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View Full Version : Is it "legal" to remove your mag at the range to load it?


missiontrails
12-18-2008, 10:21 AM
Some of my buddies are under the impression that even if your weapon is equipped with a bullet button, you must top load the weapon and not remove the 10 round mag.

DedEye
12-18-2008, 10:24 AM
What do you think?

Please, no one else respond with a yes or no answer, he needs to do the critical thinking on this one and come to the realization of WHY he believes what he does.

If you teach a man to fish...

ocabj
12-18-2008, 10:24 AM
If the range has a rule regarding how the AR is loaded, then you'd have to abide by it if you want to use that establishment.

If you don't like the rule, then you can always visit another range that doesn't have such a rule.

skale240
12-18-2008, 10:24 AM
Some of my buddies are under the impression that even if your weapon is equipped with a bullet button, you must top load the weapon and not remove the 10 round mag.


If you have a bullet button ok to drop the mag with a tool.

Peashooter
12-18-2008, 10:25 AM
It does not meet the requirements of being readily detachable.
You can have an "Attachable" magazine.
The law states "Readily detachable without the use of a tool"

cleanguy46
12-18-2008, 10:25 AM
As long as there is a bullet button in place you can freely drop your mags with a tool or round of ammo to reload.

sorensen440
12-18-2008, 10:27 AM
Some of my buddies are under the impression that even if your weapon is equipped with a bullet button, you must top load the weapon and not remove the 10 round mag.

Your buddy is wrong
with a bullet button you can drop the mag
with a prince 50 you can't

cleanguy46
12-18-2008, 10:28 AM
What do you think?

Please, no one else respond with a yes or no answer, he needs to do the critical thinking on this one and come to the realization of WHY he believes what he does.

If you teach a man to fish...
Good point! He needs to do a little more research rather then going off some B.S. info from his buddies.

DedEye
12-18-2008, 10:32 AM
Good point! He needs to do a little more research rather then going off some B.S. info from his buddies.

Too late now :mad:.

BroncoBob
12-18-2008, 10:32 AM
Here use this link, it will answer your question.

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf

skale240
12-18-2008, 10:35 AM
sorry i posted the answer too...but, Mission spend a little bit more time here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=56818

Even tell your buddies to come on out to the site and read read read!!!

akjunkie
12-18-2008, 10:41 AM
Some of my buddies are under the impression that even if your weapon is equipped with a bullet button, you must top load the weapon and not remove the 10 round mag.

Try using the SEARCH funciton.

Its there for a reason.

missiontrails
12-18-2008, 10:43 AM
I know the answer to this, I posted this so they can read this post, and take more than just my word for this. I just wanted you all to chime in...

DedEye
12-18-2008, 10:57 AM
I know the answer to this, I posted this so they can read this post, and take more than just my word for this. I just wanted you all to chime in...

You know the answer, but do you know WHY? If you can't articulate to them the why, then you have information but not knowledge.

Jicko
12-18-2008, 11:18 AM
I know the answer to this, I posted this so they can read this post, and take more than just my word for this. I just wanted you all to chime in...

Go follow the links in the "Bullet button" section of the NEWBIE thread!!!!
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=56818

freshdriver
12-18-2008, 11:34 AM
They should just sticky this thread

CHS
12-18-2008, 11:49 AM
You know the answer, but do you know WHY? If you can't articulate to them the why, then you have information but not knowledge.

+10000000000000

cleanguy46
12-18-2008, 1:18 PM
I know the answer to this, I posted this so they can read this post, and take more than just my word for this. I just wanted you all to chime in...

:banghead: I have a headache now......Damn!

Desert_AIP
12-18-2008, 1:23 PM
Here use this link, it will answer your question.

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf

That, sir, is a golden piece of documentation.
I haven't seen it before.
Thank you :D

anhero
12-18-2008, 1:31 PM
very nice documentation. i've printed it out and put a copy of it with my oll

DannyT
12-18-2008, 1:45 PM
Do your buddies actually own ARs?
If so I can't see how someone would buy such a weapon without knowing the legality of it. It's your/their responsibility to know the law so you don't end up on the wrong side of it.

Josh3239
12-18-2008, 1:53 PM
Do your buddies actually own ARs?
If so I can't see how someone would buy such a weapon without knowing the legality of it. It's your/their responsibility to know the law so you don't end up on the wrong side of it.

It really is amazing the amount of people both on this board and off that own a firearm without ever learning the law or operating the firearm.

Whenever someone asks this question I cannot help but think, why else would the bullet button be created? What good is a lock that is specifically made to drop the mag with a tool, if it was never legal in this state?

live2offroad
12-18-2008, 2:11 PM
If you have a bullet button ok to drop the mag with a tool.

This is NOT true.. (edit: As I read the law If the mag is out and you have evil features on the rifle you are in violation.)
Do what ever the hell you want..
-Peter

1BigPea
12-18-2008, 2:13 PM
This is NOT true.. If the mag is out and you have evil features on the rifle you are in violation.
-Peter

Oh boy...

Here we go....

nobs11
12-18-2008, 2:15 PM
This is NOT true.. If the mag is out and you have evil features on the rifle you are in violation.
-Peter

Come on. This has been discussed so many times.

Yes, you are in violation if you do that. You will get arrested on the spot and will get send to Gitmo and executed in 2 weeks without trial.

Stop spreading incorrect information. There is a guy almost every week who does that. I'll get the popcorn.

live2offroad
12-18-2008, 2:15 PM
The idea is simple, and..

and you know what? Screw it.. Do what ever the hell you want, "interpret" the law as you see fit.. what do I care?

1BigPea
12-18-2008, 2:18 PM
The idea is simple, and..

and you know what? Screw it.. Do what ever the hell you want, "interpret" the law as you see fit.. what do I care?


You can have an "Attachable" magazine.

What do you think the BB is for then? So you can top load?

DannyT
12-18-2008, 2:18 PM
This is NOT true.. If the mag is out and you have evil features on the rifle you are in violation.
-Peter

LOL! In violation of what??!! The key word is DETACHABLE not DETACHED.

With a BB it's only in violation if he popped in a mag capable of holding MORE than 10 rounds.

No wonder LE has trouble understanding the legality of these weapons when some of the owners don't even know. :mad:

DannyT
12-18-2008, 2:21 PM
The idea is simple, and..

and you know what? Screw it.. Do what ever the hell you want, "interpret" the law as you see fit.. what do I care?

It really isn't about anyone's "interpretation" of the law.

The law on this is very clear.

CSDGuy
12-18-2008, 2:21 PM
This is NOT true.. If the mag is out and you have evil features on the rifle you are in violation.
-Peter
How so? If the magazine is out (and Lower is BB equipped) and you have all the "evil" features on the rifle, how does that change the ability of that rifle to be able to detach the magazine without the use of a tool?

live2offroad
12-18-2008, 2:22 PM
LOL! In violation of what??!! The key word is DETACHABLE not DETACHED.

With a BB it's only in violation if he popped in a mag capable of holding MORE than 10 rounds.

No wonder LE has trouble understanding the legality of these weapons when some of the owners don't even know. :mad:

See my edited posts.. Frankly I'm sorry I even spoke up, It's not like I give a damn.. I will continue to operate in what I view as the best, safest, and most legal fashion I can.. You do the same.. I'm sorry if in my desire to keep AR's in our hands and "us" out of trouble I've become overly cautious..

aplinker
12-18-2008, 2:31 PM
See my edited posts.. Frankly I'm sorry I even spoke up, It's not like I give a damn.. I will continue to operate in what I view as the best, safest, and most legal fashion I can.. You do the same.. I'm sorry if in my desire to keep AR's in our hands and "us" out of trouble I've become overly cautious..

:confused:

No, please, if you think somehow we're confused feel free to educate us. I'm absolutely certain in my understanding of the law.

Please show to me the logic of law of how detaching a magazine from a bullet-button equipped rifle is illegal.

1BigPea
12-18-2008, 2:33 PM
See my edited posts.. Frankly I'm sorry I even spoke up, It's not like I give a damn.. I will continue to operate in what I view as the best, safest, and most legal fashion I can.. You do the same.. I'm sorry if in my desire to keep AR's in our hands and "us" out of trouble I've become overly cautious..

Just make sure you're not spreading the word that it is ILLEGAL to drop your magazine with a BB, you just PREFER not to. It is NOT illegal and that is very clear the way the law is written. There is no so called "grey area" with this.

Cautious is good, correct info and proper education is best.

Mark One
12-18-2008, 2:49 PM
That guy is getting a little worked up...

People just corrected your information, it is not like they are being rude to you.

WokMaster1
12-18-2008, 3:08 PM
What do you think?

Please, no one else respond with a yes or no answer, he needs to do the critical thinking on this one and come to the realization of WHY he believes what he does.

If you teach a man to fish...

C'mon. You are in the retail business. You should give the correct answer with a smile(s) X 123 times a day.:D

97F1504RAD
12-18-2008, 3:12 PM
Well after reading all the great info on this site over the last few weeks. And please correct me if I am wrong, but it is perfectly legal to drop the mag on a bullet button equipped (using round of ammo or other Tool) rifle. And to then load the magazine and stick it back in and shoot as long as said magazine is not larger than 10 round capacity. If you stick a magazine in that holds more than 10 rounds then it is illegal.

Did that about cover it?

1BigPea
12-18-2008, 3:15 PM
Well after reading all the great info on this site over the last few weeks. And please correct me if I am wrong, but it is perfectly legal to drop the mag on a bullet button equipped (using round of ammo or other Tool) rifle. And to then load the magazine and stick it back in and shoot as long as said magazine is not larger than 10 round capacity. If you stick a magazine in that holds more than 10 rounds then it is illegal.

Did that about cover it?

Yes, you are correct, the magazine is fixed with the BB. You can remove the magazine with a "tool". That is what the law tells you to do. Yes no magazines over 10 rounds.

Read this too...

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sac...2008-11-18.pdf

DedEye
12-18-2008, 3:15 PM
C'mon. You are in the retail business. You should give the correct answer with a smile(s) X 123 times a day.:D

My answer here is not on behalf of Bullseye :p.

Just make sure you're not spreading the word that it is ILLEGAL to drop your magazine with a BB, you just PREFER not to. It is NOT illegal and that is very clear the way the law is written. There is no so called "grey area" with this.

Cautious is good, correct info and proper education is best.

Agreed. I'm fine with you wanting to play it safe, but don't tell others that they're breaking the law when they aren't.

BTW, did you ever see that lovely news report with Iggy where he demonstrated the legal manner of using the Bullet Button :p?

missiontrails
12-18-2008, 3:23 PM
Yes, my buddies own AR's, just built them. They are gun owners galore, just new to black rifle ownership. I explained to them that the bullet button and variants were designed for that purpose, and that the use of a "tool" was the legal key to removing mags at the range or anywhere else.

sorensen440
12-18-2008, 3:24 PM
This is NOT true.. (edit: As I read the law If the mag is out and you have evil features on the rifle you are in violation.)
Do what ever the hell you want..
-Peter

You need to go read the law again and stop giving out bad advice till you do

97F1504RAD
12-18-2008, 3:27 PM
Yes, you are correct, the magazine is fixed with the BB. You can remove the magazine with a "tool". That is what the law tells you to do. Yes no magazines over 10 rounds.

Read this too...

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sac...2008-11-18.pdf

Woohoo I got something right. :D

The link you made is not working now but i think that is the Sac Sheriff memo and if so I saved a copy of it. Great info to have.

1BigPea
12-18-2008, 3:32 PM
Woohoo I got something right. :D

The link you made is not working now but i think that is the Sac Sheriff memo and if so I saved a copy of it. Great info to have.

Oh..ok...here's the link to the thread if you need it. ;)

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=134494

And the correct link for anyone who might not have it.

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf

_Odin_
12-18-2008, 3:36 PM
I think it's the meaning of the word "detachable" which confuses most folks: in everyday-speech "detachable" means something that can be removed - almost synonyms with "removable". So if it's said you can't have a "detachable" magazine, some folks take that to mean "the magazine cannot be removed".

HOWEVER, the CA DOJ themselves define a detachable magazine as a mag that can be readily removed without the use of a tool. Hence, the contra positive of this statement would be that if you DO need a tool, than the magazine is NOT detachable.

So if you remove the mag with a tool (tip of a bullet, for example) you are well within the letter of the law.

Arkalius
12-18-2008, 3:54 PM
Actually it's not the meaning of the word that confuses people I don't think... it's a combination of getting hung up on the wording, and the fact that dropping a mag with a prince50 maglock was a sure sign of an illegally configured AW.

The law prohibits rifles capable of accepting a detachable magazine. It later defines the legal meaning of detachable as being removable without a tool. It says nothing about actually detaching the magazine from the gun using such a tool, or that the magazine must remain attached at all times.

With the prince 50 mag lock kit, the only way to remove the magazine was to loosen the set screw. Once you do this, the button can be pressed with your finger, which means you have just made your magazine "detachable" by the legal definition, and your rifle becomes an AW. So it is not the act of removing the mag when you use a prince 50 lock, it's what you have to do to make it removable in the first place that causes a violation of the law.

The law places a restriction only on the manner by which the magazine can be removed, not whether or not it can.

ohsmily
12-18-2008, 4:04 PM
This is NOT true.. (edit: As I read the law If the mag is out and you have evil features on the rifle you are in violation.)
Do what ever the hell you want..
-Peter


The idea is simple, and..

and you know what? Screw it.. Do what ever the hell you want, "interpret" the law as you see fit.. what do I care?


See my edited posts.. Frankly I'm sorry I even spoke up, It's not like I give a damn.. I will continue to operate in what I view as the best, safest, and most legal fashion I can.. You do the same.. I'm sorry if in my desire to keep AR's in our hands and "us" out of trouble I've become overly cautious..


Why are you even here? You obviously have NOT bothered reading the DEFINITION of "detachable magazine" as codified by law. You are NOT doing ANYTHING to "keep ARs in our hands and 'us' out of trouble." You are working to spread incorrect information.

If you feel the need to take the wrong position in the future, at least please explain to the poor sucker who is listening to you that it is your OPINION of the law, not the actual law, that you are ranting about.

Bottom line. You are wrong. There is no room for interpretation (at least under current law in CA) about whether a magazine secured with a bullet button is considered detachable or not. Removing it requires a tool --> it is not detachable.

In case you were wondering, here is the legal definition of detachable magazine: "any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool." So, ask yourself, does a rifle equipped with a bullet button (are you sure you know what the hell that is) have a detachable magazines???? ---> NO!!!

CSACANNONEER
12-18-2008, 4:07 PM
This is NOT true.. (edit: As I read the law If the mag is out and you have evil features on the rifle you are in violation.)
Do what ever the hell you want..
-Peter

I guess I'm glad you'll never be my attorney! Oh BTW, how do you read the law? Have you noticed that even Iggy (I think he still worked for DOJ at the time) and the Sac PD have stated that BBs are OK? Why would BBs even be around if it wasn't OK to drop 10 round mags? It's perfectly alright if you don't want to use a BB but, don't give bad advice. If you don't like your BB, you could always just use a Prince50 type lock or get a FAB10 or Bushmaster sealed Carbon 15. Then you would be even more legal than a legal BB equiped lower. Of course "more legal" than perfectly legal isn't going to do you any good. Is it?

Paratus et Vigilans
12-18-2008, 4:39 PM
This is NOT true.. (edit: As I read the law If the mag is out and you have evil features on the rifle you are in violation.)
Do what ever the hell you want..
-Peter

Well, hmmmm. . . .

You aren't reading the law correctly. Bottom line, if your rifle is configured such that you need a TOOL to remove a magazine from it (which is what the bullet button does when you install it in an OLL AR-15), then it no longer can accept a detachable magazine. So, even when you use a tool to drop a mag from a BB configured OLL rifle, notwithstanding that open, gaping maw of a magwell, it STILL can't accept a detachable magazine, because when you pop the next mag in there . . . oops . . . you need a TOOL to get it out. It's pretty simple, really, but it continues to confuse and confound some folks. :confused:

If you aren't comfortable with that, so be it, and top load to your heart's content, but please don't go around telling people that what they're doing is wrong when it's not. Your own personal comfort level with the law and how it is to be interpreted does not equate to what is or is not legal. :)

WokMaster1
12-18-2008, 5:32 PM
Well, hmmmm. . . .

You aren't reading the law correctly. Bottom line, if your rifle is configured such that you need a TOOL to remove a magazine from it (which is what the bullet button does when you install it in an OLL AR-15), then it no longer can accept a detachable magazine. So, even when you use a tool to drop a mag from a BB configured OLL rifle, notwithstanding that open, gaping maw of a magwell, it STILL can't accept a detachable magazine, because when you pop the next mag in there . . . oops . . . you need a TOOL to get it out. It's pretty simple, really, but it continues to confuse and confound some folks. :confused:

If you aren't comfortable with that, so be it, and top load to your heart's content, but please don't go around telling people that what they're doing is wrong when it's not. Your own personal comfort level with the law and how it is to be interpreted does not equate to what is or is not legal. :)

He can't read, period! Sad part about it is that he doesn't care.:rolleyes:

Obviously a Plant
12-18-2008, 5:46 PM
Mmmm, fishing, searching, whatever.
Give a man a fish & he will eat for a day,
Give a fish that man and he will eat for ten,
Why bother teaching a man how to fish?

Backcountry
12-18-2008, 5:59 PM
This is NOT true.. (edit: As I read the law If the mag is out and you have evil features on the rifle you are in violation.)
Do what ever the hell you want..
-Peter
Here's where it gets scary. You don't know what you don't know.

Oblivious must be nice.

BroncoBob
12-18-2008, 6:08 PM
I think it will be a while before we hear from him again......

Chunky_lover
12-18-2008, 6:19 PM
Okay 1 question, Ive been using the BB for over a year, no problems with anyone at my ranges there all familiar with it but im always confused about being able to keep a mag out legally. Quote ---So, even when you use a tool to drop a mag from a BB configured OLL rifle, notwithstanding that open, gaping maw of a magwell, it STILL can't accept a detachable magazine, because when you pop the next mag in there . . . oops . . . you need a TOOL to get it out.----

I would think a cop would see this as a rifle able to accept a detachable mag even though its not detachable once its locked in. I would like to know how many of you keep a mag out when reloading, transporting, or not using it.

If im reloading mags I will pop in a empty one or if its time to change targets I always keep an empty mag in it. I always keep an empty one in just because im confused about that part of having a rifle that can accept detachable mags.

If anything then I can say it is a sealed mag and could then top load it if a cop somehow tried to take it away. Am I just too paranoid. I cant afford a lawyer if I ever got hassled by cops. I do keep a copy of the whole write up in my bag but you never know if they would even accept it in the field.

I love the bullet button and hope it never gets written up as illegal because top loading sucks.

SuperSet
12-18-2008, 6:19 PM
I think it will be a while before we hear from him again......
You gotta hand it to the guy, he's stubborn as a mule. We had this thread already from Jul 08 and he expressed the same opinion.

Okay 1 question, Ive been using the BB for over a year, no problems with anyone at my ranges there all familiar with it but im always confused about being able to keep a mag out legally. Quote ---So, even when you use a tool to drop a mag from a BB configured OLL rifle, notwithstanding that open, gaping maw of a magwell, it STILL can't accept a detachable magazine, because when you pop the next mag in there . . . oops . . . you need a TOOL to get it out...

Chunky_lover, please re-read this thread and the flowchart. It's clear so no need to over-analyze this.

Chunky_lover
12-18-2008, 6:28 PM
You gotta hand it to the guy, he's stubborn as a mule. We had this thread already from Jul 08 and he expressed the same opinion.



Chunky_lover, please re-read this thread and the flowchart. It's clear so no need to over-analyze this.


Please dont give me a simple generic answer to my question just to up your post count. I have read that flow chart a while ago but that was done up by a member I presume which can be made to however anyone wants. I just wanted to know what other people do because I have a hard time reading lawyer talk. It goes in straight and comes out my ***. I have asked this question a long time ago in other posts and never really got a straight answer mostly answers like yours.

40caldeserteagle
12-18-2008, 6:31 PM
I would think a cop would see this as a rifle able to accept a detachable mag even though its not detachable once its locked in. I would like to know how many of you keep a mag out when reloading, transporting, or not using it.

If im reloading mags I will pop in a empty one or if its time to change targets I always keep an empty mag in it. I always keep an empty one in just because im confused about that part of having a rifle that can accept detachable mags.

What is confusing? No tool = detachable, tool = fixed. It really is that simple. The law says nothing about the ability to attach, only detach.

David F.

live2offroad
12-18-2008, 6:33 PM
I think it will be a while before we hear from him again......

Yeah like an hour and a half while I ate dinner.. Whatever..
I get it, you guys know and I don't. I am wrong.. Ok.

sorensen440
12-18-2008, 6:34 PM
Please dont give me a simple generic answer to my question just to up your post count. I have read that flow chart a while ago but that was done up by a member I presume which can be made to however anyone wants. I just wanted to know what other people do because I have a hard time reading lawyer talk. It goes in straight and comes out my ***. I have asked this question a long time ago in other posts and never really got a straight answer mostly answers like yours.

go read the flowchart again
It really cant be made more clear

Darklyte27
12-18-2008, 6:37 PM
remember, majority of the US people are dumb. because of them, there are gun laws.

Capt. Speirs
12-18-2008, 6:37 PM
Please dont give me a simple generic answer to my question just to up your post count. I have read that flow chart a while ago but that was done up by a member I presume which can be made to however anyone wants. I just wanted to know what other people do because I have a hard time reading lawyer talk. It goes in straight and comes out my ***. I have asked this question a long time ago in other posts and never really got a straight answer mostly answers like yours.

1.Go to range with empty mag in magwell, bolt back dust cover open.
2.At range remove empty mag with tool, load mag, insert mag.
3.Shoot till mag is empty.
4. Repeat step 2. till RM calls cease fire.
5.Remove mag, clear chamber, leave bolt open, lay down weapon. Yes magwell is open, oh noooo, DOJ and ATF are gonna get me, lol.

97F1504RAD
12-18-2008, 6:39 PM
remember, majority of the US people are dumb. because of them, there are gun laws.

Amen to that

Chunky_lover
12-18-2008, 6:41 PM
That seems to make sense, I was looking at my paper and also saw where I was confused I was looking at the part talking about nut bolt setups and was confused by that but now I see the fixed magazine part above it. I guess I have been reading the wrong paragraph every time I look at that sheet. Time to highlite the correct areas for future reference.

CSACANNONEER
12-18-2008, 6:47 PM
Yeah like an hour and a half while I ate dinner.. Whatever..
I get it, you guys know and I don't. I am wrong.. Ok.

It's good to see that instead of running off with your tail between your legs, you posted again! Just remember that just because it is legal to drop your mags with a BB, you can top load if you want! In some instances, it may be the wise thing to do. Personally, I don't want to be another test case. I have a MM gripped lower, a dedicated rimfire lower, a P50 on a lower, a BB on a lower and a couple of FAB10s. OK, one FAB is dedicated to a bolt action upper but my point is that, I feel less likely to be hassled by a LEO who isn't uneducated about OLLs if I'm using my FAB10 lower. So, if you feel like top loading your build, go ahead, it's not illegal for you to do so.

nobs11
12-18-2008, 6:50 PM
Yeah like an hour and a half while I ate dinner.. Whatever..
I get it, you guys know and I don't. I am wrong.. Ok.

No worries. You learned something. We all make mistakes.

live2offroad
12-18-2008, 6:59 PM
No worries. You learned something. We all make mistakes.

I do, despite my apparent "mule headed-ness".. I also see where the prevailing logic and opinion comes from on this topic. I defer to those that know better.

As for me, I choose to refrain from extracting my magazines at the range, it still seems like the simplest way to avoid confusing situations..

-Peter

DedEye
12-18-2008, 6:59 PM
That seems to make sense, I was looking at my paper and also saw where I was confused I was looking at the part talking about nut bolt setups and was confused by that but now I see the fixed magazine part above it. I guess I have been reading the wrong paragraph every time I look at that sheet. Time to highlite the correct areas for future reference.

In one of the original posts about the Bullet Button, Gene or Bill laid out a hypothetical cross exam of an expert witness on firearms and how they would respond to a bullet button in regards to attachable vs. detachable magazines. Searching should turn something up.

For CYA, it's recommended to transport your rifle with an empty 10 round mag in the well.

Blacktail 8541
12-18-2008, 7:02 PM
Have you got it yet?:90:

jacques
12-18-2008, 7:06 PM
Yeah, I was going to say, think of it in the opposite also. There is no law against an attachable mag, or an open magwell, and detachable is pretty clearly defined (use of a tool). There really is no question that being written as is was clearly to define it as such.

Hopi
12-18-2008, 7:07 PM
I'm glad we go through these little refresher courses now and again.......

Chunky_lover
12-18-2008, 7:09 PM
Then why this ---- For CYA, it's recommended to transport your rifle with an empty 10 round mag in the well.

alleyehave
12-18-2008, 7:14 PM
because I dont have enough mag pouches?

DedEye
12-18-2008, 7:26 PM
Then why this ---- For CYA, it's recommended to transport your rifle with an empty 10 round mag in the well.

For exactly what that acronym stands for - covering your *** (from an uneducated and overzealous law enforcement officer).

K57
12-18-2008, 7:28 PM
:popcorn: this is better than reality TV

alleyehave
12-18-2008, 7:50 PM
All of you guys are crazy. Why, oh why would you risk going to jail just so you can release a magazine with a silly bullet????

I detach my upper, remove my collapsible stock, remove my pistol grip. THEN TOP LOAD.

I understand that the law says this and that, but I just wanna be extra cautious. Albeit I will need to start a fund for my range fees :)

Cal45man
12-18-2008, 8:17 PM
If you have bullet button you can drop a 10rd mag with a tool.I guess it depends on what shooting range you go and their policy.If you leave the shooting range make sure you have a empty 10rd mag stuck in the rifle(semi fixed mag ) so if you get stopped by a cop you dont get harrassed for having a detatchable AW etc BS.

Chunky_lover
12-18-2008, 8:32 PM
If you have bullet button you can drop a 10rd mag with a tool.I guess it depends on what shooting range you go and their policy.If you leave the shooting range make sure you have a empty 10rd mag stuck in the rifle(semi fixed mag ) so if you get stopped by a cop you dont get harrassed for having a detatchable AW etc BS.

The only thing I hate about that is the trying to use the janky cable lock with the mag in. Its alot safer if it could go through the mag well and out the ejection port. Looks hokey going around the trigger area but thats what I do.

karleric
12-18-2008, 9:03 PM
Hmmm...if I can't drop the mag at the range, then I'm gonna need to buy a few more AR's so I can just use the ones that are still fully loaded as the others go empty...WORKS FOR ME!

My wife (the CFO) and my bank account may have something to say about it! :)

DannyT
12-18-2008, 10:04 PM
Then why this ---- For CYA, it's recommended to transport your rifle with an empty 10 round mag in the well.

Because if a sneaky LEO wants to really screw you they can slap a 20 or 30 rd mag in to the open well and you would instantly be in violation.

Someone a few weeks posted that they have 2 ARs. One with a BB and the other with MMG w/pre ban mags (20 rd I believe). If they mistakenly put the pre-ban mag in to the BB AR then they are then holding an illegal assault weapon.

ktom300
12-18-2008, 10:13 PM
The only thing I hate about that is the trying to use the janky cable lock with the mag in. Its alot safer if it could go through the mag well and out the ejection port. Looks hokey going around the trigger area but thats what I do.



How do you cable lock the rifle without being able to go through the magwell?
Does anyone use trigger locks instead?

DannyT
12-18-2008, 10:32 PM
All of you guys are crazy. Why, oh why would you risk going to jail just so you can release a magazine with a silly bullet????

I detach my upper, remove my collapsible stock, remove my pistol grip. THEN TOP LOAD.

I understand that the law says this and that, but I just wanna be extra cautious. Albeit I will need to start a fund for my range fees :)

Are you serious?
If you are indeed trying to be extra cautious then would you put a pistol grip on in the first place?

I hope you're being sarcastic.

shark92651
12-18-2008, 10:33 PM
I have read that flow chart a while ago but that was done up by a member I presume which can be made to however anyone wants.

Who cares if the flowchart was "done up by a member"!? Why are you asking those same members for advice then? It has been discussed, researched, and debated by people with far more knowledge than you will find from all the "experts" at the DOJ combined. If you don't believe the calguns flowchart because it was "done up by a member" then just read the first paragraph of this training bulletin that was written by a Detective of the Sacramento Police Department:

There has been an increase over the last two years of AR-15 & AK-47 type firearms sold in CA that at first glance appear to be an assault weapon. These firearms have a device installed called a “Bullet Button”. The device prevents the shooter from depressing the magazine release button with a finger. However, the magazine can quickly be released by using the tip of a bullet or other tool to depress the enclosed magazine release button.

Read the entire bulletin here: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf

aplinker
12-18-2008, 10:47 PM
Then why this ---- For CYA, it's recommended to transport your rifle with an empty 10 round mag in the well.

I think the best explanation for this is pretty simple.

First, it is completely legal to have an open magwell on a BB equipped rifle.

Many "incidents" involving OLLs have occurred during transport. It is substantially easier (i.e., requires fewer steps in logic) to explain how your rifle is incapable of accepting a detachable magazine if the magazine is in place.

This thread, for example, shows why. We all see now why it is legal, but it took a few posts of discussion and some "Ah-ha!"s.

Seesm
12-18-2008, 11:01 PM
That makes sense... BUT if the Leos all knew the laws that would be un-needed....

BroncoBob
12-19-2008, 5:14 AM
I do, despite my apparent "mule headed-ness".. I also see where the prevailing logic and opinion comes from on this topic. I defer to those that know better.

As for me, I choose to refrain from extracting my magazines at the range, it still seems like the simplest way to avoid confusing situations..

-Peter


Hey Pete glad to hear that. If you feel better about top loading, go and do it and enjoy shooting.

RJ Dunn
12-19-2008, 5:33 AM
:beatdeadhorse5:

Chunky_lover
12-19-2008, 6:15 AM
Who cares if the flowchart was "done up by a member"!? Why are you asking those same members for advice then? It has been discussed, researched, and debated by people with far more knowledge than you will find from all the "experts" at the DOJ combined. If you don't believe the calguns flowchart because it was "done up by a member" then just read the first paragraph of this training bulletin that was written by a Detective of the Sacramento Police Department:



Read the entire bulletin here: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf



Look, I just want the correct info with me in case I ever get hassled, the flow chart is very vague in some areas and leaves out alot of info. Its good for a quick look over but if someone really wants to screw with you thats not enough info. Even the legal 14 page sheet I have can be edited before I printed it, but thats the one I go off of because its more detailed.

Next time dont waste my time and your time with the response you left. In fact feel free to never answer any questions I post in the future.

Chunky_lover
12-19-2008, 6:54 AM
How do you cable lock the rifle without being able to go through the magwell?
Does anyone use trigger locks instead?


I may end up using a trigger lock for this, but here is my cable lock. Only reason I use the cable is when I purchased it you had to buy a new lock and I think only cable locks were approved now at time of purchase.

One bad thing is my bolt sometimes vibrates out, so I may go with the trigger lock to keep that from happening.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/mikegigabyte/Bushmaster/121908_07471.jpg


BTW I wrap the cable around 2 times, just mocked it up quickly for the pic.

The Director
12-19-2008, 7:49 AM
Look, I just want the correct info with me in case I ever get hassled, the flow chart is very vague in some areas and leaves out alot of info. Its good for a quick look over but if someone really wants to screw with you thats not enough info. Even the legal 14 page sheet I have can be edited before I printed it, but thats the one I go off of because its more detailed.

Next time dont waste my time and your time with the response you left. In fact feel free to never answer any questions I post in the future.

Very vague and leaves out a lot of info? Are we reading the same document???? You'd love it if you read it, I promise you.

The Director
12-19-2008, 7:51 AM
I may end up using a trigger lock for this, but here is my cable lock. Only reason I use the cable is when I purchased it you had to buy a new lock and I think only cable locks were approved now at time of purchase.

One bad thing is my bolt sometimes vibrates out, so I may go with the trigger lock to keep that from happening.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/mikegigabyte/Bushmaster/121908_07471.jpg


BTW I wrap the cable around 2 times, just mocked it up quickly for the pic.

Why do you feel you need a trigger lock?? Just curious.

sorensen440
12-19-2008, 8:01 AM
I may end up using a trigger lock for this, but here is my cable lock. Only reason I use the cable is when I purchased it you had to buy a new lock and I think only cable locks were approved now at time of purchase.

One bad thing is my bolt sometimes vibrates out, so I may go with the trigger lock to keep that from happening.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/mikegigabyte/Bushmaster/121908_07471.jpg


BTW I wrap the cable around 2 times, just mocked it up quickly for the pic.
Is that a 30 rnd mag ? what lower is that ?

Hopi
12-19-2008, 8:04 AM
Is that a 30 rnd mag ? what lower is that ?

Bushmaster Carbon.

sorensen440
12-19-2008, 8:05 AM
All of you guys are crazy. Why, oh why would you risk going to jail just so you can release a magazine with a silly bullet????

I detach my upper, remove my collapsible stock, remove my pistol grip. THEN TOP LOAD.

I understand that the law says this and that, but I just wanna be extra cautious. Albeit I will need to start a fund for my range fees :)

You should probably have someone hold the stock and pistol grip 50 ft away while you do this so you don't get in trouble for constructive possession as well ;):TFH:

Chunky_lover
12-19-2008, 8:07 AM
Why do you feel you need a trigger lock?? Just curious.

The gun store I bought it from made me buy one to leave the store they said it was CA law, and I think you need one for transporting it or have it in a locked case, im not really sure but just to be safe when driving around with it I use the lock my case doesnt have a way to lock it.

sorensen440
12-19-2008, 8:08 AM
The gun store I bought it from made me buy one to leave the store they said it was CA law, and I think you need one for transporting it or have it in a locked case, im not really sure but just to be safe when driving around with it I use the lock my case doesnt have a way to lock it.

There is no legal requirement to lock long guns in California they just have to be unloaded

Chunky_lover
12-19-2008, 8:11 AM
Is that a 30 rnd mag ? what lower is that ?

Its a 10/30 All legal;) And I a gutted out a carbon 15 before knowing about OLL's and buying the lowers separately, but knew about the BB's. I guess the people at the gunstore weren't too knowledgeable or didn't care.

sorensen440
12-19-2008, 8:12 AM
Its a 10/30 All legal;) And I a gutted out a carbon 15 before knowing about OLL's and buying the lowers separately, but knew about the BB's. I guess the people at the gunstore weren't too knowledgeable or didn't care.

Just checking ;)

Chunky_lover
12-19-2008, 8:15 AM
There is no legal requirement to lock long guns in California they just have to be unloaded

Well 2 different stores, 3 different long guns and they all said it was CA law and had to purchase a new lock each time to be able to leave the store with it, one store was Big 5 and the other was Discount Gun Mart. Is this a scam to sell locks or what, they both said the lock could only be 30 days old or less and proof of a receipt if I was to use my own lock. So do long guns need to be in a bag during transport, I always wonder if they would say its a concealed weapon so thats another reason I have the lock on it.

NiteQwill
12-19-2008, 8:29 AM
Well 2 different stores, 3 different long guns and they all said it was CA law and had to purchase a new lock each time to be able to leave the store with it, one store was Big 5 and the other was Discount Gun Mart. Is this a scam to sell locks or what, they both said the lock could only be 30 days old or less and proof of a receipt if I was to use my own lock. So do long guns need to be in a bag during transport, I always wonder if they would say its a concealed weapon so thats another reason I have the lock on it.

Long guns only need to be unloaded. Hell, you can throw the UNLOADED rifle in your front seat and still be legal (sans school zones). There is no requirement for it to be locked up.

Backcountry
12-19-2008, 8:31 AM
Look, I just want the correct info with me in case I ever get hassled, the flow chart is very vague in some areas and leaves out alot of info. Its good for a quick look over but if someone really wants to screw with you thats not enough info. Even the legal 14 page sheet I have can be edited before I printed it, but thats the one I go off of because its more detailed.

Next time dont waste my time and your time with the response you left. In fact feel free to never answer any questions I post in the future.

You can sign up for remedial Reading & Comprehension 101 online.

ohsmily
12-19-2008, 8:31 AM
You can sign up for remedial Reading & Comprehension 101 online.

My feelings exactly.

The Director
12-19-2008, 8:37 AM
Chunky,

You are so vague and misguided on these laws. Frankly, not only are you making the rest of us look bad, you are voluntarily giving up your rights and your attempting to appease LEOs into leaving you alone by following your self imposed requirements.

It seems like you listen to what gun shops tell you, but don't listen to anyone on here. Gun shops don't know jack squat. They have to sell trigger locks. It's the law. You don't have to put one on your gun...it's not the law!

You don't have to carry a long gun locked, or in your trunk, or whatever. Put it on your dash!

Instead of spending all this time researching your belt and suspenders approach, why don't you take the time to learn and abide by the current laws. You'll find they're much less onerous if you know them.

Hey, if you want to top load, weld your mag well, trigger lock your gun, or just plain not shoot it - it's too much hassle - that's your biz. I think you should also submit to an ankle bracelet, an in car breathalizer, and an ignition lock. You can never be too safe!

Chunky_lover
12-19-2008, 9:06 AM
Chunky,

You are so vague and misguided on these laws. Frankly, not only are you making the rest of us look bad, you are voluntarily giving up your rights and your attempting to appease LEOs into leaving you alone by following your self imposed requirements.

It seems like you listen to what gun shops tell you, but don't listen to anyone on here. Gun shops don't know jack squat. They have to sell trigger locks. It's the law. You don't have to put one on your gun...it's not the law!

You don't have to carry a long gun locked, or in your trunk, or whatever. Put it on your dash!

Instead of spending all this time researching your belt and suspenders approach, why don't you take the time to learn and abide by the current laws. You'll find they're much less onerous if you know them.

Hey, if you want to top load, weld your mag well, trigger lock your gun, or just plain not shoot it - it's too much hassle - that's your biz. I think you should also submit to an ankle bracelet, an in car breathalizer, and an ignition lock. You can never be too safe!



Well what I do is not that big of deal, so I put a lock on it :eek: Im sure the extra 10 seconds of my life wont matter too much. Thanks for the info.

Model17
12-19-2008, 9:58 AM
I'm a n00b to this forum and I think I already love this forum.

geeknow
12-19-2008, 10:26 AM
I'm a n00b to this forum and I think I already love this forum.

Welcome to Calguns!

Mark One
12-19-2008, 12:46 PM
How can you not love it?

shark92651
12-19-2008, 2:30 PM
Look, I just want the correct info with me in case I ever get hassled, the flow chart is very vague in some areas and leaves out alot of info. Its good for a quick look over but if someone really wants to screw with you thats not enough info. Even the legal 14 page sheet I have can be edited before I printed it, but thats the one I go off of because its more detailed.

Dude, if someone (an ill-informed cop) really wants to screw with you it doesn't matter how many pieces of paper you wave in their face. You need to understand the law and insulting the people that have been into the OLL scene for a few years now and are taking the time to point it out to you and put you on the right track is not the right approach to take.

I also apologize for sending you that worthless link to an actual police training bulletin that is being used to explain to police how a Bullet Button equipped AR can be legal.

Next time dont waste my time and your time with the response you left. In fact feel free to never answer any questions I post in the future.

I don't think many readers of this thread would agree that I am the one wasting anyone's time here :rolleyes:

nobs11
12-19-2008, 2:33 PM
Im sure the extra 10 seconds of my life wont matter too much. Thanks for the info.

Do what you are comfortable with. If you are comfortable with owning single shot 22s, so be it. But do NOT spread incorrect information and then act passive aggressive when people tell you that you are wrong.

missiontrails
12-19-2008, 3:11 PM
LOL, when I started this post, I was just looking for a few of you to chime in so that my 2 friends would truely know that they could remove and load their mags from their bullet button equipped weapons.

alleyehave
12-19-2008, 4:52 PM
You should probably have someone hold the stock and pistol grip 50 ft away while you do this so you don't get in trouble for constructive possession as well ;):TFH:

I can't believe you're even suggesting that! But then again, I should have mentioned that I actually leave the range after disassembly, and lock my pistol grip in the trunk of my car, 100 feet away from the range property. It's the only smart way to reload an AR.

alleyehave
12-19-2008, 5:00 PM
Look, I just want the correct info with me in case I ever get hassled, the flow chart is very vague in some areas and leaves out alot of info. Its good for a quick look over but if someone really wants to screw with you thats not enough info. Even the legal 14 page sheet I have can be edited before I printed it, but thats the one I go off of because its more detailed.

Next time dont waste my time and your time with the response you left. In fact feel free to never answer any questions I post in the future.


I'm starting to sense that the real threat is not with ill-informed LEOs, but ill-informed and blatantly RUDE AR-owners. I'm not sure if it's due to this guy's incompetence or just american pansification, but this guy should NEVER take his locks off as far as i'm concerned.

Josh3239
12-19-2008, 8:45 PM
LOL, when I started this post, I was just looking for a few of you to chime in so that my 2 friends would truely know that they could remove and load their mags from their bullet button equipped weapons.

Then hopefully they should know the correct answer now.

Though the fact that they couldn't figure it out on their own is beyond ridiculous. Seriously, what good is a mag lock that is only useful in CA (other states you can run detachable mags) that allows you to use a tool to drop the mag, if you couldn't legally drop the mag?