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10ring45
12-16-2008, 8:15 PM
I was recently at my gunsmith's shop and he had a Kaiser Defense lower in the vice and the buffer spring tube STUCK on the lower itself, well long story short he got it on there so tight and it had a HUGE gap between the receiver and the buffer spring tube where they should have been flush.

We finally got the stuck buffer spring tube off and it came off in pieces. Then we took a micrometer to the lower itself and found that moving from the rear of the threads on the receiver the front of the threads on the receiver there was a decent discrepancy (I do not remember the exact measurements) enough to cause the buffer spring to be short almost 3/8 of an inch maybe more. So he had to order a TAP so that he can fix the threading of the receiver.

To shorten this already long story, I ordered and DROS'd 3 of the KD lowers from Royal Loan (outstanding customer service) and I was concerned that my three lowers may exhibit this problem, has anyone else experienced this problem with the KD lowers?

gunsmithcats
12-16-2008, 8:20 PM
i'd call kaiser and tell them to unf^ck that now

10ring45
12-16-2008, 8:30 PM
I agree but he said he could fix it. However if mine are the same way I will be at KD front door step with a buffer spring and buttstock.

Seesm
12-16-2008, 8:42 PM
Sounds like a machining flaw one one the pieces...

When you make threads a certain pitch is used and sounds like one is tight and one is loose...

So that is sometimes the problem with two different parts manufactures. Not to say it can not happen with two pieces from the same company but it's less likely as most would test fit but the whole lot of OLL out there they are test fitting everyones parts as thye should be I bet.

I would hold off on the tap "temorarily" anyway and just call up Kaiser and see if they can fix them all free of charge.

I bet they know they have a issue (if it's there part that is wrong..)

My way to check would be if the other piece will thread into another brand lower ok...

Pm me if you have any specific questions and I may be able to help you.

damon1272
12-16-2008, 8:56 PM
They are a local company if you have any problems. they have posted on thsi board before and seem eager to sell. I would at this point give them the benefit of the doubt. Just check your lowers for fit when you get them and if not go to thier place of business. As for the out of spec lower I would say the gunsmith is not doing right by the customer. That lower should be returned and replaced for a lower that is correct rather than wasting time and money fixing something that was not right in the first place.
I had the same thing with my old man's Cooper rifle. They tried to talk me into using Burris scope rings to make up for the fact that the scope mounting holes were not drilled properly. I made them replace the receiver to make it right rather than dealing with an expensive piece of junk.

ifishinxs
12-16-2008, 9:00 PM
I have a Kaiser lower and its perfect. When Installed the buffer tube it was snug. I used some anti seize grease I had laying around and worked the tube on and off serveral times working further into the receiver threads each time..
Now it screws on and off easliy. ( still snug)

Trapper
12-16-2008, 9:01 PM
Kaiser Defense is based here in SD. I'd call them, explain the problem and give them an opertunity to correct the threads on the lower.
619-987-4764

gtmmark
12-16-2008, 9:07 PM
When I saw this post I pulled my Kaiser out of the safe and sure enough I was only able to screw the buffer tube in part way. The buffer tube is a Bushmaster.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk156/gtmmark2/calguns/DSC01937.jpg

Axewound
12-16-2008, 9:10 PM
well i got one, before the election and would tell you about my experience...but all of my parts are on backorder since before halloween.

so at least you can build yours

5aa12
12-16-2008, 9:41 PM
Man..I pick up my KD lower on the 22nd...hope its not a common problem..but if so, I agree you should go to them and have them fix it right the first time without work arounds to make it "Ok"

hamster
12-16-2008, 9:59 PM
i just put my buffer tube in today to complete my lower and it fit like a glove... see for yourself!
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii236/kamihamster/IMG_0111.jpg

paladin4415
12-16-2008, 10:29 PM
If the lower has a problem they will fix it. Just ask. They are very good people.

USMC Tanker
12-16-2008, 10:30 PM
I tried to thread my LMT buffer tube onto my Kaiser lower today.

It was REALLY snug. I might try some grease tomorrow and try to work it on/off a few times.

Let me know what happens with yours and I'll do the same.

alleyehave
12-16-2008, 11:01 PM
Mine fit great, no problems.

XS40
12-16-2008, 11:14 PM
Between what range of serial numbers was the one that had bad threads from? 0-200, 200-400, etc. I've got two on DROS and am curious to know if the problem is recent or on older serials.

alleyehave
12-16-2008, 11:14 PM
Oops, dupe post. Sorry.

My serial number for my KD lower (buffer tube fit great, no gap between lower & upper) was 100-300

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/dyspnea/kd.jpg

Obviously a Plant
12-16-2008, 11:24 PM
My Kaiser lower was very, very snug around the buffer tube. Not quite the problem that the undersized bolt-catch pin hole was. After deforming the first pin I checked the hole with a drill bit- found it undersized. Being way too impatient for anyone's opinion I slowly hammered the bit through, clamped it with vice-grips and hammered it out again... I might have scratched the lower a bit..:whistling:

Everything else seemed to go together fine, except there's a gap between the lower and the upper that must be a couple hundred miles wide-- talked to the guy who sold it to me & he said all I had to do is wait and it would close-up all by itself... still waiting.

gtmmark
12-16-2008, 11:43 PM
My sn. is in th low 400's

alleyehave
12-17-2008, 12:30 AM
When I saw this post I pulled my Kaiser out of the safe and sure enough I was only able to screw the buffer tube in part way. The buffer tube is a Bushmaster.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk156/gtmmark2/calguns/DSC01937.jpg

I'm new to building ARs, but is that buffer mil-spec? What's that ring on the tube for? Where does the end plate go?

gtmmark
12-17-2008, 12:50 AM
That buffer tube is for a standard fixed stock and doesn't use a end plate. It was manufactured by Bushmaster, as far as being mil-spec I have no idea. The receiver is out of spec, I received my first lower in 1988 for my 16th birthday a PWA and I've never seen this before.

Jicko
12-17-2008, 12:57 AM
I'm new to building ARs, but is that buffer mil-spec? What's that ring on the tube for? Where does the end plate go?

The one in the picture is the plastic buffer tube for the A2-style fixed stock.

I assumed that probably your only experience with AR is with the telescoping CAR stock, which uses a metal buffer tube, and a combination of buffer plate and castle nut to fix the stock in place.

gtmmark
12-17-2008, 12:59 AM
The one in the picture is the plastic buffer tube for the A2-style fixed stock.

I assumed that probably your only experience with AR is with the telescoping CAR stock, which uses a metal buffer tube, and a combination of buffer plate and castle nut to fix the stock in place.

That buffer tube is made of alluminum.

Jicko
12-17-2008, 1:02 AM
That buffer tube is made of alluminum.

lol.... that's why i funk'ed my material science class.... :p

81Rocco
12-17-2008, 1:17 AM
The anadization is too thick. You need to re tap it. Thats what my gun smith did for me charged me $25.00

skale240
12-17-2008, 1:20 AM
speaking of...i just got done putting togther my Kaiser lower. I too found that when screwing on the buffer tube that it was tighter than normal. I couldn't even get the first tube screwed in that far, maybe a couple of threads in. I tried another tube and it screwed on much better but it was getting harder to screw on the farther i went. It was close enough to hold the buffer retainer in place so I used that tube instead of the first. another issue I had was getting the hole for the allen screw to line up when installing my magpul trigger guard. I ended up filing down some of the trigger guard to get it flush. I also had a hellavu time with some of the roll pins...i had to hammer the crap outta them to get them in.

alleyehave
12-17-2008, 1:32 AM
speaking of...i just got done putting togther my Kaiser lower. I too found that when screwing on the buffer tube that it was tighter than normal. I couldn't even get the first tube screwed in that far, maybe a couple of threads in. I tried another tube and it screwed on much better but it was getting harder to screw on the farther i went. It was close enough to hold the buffer retainer in place so I used that tube instead of the first. another issue I had was getting the hole for the allen screw to line up when installing my magpul trigger guard. I ended up filing down some of the trigger guard to get it flush. I also had a hellavu time with some of the roll pins...i had to hammer the crap outta them to get them in.

I had the same problem with the magpul trigger guard. I ended up bailing on it and putting the RRA folding guard back on. Where did you file? Do you have a picture? I'd like to put it on....

gtmmark
12-17-2008, 1:38 AM
I used a little bolt lapping compound on the threads after about 20 or 30 min. of messing with it I was able thread it up.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk156/gtmmark2/calguns/DSC01956.jpg

aplinker
12-17-2008, 7:50 AM
Gunsmiths love to find things wrong with your rifle and then "fix" them for $$

Work the extension and it should work. If not, call KD.

cleanguy46
12-17-2008, 8:09 AM
I was concidering a KD lower and by the looks of this thread i'm glad I didn't get one quite yet. Looks like they have to start focusing on a little more quality control rather then quickly tooling out lowers and profiting on a lower scarce market.

10ring45
12-17-2008, 8:10 AM
Between what range of serial numbers was the one that had bad threads from? 0-200, 200-400, etc. I've got two on DROS and am curious to know if the problem is recent or on older serials.

yes it was just short of 400.

Mine are in the 500 + serials and hoping for no issues.

jksupplyco
12-17-2008, 8:13 AM
I had the same problem with the magpul trigger guard. I ended up bailing on it and putting the RRA folding guard back on. Where did you file? Do you have a picture? I'd like to put it on....


All of those MIAD grips trigger guards are difficult to install.. That is'nt a problem with the lower, they all do that.. I've found that heating the plastic of the trigger guard slightly with a hair dryer makes it more pliable, and thereby making it easier to get into position for the allen screw. It still takes some frustrating pushing and pulling to get into position, but it can be done..

USMC Tanker
12-17-2008, 8:28 AM
I'm having the buffer tube problem and my lower SN is in the upper 700s.

cleanguy46
12-17-2008, 8:48 AM
All of those MIAD grips trigger guards are difficult to install.. That is'nt a problem with the lower, they all do that.. I've found that heating the plastic of the trigger guard slightly with a hair dryer makes it more pliable, and thereby making it easier to get into position for the allen screw. It still takes some frustrating pushing and pulling to get into position, but it can be done..

What he said. I had a similar issue with my Stag lower where the allen screw didn't quite line up properly, but after heating it up a bit it moved right into position.

Timmay
12-17-2008, 9:12 AM
In my experience with threads many manafactures have different "mininums and maximum" tolerances in thread pitch. I am an aircraft mechanic by trade so I speak from experience. Especially when dealing with hydraulics there are many different manafactures that make parts and I have dealt with fitment issues time and time again. The easiest fix is to chase the threads of both components to ensure a smooth fitment, but just because two parts fit tightly doesn't mean it's wrong. I would suggest those of you who have a KD lower to make a list up of what does and does not fit well. Like an above member said a little lube went a long way to helping get the part on. I use Boelube sometimes for stuff that isn't quite going on smoothly. You guys can pick some up for a few bucks online with a quick search and it does wonders on a lot of things around the house and garage. Anyways hopefully my lower doesn't have any issues. Has anyone called KD on this?

cgseanp1
12-17-2008, 9:40 AM
Has anyone called KD on this?

X2... I'd like to hear what KD has to say.

10ring45
12-17-2008, 9:45 AM
I have not because I have not recieved my lowers since I am not out of the 10 days yet. However my gunsmith/dealer said he was going to call them.

skale240
12-17-2008, 11:40 AM
I had the same problem with the magpul trigger guard. I ended up bailing on it and putting the RRA folding guard back on. Where did you file? Do you have a picture? I'd like to put it on....

Here are some quick and kinda crappy snapshots of the Magpul trigger guard on my Kaiser lower. I'll take more detailed ones later tonight.

Note: its kinda confusing in the pics on what i filed down, I should've taken a side photo. The problem was the trigger guard didnt have enough clearance to line the holes up because the ear on the lower seemed bigger than normal and in the way. the first pic shows a brand new trigger guard (courtesy of MP website). I circled in red what i filed down/back. Hope this helps!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/skale240/MPTriggerGuard.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/skale240/DSC03522.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/skale240/DSC03524.jpg

jksupplyco
12-17-2008, 11:58 AM
Oops. I forgot about the Magpul Aluminum winter trigger guard.. Still hard to say whether is was the lower or the guard itself.. Did you try it on any other lowers?

skale240
12-17-2008, 12:17 PM
Oops. I forgot about the Magpul Aluminum winter trigger guard.. Still hard to say whether is was the lower or the guard itself.. Did you try it on any other lowers?

I didn't try this particular trigger guard on any other lower, but i've installed a bunch of these MP trigger guards on different lowers and this was the first time i've run into this. I know its not definite that it is the lower, but it sure seems as if it is. If i can get the roll pin out easy i'll try fitting it on another lower and post my results tonight.

Oh and my serial # on my lower is in the 0-200 range.

kaiserworks
12-17-2008, 1:15 PM
I got a call from someone saying that there was a calguns thread of complaints about our lower receivers. Sure enough, I scroll through the board and find this.

Before I address the problem I'd like to ask why I have not received a call from the customer or his gunsmith that had the problem??? My direct line is no secret: 619-987-4764, my name is Greg Olsen.

Any questions or problems with any of our products will be dealt with quickly. Without seeing the receiver(s) in person, I can only guess at the possible reasons for the tight receiver extension. The most probable are:

-Out of spec receiver extension coupled with a tight thread on the lower. Usually some grease will solve the problem.

Some insight on our manufacturing process and manufacturing in general. We make our lowers to tight tollerances, usually much tighter than "milspec". We use VLTOR, LMT and COLT receiver extensions. We know these to be correct in pitch and dimension.

The problem arises when you figure that the vast majority of receiver extensions come from places like dpms/armalite/bushmaster. Therefore we have decided that since those with true mil contract tubes are in the minority, we have opened the threads up slightly.

-What about our lowers having tight threads?

That was true on purpose, and can be amplified by the hard anodizing process. Many have remarked that they love our flat dark uniform finish, we get that finish because we spend roughly 30% longer in processing that finish. Hard type III anodize is just that; hard. It can build up in the valleys of the threads or in small openings like the detent for the bolt catch.

Again, I sure wish we had received an immediate call from the customer or his gunsmith. I'm horrified to think that a gunsmith would try to "force" something together if he thought it was out of sorts. And according to the customers post; especially when he could have ruined a lower receiver, which are not exactly plentiful or cheap these days??? Again, use the phone, fax, email or carrier pidgeon if need be, just contact us!

In short, making firearm parts to close tollerance is a fine balance, especially if you want to stand out from the those that have lions, snakes, and birds on their receivers. We have made several thousand receivers to date, many for high-end AR manufacurers under their own trade name. We have received excellent reports of fit/finish/function.

We are here to serve the California market first and foremost. Not with an okay product but an excellent one. We invite customer feedback. If you have a problem we are all ears, all you need to do pick up the phone. Your question or problem will generally not be solved in an online forum faster than it would by going to the source.

aplinker
12-17-2008, 2:01 PM
KD is good people and that's the kind of response I would expect.

KD, don't worry about this thread. It's not intended, nor does it look like, people are "badmouthing" KD lowers. They're simply wondering if they're doing something wrong.

Thanks for showing up to help them.

Here are some quick and kinda crappy snapshots of the Magpul trigger guard on my Kaiser lower. I'll take more detailed ones later tonight.

Note: its kinda confusing in the pics on what i filed down, I should've taken a side photo. The problem was the trigger guard didnt have enough clearance to line the holes up because the ear on the lower seemed bigger than normal and in the way. the first pic shows a brand new trigger guard (courtesy of MP website). I circled in red what i filed down/back. Hope this helps!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/skale240/MPTriggerGuard.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/skale240/DSC03522.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/skale240/DSC03524.jpg

You installed the triggerguard in reverse. Back first, then front.

skale240
12-17-2008, 2:49 PM
KD is good people and that's the kind of response I would expect.

KD, don't worry about this thread. It's not intended, nor does it look like, people are "badmouthing" KD lowers. They're simply wondering if they're doing something wrong.

Thanks for showing up to help them.



You installed the triggerguard in reverse. Back first, then front.

ucla,

I did install it back first (roll pin) then front (allen screw). I took off the allen screw to show the other guy what part I had filed down. Am I missing something here?

KD, Please don't take any of my posts as complaints. It's like ucla said, we all wondered if we were doing something wrong rather than badmouthing. Yes, I did notice the tight fit all around but in no way was I complaining. Your lowers are some of the best I've seen and I'll definitely be buying more from you. Thanks for showing you concern, it really means a lot to us calgunners!

aplinker
12-17-2008, 3:12 PM
Then I don't understand why you filed where you did.

They're a ***** to put in, but they've fit in all of mine.

alleyehave
12-17-2008, 3:31 PM
I will try mine again tonight, it doesn't help that I dont have a proper roll pin punch, but does everybody? haha

skale240
12-17-2008, 3:53 PM
Then I don't understand why you filed where you did.

They're a ***** to put in, but they've fit in all of mine.

Sorry bad angle on the pics. I took them quick when leaving for work. I should've shown a side shot to show where I actually filed. Thats why I found a pic of the trigger guard and circled in red where I did file to give an idea. I'll take better pics when I get home.

I've also installed a bunch of these and this was the first time it didn't fit right.

skale240
12-17-2008, 3:55 PM
I will try mine again tonight, it doesn't help that I dont have a proper roll pin punch, but does everybody? haha

I'll have better pics for you later on tonight.

norcalhunter1
12-17-2008, 4:09 PM
I got a call from someone saying that there was a calguns thread of complaints about our lower receivers. Sure enough, I scroll through the board and find this.

Before I address the problem I'd like to ask why I have not received a call from the customer or his gunsmith that had the problem??? My direct line is no secret: 619-987-4764, my name is Greg Olsen.

Any questions or problems with any of our products will be dealt with quickly. Without seeing the receiver(s) in person, I can only guess at the possible reasons for the tight receiver extension. The most probable are:

-Out of spec receiver extension coupled with a tight thread on the lower. Usually some grease will solve the problem.

Some insight on our manufacturing process and manufacturing in general. We make our lowers to tight tollerances, usually much tighter than "milspec". We use VLTOR, LMT and COLT receiver extensions. We know these to be correct in pitch and dimension.

The problem arises when you figure that the vast majority of receiver extensions come from places like dpms/armalite/bushmaster. Therefore we have decided that since those with true mil contract tubes are in the minority, we have opened the threads up slightly.

-What about our lowers having tight threads?

That was true on purpose, and can be amplified by the hard anodizing process. Many have remarked that they love our flat dark uniform finish, we get that finish because we spend roughly 30% longer in processing that finish. Hard type III anodize is just that; hard. It can build up in the valleys of the threads or in small openings like the detent for the bolt catch.

Again, I sure wish we had received an immediate call from the customer or his gunsmith. I'm horrified to think that a gunsmith would try to "force" something together if he thought it was out of sorts. And according to the customers post; especially when he could have ruined a lower receiver, which are not exactly plentiful or cheap these days??? Again, use the phone, fax, email or carrier pidgeon if need be, just contact us!

In short, making firearm parts to close tollerance is a fine balance, especially if you want to stand out from the those that have lions, snakes, and birds on their receivers. We have made several thousand receivers to date, many for high-end AR manufacurers under their own trade name. We have received excellent reports of fit/finish/function.

We are here to serve the California market first and foremost. Not with an okay product but an excellent one. We invite customer feedback. If you have a problem we are all ears, all you need to do pick up the phone. Your question or problem will generally not be solved in an online forum faster than it would by going to the source.

I have Two of your lowers and have two more on the way....And the two I have are Great no problems what so ever. :D

10ring45
12-17-2008, 5:01 PM
RE: Kaiserworks

I did not want you to think I was unhappy with the lower, the lower in question was not mine but I have ordered and dros'd three of yours and I am overall very happy with the fit and finish but had some concern. My gunsmith friend was able to get the buffer tube off and did no damage to the lower and he was being careful, he is extremely busy as a dealer/smith not to mention it was a Sunday and it was a quick glance we spent about 30 minutes looking at it and taking measurements. Just to let you know I have forwarded in an email what you have posted so that he can check it out and probably have his customer contact you or he will do it.

I apologize if my first post came off a little warmer than it should have that was not the intention.

PIRATE14
12-17-2008, 6:00 PM
I got a call from someone saying that there was a calguns thread of complaints about our lower receivers. Sure enough, I scroll through the board and find this.

Before I address the problem I'd like to ask why I have not received a call from the customer or his gunsmith that had the problem??? My direct line is no secret: 619-987-4764, my name is Greg Olsen.



Welcome to the internet and the BLACK RIFLE ARENA.....just be glad it isn't ARFCOM.....:43:

ifishinxs
12-17-2008, 8:17 PM
Thats what I'm talking about!. A local builder who stands by the product. Thanks Greg for clearing things up and explaining a little about your great product.

I see another KD lower in my future or two..:D

alleyehave
12-17-2008, 10:24 PM
I filed the same area of my trigger guard and it fit like a glove. I posted a thread about the trouble I was having with the Magpul trigger guard some time back and multiple people responded with similar problems and various lowers were mentioned, so this is obviously NOT a KD problem and not necessarily a MP problem either. It took me all of 1 minute to file, 5 minutes to fix with black marker and let dry...no complaints here.

People ask me where the hell I got an OLL that says San Diego on it everytime I go to the range...they look at me funny when I tell them my basement. Then I tell them truth. I've spread the word about KD OLLs to many people and it definitely is a great lower.

Seesm
12-17-2008, 11:13 PM
Greg great reply. I need to get a few OLLs so I will call and order from you maybe whne they come down a little in price...

Thanks

slick_711
12-17-2008, 11:29 PM
... everytime I go to the range...

Is that the rifle I was admiring the other day at ASC? ;)

I'm not one of the ones who would have asked you where you got it, but I did just recently fondle a KD lower than had been built up with a DD upper.

I'm personally waiting to pick up a handful of these lowers, and can't wait to build them up! Just waiting for my guy to let me know when I can have them.

I can testify to the quality and attention to detail Greg & KD put in though. I've toured the facilities (very impressive) and spoken with them on a number of occasions. Great guys to deal with. And really, how could you beat a lower with your hometown's name on it AND and a logo that is a tribute to the strength of American industrialism and military might? :D

alleyehave
12-17-2008, 11:35 PM
Is that the rifle I was admiring the other day at ASC? ;)

Haha, coulda been me...I was there less than a week ago with my girlfriend, first time she shot it. She's shot shotguns, pistols in 4-5 different calibers and bolt action rifles, but she loves loves shooting the AR, she wants me to build her a pink AR. I'm fence-sitting on ethics and how hot it'd be if she had an AR, haha

skale240
12-17-2008, 11:45 PM
I filed the same area of my trigger guard and it fit like a glove. I posted a thread about the trouble I was having with the Magpul trigger guard some time back and multiple people responded with similar problems and various lowers were mentioned, so this is obviously NOT a KD problem and not necessarily a MP problem either. It took me all of 1 minute to file, 5 minutes to fix with black marker and let dry...no complaints here.

People ask me where the hell I got an OLL that says San Diego on it everytime I go to the range...they look at me funny when I tell them my basement. Then I tell them truth. I've spread the word about KD OLLs to many people and it definitely is a great lower.

I was gonna take and post more detailed pics but had to clear some room for my safe thats arriving tomorrow...woohoo can't wait. Well glad you were able to file it down and get it to fit!

Funny guys, I shoot at ASC all the time. I always wonder if the guys i'm shooting next to are calgunners!

slick_711
12-17-2008, 11:47 PM
I was gonna take and post more detailed pics but had to clear some room for my safe thats arriving tomorrow...woohoo can't wait. Well glad you were able to file it down and get it to fit!

Funny guys, I shoot at ASC all the time. I always wonder if the guys i'm shooting next to are calgunners!

One of the guys behind the counter is. ;)

He rarely identifies himself as such though (here or there) so he doesn't know any of you in person.

Alleyehave, it is a very nice rifle, you are indeed the guy I was thinking of.

alleyehave
12-18-2008, 12:05 AM
I was gonna take and post more detailed pics but had to clear some room for my safe thats arriving tomorrow...woohoo can't wait. Well glad you were able to file it down and get it to fit!

Funny guys, I shoot at ASC all the time. I always wonder if the guys i'm shooting next to are calgunners!

Hey, thanks for the pictures. It made it much easier than the original plan I had. So thanks!

alleyehave
12-18-2008, 12:06 AM
Alleyehave, it is a very nice rifle, you are indeed the guy I was thinking of.

Thanks! The one problem I have with it so far...it will always need something :) But that's a good problem...