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x-ring
12-16-2008, 6:54 PM
I've got a pre-ban ("registered") HBAR Colt AR .223 match rifle. I'm also left handed.

Trying to find definitive reading (LAW) on changing the upper to a STAG 6HL (their new Varminter is very accurate). It's also chambered in 5.56 instead of .223 so I can shoot milsurp ammo, etc.

Unlike bolt rifles (as you know) the receiver has both the serno AND the caliber listed on it.

Anyone direct me toward a reliable source for this? Thanks in advance...

frigginchi
12-16-2008, 6:59 PM
You can put any upper you want on a Registered AW. No barrels under 16 inches tho.

goober
12-16-2008, 7:00 PM
You can put any upper you want on a Registered AW. No barrels under 16 inches tho.

yup

x-ring
12-16-2008, 7:04 PM
Thanks guys...

aplinker
12-17-2008, 7:23 AM
Further, you can also have any and all features on that rifle now (flash hider, collapsible stock, bayonet lug, etc) since the federal AWB has sunset.

Omega13device
12-17-2008, 10:43 AM
Your Colt upper is chambered in 5.56 anyway, btw. Look at the stamping towards the front of the barrel. That's what tells you the type of ammo for which your barrel is chambered, not the marking on the lower.

The caliber markings on the lower do not create any restrictions on what caliber upper you can put on it. You must always go by what is stamped on the barrel.

97F1504RAD
12-17-2008, 6:16 PM
OK i just got really confused. .223 and 5.56 are the same? So the question confuse me. At least i hope so considering i have been shooting both in the same gun for years.

joemama
12-17-2008, 6:32 PM
^no 5.56 has higher pressures and shouldnt be shot in a barrel marked .223

97F1504RAD
12-18-2008, 8:14 AM
^no 5.56 has higher pressures and shouldnt be shot in a barrel marked .223


In a hunting style bolt action i could understand that. But in his situation is it not the same since it is a AR15? I mean in his owners manual I am pretty certain it says it shoots 223 and 5.56.

One more thing if it is so different why then do most ammo places that sell ammo list it as 223/5.56?

Here are a few Examples

223 / 5.56 - 55 GRAIN FULL METAL JACKET
BRAND NEW - BOXER PRIMED
RELOADABLE - NON CORROSIVE
MADE BY PRIVI PARTIZAN IN SERBIA




.223, 5.56 Lake City SAW PACK
Linked 4-M855 to 1-M856 w/Tracer 4:1

This is US Military, Lake City manufactured, surplus ammunition for the Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) M249 , VERY limited quantity that won't be available again.

Inside each sealed can are 4 drums with 200 rounds in each drum - 800 ROUNDS PER CAN



5.56 / 223 Federal Lake City XM193A 55 GRAIN FMJ
XM193A ON STRIPPER CLIPS

This is Federal Lake City .223 / 5.56 XM193A 55gr. FMJ ammo. MANUFACTURED by Lake City US Military M193 specs.

BroncoBob
12-18-2008, 8:30 AM
RRA states that with their Wylde barrels you can shoot either.

The .223 Wylde chamber was designed as a match chambering for semi-automatic rifles. It will accomodate both .223 Rem and 5.56mm NATO ammunition. It is relieved in the case body to aid in extraction and features a shorter throat for improved accuracy.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/popup.cfm?type=t&id=1

cgseanp1
12-18-2008, 8:34 AM
In a hunting style bolt action i could understand that. But in his situation is it not the same since it is a AR15? I mean in his owners manual I am pretty certain it says it shoots 223 and 5.56.

One more thing if it is so different why then do most ammo places that sell ammo list it as 223/5.56?

Here are a few Examples

223 / 5.56 - 55 GRAIN FULL METAL JACKET
BRAND NEW - BOXER PRIMED
RELOADABLE - NON CORROSIVE
MADE BY PRIVI PARTIZAN IN SERBIA




.223, 5.56 Lake City SAW PACK
Linked 4-M855 to 1-M856 w/Tracer 4:1

This is US Military, Lake City manufactured, surplus ammunition for the Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) M249 , VERY limited quantity that won't be available again.

Inside each sealed can are 4 drums with 200 rounds in each drum - 800 ROUNDS PER CAN



5.56 / 223 Federal Lake City XM193A 55 GRAIN FMJ
XM193A ON STRIPPER CLIPS

This is Federal Lake City .223 / 5.56 XM193A 55gr. FMJ ammo. MANUFACTURED by Lake City US Military M193 specs.

From what I understand, a barrel for 5.56 can safely shoot 223, but a barrel for 223 shouldn't shoot 5.56.

ohsmily
12-18-2008, 9:14 AM
OK i just got really confused. .223 and 5.56 are the same? So the question confuse me. At least i hope so considering i have been shooting both in the same gun for years.

Google is your friend. It is amazing what you can find on the internet.

cgseanp1
12-18-2008, 9:22 AM
Google is your friend. It is amazing what you can find on the internet.

The thing is, this IS also the internet. People use these sites for information, just like someone like you might use Google.. I would rather have someone tell me something on a site like this, than google it and read some article that had been written by some other random person. Either way, it doesn't hurt to try google too:)

aplinker
12-18-2008, 10:31 AM
From what I understand, a barrel for 5.56 can safely shoot 223, but a barrel for 223 shouldn't shoot 5.56.

Almost all modern barrels can shoot both.

It's always best to check your manual and/or call the manufacturer.

Gio
12-18-2008, 11:59 AM
Man I was geting ready to panic for a second, lol! I am still a n00b to the whole AR game, even though I ma piecing together my first AR right now. I bought a case of .223 55 grain for my AR. The barrel is a Mil Spec 5.56 with a 1/7 RHT, I was looking for 5.56 ammo and .223 always pops up. So I went ahead and ordered the .223 since it is the same that the Mil uses lol! Okay enough of my n00biness!

-Gio

97F1504RAD
12-18-2008, 2:35 PM
Man I was geting ready to panic for a second, lol! I am still a n00b to the whole AR game, even though I ma piecing together my first AR right now. I bought a case of .223 55 grain for my AR. The barrel is a Mil Spec 5.56 with a 1/7 RHT, I was looking for 5.56 ammo and .223 always pops up. So I went ahead and ordered the .223 since it is the same that the Mil uses lol! Okay enough of my n00biness!

-Gio

Do not feel bad like i said I have been using both types of ammo interchangeably for around 20 plus years and this was the first time I had ever heard this said.


Google is your friend. It is amazing what you can find on the internet.



My hopes would be that a google search would lead me back here and I would hope since this is a internet forums related to guns some would simply answer the question here.


Also if I am not mistaken his manual for the Colt says something to the effect of magazines for the .223(5.56) caliber ammunition have a capacity of 8 rounds but have a 5 round limiter for hunting. That to me says it shoots both

x-ring
12-18-2008, 7:17 PM
Your Colt upper is chambered in 5.56 anyway, btw. Look at the stamping towards the front of the barrel. That's what tells you the type of ammo for which your barrel is chambered, not the marking on the lower.

The caliber markings on the lower do not create any restrictions on what caliber upper you can put on it. You must always go by what is stamped on the barrel.


Thanks for the info...

With all respect I want to make one comment. And yes it's probably beating a dead horse but many on the forum are new to the shooting sports and if ONE person reads this and says "wow, I didn't know that"...then it's worth the time.

It's chambered in .223 (not 5.56) and it's a match rifle with match tolerances in the chamber (throat). BIG DIFFERENCE 'twixt the two.

This isn't directed specifically at the author of the above post...but I hear/see so many people talk and act as if they're the same round and they're not. Shooting .223 in a 5.56 rifle isn't a problem, but going the other way can be a BIG problem.

The primary difference between .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45 mm is that .223 is loaded to lower pressures and velocities compared to 5.56 mm.

.223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 mm chambered gun, but the reverse can be an unsafe combination. The additional pressure created by 5.56 mm ammo will frequently cause over-pressure problems such as difficult extraction, flowing brass, or popped primers, but in extreme cases, could damage or destroy the rifle.

Chambers cut to .223 Remington specifications have a shorter leade (throat) area as well as slightly shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 mm "military" chamber specs, which contributes to the pressure issues.

Some have observed up to 20,000 psi higher pressure when shooting a 5.56 round in a rifle chambered for .223. That's the "proof" pressure limit (or close to it) on EVERY round...

...and obviously VERY dangerous. I know there are doubters out there. You may be reading this and telling yourself it ain't no big deal.

You may have gotten away with it for a while, but sooner or later something will fail.

Dead horse is now thoroghly flogged...

Gio
12-18-2008, 7:23 PM
^

Good stuff there x-ring, see I learned a lot from a simple yet most made mistake by a lot of people out there. I am glad we have forums like this that have infinite amounts of wisdom and also stupidity so that others can learn either way :D

-Gio

97F1504RAD
12-18-2008, 7:33 PM
Yep I agree.^^^^

So I have another question on this matter. Not to beat a dead horse any longer, but If i am not mistaken the Colt HBAR says .223 on the lower but there are no markings on the barrel. At least none that are visible. So how can we truly find out if it will handle the 5.56 safely. It lists it in the owners manual that the magzines take the 5.56 but no where does it mention not to shoot 5.56 in the firearm. Also are most of the new Ca. Legal AR's being sold in the 5.56 form or the .223 and how can we again be certain if no barrel markings?

ar15barrels
12-18-2008, 7:52 PM
It's chambered in .223 (not 5.56) and it's a match rifle with match tolerances in the chamber (throat). BIG DIFFERENCE 'twixt the two.

This isn't directed specifically at the author of the above post...but I hear/see so many people talk and act as if they're the same round and they're not. Shooting .223 in a 5.56 rifle isn't a problem, but going the other way can be a BIG problem.

The primary difference between .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45 mm is that .223 is loaded to lower pressures and velocities compared to 5.56 mm.

So you have a Colt Match HBAR Elite with the 24" stainless barrel?
That's the only one Colt ever did with a 223 chamber.
The rest are 5.56's...

And US Mil-spec 5.56 ammo is loaded to 55,000 PSI, the same as 223 ammo made to SAAMI specs. ;)
Lookup the Mil-specs in TM 43-0001-27 (http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM43-0001-27.pdf)
M193 is on page 154 and M855 is on page 170.

Only foreign-made NATO spec 5.56 is going to be higher pressure and the spec on that is 62,000 PSI.

ar15barrels
12-18-2008, 7:59 PM
If i am not mistaken the Colt HBAR says .223 on the lower but there are no markings on the barrel.

If there are no markings on the barrel, it's not a colt.

Colt barrels are well marked, usually something like this:

http://biggerhammer.net/ar15/barrelsbolts/cmp_556_nato_19_hbar.jpg

or this:

http://biggerhammer.net/ar15/barrelsbolts/cmp_556_nato_17.pg.jpg

Seesm
12-18-2008, 8:06 PM
In that Colt from all I can find I would say "Just run the .223 to be safe, even though you have run the 5.56 also" I will in any builds I do only do the 5.56 to leave some options open.

So if you swap uppers ever... you can shoot both cuz your new upper will be the 5.56 if you order a 5.56 :)

97F1504RAD
12-18-2008, 8:15 PM
If there are no markings on the barrel, it's not a colt.

Colt barrels are well marked, usually something like this:

http://biggerhammer.net/ar15/barrelsbolts/cmp_556_nato_19_hbar.jpg

or this:

http://biggerhammer.net/ar15/barrelsbolts/cmp_556_nato_17.pg.jpg

Would these markings be under the handguards?

And thanks for posting this info.

ar15barrels
12-18-2008, 8:48 PM
Would these markings be under the handguards?

And thanks for posting this info.

Always forward of the front sight base at 12:00.
The marked area is about 3" long so you won't miss it.

Only the oldest military colt barrels, say from 1963 to 1970 are not marked for chambering and those were all 20" A1 barrels.

97F1504RAD
12-18-2008, 8:49 PM
Always forward of the front sight base at 12:00.

Only the oldest military colt barrels, say from 1963 to 1970 are not marked for chambering and those were all 20" A1 barrels.

Thank you very much for this info.

ohsmily
12-18-2008, 10:41 PM
I guess you don't have a colt upper.

Omega13device
12-18-2008, 11:12 PM
Thanks for the info...

With all respect I want to make one comment. And yes it's probably beating a dead horse but many on the forum are new to the shooting sports and if ONE person reads this and says "wow, I didn't know that"...then it's worth the time.

It's chambered in .223 (not 5.56) and it's a match rifle with match tolerances in the chamber (throat). BIG DIFFERENCE 'twixt the two.
Yeah I know the difference between the two calibers, you didn't say it was the Match HBAR Elite so I just assumed you had the Match Target HBAR which is chambered in 5.56 like almost every other Colt EBR. Understandable mixup.

Anyhoo...Regardless of my assumption about YOUR rifle, anyone reading my advice will be in good shape because I said you should always work from the stamp on the barrel.

97F1504RAD
12-19-2008, 7:44 AM
Great info in this thread thanks to all who contributed it gave me info that i never knew so if it has helped anyone else then i say good deal.