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CCWFacts
12-17-2008, 8:26 PM
I know we're all excited about the incorporation aspects of Nordyke. But it also has important implications for commerce in arms questions. Nordyke is all about commerce in arms. It argues that, because the RKBA is protected, commerce in arms is also protected.

People are mainly excited about the RKBA aspect, but the commerce-in-arms aspect has equally important implications right here.

The urban areas of this state are losing all their gun shops. I think SF may have one left. The city of LA has few if any that sell locally. (LA Guns, whose owner once told me that don't want to get involved in gun political issues, no longer sellers locally.)

If we lose all of our local gun businesses, shooting culture will end in this state, and our rights will always be in danger if that happens. That's what has happened in the UK and they will have a very hard time ever reversing it. We need local shops and ranges to preserve the shooting culture. As it is, I live in the middle of a large urban city and it's quite a drive for me to get to a range, and at least an hour drive to any retail gun store. I can't stop by a gun shop to pick up a Boresnake or something. I end up ordering everything I need on-line. But gun shops are a key link in the chain for new shooters.

What happens right now is that city councils in these areas pass all kinds of ordnances that make it impossible to do retail gun business, or else they flat-out deny the biz permits needed. They make it more and more difficult for anyone to operate an existing gun shop, and they make it impossible to start a new one. To get an FFL you need a retail location. So if I were to start an FFL in my city, I would need to lease some retail space, and then apply for the biz license from the city, and then apply for the FFL. The city would make sure it took 6 to 12 months in court before having any possibility of getting it, meaning I would need to pay rent on this space for probably over a year before I could make any sales. Or, I could pay all that rent and so on and still not get a license, and be out a lot of money.

My hope is that a strong Nordyke ruling will do a lot to protect commerce in arms. Alameda County put all kinds of restrictions on gun shows just for the purpose of hindering the commerce in arms. That's exactly what cities do. I hope that Nordyke will let a few FFLs slap around a few cities who try that, and let us start opening retail gun shops, whether the local communities like it or not.

Just like a city might require a church to get permits and so on, but it can't take actions solely for the purpose of harassing and obstructing the church from existing, I hope Nordyke will give the same protection for retail FFLs.

It's one thing to win the legal battle, but we still need to win the battle on the ground to really win.

hoffmang
12-17-2008, 8:32 PM
:iagree:

The quiet and potentially most important part of Nordyke is finding that we have a constitutional right to commerce in arms.

-Gene

sorensen440
12-17-2008, 8:37 PM
I had not thought about that
very well said

Ford8N
12-18-2008, 3:33 AM
If we lose all of our local gun businesses, shooting culture will end in this state, and our rights will always be in danger if that happens. That's what has happened in the UK and they will have a very hard time ever reversing it. We need local shops and ranges to preserve the shooting culture. As it is, I live in the middle of a large urban city and it's quite a drive for me to get to a range, and at least an hour drive to any retail gun store. I can't stop by a gun shop to pick up a Boresnake or something. I end up ordering everything I need on-line. But gun shops are a key link in the chain for new shooters.

What happens right now is that city councils in these areas pass all kinds of ordnances that make it impossible to do retail gun business, or else they flat-out deny the biz permits needed. They make it more and more difficult for anyone to operate an existing gun shop, and they make it impossible to start a new one. To get an FFL you need a retail location. So if I were to start an FFL in my city, I would need to lease some retail space, and then apply for the biz license from the city, and then apply for the FFL. The city would make sure it took 6 to 12 months in court before having any possibility of getting it, meaning I would need to pay rent on this space for probably over a year before I could make any sales. Or, I could pay all that rent and so on and still not get a license, and be out a lot of money.



This is why shooting is not mainstream anymore. There is no where to shoot. And it doesn't help when our rulers "discourage" shooting commerce and any thing related to the hobby. Maybe it's part of the Brady's plan:TFH:. I hope this Nordyke thing helps.

CCWFacts
12-18-2008, 8:36 AM
This is why shooting is not mainstream anymore. There is no where to shoot. And it doesn't help when our rulers "discourage" shooting commerce and any thing related to the hobby. Maybe it's part of the Brady's plan:TFH:. I hope this Nordyke thing helps.

Sure. Look back in the history of this state. They tried in 1986 (?) to pass a ballot initiative that banned. It flopped. My feeling is they learned something from that. They realized, "we need to slowly cut off gun culture first, and then we can move to bans like this. As long as there is a significant pool of people in our urban areas who use guns recreationally, we can't get traction for this." So, they consciously embarked on a campaign of stomping out shooting culture, and attacks on commerce in arms are the most powerful way to do that. Not gun shops, no ranges, no mail-order ammo = shooting culture stops growing. And if it's not growing, it's shrinking.

garandguy10
12-18-2008, 9:01 AM
Why do you think that you are going to prevail in Nordyke? Seems like there is some sort of presumption out here that you have Nordyke in the bag.

What are you going to do if/when you do not previal in "Nordyke".

FreedomIsNotFree
12-18-2008, 2:19 PM
Just an FYI, in order obtain an FFL, you don't have to have a retail location when you apply. You have 30 days from it's issuance to comply.

CCWFacts
12-18-2008, 2:58 PM
One other interesting aspect of this commerce-in-arms thing: some of this state's regs are clearly designed solely for the purpose of frustrating commerce in arms. In particular, the whole roster thing. If it really were about safety, the law would apply equally to LEOs. If these guns are not safe, how is it tolerable that our LEOs could exposed to them? Also, the fact is, any modern handgun passes these tests. The fact that three samples are submitted and not returned, and the high cost of annual renewal, all that is clearly designed to frustrate commerce in arms.

If they had a law that "all religious groups must register, must pay $1,000 per year, must provide copies of all religious materials, must provide member lists and proof of identify for all members", that would clearly be nothing more than harassment and obstruction of a protected religious activity. Putting it in those terms, the Roster's purpose is clear and I hope a court would see that.

Just an FYI, in order obtain an FFL, you don't have to have a retail location when you apply. You have 30 days from it's issuance to comply.

I've never even looked into the process of applying for an FFL. Would it be possible to say, "I intend to locate somewhere in the city of LA, I'm not sure where, but it will be zoned for retail", and then apply for the FFL? And could you apply for all the city permits without first having a location picked out? How would that be possible?

I somehow have a feeling that in between the requirements of the FFL, the CA-DoJ and the city, there's no way it would happen without spending tons of money on lawyers, "useless" rent, and taking 12 to 18 months, and the final answer would probably still be "no".

I notice that SF and LA have fewer and fewer shops, and no new ones are opening. SF is down to one shop that has been there for 50 years. If we don't get some protection for commerce-in-arms, we'll lose just by having gun shop owners retire. Can't have much of a gun community if there are no shops.

I know that when the SF Gun Exchange had its going-out-of-biz sale a few years ago, there was a line out the door for three days. WHERE WERE ALL THOSE GUN BUYERS WHEN IT WAS IN BUSINESS? Where were they during SF's elections, for supes and for sheriff? Where were they in the general elections when they elected such nut-cases?

I hope Nordyke will let would-be gun retailers have confidence that their business ideas can't be obstructed by plain old PC city councils, and will encourage some more shops.

garandguy10
12-18-2008, 5:08 PM
You can have a 01FFL out of your home,so long as the county,city does not object or have ordinances against it and/or if they will grant you a Business license for retail Firearms sales.

hoffmang
12-18-2008, 5:29 PM
Why do you think that you are going to prevail in Nordyke? Seems like there is some sort of presumption out here that you have Nordyke in the bag.

I suggest you read the panel's previous opinion (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/FCCA5E5E7F2EBF2088256CD1005B853B/$file/9917551.pdf?openelement). It's quite clear they understand what the Second Amendment is supposed to mean.

-Gene

GuyW
12-18-2008, 6:27 PM
They tried in 1986 (?) to pass a ballot initiative that banned.

Prop 15...1982...
.

tincan715
12-19-2008, 8:48 AM
I notice that SF and LA have fewer and fewer shops, and no new ones are opening. SF is down to one shop that has been there for 50 years. If we don't get some protection for commerce-in-arms, we'll lose just by having gun shop owners retire. Can't have much of a gun community if there are no shops.

I'm not sure that this is primarily due to legal restrictions, I think the change in retail generally is probably more significant. There are also fewer and fewer independent independent clothing stores, independent toy stores, and independent book stores, because a large segment of the population prefers the good deals and broad selection available at big box stores and online retailers. Frankly I doubt that there's much hope of seeing a return to the time when independent gun shops were common, any more than we will see new (successful) independent book stores. I purchased my most recent new handgun from a sponsor here who does most of his business through special orders. I suspect that's how most firearms transactions will be handled in the coming years.

garandguy10
12-19-2008, 10:00 AM
I have read the opinion and it is nice enough,However funny things happen in court especially when you have a very politically sensitive subject that goes across the grain of the powers that be.

Do not count your chickens until they have hatched.

Bad Voodoo
12-19-2008, 10:09 AM
I had always just assumed that commerce in arms would be inclusive in an incorporation win. It appears a logical assumption at first blush, however would this be argued as a separate component of Nordyke?

nrakid88
12-19-2008, 10:43 AM
Wow, I just read that link, Thanks Gene. Wow, so cool to read court documents that refer to the people needing firearms as a check and ballance against a "Federal Tyranny", haha, up untill a few months ago I thought it was illegal to talk about violent overthrow of the government. Thank god for free speech. I think were going to win this after reading that document, actually, it sounds like it'll be tough to lose.

FreedomIsNotFree
12-19-2008, 10:23 PM
I've never even looked into the process of applying for an FFL. Would it be possible to say, "I intend to locate somewhere in the city of LA, I'm not sure where, but it will be zoned for retail", and then apply for the FFL? And could you apply for all the city permits without first having a location picked out? How would that be possible?

I somehow have a feeling that in between the requirements of the FFL, the CA-DoJ and the city, there's no way it would happen without spending tons of money on lawyers, "useless" rent, and taking 12 to 18 months, and the final answer would probably still be "no".

If you are within city limits you must have the CLEO sign off on your FFL license. If you are in an unincorporated area of the county, the Sheriff must sign off.

I don't believe Fong or Bratton are inclined to do any such thing...at least not yet.;)

yellowfin
12-19-2008, 10:28 PM
In order for this to stick you still need an official oppression law in place to penalize the DOJ's harassment of the gun community. A good court ruling is one thing, meaning you can win if you get hauled into court, but even with that they'll still make up their BS and fling enough stuff at the wall in hopes of making it stick. They still don't mind using the public coffers to terrorize us. They have nothing but time and money as far as they're concerned. It needs to cost them personally and severely enough to make them stop.

CCWFacts
12-19-2008, 10:58 PM
If you are within city limits you must have the CLEO sign off on your FFL license. If you are in an unincorporated area of the county, the Sheriff must sign off.

I don't believe Fong or Bratton are inclined to do any such thing...at least not yet.;)

I didn't realize that was required, but if so, I know Fong, Bratton, Hennessey, Baca... none of these villains would sign it. Even if they got a court order they wouldn't sign it. I guess a federal court could make them do it.

yellowfin
12-20-2008, 1:39 AM
I didn't realize that was required, but if so, I know Fong, Bratton, Hennessey, Baca... none of these villains would sign it. Even if they got a court order they wouldn't sign it. I guess a federal court could make them do it.What effect does contempt of court have on an LEO, particularly a CLEO? Are there any consequences to them that can be imposed, any with teeth?

hoffmang
12-20-2008, 9:36 AM
What effect does contempt of court have on an LEO, particularly a CLEO? Are there any consequences to them that can be imposed, any with teeth?

Fines and jail time. Contempt is a very serious matter and a Judge can instruct a bailiff or marshal to arrest and sieze money directly from someone in contempt. Here is an example (http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/crimprof_blog/2007/03/police_held_in_.html) where I doubt more than the contempt hearing was necessary to get the stuff release.

-Gene

AngelDecoys
12-20-2008, 12:18 PM
.........Nordyke is all about commerce in arms. It argues that, because the RKBA is protected, commerce in arms is also protected.

The urban areas of this state are losing all their gun shops. .....

If we lose all of our local gun businesses, shooting culture will end in this state, and our rights will always be in danger if that happens. ..... But gun shops are a key link in the chain for new shooters.

It's one thing to win the legal battle, but we still need to win the battle on the ground to really win.

In large part I agree, however I'd say the lack of shooting areas (and lack of hunters) has more to do with the decline in this state. And let's be honest, 2nd amendment rights will always be under fire in this state.

I'm not sure that this is primarily due to legal restrictions, I think the change in retail generally is probably more significant. Frankly I doubt that there's much hope of seeing a return to the time when independent gun shops were common, any more than we will see new (successful) independent book stores. ....

+1. This is primarily a change in 'generational dynamics'. Online sales have been slowly increasing for years. A controlled item (like firearms) adds a different dynamic to the model, but the end result will be the same. Independent gun stores who wish to remain long term will need to have some sort of online component. People like to support local vendors, but they also like the convenience of not having to run errands all over town.

Nodda Duma
12-20-2008, 7:47 PM
In large part I agree, however I'd say the lack of shooting areas (and lack of hunters) has more to do with the decline in this state. And let's be honest, 2nd amendment rights will always be under fire in this state.


Be comforted in the fact that this statement may only really apply to urban areas. Get away from the major metropolitan areas (read: The Coast), and there is no lack of places to shoot. Gun culture is alive and well out here amongst the coyotes and open desert. And by the way, the redistricting Proposition (forget the number) will only help to give that gun culture a stronger voice in Sacramento.

-Jason

Pont
12-20-2008, 7:53 PM
Independent gun stores who wish to remain long term will need to have some sort of online component. People like to support local vendors, but they also like the convenience of not having to run errands all over town.

I agree. These days, everyone does their research on-line. If they get the itch to buy while they are doing research at 10:00pm, they can actually make the purchase on-line. Are they going to wait until they can go to the local gun store which A) may not have it in stock and B) generally has less-than-convenient store hours?

California FFLs, in theory, have a big huge advantage over non-local online gun stores -- buyers have to go through a local FFL anyways!

I would love to have a reasonably local gun store where I could
1) shop for any CA-legal firearm or accessory the store can possibly procure for me
2) get a price quote, stock check, and an estimate of how long it would take to get there if it was out of stock
3) buy the damn things when the physical store was closed

Maybe what we need to do to help CA gun shops is a community-effort to modernize their on-line stores. So many of them look like they were done by a retarded color-blind teenager back in 1994.

AngelDecoys
12-21-2008, 9:17 AM
Maybe what we need to do to help CA gun shops is a community-effort to modernize their on-line stores.

Nordyke may help in terms of ridding ourselves of a couple regulations (city size limit for store front requirement amongst other things), but the real hurtle for any new store will be the overhead, etc that any retail store has in CA.

What I'd like to see (but haven't yet seen on the 'mom and pop' retail side) is a concerted effort to enter into a Federation of stores if you will. Were all single proprietor gun stores in an area to work together and share an online component, they could share revenue, and therefore could increase some market share. A "NorCal Online Gun Store Network" for instance that allowed you to round up (like MidwayUSA) to support CGF would be a good way to help the movement directly in CA. Add a 'real time' component to answering questions, or have that 'wagon wheel hub' located in Nevada (where sales tax is avoided) and you've now become my favorite gun store that helps the RKBA in CA.

This also would be helpful with stores who consider themselves too small to compete in online sales (though a couple of venders here are only 1-2 people :rolleyes:). Heck you could have a online vender here team up with local gun stores, profit share, etc. in exchange for their site being promoted via sign/literature/business card.

Anyway, regulation is a factor but adjusting a traditional business model to one that addresses how business is being done in a modern 'real time' environment is the real challenge.

tincan715
12-21-2008, 11:05 AM
What I'd like to see (but haven't yet seen on the 'mom and pop' retail side) is a concerted effort to enter into a Federation of stores if you will.

That's a good thought - something along those lines has worked for independent hardware stores. Ace and True Value hardware stores are independent businesses that have "federated" into a national organization that has enough buying power to negotiate with vendors for good prices and can afford to invest in a private brand. Gun retailers could probably benefit significantly from a similar strategy.

DDT
12-21-2008, 11:15 AM
Actually I think it's a great idea. Someone would have to put together an initial website. Get the "associated stores" to populate their areas on the website with specific information about their retail operations and standardize a DROS price for transfers from store to store. Let's just say they are willing to DROS for a $20 fee (only 2X the cost of PPT) in exchange for the same treatment from the other associated stores for their goods.

I know that I would be happy to pay basic shipping plus a $10 DROS premium to not have to travel 1 hour twice to do a PPt. This would also re-enforce the relationship between the local store and local gun owners.

This small level of cooperation alone would be a great value just for the increased traffic in the consignment/used weapon area. With a more liquid used gun market the prices would normalize and the shops would be better able to buy/consign guns if there was a more liquid market.

If the association worked well for the independents I can see a closer relationship building such as aggregate purchasing for better discounts on supplies etc. helping them to compete with Big5 etc.

AngelDecoys
12-21-2008, 11:30 AM
DDT: I feel like I've somewhat highjacked the point of this thread which was commerce regulatory possibilities subsequent Nordyke.

My thinking would purely be with regards to 'non controlled' items. Firearms would still have to be PPT'ed locally. Out of state transfers as well. Unless the law were to change, that's not really an option (though individual stores could list inventory real time).

But you and tincan715 are right that an independent 'association' or 'federation' would increase bargaining power on those items. Maybe even with pricing on firearms since the numbers would be larger. Dunno. I'm just thinking an online store to augment what the traditional store already has would increase market share. Increased profit potential might increase the desire for some independents to open their own shop.

DDT
12-21-2008, 11:32 AM
Taken to PM.