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View Full Version : DOJ "bullying" Calguns vendor selling magazine parts kits


aplinker
12-19-2008, 1:15 AM
I wanted to cross-post this here from the sale forum for exposure.

My hope is that perhaps "The Right People" would give them some reassurance that they've done nothing illegal and perhaps convince them to continue to supply magazine parts kits.

Bad news for everyone who has been buying our rebuild kits. About a month ago we sold 35 AR15 magazine kits to a guy in CA. The floorplates on these were marked "Military/Gov't Use Only" and this guy is having a hissy fit because he thinks he is going to get in trouble. He even went behind our back to call our distributor of said magazines to see if they would send him unmarked floorplates and the representative wasn't very keen on the idea of shipping their magazines (which also have their name on floorplate) to CA. I tried explaining to the Rep. that it was perfectly legal but he wouldn't hear nothing of it and is threatening to cut our account.

After I got off the phone with the Rep., I called and spoke with "Mike" at the CA Dept. of Justice to verify my actions and while he did say it was legal to ship the kits, he also explained that it is a very grey "shaded" area to be in as far as a Dealer to ship them and that the shades of grey will vary from county to county and that in the end if anyone is proven guilty of assembling these kits into complete magazines, that it will fall in the hands of the dealer who sold them. He also stated that the kits could NOT contain every piece of the magazine, it had to be short a piece. To be honest, we have been shipping complete kits, not knowing this is illegal.

We are a very small business run by my wife and I and just can't afford for something to happen that could put the business in jeopardy. I know this is going to be bad news for a lot of you but I hope you guys understand our situation. There are still some companies out there that will provide this service so hopefully they can take care of you but unfortunately we are going to have to call it "our loss" and throw in our towel so to speak.

I also want to take a moment to thank everyone in CA who has bought kits from us. You guys have been very supportive and loyal and we want to thank you for your business. Hopefully we can still help with other firearm related parts and accessories.

jumbopanda
12-19-2008, 1:32 AM
F the DOJ. That's all I have to say on the matter.

leelaw
12-19-2008, 1:35 AM
It's a "grey area"? Hmm, DOJ has said that it's perfectly legal.

How much of a "grey area" is determined by the county? That's funny, after having the top state LE agency state otherwise.

The kits need to be sold with one piece missing? Hmm, DOJ has said nothing of the sort in past correspondence.

If someone builds the magazine illegally, unbeknownst to the dealer/distributor, the dealer/distributor may be held liable? That's.. just.. stupid.

FUD out the wazoo on this one.

69Mach1
12-19-2008, 1:37 AM
Another unknowledgeable DOJ phone jockey. We already have it in writing. Seems their "58 DA's" is the standard answer.

artherd
12-19-2008, 1:53 AM
He also stated that the kits could NOT contain every piece of the magazine, it had to be short a piece.

Tell "Mike" to read his boss's letters:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

yellowfin
12-19-2008, 3:11 AM
Imagine what it would be like if every deliberate DOJ utterance of FUD with their obvious ill intent was punishable as a misdemeanor...

artherd
12-19-2008, 4:08 AM
Yeah, if only 18 U.S.C. 1951 was a misdemeanor...

Oh wait, it's actually a felony!

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001951----000-.html

AJAX22
12-19-2008, 5:44 AM
I've personally (as a CA resident) sold close to two thousand ar15 complete magazine rebuild kits, along with kits for numerous other makes and models over the last two years.

It is completely legal, I did not hide my actions in any way and I made it known that I was selling them with replacement pieces for all of the parts, I did not withhold anything as is completely legal to sell all of the parts together so long as they are being sold for rebuilding existing legally owned pre 2000 magazines.

I did this from my apartment in Los Angeles (zip code 90034)

several other members on here have picked up the torch now that I am no longer able to continue providing that service (I can't do anything gun related while living in NYC)

I guarantee that if it WAS illegal they would have been all over me,


I was a choice target (College student, located within the jurisdiction of the LA gun task force, with a LARGE collection of firearms, evil black rifles, body armor, ammunition etc) And I sold magazine rebuild kits for nearly two years, all the time being quite public and vocal about both the quantity of sales that I was engaging in and the nature of the items being sold.

These assclowns count on being able to intimidate businesses and individuals who cannot afford to defend against malicious prosecution, but there bark has no bite.

You have to be willing to swing your nuts like a deadblow hammer to put these jackasses in their place.

this is a very clear cut area of law which is well defined as being totally and completely legal.

ZombieKiller
12-19-2008, 5:46 AM
So does anyone know a good source for Glock magazine rebuild kits now? Besides johnsbeautifulangel ?

acolytes
12-19-2008, 7:40 AM
I've personally (as a CA resident) sold close to two thousand ar15 complete magazine rebuild kits, along with kits for numerous other makes and models over the last two years.

It is completely legal, I did not hide my actions in any way and I made it known that I was selling them with replacement pieces for all of the parts, I did not withhold anything as is completely legal to sell all of the parts together so long as they are being sold for rebuilding existing legally owned pre 2000 magazines.

I did this from my apartment in Los Angeles (zip code 90034)

several other members on here have picked up the torch now that I am no longer able to continue providing that service (I can't do anything gun related while living in NYC)

I guarantee that if it WAS illegal they would have been all over me,


I was a choice target (College student, located within the jurisdiction of the LA gun task force, with a LARGE collection of firearms, evil black rifles, body armor, ammunition etc) And I sold magazine rebuild kits for nearly two years, all the time being quite public and vocal about both the quantity of sales that I was engaging in and the nature of the items being sold.

These assclowns count on being able to intimidate businesses and individuals who cannot afford to defend against malicious prosecution, but there bark has no bite.

You have to be willing to swing your nuts like a deadblow hammer to put these jackasses in their place.

this is a very clear cut area of law which is well defined as being totally and completely legal.

lol, that was awesome!:rofl2:

Pvt. Cowboy
12-19-2008, 9:05 AM
I called and spoke with "Mike" at the CA Dept. of Justice to verify my actions and while he did say it was legal to ship the kits, he also explained that it is a very grey "shaded" area to be in as far as a Dealer to ship them and that the shades of grey will vary from county to county

The phrase 'Grey area' used by the CA-DOJ... Is that a legal term?

That's sure one of the things I don't miss about CA: How nothing is every really established in law, but the state laws pile up as high as the pyramids at Giza nevertheless. Laws pile up faster than you can get away from them, but most are unenforceable until the time comes that they want to enforce one of them on you.

Gay marriage, medicinal marijuana, illegal alien 'sanctuary cities', ballot propositions passed by a clear majority of voters, off-list lower receivers... Nothing's ever really decided. Legal here, not legal over there. Embraced in this county, abhorred in that county. 'Innocent until proven guilty' doesn't exist in CA. It's more like 'Probably guilty until someone at the DA's office finally searches through the enormous and confusing lexicon of CA law and tentatively concludes they may have to drop the charges'. Just because the CA civil code doesn't cover something specifically or is silent on the issue doesn't mean it's legal... Or, conversely, doesn't mean it's prohibited. All depends on the whim of the grandstanding idiot boy-Mayor, or a District Attorney who receives a report from an uncertain cop, or the secret 1-800-SNITCH lines: "Do you think your neighbor might be breaking the law? Call California's 1-800-SNITCH line and we'll eventually send someone around to decide if someone higher up should decide if a decision should be made as to whether your neighbor may or may not be breaking the law... or whatever"... and when all is said and done, any pony-tailed bearded judge can overturn or reinstate anything with the rap of his gavel... Or her gavel. Hasn't really been decided what sex that bearded judge is.

Glad I don't have to live under a schizophrenic and rudderless crypto-Soviet system like that anymore.

dustoff31
12-19-2008, 9:31 AM
Originally Posted by Shooters Plus
About a month ago we sold 35 AR15 magazine kits to a guy in CA. The floorplates on these were marked "Military/Gov't Use Only" and this guy is having a hissy fit because he thinks he is going to get in trouble. He even went behind our back to call our distributor of said magazines to see if they would send him unmarked floorplates and the representative wasn't very keen on the idea of shipping their magazines (which also have their name on floorplate) to CA. I tried explaining to the Rep. that it was perfectly legal but he wouldn't hear nothing of it and is threatening to cut our account.


Not to defend DOJ, but really, who did more damage to the cause here? DOJ or the idiot who bought the mag kits and then made a stink?

This type of thing along combined with DOJ's nonsense is the reason many dealers won't ship to CA. Not because they want to "punish" CA gun owners.

383green
12-19-2008, 9:33 AM
...

I am no longer able to continue providing that service

...

sorensen440
12-19-2008, 9:35 AM
...

Yeah that was before my morning coffee :p

sorensen440
12-19-2008, 9:36 AM
So does anyone know a good source for Glock magazine rebuild kits now? Besides johnsbeautifulangel ?

Check with Lance at LAK Supply I think he is still taking orders
also 44mag.com might have them

dfletcher
12-19-2008, 9:36 AM
If selling an entire rebuild kit with all parts is "grey area" then does it follow that selling a rebuild kit minus a single part such as a floorplate or follower is not a greay area and is per DOJ legal?

To clarify, I'm not saying the complete kit is a grey area, just following DOJ thinking to its logical conclusion.

sorensen440
12-19-2008, 9:37 AM
If selling an entire rebuild kit with all parts is "grey area" then does it follow that selling a rebuild kit minus a single part such as a floorplate or follower is not a greay area and is per DOJ legal?

To clarify, I'm not saying the complete kit is a grey area, just following DOJ thinking to its logical conclusion.

Selling parts is not against the law period

383green
12-19-2008, 9:41 AM
The whole "grey area" thing is just DOJ-speak for "This is perfectly legal, but our highly-trained JBTs will charge you anyway in hopes that it'll slip in under the CGF's radar."

dfletcher
12-19-2008, 9:45 AM
Selling parts is not against the law period

Agree.

But I would be curious as to this DOJ fellow's response if a caller said "Gee you're right - I can't sell the whole thing. But thank you for telling me I can sell everything except the follower (or floorplate) as a rebuild kit." Instead of saying that's correct, my guess is Mr. DOJ would come up with another excuse, such as you can't include a part that according to DOJ can't wear out" such as a floorplate. I think the DOJ guy has been trained (brainwashed) to default to "No, you can't do that".

hawk1
12-19-2008, 10:08 AM
Not to defend DOJ, but really, who did more damage to the cause here? DOJ or the idiot who bought the mag kits and then made a stink?

This type of thing along combined with DOJ's nonsense is the reason many dealers won't ship to CA. Not because they want to "punish" CA gun owners.

I agree. It would be nice to know which asshat did this. :mad:

sorensen440
12-19-2008, 10:11 AM
I agree. It would be nice to know which asshat did this. :mad:

Very likely was not a Calgunner
but you don't blame the rabbit for being eaten by the wolf

aplinker
12-19-2008, 3:18 PM
The reason I cross-posted was because the language harkens back to the old "gray area" language and nasty BS they used to pull on lowers.

It's disturbing how nasty they can be.

Captain Evilstomper
12-19-2008, 3:21 PM
but it's still BS FUD because there is no constructive possesion of hi cap mags, so as ling as all the parts are together but not assembled, it's a pile of metal parts. man they can get away with a lot of stuff can't they?

AJAX22
12-19-2008, 3:27 PM
There must have been a bunch of stuff redacted in this thread... the flow doesn't make a lot of sense....

hawk1
12-19-2008, 4:26 PM
Very likely was not a Calgunner
but you don't blame the rabbit for being eaten by the wolf

Yeah, I most likely read more into it this than there was, thinking it was a CG guy.

_Odin_
12-19-2008, 4:38 PM
Tell "Mike" to read his boss's letters:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

but it's still BS FUD because there is no constructive possesion of hi cap mags, so as ling as all the parts are together but not assembled, it's a pile of metal parts. man they can get away with a lot of stuff can't they?

So no constructive possesion - but in response to Q9 of the PDF Artherd provided, the DOJ references "intent to manufacture" high cap mags.

Is this FUD?

wilit
12-19-2008, 5:51 PM
You have to be willing to swing your nuts like a deadblow hammer to put these jackasses in their place.


OMG, I just found a new sig line. :rofl2:

AJAX22
12-19-2008, 5:56 PM
OMG, I just found a new sig line. :rofl2:

Your welcome

Heh.... between ben Franklin and MLK... I feel honored...

DedEye
12-19-2008, 11:54 PM
So no constructive possesion - but in response to Q9 of the PDF Artherd provided, the DOJ references "intent to manufacture" high cap mags.

Is this FUD?

There is no such law.

Captain Evilstomper
12-20-2008, 12:23 AM
"intent to manufacture ' pretty much = constructive posession
so i say FUD.
they may try to claim something like that but after $thousands it would get thrown out. the CADOJ is known for making spurious charges try to stick to make case law which means that they don't have to pass new laws. if you don't have a law, but you have case law. it's almost as good.

Seesm
12-20-2008, 2:41 AM
b.s it is totally legal to sell a parts kits to fix mags for us that have old mags that pre date the "ban" does DOJ just say whatever to get a response for people...?

10TH AMENDMENT
12-20-2008, 12:15 PM
Man, there are times when I just pray that Kestryl would provide amnesty days wherein he would allow the use of the "F" word on calguns!!!
:mad::mad::mad::mad:

LOW2000
12-23-2008, 9:06 PM
How come this DOJ employee is not able to be charged with disruption of interstate commerce?

AJAX22
12-23-2008, 9:20 PM
How come this DOJ employee is not able to be charged with disruption of interstate commerce?

They are... however finding someone to bring charges is difficult.

rayra
12-23-2008, 10:58 PM
Imagine what it would be like if every deliberate DOJ utterance of FUD with their obvious ill intent was punishable as a misdemeanor...
MIght as well imagine that ANY government lacky is ever held responsible for doing their jobs improperly.

FreedomIsNotFree
12-24-2008, 12:31 AM
This is another example of why any and all communication with the CADOJ must be by written correspondence.