PDA

View Full Version : I feel like I'm getting scammed! Re: Gun Safe Afadavit


McMadCow
12-17-2008, 12:44 AM
I'm going in to pick up a new (used) handgun tomorrow at a dealer here in The Bay Area. When I purchased the handgun they automatically tacked on a CA-approved gun lock. The problem is that I own a safe, and I told them I don't need the lock, I can sign the afadavit that affirms I own a gun safe, but they told me they can't do that anymore. The guy said it was new and there is no more form to sign and avoid buying the lock with a gun that doesn't include it.
Well, I just bought another used handgun in Mid-October and I signed the afadavit and was on my merry way. What gives? Has there been a change in the procedure in the last month? Or are these guys scamming me for $15? And what good is this $1200 hunk of steel in my living room if I need a stupid little lock for security?
If someone could point me in the direction of any new regs passed down I'd really appreciate. I'd like to go in there and be able to show them that they're in the wrong. I'm still going to pick up the gun, of course- got too good a deal on too cool a gun to walk away. But if I really am being scammed here I'm going to call the DOJ after the fact.
Any info would be appreciated. Thanks. :(

Dr Rockso
12-17-2008, 12:48 AM
I can't quote the law, but I believe this did change recently for handguns (long guns are still OK with a safe affidavit). You don't have to buy the lock from the shop, though, so some people will go buy it at wal-mart, bring the lock and the receipt to pick up the gun, and return the lock on their way home from the gun shop.

hoffmang
12-17-2008, 12:52 AM
This is a problem with the interaction between Federal and California law. Librarian did an excellent job summarizing it on the Calguns Foundation wiki:
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Locks.2C _Safes.2C_and_Laws

-Gene

ke6guj
12-17-2008, 12:53 AM
CA gun safe affidavit only works for long guns because the Feds have their own handgun safety lock regulations now and the CA affidavit does not meet the regulations.

McMadCow
12-17-2008, 1:00 AM
CA gun safe affidavit only works for long guns because the Feds have their own handgun safety lock regulations now and the CA affidavit does not meet the regulations.


Wow, and when did it go into effect? Like I said I just picked up another pistol in Mid-October and the fadavit was sufficient. Bummer!

ke6guj
12-17-2008, 1:06 AM
Looks like it went into affect in 2005.

In October 2005, as part of the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, Congress passed and the President signed into law legislation making it unlawful for any licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer to sell or transfer any handgun unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device. 18 U.S.C. 922(z). A “secure gun storage or safety device” is defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(34) as:
(A) a device that, when installed on a firearm, is designed to prevent the firearm from being operated without first deactivating the device;

(B) a device incorporated into the design of the firearm that is designed to prevent the operation of the firearm by anyone not having access to the device; or

(C) a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination, or other similar means.

Now, that pistol you picked up in Oct, perhaps it had a factory lock of some sort? Or was from a dealer who was not familiar with the new fed regulations.

McMadCow
12-17-2008, 1:09 AM
Looks like it went into affect in 2005.



Now, that pistol you picked up in Oct, perhaps it had a factory lock of some sort? Or was from a dealer who was not familiar with the new fed regulations.


Nope, no factory lock. It was a 1958 Hi-Standard Sport King. The one I'm picking up tomorrow is a 1941 H-S Model C. I've got a bit of a Hi-Standard fetish. Either way, I guess my first transaction was handled incorrectly by the dealer...? :confused:

Seesm
12-17-2008, 1:41 AM
Cant you just bring in a gunlock from home and call it good?

domokun
12-17-2008, 1:51 AM
Cant you just bring in a gunlock from home and call it good?

No. The lock must have a receipt showing purchase of a CA DOJ approved gun lock within the last 30 days or come with a lock from the factory in order for it to work. However, the law does not say anything about you having to keep the lock once you've taken possession of the handgun and left the store.

What many people have done is purchased a lock from Walmart or any other store that isn't where you're picking up the handgun/firearm from and returned the lock after taking the handgun home.

hawk1
12-17-2008, 8:32 AM
Nope, no factory lock. It was a 1958 Hi-Standard Sport King. The one I'm picking up tomorrow is a 1941 H-S Model C. I've got a bit of a Hi-Standard fetish. Either way, I guess my first transaction was handled incorrectly by the dealer...? :confused:

Some dealers know the law and some don't. I bought a handgun a couple weeks ago and the guy had no clue about the Handgun Safety Act of 2005.
I asked him to go ahead and photocopy the receipt of my lock anyways. I wasn't going to make a second trip back out to his shop to "fix things" once the feds catch up with him in an audit.
If you buy a handgun that is not new or without an approved lock, buy your lock at Walmart within 30 days of picking up (after DROS). The just return the lock at Walmart for refund.

Knauga
12-17-2008, 8:40 AM
Next time you buy a PPT firearm, just bring one of your DOJ approved locks, if you are like anybody else around here, you probably have a few, and give it to the seller to put with the gun. Now the gun is being sold WITH a CA DOJ approved lock.

hawk1
12-17-2008, 8:45 AM
Next time you buy a PPT firearm, just bring one of your DOJ approved locks, if you are like anybody else around here, you probably have a few, and give it to the seller to put with the gun. Now the gun is being sold WITH a CA DOJ approved lock.

If the handgun is 'used' then this will not work. Used requires an approved lock (and receipt) purchased within 30 days.

kermit315
12-17-2008, 8:49 AM
hand write the reciept.....that is legal and cheap.

383green
12-17-2008, 9:58 AM
If the handgun is 'used' then this will not work. Used requires an approved lock (and receipt) purchased within 30 days.

Then have the seller charge you $0.01 to return your lock at time of pick-up. :chris:

hawk1
12-17-2008, 10:26 AM
Then have the seller charge you $0.01 to return your lock at time of pick-up. :chris:

Why all the drama?
Just have the seller include a receipt for the lock if he's providing one.
No where does it say that has to be from 'xxx'. Just that you have an approved and a receipt. :)

Dark&Good
12-17-2008, 6:34 PM
I might be slipping over something here... according to the quoted laws at Librarian's link above, a safe is good enough. What am I missing?

HowardW56
12-17-2008, 6:51 PM
I might be slipping over something here... according to the quoted laws at Librarian's link above, a safe is good enough. What am I missing?

Re-read the Federal portion of the laws. Thats where the problem comes up. A safe is good if you buy one with each gun purchase...

Dark&Good
12-17-2008, 6:55 PM
Gee. Right.
Plain stupid "law".

RHT447
12-17-2008, 7:43 PM
I spoke with ATF about this last month. Here is how it was explained to me.

The Gun Safe Affidavit meets the lock requirement for Calif. and you can still use it to do that. It does not meet the Federal requirement.

As quoted earlier, "...unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device. 18 U.S.C. 922(z)." It doesn't say provided by who.

ATF I spoke with (Sacramento office) said it is fine to provide your own from home, just so long as the handgun goes out the gunshop door with a lock. Yes, the gunshop must have locks on hand (free or for sale) in case a customer needs one.

I further inquired if there was any Federal requirement that the lock had be on anybody's certified list, and/or if any documentation was required. The answer was "No."

I then asked "How do you enforce this?" The answer was "The only way we can enforce this is if we happen to be standing outside a shop and actually see a handgun picked up and leave without a lock."

taloft
12-17-2008, 8:00 PM
I spoke with ATF about this last month. Here is how it was explained to me.

The Gun Safe Affidavit meets the lock requirement for Calif. and you can still use it to do that. It does not meet the Federal requirement.

As quoted earlier, "...unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device. 18 U.S.C. 922(z)." It doesn't say provided by who.

ATF I spoke with (Sacramento office) said it is fine to provide your own from home, just so long as the handgun goes out the gunshop door with a lock. Yes, the gunshop must have locks on hand (free or for sale) in case a customer needs one.

I further inquired if there was any Federal requirement that the lock had be on anybody's certified list, and/or if any documentation was required. The answer was "No."

I then asked "How do you enforce this?" The answer was "The only way we can enforce this is if we happen to be standing outside a shop and actually see a handgun picked up and leave without a lock."The irony here is that the CA DOJ requires that any gun lock sold has to be on the certified list. As a result, any gun locks sold to satisfy the BATFE requirements have to be on the CA DOJ certified roster even though the BATFE could care less. I wish the Feds would quit screwing around and just adopt a safe affidavit already.

weekend_plinker
12-17-2008, 8:07 PM
go to walmart buy a lock dont open it . and return it after you pick up the gun. that why you get your gun and dont have to pay there high fee for a $5 dollar lock

Librarian
12-17-2008, 8:14 PM
I spoke with ATF about this last month. Here is how it was explained to me.

The Gun Safe Affidavit meets the lock requirement for Calif. and you can still use it to do that. It does not meet the Federal requirement.

As quoted earlier, "...unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device. 18 U.S.C. 922(z)." It doesn't say provided by who.

ATF I spoke with (Sacramento office) said it is fine to provide your own from home, just so long as the handgun goes out the gunshop door with a lock. Yes, the gunshop must have locks on hand (free or for sale) in case a customer needs one.

I further inquired if there was any Federal requirement that the lock had be on anybody's certified list, and/or if any documentation was required. The answer was "No."

I then asked "How do you enforce this?" The answer was "The only way we can enforce this is if we happen to be standing outside a shop and actually see a handgun picked up and leave without a lock."

So, since you seem able to get someone to talk to you, would you please call them back and say "Since the actual law about the 'secure gun storage or safety device' says a gun safe satisfies the requirement, when will ATF have a way to document that a buyer is using his already-purchased safe?"

Maybe, just maybe, if they get hundreds of contacts on the issue they'll create an answer.

halifax
12-17-2008, 8:14 PM
I spoke with ATF about this last month. Here is how it was explained to me.

The Gun Safe Affidavit meets the lock requirement for Calif. and you can still use it to do that. It does not meet the Federal requirement.

As quoted earlier, "...unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device. 18 U.S.C. 922(z)." It doesn't say provided by who.

ATF I spoke with (Sacramento office) said it is fine to provide your own from home, just so long as the handgun goes out the gunshop door with a lock. Yes, the gunshop must have locks on hand (free or for sale) in case a customer needs one.

I further inquired if there was any Federal requirement that the lock had be on anybody's certified list, and/or if any documentation was required. The answer was "No."

I then asked "How do you enforce this?" The answer was "The only way we can enforce this is if we happen to be standing outside a shop and actually see a handgun picked up and leave without a lock."

There is a slight problem here: the dealer is the one with the onus of providing the lock. CA dealers are not allowed to even have non-certified locking devices on-hand for customers. If a non-certified locking device came with the firearm, it must be removed and disposed of. Therefore, the CA dealer cannot provide anything but a CA certified lock.

It is true that there is no "Federal requirement that the lock had be on anybody's certified list, and/or if any documentation was required." but CA dealers must still comply with CA law.

The ATF only cares about Federal requirements. CA dealers must obey both Federal and State requirements.

DDT
12-17-2008, 9:35 PM
Only a fool would own a weapon without a lock and/or a safe to allow you safely store and transport a weapon.
[/sarcasm]


http://www.customreceipt.com/

Knauga
12-17-2008, 11:34 PM
If the handgun is 'used' then this will not work. Used requires an approved lock (and receipt) purchased within 30 days.

Bought 3, sold 1 that way. Two of those transactions were at different Turners even. All 4 transactions were PPT of "used" firearms. The only concern they had was that it MUST be CA Approved, the locks were and the FFL just noted on the DROS the type of lock included in the transaction.

If you are buying a gun (new or used) that does not come with a lock, you must provide one and proof that it was purchased within 30 days at pick up.

MindBuilder
12-18-2008, 4:19 AM
How about if before you buy your gun, you sell your safe to the gun store for full market value. Then the gun store can sell it back to you with the gun. If you don't actually bring the safe to the store then ATF could complain that the dealer doesn't even know if the safe exists. But if you sign a safe affidavit then that might be sufficiently reasonable basis for the dealer to believe you actually have the safe. For most laws such an end run would not be acceptable, but since both federal and California laws permit safes as acceptable storage solutions, maybe the affidavit and a receipt would be considered passable in court. Perhaps some other evidence like the safe instruction manual and a picture would help support the dealers belief in the existence of the safe.

One problem could be that if you sell your safe to the dealer at full market value, you may have to pay sales tax on the transaction both ways. But I think there might not be sales tax on used goods. You could possibly sell it for a penny. But if sales taxes are due then that might be considered tax evasion. I'm pretty sure it used to be and probably still is the case that private party sales of used goods (like garage sales) in California aren't taxed. If that's the case and if a receipt is sufficient, then maybe you could bring a receipt showing your purchase of a safe from your friend.

hawk1
12-18-2008, 7:47 AM
Bought 3, sold 1 that way. Two of those transactions were at different Turners even. All 4 transactions were PPT of "used" firearms. The only concern they had was that it MUST be CA Approved, the locks were and the FFL just noted on the DROS the type of lock included in the transaction.

If you are buying a gun (new or used) that does not come with a lock, you must provide one and proof that it was purchased within 30 days at pick up.

I'm glad this worked for you. We both can agree that finding two FFL's that do the same thing is rare. I may even give this a try at some point if I have the need.
Thanks for the info.

kmca
12-18-2008, 8:28 AM
The way I understand it, the safe affidavit satisfies the California requirement and, if the gun comes in a lockable case, any old lock can satisfy the federal requirement. So, if you have a safe, there is no requirement for a certified lock, purchased within the 30 days.

Hanniballs
12-18-2008, 10:05 AM
easy solution.

-go to big5 and purchase a gun lock
-pickup firearm
-return to big5 and return lock.

DDT
12-18-2008, 11:10 AM
I bought an Off List Lower (OLL) receiver at a local gun store recently. The clerk sold me a gun lock for $9, then opened the package, looped the lock through the OLL, locked it, handed me the key, and then I was free to go.

Was it a "pistol" OLL?