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The Calguns Foundation
12-18-2008, 6:27 PM
The Calguns Foundation Announces Successful Defense
of John Contos of Sacramento-Based Sonoma Firearms


Case based on the incorrect theory that U-15 Stocks are
“thumbhole” stocks (and/or constitute a pistol grip) is dismissed.


Improper prosecution brought by California Department of Justice
Bureau of Firearms as retribution and regulatory over-reach.


December 18, 2008


(CALGUNS.NET) - Redwood City, CA – The Calguns Foundation (CGF) announces that it has again successfully defended an innocent person charged with violating California’s complex and overbearing firearms laws. The Solano County District Attorney’s office dismissed all charges in an Assault Weapon-related case in People v. Contos. John Contos, the proprietor of Sonoma Firearms, was charged based upon the theory that the California Rifles’ brand “U-15” stock constituted a thumbhole stock (or was in fact a pistol grip) - and was thus a feature triggering Assault Weapon status under California law.


Background: In June 2007, Mr. Contos was contacted by Supervisory Special Agent Ignatius Chinn of the California Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms in relation to sales of off-list lower receivers for California-legal rifles. According to California law, the serialized “lower receivers” of rifles or pistols that might be considered “Assault Weapons” – and which are not specified by make and model – cannot be considered “Assault Weapons” unless they are specifically listed in California “Assault Weapons” law by make and model. Receivers not listed by make and model are known as “off-list”, and are perfectly legal to sell and possess.

However, even though these receivers are perfectly legal, it is still possible to create an illegal assault weapon by putting the wrong “accessories” on one of these receivers. One such accessory, which is prohibited, except under certain circumstances, is the “thumbhole stock.”

At the Solano County Gun Show in July 2007, Agent Chinn observed that Mr. Contos was selling off-list lower receivers configured with U-15 “butt stocks.” Agent Chinn claimed such stocks were “thumbhole stocks” that could make these receivers into “Assault Weapons” by having certain feature configurations that are prohibited. As there is actually no “hole” in a U-15 stock, this position was at best specious. Later that summer, Agent Chinn obtained and served a warrant based on the “thumbhole stock” theory and seized numerous firearms - including handguns and various rifles having no relationship to this dispute.


The Case: The Calguns Foundation retained the Law Offices of Don Kilmer to defend Mr. Contos. After passage of many months and no prosecution was forthcoming, Mr. Kilmer began the civil process of demanding the return of Mr. Contos’ property. After being stonewalled by the Bureau of Firearms, Mr. Kilmer filed a Tort Claims Act claim for the return of all property as well as compensation for business interruption. Just as the window for a response to the Tort Claims Act claim was to expire, the Bureau of Firearms persuaded a Solano County District Attorney to bring criminal charges (in June 2008), claiming that Mr. Contos was guilty of offering to sell illegal Assault Weapons.

After reviewing the proposed testimony of the State’s expert (Agent Chinn) the Solano County DA had the courage to admit that he could not meet the burden of proving that a U-15-equipped rifle or receiver was an Assault Weapon. With the case’s dismissal, Mr. Contos looks forward to the prompt return of his property. The Foundation was prepared, if necessary, to secure expert testimony from topologists (mathematicians specializing in the fields of surfaces and shapes) relating to the design of the U-15 stock and its not possessing a “thumbhole”.

The Calguns Foundation remains concerned the Bureau of Firearms has shown a pattern of using the criminal courts to extract retribution against adversaries and quash dissent about their overbroad view of the law. Bureau of Firearms has - on multiple occasions - instigated criminal charges as it became clear that they would be required to return property by civil action. Additionally, the Bureau of Firearms continues to attempt to use the criminal courts to expand the regulatory reach of the Assault Weapon laws. This is contrary to California law. This pattern and practice of charging citizens with a crimes for the purpose of exploring the regulatory boundaries of a fundamental right are extremely troubling and may require redress.

CGF offers its congratulations and thanks to John Contos for his support and patience during this arduous process. Mr. Contos has been a strong personal supporter of the Calguns community, even as this process has exacted real costs to him. Thanks also to The Law Offices of Don Kilmer for their excellent work on this case to date.

Also, CGF offers its congratulations to Grant Early, inventor of the California Rifles U-15 stock, upon having it clearly deemed to be neither a thumbhole stock nor a pistol grip.

Please consider a donation to offset the legal fees and other costs that The Calguns Foundation bore in this case - and which it continues to bear in order to defend other cases. Your donations are likely to be tax deductible, as The Calguns Foundation expects to be obtaining 501(c)(3) tax-deductible status. You can donate (at http://calgunsfoundation.org/main/index.php/donate) via check, credit card, homebanking payments, and Paypal.

The Calguns Foundation expects to see this case through to a final and satisfactory conclusion for both Mr. Contos and the California sport shooting community.


Gene Hoffman, Jr.
Chairman, The Calguns Foundation



("Calguns.net", all associated variants and logos are © Copyrights
and Trademarks of Calguns.net. 2008, All Rights Reserved.)

( "The Calguns Foundation", "calgunsfoundation.org", all associated
variants and logos are © Copyright and Trademarks of The Calguns
Foundation. 2008, All Rights Reserved. )

QuarterBoreGunner
12-18-2008, 6:39 PM
The Foundation was prepared, if necessary, to secure expert testimony from topologists

You had me at topologists.

Cash inbound.

sorensen440
12-18-2008, 6:43 PM
:party:

VegasND
12-18-2008, 7:47 PM
Good news. I hope this continues and that rights in California can be reclaimed.

97F1504RAD
12-18-2008, 7:47 PM
Outstanding

Congratulations

artherd
12-18-2008, 7:52 PM
Every little victory :) CGF is kicking butt and taking names. And we're just getting started. If you like what you see, please donate!

RRangel
12-18-2008, 7:54 PM
Oh! :D

wilit
12-18-2008, 7:56 PM
AWESOME!

Bad Voodoo
12-18-2008, 8:01 PM
http://blogs.smh.com.au/mashup/images/applause.gif

Saigon1965
12-18-2008, 8:02 PM
Well done CGF -

Hans Gruber
12-18-2008, 8:05 PM
Outstanding work :)

Backcountry
12-18-2008, 8:13 PM
Ignatius Chinn sounds like a real d****ead.

I'm sending $100 to the foundation to stop *******s like him.

383green
12-18-2008, 8:21 PM
:clap:

The Foundation was prepared, if necessary, to secure expert testimony from topologists (mathematicians specializing in the fields of surfaces and shapes) relating to the design of the U-15 stock and its not possessing a “thumbhole”.

This was my favorite part!

JeffM
12-18-2008, 8:28 PM
Love it.


Well done.

anthonyca
12-18-2008, 8:31 PM
It seems like everytime I loose hope about gun laws and our politicians the CGF wins a lawsuit or helps someone in need. Good work.

383green
12-18-2008, 8:42 PM
It seems like everytime I loose hope about gun laws and our politicians the CGF wins a lawsuit or helps someone in need. Good work.

Ever since my first introduction to the OLL movement, my hope about conquering unjust gun laws has been monotonically increasing.

trashman
12-18-2008, 8:48 PM
GREAT work Gene, Don, et al! Congratulations on the win. I love what you guys are doing, and I love how you are doing it!

--Neill

Liberty1
12-18-2008, 8:55 PM
:clap:



This was my favorite part!

No need to pay for "experts". I just showed my wife a U-15 stock and she said, "so where is the hole?". :)

JeffM
12-18-2008, 8:56 PM
So... will U-15 stocks now come with a DOJ dis-approval letter? :D

hawk1
12-18-2008, 9:05 PM
:King:

otalps
12-18-2008, 9:27 PM
Haven't heard anything about Iggy in a while. So this is what he's been up to lately? Taking a break from shooting up desks? :D

Good work, CGF!

ivanimal
12-18-2008, 9:30 PM
This one feels extra good, now we must help John get his property back!

rkt88edmo
12-18-2008, 9:36 PM
Consider the toroid...

jrsportssupply
12-18-2008, 9:42 PM
CGF has accomplished more this year than any other 2A group that I'm aware of. Congrats and expect a check from us!

yellowfin
12-18-2008, 9:53 PM
Any punitive damages for DoJerks and Iggy?

artherd
12-18-2008, 11:24 PM
Any punitive damages for DoJerks and Iggy?

Stay tuned to this station ;)

anthonyca
12-18-2008, 11:35 PM
Stay tuned to this station ;)

I got a warm and fuzzy feeling just thinking of a lawsuit aginst iggy for punitive damages.

Ford8N
12-19-2008, 4:55 AM
No need to pay for "experts". I just showed my wife a U-15 stock and she said, "so where is the hole?". :)

Just goes to show you either the level of intelligence or malevolence of the DOJ....or both.

bradph
12-19-2008, 5:59 AM
Congratulations!!!!!! Thank you everyone!!! :)

Homer
12-19-2008, 6:08 AM
I would like to know if the property taken has ever been returned. You may recall The Stanislaus county case of Sierra Shooting Sports in Modesto. The Madison Society listed me as "Joe Gun Guy", yes we won but had none of our property returned to us. Not only has it not been returned, we have heard nothing from the DOJ.

Toolbox X
12-19-2008, 6:47 AM
What can I say except the people who make up the Calguns Foundation are my personal heroes. The NRA should donate to THEM.

These are the guys who protect us, both individually and our remaining freedoms, and they are fighting the battles to get us back the freedoms that have been taken away. Please keep those donations coming.

Thanks for another awesome win guys!

-Grant
Owner of California Rifles

lazyworm
12-19-2008, 6:58 AM
Congrats!

Lex Arma
12-19-2008, 7:22 AM
I would like to know if the property taken has ever been returned. You may recall The Stanislaus county case of Sierra Shooting Sports in Modesto. The Madison Society listed me as "Joe Gun Guy", yes we won but had none of our property returned to us. Not only has it not been returned, we have heard nothing from the DOJ.

Have you made a demand? There is no statute of limitations for wrongfully held personal property.

Ugly Dwarf
12-19-2008, 8:27 AM
Congratulations to all involved.

I now feel even more confident using my U-15 stocked OLL.

Another check to CGF on it's way.

Dwarf

oaklander
12-19-2008, 8:43 AM
This is just the beginning. There is so much we have in the pipeline. 2009 will be an interesting year!

:D

csmintel
12-19-2008, 9:56 AM
how about going further and file criminal charge of domestic law terrorism of CA BF. They won't stop if we don't start bringing this to national attention. i think they brass needs to be named by person in suit and keem em in courts.

double_action
12-19-2008, 9:59 AM
Very nice news, many thanks to CGF!

Renron
12-19-2008, 10:03 AM
Congratulations!
Always good to hear common sense still rules (even in CA)

$ Donation made $

Ron

Cali80
12-19-2008, 10:03 AM
I've been hiatus and look what happens when I return.

Miracles and commensense prevail, just in time for Christmas.

What is Iggy going to do now that his ego is bruised?

ARBITER
12-19-2008, 10:07 AM
Thank you for all your support and guidance in having the case dismissed. Your the best. I want to thank Bill Wiese who recommended TMLLP C. D. Michell who put me in touch with Don Kilmer ( who defended me), Ivanimal (monitor), Gene Hoffman (Chairman, The Calguns Foundation), Wes Morris ( Ten Percent Guns), Ron Babcock ( Pres. Grassroots NRA Vallejo), Hector Garcia ( CWS ), Russ & Sally Nordyke ( T.S. Gun Shows) Joe Gun Guy & the Madison Society, my brother Mike (Public Defender City of brotherly love), Free and Accepted Masons of California, Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, the Law Enforcement Community at large, and many many others who supported me from Calguns. The fight is not completely over and I have the utmost confidence that Don Kilmer will obtain the release of the 47 SLR's, 5 complete upper assemblies, computer, ATF-A&D books, parts kits, bullet buttons, u-15 stock's, cash and etc.
My wife and I have always checked with Calif. D.O.J bureau of firearms for a straight answer concerning the legalities of firearms, from the Fab-Ten (CMS engine Service Co.)(mag well sealed SLR), Vulcan V15 (Mag epoxied and pinned) to firearms not on the assault weapons list. When I asked a Calif. DOJ bureau of firearms expert (Iggy) at the Vallejo Gun Show about the legalities of the U-15 stock (which wasn't even displayed, I pulled it out from a bin to show him and then put it away) he answered I have no opinion it is up to the 50 DA's and then several days later sends an undercover agent in to purchase the U-15 stock on a lower half, then 10 minutes later brings a swat team to raid my house knowing my wife was recovering from open heart surgery is unfathomable.
John Contos

goober
12-19-2008, 10:07 AM
AND THANKS TO YOU ^ :rockon:


congrats and thanks to all involved. if only we had a case like this in the bag regarding BBs/maglocks...
not that i wish the hardship on anyone to be the defendant in such a case, but once we win, it is good for all....

apbrian112
12-19-2008, 10:07 AM
congrats to all involved with this case!! i don't visit this portion of the forums all too much (whoever thought of the e-mail list thing is a genius as i would have never known about this w/o it)

CONGRATS!!

383green
12-19-2008, 10:19 AM
What is Iggy going to do now that his ego is bruised?

If it involves correctly identifying any type of hole, I predict limited success. :rolleyes:

artherd
12-19-2008, 10:52 AM
Congrats everyone, but especially John Contos and Don Kilmer!

DIG
12-19-2008, 11:56 AM
I've been hiatus and look what happens when I return.

Miracles and commensense prevail, just in time for Christmas.

What is Iggy going to do now that his ego is bruised?

bruised ego? more like an upper-cut to his Chinny-Chinn-Chinn:p

Congrats to the CGF!

-

RobG
12-19-2008, 12:06 PM
Any punitive damages for DoJerks and Iggy?


Stay tuned to this station ;)


Am I the only one that got all warm and tingly:D

gunsmith
12-19-2008, 1:08 PM
or can they have regular ten round mags that you can swap at will?

truthseeker
12-19-2008, 1:32 PM
Congrats!

Them not returning your property (after the case was dismissed) is Bull*hit!

383green
12-19-2008, 2:08 PM
do these guns have to have button mags? or can they have regular ten round mags that you can swap at will?

"Featureless" guns with an ordinary magazine latch (that is, one that is operated without a tool) can have magazines of any capacity, and they can be swapped at will.

If the gun has a non-detachable magazine (such as by installing a Bullet Button), then it may have any of the "features" such as a pistol grip or flash hider, and the magazine can even be swapped (with a tool), but it must never have a magazine that holds more than ten rounds installed.

Detachable magazine of any size + restricted features = illegal assault weapon.

Detachable magazine of any size without any other restricted features = OK.

Fixed magazine holding more than 10 rounds = illegal assault weapon, with or without the other restricted features.

Fixed magazine holding 10 or less rounds = OK, with or without the other restricted features.


The U-15 stock is one of the ways to avoid having restricted features, so that a regular magazine catch and magazines of any capacity may be used. The U-15 stock eliminates the normal pistol grip, which is one of the restricted features.

While it would be OK to build a gun with both a U-15 stock and a Bullet Button (BB) as long as the magazine holds no more than ten rounds, this would be a silly configuration unless you just happen to like the look or feel of the U-15 stock better. With the BB and a 10 round or smaller magazine, you may have as many pistol grips and flash hiders on the rifle as you want. :)

If you have a rifle with a Bullet Button, it's up to you whether you reload by swapping one 10-round magazine for another one, or remove the 10-round magazine to reload it, or leave the magazine in place and hinge open the upper half of the rifle to load it in place. Just make sure that you never put in a magazine holding more than 10 rounds, and also make sure that nobody else does that to your rifle a the range. Personally, I like to leave the magazine in place and install a plastic chamber safety flag when I'm away from the rifle (say, while changing targets), but the Range Officer may or may not like seeing an installed magazine during a range break.

The easiest way to make sense of this legal mess is to study the excellent CA AW ID Flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf). There's a link to it hiding near the upper right corner of every Calguns forum page (below the ads and the first big blue bar) in case you lose it and want a new copy.

H.M.
12-19-2008, 2:16 PM
When I asked a Calif. DOJ bureau of firearms expert (Iggy) ...about the legalities of the U-15 stock ...he answered I have no opinion it is up to the 50 DA's and then several days later sends an undercover agent in to purchase the U-15 stock on a lower half, then 10 minutes later brings a swat team to raid my house ....

Is this the way our government is supposed to treat its citizens? Iggy CREATED a criminal.


Good work, CalGuns Foundation, and keep up the good fight!

383green
12-19-2008, 2:24 PM
Is this the way our government is supposed to treat its citizens? Iggy CREATED WAS a criminal.

There, I fixed that for you. Since the U-15 stock clearly is OK according to both the text of the law and DOJ's own documents, and it clearly does not have a "thumbhole", Iggy performed a false arrest and/or gave false testimony. That's what you get when you have a law enforcement officer who is a JBT who doesn't know his head from a hole in the... uh... stock? desk? :mad:

sierratangofoxtrotunion
12-19-2008, 3:25 PM
:party:
:jump:
:party:

My hat is off to Gene and Don and many others who I'm sure were involved in this.

Does this establish any kind of precedent that the U-15 stock is legal, or did this case not make it far enough to set that in stone?

Bill92869
12-19-2008, 3:33 PM
Agent Chinn knowingly committed a false arrest, and did so under color of authority. Immediate termination and prosecution is in order. Nothing less is acceptable. For that effort I would gladly contribute.

hoffmang
12-19-2008, 3:38 PM
All,

Let me be clear. The Foundation's work is not done until John has his property in his hands. We have some experience getting things returned (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=891777).

-Gene

Experimentalist
12-19-2008, 5:26 PM
Gentlemen: Well done.

A somewhat early Christmas present for Mr. Contos, and the community at large.

I hate to think what it's like in a parallel universe, where there is no CalGuns Foundation. Ugly stuff.

I have a donation for your Christmas stockings.

KenV
12-19-2008, 7:46 PM
I've been hiatus and look what happens when I return.

Miracles and commensense prevail, just in time for Christmas.

What is Iggy going to do now that his ego is bruised?

Been gone a while myself. Great news to which I returned. Iggy? Here's to him going back into the woodwork like a certain bug that does so when the lights come on.

Thank you for all your support and guidance in having the case dismissed. Your the best. I want to thank Bill Wiese who recommended TMLLP C. D. Michell who put me in touch with Don Kilmer ( who defended me), Ivanimal (monitor), Gene Hoffman (Chairman, The Calguns Foundation), Wes Morris ( Ten Percent Guns), Ron Babcock ( Pres. Grassroots NRA Vallejo), Hector Garcia ( CWS ), Russ & Sally Nordyke ( T.S. Gun Shows) Joe Gun Guy & the Madison Society, my brother Mike (Public Defender City of brotherly love), Free and Accepted Masons of California, Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, the Law Enforcement Community at large, and many many others who supported me from Calguns. The fight is not completely over and I have the utmost confidence that Don Kilmer will obtain the release of the 47 SLR's, 5 complete upper assemblies, computer, ATF-A&D books, parts kits, bullet buttons, u-15 stock's, cash and etc.
My wife and I have always checked with Calif. D.O.J bureau of firearms for a straight answer concerning the legalities of firearms, from the Fab-Ten (CMS engine Service Co.)(mag well sealed SLR), Vulcan V15 (Mag epoxied and pinned) to firearms not on the assault weapons list. When I asked a Calif. DOJ bureau of firearms expert (Iggy) at the Vallejo Gun Show about the legalities of the U-15 stock (which wasn't even displayed, I pulled it out from a bin to show him and then put it away) he answered I have no opinion it is up to the 50 DA's and then several days later sends an undercover agent in to purchase the U-15 stock on a lower half, then 10 minutes later brings a swat team to raid my house knowing my wife was recovering from open heart surgery is unfathomable.
John Contos

That last sentence really showcases who/what we're up against. LE out of control, really. Thanks for all you have done (and will do i am sure). And thanks to all who fight this good fight.

K

PS Paypal inbound.

artherd
12-20-2008, 12:46 AM
Am I the only one that got all warm and tingly:D

Well, iggy didn't :D

artherd
12-20-2008, 9:35 AM
Don - see the title of my upcoming book ;)

I have to admit though, sometimes it does feel like both Alison and Iggy are working for us.

Lex Arma
12-20-2008, 9:50 AM
Agent Chinn knowingly committed a false arrest, and did so under color of authority. Immediate termination and prosecution is in order. Nothing less is acceptable. For that effort I would gladly contribute.

At the risk of pissing off many fellow CalGunners, you all may want to consider an alternate theory than "Iggy Chinn is a bad guy."

Mr. Chinn (and his {then} boss Randy Rossi) gave truthful and very helpful testimony in the Nordyke case regarding that gun show's compliance with federal and state law.

I am also personally aware of Mr. Chinn being more than fair in several gun cases in which he and I worked on opposite sides in the past 10-12 years. I am also NOT personally aware of any excessive use of force or police brutality on his part; which sometimes comes with the territory in firearm L.E. work. (Think Ruby Ridge and Waco.)

Mr. Chinn and I have had our disagreements, and I have been critical of his work in the past, but I will require pretty convincing evidence of malice on his part before I make the leap that he is to be personally condemned or suffer any personal liability.

Before you condemn anybody in the firearm L.E. community, consider the possibility that they are charged with enforcing downright stupid, ambiguous, non-objective laws. The ASW mess in California is properly blamed on Sacramento.

The cowards we elected who passed (and/or vote for) these laws wouldn't know a machine gun from a BB gun. They just pass unenforceable irrational laws, then dump the whole mess on the other two branches of government (courts and police), then pat themselves on the back for making the world safe for flowers and puppy dogs.

If they had any guts, they would get on with trying to outlaw/confiscate ALL guns, instead of this incremental approach. I just want the cowards to volunteer to lead the troops going door to door in their own political districts for the purpose of collecting the guns. Hopefully they will wear big name tags that also show how they voted. [I'm not holding my breath.]

Until then we need to keep the political/philosophical discussion about the purpose of the right of self-defense - and the absolute necessity of free citizens being armed - alive in this (and many other) forum(s).

Singling out one police officer who is taking an aggressive position on enforcement is a distraction. It lets the real culprits escape scrutiny by whining: "The laws we passed are just, good and moral; we just need to reign in over-zealous police officers." Every ten years, Congress does the same thing to rank & file ATF agents.

When you give a gung-ho person an impossible task, they usually try to accomplish it. We love that about our military, firemen and cops. Do we really want these folks to be passive when it comes to taking a hill, rescuing a child or catching a (really) bad guy? . . . I didn't think so.

In some ways Iggy's is (was) doing us a favor. If the CA ASW law is "stupid, ambiguous, and non-objective"; then the quickest way to demonstrate that fact to a judge (or voters) is to advertise the absurd and irrational applications of that law.

Nuf said.

Lex Arma
12-20-2008, 9:54 AM
Don - see the title of my upcoming book ;)

I have to admit though, sometimes it does feel like both Alison and Iggy are working for us.

What book? Link please.

Dedicated_dad
12-20-2008, 11:34 AM
... Singling out one police officer who is taking an aggressive position on enforcement is a distraction. It lets the real culprits escape scrutiny by whining: "The laws we passed are just, good and moral; we just need to reign in over-zealous police officers." Every ten years, Congress does the same thing to rank & file ATF agents. ...

Sir,

The "I was just following orders" defense didn't work at Nuremberg, and IMHO is equally invalid anywhere else.

This mess will stop when "rank and file" LEOs of all stripes stand up and say something to the effect of "I must respectfully decline to obey what I believe to be an illegal order."

... When you give a gung-ho person an impossible task, they usually try to accomplish it. We love that about our military, firemen and cops. Do we really want these folks to be passive when it comes to taking a hill, rescuing a child or catching a (really) bad guy? ...

Yes. If ordered to "take a hill" occupied by people who are not breaking the law, I DO want them to be passive and refuse an unlawful order.

If the "child" is in no real danger, I DO want them to be passive and refuse an unlawful order. The kid- (or more accurately parenting-) cops are the only ones CLOSE to the various drug- and gun-cops in terms of the miscarriages of justice they regularly inflict on good and decent people.

Catching the (really) bad guys is what they're charged (and paid) to do, and every minute they spend harassing a good person in the process of enforcing a stupid, improper law is nothing more or less than dereliction of duty. Further, I consider them morally culpable when these choices leave a REAL criminal on the street harm the law-abiding.

We have separation of powers in this nation for a reason. It really doesn't matter how out of line the legislature gets, if the executive refuses to enforce it then no harm can possibly be done. This is basic 9th-grade civics.

Further, let's face it: It's easy to go in all ninja'd up when you know the man on the other side of the door you're kicking in isn't going to shoot you. Most of them would RATHER go after "low hanging fruit" which leaves the REAL criminals free to go about their heinous business.

I am not anti-LEO, the fact is that a majority of my closest friends are LEOs of one sort or another, and every one of them have suffered some career damage because they put their conscience ahead of their wallet.

That they're not rendered unnoticeable because they're surrounded by hundreds or thousands of their peers is the biggest problem we have.

Yes - blame the legislators for passing stupid laws, but don't excuse the executors for blindly (or in truth, RABIDLY) enforcing them.

Don't pee on my head and tell me it's raining, nor ask me to accept jack-boot behavior from those sworn to "protect and serve."

Respectfully,

DD

Manic Moran
12-20-2008, 12:31 PM
The "I was just following orders" defense didn't work at Nuremberg, and IMHO is equally invalid anywhere else.

Except in the US Military.

Obedience to orders: It is a defense to any offense that the accused was acting pursuant to orders unless the accused knew the orders to be unlawful or a person of ordinary sense and understanding would have known the orders to be unlawful.

California's firearms laws are bizarre, subjective and often arbitrary. Unless it is something which it is blatantly obvious that it is wrong, you have to be given the benefit of the doubt. This should work both for the gun-owners trying to stay within the laws, and the people trying to enforce those laws when oftentimes even they don't know what the supposed intent is.

NTM

artherd
12-20-2008, 5:00 PM
What book? Link please.

It'll be a little while longer yet before it's published ;)

eaglemike
12-20-2008, 5:49 PM
Don,
After reading about some of Iggys testimony, I can't agree. His testimony about the alleged assault weapons at another show was IMHO stupid and silly. His allegation that some trigger group parts comprise a firearm is also way out there. I don't remember if the documentation supporting this is host by Bill W or Gene. For a guy that is charged with enforcing firearm laws, he doesn't seem to have known what he's been doing. Again, just MHO.
all the best,
Mike

Lex Arma
12-20-2008, 7:04 PM
The "I was just following orders" defense didn't work at Nuremberg, and IMHO is equally invalid anywhere else.

This mess will stop when "rank and file" LEOs of all stripes stand up and say something to the effect of "I must respectfully decline to obey what I believe to be an illegal order."

Not all of the defendants at Nuremberg were convicted. Nor was Mr. Chinn engaged in genocide.

Refusing to obey an unlawful order is risky for soldiers and cops. They tend to get shot or lose their pensions if they guess wrong. As for these LEOs who are supposed to judge for themselves which orders they will obey and which ones they will ignore; does that include members of the executive branch who are tasked with enforcing civil rights laws? So if a U.S. Marshall is supposed to insure access to voting booths in the South circa. 1963, but he respectfully declines to obey what he believes is an illegal order, that would be a proper example of separation of powers?

Lex Arma
12-20-2008, 7:30 PM
Don,
After reading about some of Iggys testimony, I can't agree. His testimony about the alleged assault weapons at another show was IMHO stupid and silly. His allegation that some trigger group parts comprise a firearm is also way out there. I don't remember if the documentation supporting this is host by Bill W or Gene. For a guy that is charged with enforcing firearm laws, he doesn't seem to have known what he's been doing. Again, just MHO.
all the best,
Mike

I believe you are making my point for me. CA ASW law is irrational. It is impossible to enforce. Any attempt to do so results in irrational conduct and injustice.

You said yourself (IMHO) that you had a difference of "opinion" with Mr. Chinn. Criticize his opinion. Attack his conclusions. You can even suggest that he is biased in favor of the status quo. The point I was making was that before Mr. Chinn could be personally liable, clear and convincing evidence of a kind of malice is legally (morally?) necessary.

Is it reasonable to expect every LEO to resign from their jobs, and forfeit their pensions and jobs when the legislature passes dumb laws?

Blackhawk556
12-21-2008, 7:21 AM
so this means anywhere in california, someone with a OLL and u15 stock can not be arrested or charged with having an assault weapon?

or does someone still run the risk of being arrested by having this set up?
saying it complies with all other penal code requirements

hoffmang
12-21-2008, 10:53 AM
so this means anywhere in california, someone with a OLL and u15 stock can not be arrested or charged with having an assault weapon?

or does someone still run the risk of being arrested by having this set up?
saying it complies with all other penal code requirements

You can be arrested and charged with just about anything regardless of its underlying legality. What this shows is that a DA with a determined expert and backing couldn't meet the burden of showing that a U-15 OLL otherwise legally configured is an AW. Said differently - it is near impossible to get a conviction based on an OLL and U-15. That's aided by being able to make a dismissal in this case available to anyone who gets charged. Not only are the facts on our side but another DA, backed by DOJ BoF couldn't make a case.

I need to check into it, but I'm hoping to post a copy of the dismissal and other documents for anyone who gets an uneducated LEO or DA.

-Gene

Bad Voodoo
12-21-2008, 11:02 AM
Thank you for all your support and guidance in having the case dismissed. Your the best. I want to thank Bill Wiese who recommended TMLLP C. D. Michell who put me in touch with Don Kilmer ( who defended me), Ivanimal (monitor), Gene Hoffman (Chairman, The Calguns Foundation), Wes Morris ( Ten Percent Guns), Ron Babcock ( Pres. Grassroots NRA Vallejo), Hector Garcia ( CWS ), Russ & Sally Nordyke ( T.S. Gun Shows) Joe Gun Guy & the Madison Society, my brother Mike (Public Defender City of brotherly love), Free and Accepted Masons of California, Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, the Law Enforcement Community at large, and many many others who supported me from Calguns. The fight is not completely over and I have the utmost confidence that Don Kilmer will obtain the release of the 47 SLR's, 5 complete upper assemblies, computer, ATF-A&D books, parts kits, bullet buttons, u-15 stock's, cash and etc.
My wife and I have always checked with Calif. D.O.J bureau of firearms for a straight answer concerning the legalities of firearms, from the Fab-Ten (CMS engine Service Co.)(mag well sealed SLR), Vulcan V15 (Mag epoxied and pinned) to firearms not on the assault weapons list. When I asked a Calif. DOJ bureau of firearms expert (Iggy) at the Vallejo Gun Show about the legalities of the U-15 stock (which wasn't even displayed, I pulled it out from a bin to show him and then put it away) he answered I have no opinion it is up to the 50 DA's and then several days later sends an undercover agent in to purchase the U-15 stock on a lower half, then 10 minutes later brings a swat team to raid my house knowing my wife was recovering from open heart surgery is unfathomable.
John Contos

Merry Christmas, John! :D

Ford8N
12-21-2008, 11:29 AM
Before you condemn anybody in the firearm L.E. community, consider the possibility that they are charged with enforcing downright stupid, ambiguous, non-objective laws. The ASW mess in California is properly blamed on Sacramento.

The cowards we elected who passed (and/or vote for) these laws wouldn't know a machine gun from a BB gun. They just pass unenforceable irrational laws, then dump the whole mess on the other two branches of government (courts and police), then pat themselves on the back for making the world safe for flowers and puppy dogs.

If they had any guts, they would get on with trying to outlaw/confiscate ALL guns, instead of this incremental approach. I just want the cowards to volunteer to lead the troops going door to door in their own political districts for the purpose of collecting the guns. Hopefully they will wear big name tags that also show how they voted. [I'm not holding my breath.]



I agree that the blame for the passing of the AW laws rest with Sacramento, BUT, I seem to remember high ranking members of the Law Enforcement community testified in favor of those laws. Now I realize that the logical, thinking cops did not support the AW laws but ,those who matter, did. I personally spoke to my Assemblyman at the county fair to tell him my thoughts on the pending AW legislation at that time. He said that, to paraphrase, "Law Enforcement told him these types of weapons are favored by 'The Gangs'." So he was going to vote in favor of restricting them because "Law Enforcement" wanted them off the streets. We agreed to disagree. I hope this doesn't come off as anti-LEO but most of the rulers in Sacramento, like you said, don't know the difference between a BB gun and a M2 50 cal. So they look for so called gun experts, Law Enforcement, for advice. And Law Enforcement, those who matter, told them to ban them. Now we are stuck with a mess.

hoffmang
12-21-2008, 1:00 PM
Don,
After reading about some of Iggys testimony, I can't agree. His testimony about the alleged assault weapons at another show was IMHO stupid and silly.

The fundamental issue about Iggy is really more about whose opinion he was tasked with attempting to enforce. He's amusing (:iggy:) and I've heard him attempt to manufacture evidence at least once before (video camera and supposed full auto firearm at a local range...) but on the AW mess it's not clear to me that he created the orders instead of just following them.

He's the former Special Agent at BoF. I'm more interested in the opinion makers that might still be there...

-Gene

Tony Sopranno
12-24-2008, 9:04 AM
Yes. If ordered to "take a hill" occupied by people who are not breaking the law, I DO want them to be passive and refuse an unlawful order.

If the "child" is in no real danger, I DO want them to be passive and refuse an unlawful order. The kid- (or more accurately parenting-) cops are the only ones CLOSE to the various drug- and gun-cops in terms of the miscarriages of justice they regularly inflict on good and decent people.

There ought to be some kind of standard legal recourse to award punitive compensation for those people targeted by illegal and unlawful home invasions. This swat team stuff is out of control, and it's a step-child of the "drug wars" which is no more about "drugs" than is is about illegal cheese importation.

The "drug wars" have turned out to be in essence class warfare, since the big-boys rarely get caught in such swat team drug sweeps. Until that is recognized as such, police home invasions, done with absolute impunity, will go on unabated, with relatively innocent people being the victims (or scapegoats) of an overzealous -- and uninformed -- ATF, FBI, and police bureaucracy.

Certainly, illegal drug use should be controlled in some way, but the home invasion tactics used for this and for other ATF/FBI/police activities has caused irreparable harm to people who were trying to obey the law, or who happened to be near-by when a law was being broken.

Property and gun seizures and the blatant overuse of police authority in "drug war" style tactics go hand in hand. The two together need to be handled as one distinct kind of misuse of local and federal police powers.

Utha Schleigle
12-24-2008, 10:50 AM
Any one have a picture of an U-15 STOCK.

This is a great day. What legal planns are there for counter suits and the denile of civil rights and legal lawfull property.

hoffmang
12-24-2008, 11:00 AM
http://www.californiarifles.com/images/riflesthumb.jpg

From California Rifles (http://www.californiarifles.com/) and Calguns.net forum member Grant Early.

-Gene

DVSmith
12-24-2008, 11:23 AM
Not to be a wet blanket, but isn't this a soft victory in that the DA dropped charges. It isn't like there is a ruling here. Just the absence of one. Couldn't the same attempt to prosecute be made at another time in another jurisdiction or even the same jurisdiction if the DA felt they did in fact have enough evidence?

artherd
12-24-2008, 11:26 AM
This went far enough - and was bad enough for the DA - pretrial, that it will be an effective deterrent in this county and others.

But no it's not as good as binding case law (we'd have to loose at trial, then win on appeal.)

hoffmang
12-24-2008, 11:42 AM
Not to be a wet blanket, but isn't this a soft victory in that the DA dropped charges. It isn't like there is a ruling here. Just the absence of one. Couldn't the same attempt to prosecute be made at another time in another jurisdiction or even the same jurisdiction if the DA felt they did in fact have enough evidence?

It's hard to create binding precedent when you're doing something so obviously legal that charging against it can't get to trial.

It's not binding precedent but what do you think will happen to the next DA presented a U-15 stock and a copy of the dismissal?

-Gene

DVSmith
12-24-2008, 11:50 AM
It's hard to create binding precedent when you're doing something so obviously legal that charging against it can't get to trial.

It's not binding precedent but what do you think will happen to the next DA presented a U-15 stock and a copy of the dismissal?

-Gene

I realize your first point, and your second question is exactly what I was thinking. In some instance another DA is going to think the first DA caved too easily and charge forward. I certainly expect you are more right than the scenario I am thinking about.

A follow on action for some sort of unlawful prosecution would seem reasonable to me if that were possible. Otherwise the door is left open for continued harassment of OLL owners (and potentially any gun owner).

But I am not a lawyer and really don't know much about how precedent is created. Thanks for the analysis Gene.

hoffmang
12-24-2008, 1:25 PM
I realize your first point, and your second question is exactly what I was thinking. In some instance another DA is going to think the first DA caved too easily and charge forward. I certainly expect you are more right than the scenario I am thinking about.


It's hard to call a stock without a hole in it a thumbhole stock. The expert's "theory" was that if you could wrap a thumb around the stock it was a thumbhole stock - which flatly contradicts the 2000 rulemaking where that definition was specifically rejected.

As we've hinted, this case is probably not over.

-Gene

DVSmith
12-24-2008, 1:34 PM
As we've hinted, this case is probably not over.


Awesome if that is the case! Again, thanks as always for helping educate us!

artherd
12-24-2008, 2:03 PM
I realize your first point, and your second question is exactly what I was thinking. In some instance another DA is going to think the first DA caved too easily and charge forward.

Yeah, we're working to de-motivate them from doing that...

A follow on action for some sort of unlawful prosecution would seem reasonable to me if that were possible. Otherwise the door is left open for continued harassment of OLL owners (and potentially any gun owner).

Stay tuned to this station, we're not done.

Utha Schleigle
12-24-2008, 7:49 PM
Thank You for the pictures.

The stock mounts and has the same shape of a monte carlow stock. It is an exstention of the stock and not a pistol grip or thumbhole through the stock body. Your hand gripping the U-15 stock would be in the same position as a standard straight back stock like a 1903-A3.

dfletcher
12-24-2008, 8:30 PM
Glad everything went well. Just realized I was at the show and listened to the interaction between Iggy and the FFL, posted it here in part. Really, such a cowardly dink for going after a legit seller in an open environment. If someone in that position really wants to make a difference, it's not at a gun show open to the paying public. What he did is the equivilent of hunting on fenced in land.

I think most folks know the FFL by sight. I don't know when the next Cow Palce or Vallejo show takes place but I'm certaily going to find something that goes "bang" to buy at his table.

hoffmang
12-24-2008, 8:45 PM
I think most folks know the FFL by sight. I don't know when the next Cow Palce or Vallejo show takes place but I'm certaily going to find something that goes "bang" to buy at his table.

Please do. John has been very good to our cause at real personal cost to himself.

-Gene

BigDogatPlay
12-28-2008, 1:25 PM
Is former SA Chinn still trying to muddle through his probationary period with the SFPD?

And the other question, that inquiring minds want to know, is did this case have something to do with his exit from DoJ? Given the dismissal and as much time / resources as DoJ had to have put into it, losing in that manner had to be bitter for the bosses.

hoffmang
12-28-2008, 5:50 PM
Is former SA Chinn still trying to muddle through his probationary period with the SFPD?
I would expect that he's through that at SFPD. Some on here would know for sure.

And the other question, that inquiring minds want to know, is did this case have something to do with his exit from DoJ? Given the dismissal and as much time / resources as DoJ had to have put into it, losing in that manner had to be bitter for the bosses.
No idea and I don't want to speculate on something that important absent actual knowledge. I do expect that it's his last official activity at BoF.

-Gene

nooner
01-03-2009, 7:50 PM
Sir,

The "I was just following orders" defense didn't work at Nuremberg, and IMHO is equally invalid anywhere else.

This mess will stop when "rank and file" LEOs of all stripes stand up and say something to the effect of "I must respectfully decline to obey what I believe to be an illegal order."



Yes. If ordered to "take a hill" occupied by people who are not breaking the law, I DO want them to be passive and refuse an unlawful order.

If the "child" is in no real danger, I DO want them to be passive and refuse an unlawful order. The kid- (or more accurately parenting-) cops are the only ones CLOSE to the various drug- and gun-cops in terms of the miscarriages of justice they regularly inflict on good and decent people.

Catching the (really) bad guys is what they're charged (and paid) to do, and every minute they spend harassing a good person in the process of enforcing a stupid, improper law is nothing more or less than dereliction of duty. Further, I consider them morally culpable when these choices leave a REAL criminal on the street harm the law-abiding.

We have separation of powers in this nation for a reason. It really doesn't matter how out of line the legislature gets, if the executive refuses to enforce it then no harm can possibly be done. This is basic 9th-grade civics.

Further, let's face it: It's easy to go in all ninja'd up when you know the man on the other side of the door you're kicking in isn't going to shoot you. Most of them would RATHER go after "low hanging fruit" which leaves the REAL criminals free to go about their heinous business.

I am not anti-LEO, the fact is that a majority of my closest friends are LEOs of one sort or another, and every one of them have suffered some career damage because they put their conscience ahead of their wallet.

That they're not rendered unnoticeable because they're surrounded by hundreds or thousands of their peers is the biggest problem we have.

Yes - blame the legislators for passing stupid laws, but don't excuse the executors for blindly (or in truth, RABIDLY) enforcing them.

Don't pee on my head and tell me it's raining, nor ask me to accept jack-boot behavior from those sworn to "protect and serve."

Respectfully,

DD

Beautiful, I couldn't have said it better myself!

Is it reasonable to expect every LEO to resign from their jobs, and forfeit their pensions and jobs when the legislature passes dumb laws?YES! YES! YES! If they don't they are automaton JBT's. They made that choice when they chose their profession. Only with unquestioned and blind compliance by LE can liberties be violated by the government since they are its agents.

All I want to know is when the FBI is going to break down the door of this iggy tool at 3am, shove 30 SMG's in his face, throw him against a wall with a few kicks and elbows thrown in, and drag him off to jail in his underwear?

strrizi
01-04-2009, 12:07 AM
:jump: and :cheers2:

daskraut
01-12-2009, 5:30 PM
$20.00 sent, well done!

ARBITER
03-17-2009, 4:05 PM
The Calguns Foundation Announces Successful Defense
of John Contos of Sacramento-Based Sonoma Firearms


Case based on the incorrect theory that U-15 Stocks are
“thumbhole” stocks (and/or constitute a pistol grip) is dismissed.


Improper prosecution brought by California Department of Justice
Bureau of Firearms as retribution and regulatory over-reach.


December 18, 2008
After having my case dismissed Dec. 18,2009. The Superior Court OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA Ordered any and all law enforcement agencies holding the property of J. Contos to return said property to J. Contos (or his agent) forthwith, including but not limited to all property listed on the six (6) page Department of Justice Property receipt attached to this order as Exhibit A. the Ca. DOJ Bureau of Firearms would not release the property unless I applied for a background check $20, sent Dec.4, 2009 known as a LEGR (Law Enforcement Gun Release). I already have a COE ( Certificate Of Eligibility) from the CA. DOJ good for one year? Did the CA. DOJ Bureau of firearms violate my civil rights? My diligent and industrious Attorney Don Kilmer is making arrangement for the return of my property. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/smilies/smile.gif

(CALGUNS.NET) - Redwood City, CA – The Calguns Foundation (CGF) announces that it has again successfully defended an innocent person charged with violating California’s complex and overbearing firearms laws. The Solano County District Attorney’s office dismissed all charges in an Assault Weapon-related case in People v. Contos. John Contos, the proprietor of Sonoma Firearms, was charged based upon the theory that the California Rifles’ brand “U-15” stock constituted a thumbhole stock (or was in fact a pistol grip) - and was thus a feature triggering Assault Weapon status under California law.


Background: In June 2007, Mr. Contos was contacted by Supervisory Special Agent Ignatius Chinn of the California Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms in relation to sales of off-list lower receivers for California-legal rifles. According to California law, the serialized “lower receivers” of rifles or pistols that might be considered “Assault Weapons” – and which are not specified by make and model – cannot be considered “Assault Weapons” unless they are specifically listed in California “Assault Weapons” law by make and model. Receivers not listed by make and model are known as “off-list”, and are perfectly legal to sell and possess.

However, even though these receivers are perfectly legal, it is still possible to create an illegal assault weapon by putting the wrong “accessories” on one of these receivers. One such accessory, which is prohibited, except under certain circumstances, is the “thumbhole stock.”

At the Solano County Gun Show in July 2007, Agent Chinn observed that Mr. Contos was selling off-list lower receivers configured with U-15 “butt stocks.” Agent Chinn claimed such stocks were “thumbhole stocks” that could make these receivers into “Assault Weapons” by having certain feature configurations that are prohibited. As there is actually no “hole” in a U-15 stock, this position was at best specious. Later that summer, Agent Chinn obtained and served a warrant based on the “thumbhole stock” theory and seized numerous firearms - including handguns and various rifles having no relationship to this dispute.


The Case: The Calguns Foundation retained the Law Offices of Don Kilmer to defend Mr. Contos. After passage of many months and no prosecution was forthcoming, Mr. Kilmer began the civil process of demanding the return of Mr. Contos’ property. After being stonewalled by the Bureau of Firearms, Mr. Kilmer filed a Tort Claims Act claim for the return of all property as well as compensation for business interruption. Just as the window for a response to the Tort Claims Act claim was to expire, the Bureau of Firearms persuaded a Solano County District Attorney to bring criminal charges (in June 2008), claiming that Mr. Contos was guilty of offering to sell illegal Assault Weapons.

After reviewing the proposed testimony of the State’s expert (Agent Chinn) the Solano County DA had the courage to admit that he could not meet the burden of proving that a U-15-equipped rifle or receiver was an Assault Weapon. With the case’s dismissal, Mr. Contos looks forward to the prompt return of his property. The Foundation was prepared, if necessary, to secure expert testimony from topologists (mathematicians specializing in the fields of surfaces and shapes) relating to the design of the U-15 stock and its not possessing a “thumbhole”.

The Calguns Foundation remains concerned the Bureau of Firearms has shown a pattern of using the criminal courts to extract retribution against adversaries and quash dissent about their overbroad view of the law. Bureau of Firearms has - on multiple occasions - instigated criminal charges as it became clear that they would be required to return property by civil action. Additionally, the Bureau of Firearms continues to attempt to use the criminal courts to expand the regulatory reach of the Assault Weapon laws. This is contrary to California law. This pattern and practice of charging citizens with a crimes for the purpose of exploring the regulatory boundaries of a fundamental right are extremely troubling and may require redress.

CGF offers its congratulations and thanks to John Contos for his support and patience during this arduous process. Mr. Contos has been a strong personal supporter of the Calguns community, even as this process has exacted real costs to him. Thanks also to The Law Offices of Don Kilmer for their excellent work on this case to date.

Also, CGF offers its congratulations to Grant Early, inventor of the California Rifles U-15 stock, upon having it clearly deemed to be neither a thumbhole stock nor a pistol grip.

Please consider a donation to offset the legal fees and other costs that The Calguns Foundation bore in this case - and which it continues to bear in order to defend other cases. Your donations are likely to be tax deductible, as The Calguns Foundation expects to be obtaining 501(c)(3) tax-deductible status. You can donate (at http://calgunsfoundation.org/main/index.php/donate) via check, credit card, homebanking payments, and Paypal.

The Calguns Foundation expects to see this case through to a final and satisfactory conclusion for both Mr. Contos and the California sport shooting community.


Gene Hoffman, Jr.
Chairman, The Calguns Foundation



("Calguns.net", all associated variants and logos are © Copyrights
and Trademarks of Calguns.net. 2008, All Rights Reserved.)

( "The Calguns Foundation", "calgunsfoundation.org", all associated
variants and logos are © Copyright and Trademarks of The Calguns
Foundation. 2008, All Rights Reserved. )
1 2 3

elrcastor
03-17-2009, 5:52 PM
:jump::party::punk:

:68::bofud:

KenV
03-18-2009, 7:51 PM
OutSTANDing!

xx91x
06-03-2009, 5:28 PM
So glad to see this!
Donation incoming.

NotEnoughGuns
07-25-2009, 2:48 PM
Agent Chinn knowingly committed a false arrest, and did so under color of authority. Immediate termination and prosecution is in order. Nothing less is acceptable. For that effort I would gladly contribute.

Iggy/DAs should be charged with something. 4th amendment comes to mind.

hoffmang
07-25-2009, 4:54 PM
Zombie thread! There are certainly some interesting angles on this case. The big question will be whether they are really worth pursuing.

-Gene

Gryff
07-25-2009, 7:27 PM
Iggy is such a monumental fool. I'm surprised he doesn't stab himself to death putting on his badge every day.

rustycase
08-07-2009, 8:02 PM
When can we send the people home without pay ?

Calif Mini
08-30-2009, 7:13 AM
No need to pay for "experts". I just showed my wife a U-15 stock and she said, "so where is the hole?". :)


The hole has a name..........right?? Chinn ?

caoboy
10-16-2009, 12:08 AM
Ignatius Chinn

Necropost or not, that's the guy you should look for then.

Why not search for him? He's probably got a picture online somewhere.

oaklander
10-16-2009, 12:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j71VD4aiFg

Ignatius Chinn

Necropost or not, that's the guy you should look for then.

Why not search for him? He's probably got a picture online somewhere.

Aptos
10-22-2009, 12:21 AM
How did Chinn argue that that was a thumb-hole stock with a straight face?

You don't need a degree or be an expert to see that there is no hole.

What a jerk off for causing so much distress.

Kid Stanislaus
11-20-2009, 10:16 PM
What a jerk off for causing so much distress.

He was probably captain of the jerk-off team at his fraternity in college!!

Purple K
11-20-2009, 10:52 PM
Iggy is no longer with DOJ, however, he was lurking about at the last Vallejo gun show.....

bakokid
11-23-2009, 8:36 AM
congrats...love to hear about the wins.
to make DOJ and people like chinn think twice before trampling our rights, u guys should go the extra step and sue, u should sue the dept, the agent and the people who trained the agent. that will help offset the costs, or atleast if unsuccessful waste their time and money like they did to Mr. Contos.
if people and organizations like cgn start hitting the pockets of the people doing the dirty work of the anti-gunners they would have less people willing to do that dirty work.

and if the money from a law suit wasnt needed or wanted it would be a big FU to those A-holes if used for donations and gun give aways. :rockon:

bwiese
11-23-2009, 11:06 AM
Bakokid,

While we do have a lot of "pattern & practice" with DOJ BoF on certain employees, governments & employees are not as easy to sue as you think. It takes repeated situations with lotsa documentation to trigger threshold, and having incorporated RBKA will help further. We don't need to waste money tilting at windmills.

fastkevin
08-03-2010, 2:06 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j71VD4aiFg

The leftists have thoroughly (again) convinced the public that people shouldn't be held accountable for their OWN actions...instead blaming the 'evil' manufacturers. The lack of common sense in their argument is staggering, but the scariest part of it is that people buy into it.
I also feel strongly about going after the individuals in this case in Civil Court. They've got to be held personally responsible for their actions, and IMO not until then will they have the motivation to act responsibly, and leave their personal feelings at the door. Obviously this ***** has it in for law-abiding gun owners, and therefore needs to be taught a lesson.
IIRC, the defense lawyer stated himself in a post on here that he's witnessed 'Chinn' personally 'manufacturing' evidence. I'm not a lawyer, but I at least know that right there is several steps on the ladder ABOVE negligence. That's criminal! Dude has to pay!
BTW...who the heck names their kid 'Ignacius'? That guy was born 5 cards short of a full deck.

ke6guj
06-13-2014, 8:27 AM
spammer, reported

QuarterBoreGunner
06-13-2014, 8:34 AM
spammer, reported

That was weird. Nercothread zombie post. I'm going to go ahead and close this.