PDA

View Full Version : I just got screwed HARD by the DOJ and Ammo Bros (mostly the DOJ)


jumbopanda
12-15-2008, 8:19 PM
I was going to buy a PSL from a seller in Ohio and do the transfer to Ammo Bros. The gun was going to be shipped with the stock removed and shipped separately. Everything was fine until I got this PM from the seller on AKfiles.com

Have some bad news for you.

California Department of Justice contacted my FFL Dealer, I assume from the paperwork he had to submit to them, and requested information on why the thumbhole stock was not shipping with the gun. The FFL informed them it was shipping seperately, and not to your FFL in california. They informed him it that if the thumbhole stock was shipped in this manner, it could then be considered a conspiracy to reconstruct and transport a Assault weapon in the state of California for all parties involved.

My FFL called me, stating he wasn't going to take part in anything illegal (keep in mind this is the only FFL that was willing to ship the weapon to your FFL in my area, noone else would touch california). I told him that it was legal to ship the gun to the FFL dealer at your location, and that dealer had to mandatory send me or put on a kit that permanteley fixed the magazine to the magazine well, and it wouldnt matter if the thumbhole stock was on or off the gun at that point, because it was then not considered a Assault rifle.

I called the Department of Justice myself, and they also informed me that it wasnt mandatory for FFL's in your location to require the magazine well to be permanteley attached before they turn the gun over to the buyer. They did confirm that the thumbhole stock removed would make it legit to ship the gun to your FFL without the mag well being permanteley attached, however, they said to then ship the thumbhole stock seperately, under knowledge that the magazine well was or was not permanetely attached by the dealer or you, is then consider a possible conspiracy to recreate and transport an assault weapon in your state. They said I would need to talk to your FFL.

I called your FFL, and they stated they indeed could send me a device that allows me to permanently attached the magazine to the gun, and i could even ship it to them with the thumbhole stock still attached with this kit installed.

However, your FFL asked why I was asking about all of this, and I informed them that I was asked by the California DOJ to call. Your FFL dealer put the nail in the coffin by stating that you had no intention of buying the magazine permanent fixture (as it was offered to you when you inquired about the transfer procedure), and that after hearing from my FFL about the attempt to ship the thumbhole stock to a different address, they presumed you meant to reattach it without complying to the fixed magazine they offered to make the gun compliant.

At that point, your FFL stated the deal was off, they would not except the shipment, and my FFL has declared the same per suggestion of the California Department of Justice, who are now aware of the situation.

At this point, the only alternative I have left, and I am extremely sorry, is to refund your $725, and not ship the weapon to avoid any problems with your Department of Justice.

Please email me the paypal address you would like for me to send it back to.

Thank you,
Justin

So as you guys can see, the DOJ is spreading some EPIC FUD, and some people at Ammo Bros doesn't seem to know the law well enough. I need some advice on what the best course of action is right now. While I am upset, I can forgive Ammo Bros for making a mistake, but I'm MAJORLY pissed at the DOJ right now.

JeffM
12-15-2008, 8:27 PM
Interfering with interstate commerce is a crime IIRC.

I would pay to see a ATF vs. DOJ cage match.

Captain Evilstomper
12-15-2008, 8:28 PM
do you aready have a Raddlock or something? why did you not want the maglock device?
BTW i thought that there was no constructive possesion of an assault weapon? so if not, is the DoJ overstepping?

mblat
12-15-2008, 8:34 PM
It almost seems that AmmoBros people have a problem with PSLs...... Man, just use different FFL.
ColdWarShooters come to mind....

savageevo
12-15-2008, 8:34 PM
we need to get the right people on this. that is total bs. I hope you get this resolved. you should have used bsp.

Solidmch
12-15-2008, 8:36 PM
I would want a copy of that letter sent to them from DOJ>>>

The SoCal Gunner
12-15-2008, 8:37 PM
Advice, don't get your money back through paypal because they'll take a good percentage of the money.

jumbopanda
12-15-2008, 8:41 PM
Advice, don't get your money back through paypal because they'll take a good percentage of the money.

Well actually the seller can issue a refund, which refunds all Paypal fees as well. But before I do that, I want to see if I can straighten this thing out. I just hope the seller and his FFL aren't already sick of all this BS.

jumbopanda
12-15-2008, 8:42 PM
do you aready have a Raddlock or something? why did you not want the maglock device?
BTW i thought that there was no constructive possesion of an assault weapon? so if not, is the DoJ overstepping?

DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM!? :p

JeffM
12-15-2008, 8:45 PM
DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM!? :p

:rofl2:

EBR Works
12-15-2008, 8:46 PM
Send one of your excellent jumbopanda mag locks to the originating FFL, have them install it and have them send it to another OLL friendly FFL with the stock attached. Your lock works perfectly on my PSL. I don't understand why you, of all people, did not do this in the first place. :confused:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/impactco/right-1.jpg

C.G.
12-15-2008, 8:47 PM
Something is not right about this. There is no way that the DOJ or actually BOF, would know that the rifle would have a thumbhole stock from the DROS. One of the FFLs either called the DOJ and asked the wrong questions or talked to the wrong field agent or decided not to do business and that was the excuse.

The SoCal Gunner
12-15-2008, 9:01 PM
Well actually the seller can issue a refund, which refunds all Paypal fees as well. But before I do that, I want to see if I can straighten this thing out. I just hope the seller and his FFL aren't already sick of all this BS.

That's fine then. I wasn't sure if you paid the seller via paypal since his message asked you which email you wanted the refund sent to.

Only other suggestion would be to try Ades but from the looks of it the seller's FFL already has a certain impression of you thanks to the CA DOJ and Ammo Bros.

Captain Evilstomper
12-15-2008, 9:09 PM
DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM!? :p

HA! wasn't paying attention i guess.:), did you tell them that you already had a maglock?

yellowfin
12-15-2008, 9:11 PM
Sue the DOJ in a few weeks and take them to the cleaners. They owe society a few million to pay for their sins.

jumbopanda
12-15-2008, 9:12 PM
HA! wasn't paying attention i guess.:), did you tell them that you already had a maglock?

Actually one guy from Ammo Bros told me that I had to have a mag lock on the PSL (not true), and I called them later about just sending them one of mine and he said that just separating the stock would be OK (true).

M. Sage
12-15-2008, 9:12 PM
Something is not right about this. There is no way that the DOJ or actually BOF, would know that the rifle would have a thumbhole stock from the DROS. One of the FFLs either called the DOJ and asked the wrong questions or talked to the wrong field agent or decided not to do business and that was the excuse.

I agree. Something smells funny.

scoutpup99
12-15-2008, 9:14 PM
why is an out of state ffl involved in the transfer to begin with? Find a new receiving dealer who accepts shipments from non-ffls.

CHS
12-15-2008, 9:15 PM
why is an out of state ffl involved in the transfer to begin with? Find a new receiving dealer who accepts shipments from non-ffls.

Not all senders are comfortable with this. It's not just the receiving FFL's.

DDT
12-15-2008, 9:15 PM
any chance the seller is capable of disassembling the weapon himself? Have him send everything but the lower to you directly and don't tell his (new) FFL anything other than he is selling a lower.

jumbopanda
12-15-2008, 9:17 PM
Not all senders are comfortable with this. It's not just the receiving FFL's.

No this seller is fine with it. It's what we planned on doing before I learned that Ammo Bros wouldn't receive from non-FFLs.

Wild Squid
12-15-2008, 9:21 PM
Something is not right about this. There is no way that the DOJ or actually BOF, would know that the rifle would have a thumbhole stock from the DROS. One of the FFLs either called the DOJ and asked the wrong questions or talked to the wrong field agent or decided not to do business and that was the excuse.

I have to agree with this also.

gmcal
12-15-2008, 9:24 PM
Maybe have the sellers FFL ship the rifle to Freakshow, then have Freakshow send the rifle to a friendly FFL here?

tenpercentfirearms
12-15-2008, 9:27 PM
Moral of the story, don't use any FFL that requires you to ship the firearm through another FFL. It is a waste and uncessary and in this case cost you a buy.

Someone at the gun shop must have called the DOJ. Otherwise there is no way the DOJ would have known unless they happened to be listening to phone conversations or watching e-mails.

Find another transfer dealer.

jumbopanda
12-15-2008, 9:42 PM
Moral of the story, don't use any FFL that requires you to ship the firearm through another FFL. It is a waste and uncessary and in this case cost you a buy.

Someone at the gun shop must have called the DOJ. Otherwise there is no way the DOJ would have known unless they happened to be listening to phone conversations or watching e-mails.

Find another transfer dealer.

Yeah, I hate dealing with incompetence, and the more parties I involve in the deal, the more I have to worry about someone FAILING.

blackberg
12-15-2008, 9:56 PM
...or the seller found someone that will pay more for it...
I dont know about ammobros sometimes and their interpretation of the law, I prefer to drive 30 minutes more and go elsewhere, like entreprise

-bb

Dark&Good
12-15-2008, 10:10 PM
That's right, smells funny. I won't exclude completely that some people in some companies have some crazy considerations and sometimes work against the "greatest good"... I'm giving this a chance of 2.5%-15%.

What I just said could be oversimplified to "a small percentage of the human race is evil".

bwiese
12-15-2008, 10:15 PM
I'd really like some names - specifically the DOJ clerks that spread this BS.

This is a violation by DOJ of PLCAA, and there are some Heller overtones.

DNA
12-15-2008, 10:16 PM
Well heck, since you're using AmmoBros that means you're somewhat close to the area, so why not use Entreprise (provided the mag lock is attached) in Irwindale? A definite plus would be all the neat FALs and other black rifles when you go in to do paper work.

Dan

p.s. here's a quick link to the info reference EBRs being shipped. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=122254

Hoop
12-15-2008, 11:10 PM
Wait, they wouldn't take delivery because the stock was in one box and the rest of the gun in the other or what? None of that makes any sense to me.

Fate
12-15-2008, 11:15 PM
I'd really like some names - specifically the DOJ clerks that spread this BS.

This is a violation by DOJ of PLCAA, and there are some Heller overtones.
Sick 'em! :D

Matt C
12-15-2008, 11:30 PM
Honestly Ammo bros are helpful folks and usually keep a good stock.

artherd
12-15-2008, 11:57 PM
This kind of thing is going to come back on DOJ.

Matt C
12-16-2008, 12:01 AM
This kind of thing is going to come back on DOJ.

We have known about them doing this for some time though....

Dark&Good
12-16-2008, 12:10 AM
Oh yeah? It just makes me KNOW that one of the 2.5-15% works there...
DOJ just got overly suspicious, possibly never had such thing before... Skip AmmoBrothers, dude, get a sane FFL.

Dark&Good
12-16-2008, 12:11 AM
Which doesn't make DOJ any better - they HAVE TO know the laws.

Frijolito1988
12-16-2008, 12:15 AM
No this seller is fine with it. It's what we planned on doing before I learned that Ammo Bros wouldn't receive from non-FFLs.

which is why i use entreprise, they accept from non ffl with just a copy of a license. easy cheesy. and cheaper than ammo bros, they charge $70 for transfer fees and dros. Just ship him a magazine lock , and use entrperise and be done with it.

shooterdave
12-16-2008, 12:20 AM
exactly besides entreprise is cheaper and dosen't pull shady bs and is way easier to deal with.

Dark&Good
12-16-2008, 12:41 AM
I still wouldn't let the illegal guys sleep well (DOJ and/or AmmoBros). Solve your transfer, but also solve the "legality" sh*t.

Dr. Peter Venkman
12-16-2008, 12:51 AM
exactly besides entreprise is cheaper and dosen't pull shady bs and is way easier to deal with.

Plus they'll pick you up.

Frijolito1988
12-16-2008, 12:54 AM
Plus they'll pick you up.

lol what?

aplinker
12-16-2008, 2:25 AM
You got screwed. I wouldn't trust Ammo Bros to know the muzzle end of a rifle from every interaction I've had with them.

Still, it did give us some comedy from someone asking why you don't need a mag lock. That might have to be filed in the "classic" file, especially since you advertise AK mag locks in your signature. :D

Try Tim at Fort Courage, James Maddux, etc.

Captain Evilstomper
12-16-2008, 2:42 AM
:kest::sleeping:You got screwed. I wouldn't trust Ammo Bros to know the muzzle end of a rifle from every interaction I've had with them.

Still, it did give us some comedy from someone asking why you don't need a mag lock. That might have to be filed in the "classic" file, especially since you advertise AK mag locks in your signature. :D

Try Tim at Fort Courage, James Maddux, etc.

TonyM
12-16-2008, 3:24 AM
I agree. Something smells funny.

I have to agree with this also.

Wait, they wouldn't take delivery because the stock was in one box and the rest of the gun in the other or what? None of that makes any sense to me.

The quote appears to be from the seller, and DROS did not happen yet. I read it as someone at the DOJ decided to question a CLFC letter before it was approved for shipment to CA.

:inquis:

Vin496
12-16-2008, 8:21 AM
lol what?

LOL, this is funny.

Enterprise Car Rental , anyone?

Ford8N
12-16-2008, 4:04 PM
I'd really like some names - specifically the DOJ clerks that spread this BS.

This is a violation by DOJ of PLCAA, and there are some Heller overtones.


1000+

Get the names and out them. It seems the first big mistake is contacting the DOJ. When will this end.

Frijolito1988
12-16-2008, 5:27 PM
LOL, this is funny.

Enterprise Car Rental , anyone?

ohhh LOL im slow

sfwdiy
12-16-2008, 5:53 PM
do you aready have a Raddlock or something?

Funny.

Plus they'll pick you up.

Also funny.

This is a violation by DOJ of PLCAA, and there are some Heller overtones.

wtf is a PLCAA? I google it and all I get is the Professional Lawn Care Association of America. The fact that such a national association exists is also baffling to me.

--B

Salty
12-16-2008, 6:03 PM
They are acting as if you must for some reason buy all the parts for your gun building project at the same time from the same vendor to somehow ensure that you are building a legal gun.

This would be like requiring you to buy all the parts for your kit car or hot rod project at the same time from the same vendor so as to make sure (somehow?) that you were building a legal car.

We all know that there is no law against owning a pile of parts, it's all in how you put them together.

Anonymous Coward
12-16-2008, 6:17 PM
wtf is a PLCAA? I google it and all I get is the Professional Lawn Care Association of America. The fact that such a national association exists is also baffling to me.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act

gunsmith
12-16-2008, 11:46 PM
I couldn't get past first post.
"except" and "accept" are two ( no, not to or too )
different words with different meanings.
I wouldn't do any gun transaction with someone who doesn't know the difference between the two.

jumbopanda
12-17-2008, 12:00 AM
I couldn't get past first post.
"except" and "accept" are two ( no, not to or too )
different words with different meanings.
I wouldn't do any gun transaction with someone who doesn't know the difference between the two.

Probably the most useful post yet. :rolleyes:

aileron
12-17-2008, 5:15 AM
Because spelling brings out the best in every thread...

dawson8r
12-17-2008, 7:39 AM
This is also odd because the practice of shipping a completed off list firearm dissassembled has been going on for a couple years now. When I bought a Coharie CA94, the case, op-rod, stock, and trigger pack were sent directly to my house. The barrelled receiver was sent to the FFL. When I went to DROS the FFL just asked me if just the receiver was what I had purchased because he hadn't received 'em like that before. He asked if I had the rest of the parts then said, "Nevermind, its not my business and this is the numbered part" and we completed the transaction. That was almost 2 years ago. I started another thread about FFLs in the San Diego area requiring buyer to purchase some form of mag lock at time of transfer (event PPT of a stripped receiver). The rational behind it was that the FFL wanted a receipt showing sale of a mag lock with the paper work so if audited they could be covered if the buyer built an illegally configured firearm. Weird stuff going on out there.

EBR Works
12-17-2008, 8:09 AM
I couldn't get past first post.
"except" and "accept" are two ( no, not to or too )
different words with different meanings.
I wouldn't do any gun transaction with someone who doesn't know the difference between the two.

You're in the public school zone here.;)

It can sometimes be painful. Get used to it!

If you need help, I can translate for you!

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/impactco/jive.jpg

artherd
12-17-2008, 10:53 AM
I started another thread about FFLs in the San Diego area requiring buyer to purchase some form of mag lock at time of transfer (event PPT of a stripped receiver). The rational behind it was that the FFL wanted a receipt showing sale of a mag lock with the paper work so if audited they could be covered if the buyer built an illegally configured firearm. Weird stuff going on out there.

No FFL (or any other entity for that matter) has a duty to do this.

JeffM
12-17-2008, 10:56 AM
No FFL (or any other entity for that matter) has a duty to do this.

Doubt it has anything to do with a $en$e of duty.


Try finding a $5 gun lock at a shop similar to the ones at Walmart :rolleyes:

ptoguy2002
12-17-2008, 11:44 AM
I started another thread about FFLs in the San Diego area requiring buyer to purchase some form of mag lock at time of transfer (event PPT of a stripped receiver). The rational behind it was that the FFL wanted a receipt showing sale of a mag lock with the paper work so if audited they could be covered if the buyer built an illegally configured firearm. Weird stuff going on out there.

Ya know, I don't really have a problem with this one.
No, they don't have to do and maybe shouldn't in some cases.
BUT, if an FFL nowadays who is transfering EBRs is looking for a little CYA to make sure that the "Thats how I bought it." crap from somebody who made an illegal rifle doesn't come back to ruin him, I'm ok with it.
Its a little CYA for a EBR friendly FFL.

jumbopanda
12-17-2008, 1:06 PM
Well now I'm pretty much ****ED because even if he ships the gun out tomorrow, I won't be able to pick it up before I go back to school, which is 2 hours away from the FFL, thanks to the goddamn 10 day waiting period. Better yet, I don't have a car at school! Damn I'm ****ing pissed right now! Thank you Ammo Bros and the DOJ for wasting two weeks of my time! *******S!

EBR Works
12-17-2008, 1:20 PM
Have him ship it to Fort Courage Armory in Simi. If you are in SB, it's a lot closer.

aplinker
12-17-2008, 2:06 PM
Well now I'm pretty much ****ED because even if he ships the gun out tomorrow, I won't be able to pick it up before I go back to school, which is 2 hours away from the FFL, thanks to the goddamn 10 day waiting period. Better yet, I don't have a car at school! Damn I'm ****ing pissed right now! Thank you Ammo Bros and the DOJ for wasting two weeks of my time! *******S!

E, drop me a line. You know I'll help you out.

KDOFisch
12-17-2008, 2:35 PM
Ya know, I don't really have a problem with this one.
No, they don't have to do and maybe shouldn't in some cases.
BUT, if an FFL nowadays who is transfering EBRs is looking for a little CYA to make sure that the "Thats how I bought it." crap from somebody who made an illegal rifle doesn't come back to ruin him, I'm ok with it.
Its a little CYA for a EBR friendly FFL.

Big +1.

This is inconvenient, but it's also important to note that Ammo Bros is one of those (few) LA-area FFLs who unabashedly sell legally-configured EBRs. They might be cautious about this, even overly-so, because they know of the potential for any of the rifles to be misconfigured beyond their doors and knowledge. They probably also know that they're even more scrutinized than Ade's or Turner's because the majority of their sales come from EBRs and OLLs.

I know I sound like I'm really pushing for their defense, but if Ammo Bros doesn't want to do the transfer, maybe they have their reasons.

[/can of worms]:rolleyes:

Turbinator
12-17-2008, 2:54 PM
Well now I'm pretty much ****ED because even if he ships the gun out tomorrow, I won't be able to pick it up before I go back to school, which is 2 hours away from the FFL, thanks to the goddamn 10 day waiting period. Better yet, I don't have a car at school! Damn I'm ****ing pissed right now! Thank you Ammo Bros and the DOJ for wasting two weeks of my time! *******S!

It's a hassle, but get a gun friendly buddy from school to take a road trip with you to pick up your item when the wait is done.

Turby

jumbopanda
12-17-2008, 3:25 PM
Alright well I just spoke to Dustin from Ammo Bros and he's trying to make things right. He's gonna call the seller and see what happens. I was gonna just go to another FFL but if Ammo Bros wants to make things right I guess I'll give them another shot.

Sig226
12-17-2008, 3:35 PM
Alright well I just spoke to Dustin from Ammo Bros and he's trying to make things right.

Now thats a big +1. Hope he does...


I still won't shoot their reloads ever again though...:eek:

jumbopanda
12-17-2008, 4:02 PM
Alright so I guess everything's taken care of now, and the gun will be shipping out tomorrow. :D

Unfortunately I wasn't able to get the name of the DOJ rat that screwed me but oh well.