it takes, 100% of my time is spent answering questions about anything they want to know. They can do a bottom to top search for anything remotely considered a firearm within the premises.

You are expected to have within a short walk anything listed in your books. No mistakes allowed. No errors of any kind are permissible. I even got dinged because we didn’t have the paperwork in a numeric order the auditor wanted. Never mind that there is no specific order required, only that it be in a numeric order. We have three different set of numbers on just one DROS so who knew which one should be used – so we kept using ours as it works with our system. But, I still had to respond to the corrective action I was written up for.

As far as being accused of giving in to the FUD we haven’t, but then how do I or one of my guys prove that – we don’t and won’t. When we get our monthly stings one of the questions asked of us, if answered with the word yes, gets us jail time. Imaging that, one simple word and its handcuff time. The range is immediately shutdown, because they have to do the criminal investigation of the terrible crime that has been committed. I get a very unbiased write up in the LA Times and write a check to an attorney for $25k as a retainer.

I have created as part of EVERY lesson plan for every class here at the range a lesson what each individual’s rights with firearms are in the wonderful state of Kalifornia. We stress that now that a student has taken a class they are part of the solution to the firearm issues in the state. They now have the challenge to go out to all of their family and neighbors to educate them that guns are not evil and that the Government is lying. CALGUN.NET is one of the sites we send them to for information.

Has this been effective – VERY --- we have doubled the number of our classes and the return rate for additional classes and skill building is over 80%. We must be something right and it is not knuckling under to the FUD Folks. We keep seeing shooters bringing their neighbors and family that THEY invited to shoot. We see families, and extended families, coming in to shoot. We see many individuals come in because someone told them we could answer a question for them. These things don’t happen because we roll over easily. We have made a commitment to the shooters in South OC and it shows by the number of new shooters coming in.

I didn’t just think about the current group of shooters out there. The average age of our range users was to old – sorry guys --- I needed to look out and see where are my customers 3 – 5 -10 years from now. The ONLY way to get more customers was to get them young.

I have been involved with the Boy Scouts here in OC as a Merit Badge Counselor ( I have to ask here why aren’t ALL of you) and have seen what can happen to a young man and his Father when the boy gets involved in getting his Rifle Merit Badge. I have had Dad’s tell me that it has been YEARS since they were shooting, but since their son wants to do it they are back at it. This happens EVERY month here. It was a conscience decision on my part to dedicate part of the range time each month just for Scout Troops. That was nearly three years ago. We still charge a flat fee for each Scout and with the donations from range members and my paying for ammo we plan on keeping it inexpensive for as long as I own the range.

Today we get three Troops a month in here and since they were having so much fun the other local youth groups wanted in. So now we get Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Indian Guides, YMCA, Church Youth Groups, and Youth Birthday parties. Return rate for these people is over 40% that we know of. We hear that some groups now go out to the desert to shoot, because there is just too many of them for the range, and they want the camping time as well.

I would hope that those reading this would want to be as dedicated as we are here at this range. Whatever range you want to use make sure you invite as many people as possible to go with you. Not the same guys each time – where are the new Guys/Gals --- that’s right don’t forget the Women. We have tripled our Women’s Classes and they get booked up very quickly. There is an interest so don’t forget them.

I know that I can’t possibly make everyone happy that is a shooter. And, I don’t plan on it. I don’t allow rapid fire – look at the holes in the ceiling to see the results of lack of control. I restrict rifles to those that have been properly warned, over 450 so far. I don’t want people with attitudes that consider themselves superior or better than the RSO behind the counter. Until you have the legal responsibility an employee here has, you have no right to demean them in any way. You are not the one that is going to be sued for someone else being stupid. You are not the one that will have to hire your own attorney because some really experienced shooter just put one into his buddy and now the buddy wants to collect on the California Legal Lottery.

I have spend $40k this year on lawsuits because of stupid things – one of them didn’t even happen on my watch, it happened in 2004 and that “person” is trying to see if my insurance will pay off or not. My insurance won’t cover me because it was BEFORE I even owned the current policy. The rest were dumb people trying to see if I would cough up something – NOT.
So in closing – I tend to get long winded and take some things very personal, I ask that each of you do as I have done, as well as the employees here at On-Target

Become NRA Instructors in Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun. Personal Protection Inside the Home, Personal Protection Outside the Home, Range Safety Officers (RSO), Rifle Shooting Merit Badge Counselors

Donate 20 hours per month – at no pay – to a youth organization
Donate Free meeting room time at your place of business four evenings a month to the FNRA, Two evenings a month to the NRA members council,
Pay an employee to support FNRA at the OC gunshow by displaying the donated firearms, Purchase 10 cases of 22lr ammo for Scouts to shoot
Print and distribute any firearm related Alert or other CRPA documentation
Donate to the Olympic Shooters
Donate to the FNRA
Attend MULTIPLE FNRA dinners and purchase tickets

I could act just like the last owners and just do virtually none of these activities, but I don’t. I have been and will continue to be a strong supporter of shooting and all firearms that someone ever wants to purchase and use. If this short list isn’t enough, so be it. I didn’t plan on making everyone love me or even like me. Just do better than me in all ways.

Regards

Gregg

NiteQwill
12-26-2008, 4:43 PM
And with that said, either educate or fire your incompetent employees. A business is only as good as its dumbest (or smartest) employee. It is YOUR responsibility to make sure they follow YOUR business ideals/ethics/practices/whatever.

postal16
12-26-2008, 5:36 PM
Thanks for the clarification Gregg...I always enjoyed shooting at your range when I was living in OC, and now it is winter in Nor Cal I miss having a nearby indoor range!

Keep up the good work with the Scouts, this Eagle Scout very much appreciates it!

artherd
12-26-2008, 6:29 PM
Some don’t realize and perhaps it is because you have not dealt directly with the DOJ and ATF at the FFL business owner level, is their total lack of concern for your rights.

I've been there, as have others on CGF. We can help.

ontargetrange
12-30-2008, 2:31 PM
And with that said, either educate or fire your incompetent employees. A business is only as good as its dumbest (or smartest) employee. It is YOUR responsibility to make sure they follow YOUR business ideals/ethics/practices/whatever.

Stop by and meet with me and we can discuss who are the uninformed employees --- I am really curious

yellowfin
12-30-2008, 2:47 PM
Man...

This whole thread just typifies how rediclious firearm laws and the DOJ/BOF are here in CA.

Unbelievable.

If I wasn't tied down by family and my job - I would be out of this hell-hole state in a flash.The solution is to fight against it. We need to push for official oppression laws which outlaw this kind of behavior by the DOJ--as in they go to jail for this kind of mistreatment. This is going on because thus far it has been allowed to be a one way street. Their unconcern for our rights needs to be made a liability for them to the tune of 30-120 days with convictions on their records.