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View Full Version : Cost of CCW permit versus illegal carry.


nicki
12-15-2008, 11:22 AM
First I am not advocating for anyone to illegal carry, rather what I would like to look at is what is comapring the cost of getting a CCW versus the cost of carrying without a permit.

With the jails and prisons overloaded, the DA's are cutting deals on many criminal cases to clear the court calender and are saving jial time for dangerous criminals or people they want to make a public example out of.

In theory, a CCW permit should cost 200 dollars plus training costs. Some of us will have to pay an additional 200 dollars for a psych eval(I'm expecting that one). So we have a cost to get a CCW of say 300 to 600 dollars which is good for 2 years.

Now, if you are carrying without a license, and it is a registered gun, you are looking at a misdemeanor for the first offense.

I would imagine that alot of people in places like LA meet this profile.

How are DA's really dealing with the issue of people carrying without licenses, or are cops just confiscating guns with no paperwork.

If we found out and documented that overall the DA's wouldn't or couldn't effectively prosecute illegal carry violations, it would improve our ablity to win in the court of public opinion on going to a "objective and reasonable standards, equal issue" CCW system.

"Shall Issue" is a term I think we should get away from since it implies that everyone could be carrying guns.

Nicki

Ironchef
12-15-2008, 11:26 AM
Well, I think you answered the real question in that cost of doing it illegally is the loss of your gun..and the misdemeanor. So if you have a cheap throw away gun (beat up old glock you don't care about rather than your nice 1911), and you don't mind losing your gun rights for a while...that's the cost. (or do you not lose gun rights for a misdemeanor?)

GMONEY
12-15-2008, 11:29 AM
Yes it's a misdemeanor for the 1st offense, but if you get caught again...

FELONY and well you know what that means...


NO GUNS... So really is it worth it? Not for me!

I don't think the CCW training is anywhere near close to the amount of training you really need to carry concealed. Espicially since most ranges won't let you draw from a holster. :rolleyes:

DDT
12-15-2008, 11:38 AM
Do misdemeanor firearms violations also cause loss of gun rights or only DV?

Beelzy
12-15-2008, 11:59 AM
Misdemeanor is cheaper.

First offense with a gun should be a "carrying a loaded firearm" conviction, then the second offense is still a misdemeanor.
If you let them convict on a CCW them you blew it.

If you let the court convict on CCW then the second time its a felony.

If you get the misdemeanor conviction, you cannot be "seen" in posession
of a firearm, but you can still own them through the probation period.

GuyW
12-15-2008, 12:20 PM
My bet is they'll fully prosecute a non-criminal CCW violator for loaded-carry and concealed-carry...its a political thing - such a person is an otherwise productive citizen with worrysome independent-thought processes, and must be slapped-down so that they will henceforth docilely remain on the plantation...

...on the other hand, a career criminal is bread-and-butter for the criminal justice system and all of its associated minions...crime pays...cops, judges, attorneys, court and parole employees, bail bondsmen, etc etc

...also, I think they can (will?) demand fines as well...

So...
arrest
bail
lost work
lost gun
fine
attorney
probation
a (minor) criminal record...

...these boys run a mean plantation...
.

Glock22Fan
12-15-2008, 12:43 PM
Usually I believe that it is two misdemeanors, carrying a concealed firearm and carrying a loaded firearm.

And, I think, it can become felonies if the firearm is not registered in your name.

AaronHorrocks
12-15-2008, 12:59 PM
Do all of that, and then risk your freedom to own a full-auto when you finally leave CA, because of CA's messed up laws?

No thanks.

oddball
12-15-2008, 1:27 PM
IMO, to illegally carry might be a short-term benefit, but in the long run, it is not worth the risk. No thanks, I will obey the law instead, screwed up as it is....

mblat
12-15-2008, 1:36 PM
Well..... I know of a person who is doing time (sixteen month, IIRC) after being caught second time for having loaded gun in his car.......
However he failed sobriety test both times...... I don't know if that makes it worse in the eyes of the law or not.

Meplat
12-15-2008, 3:21 PM
I did it frequently before I got my CCW. I am funny about things like that. If my intuition told me to carry on a given day I would not ignore it. Figured I'd rather burn my "freebee" (misdemeanor) than wish later that I had listened to my instincts. I figured I could cross the felony bridge when I came to it.

BTW, I was "caught" no less than three times carrying without a CCW and was never arrested or charged. As much as I dislike registration it helps when an officer runs a check and it comes back to you, plus you are fat and fifty and have a squeaky clean record. It also helps to live in the "other" California; I have no illusions about what would have happened if I had been in LA. Hell, I worry about the LA basin and the Bay Area WITH a CCW.

I wouldn't do it just to save money. The only reason for the extreme cost is that local departments are trying to use a means test as a filter. We need to address this along with other issues. My CCW cost around $150 total and renewal is a fraction of that. But, that's because our CLEO is trying to be fair and reasonable. Over half the cost is training.
I bet that 99 percent of the members here have more than one gun. Jesus said; “He that has no sward should sell his cloak and buy one.”

By the same token: If you have no permit, sell a gun and buy one. That is if you can get approved.

Disclaimer: Let it be known to all that I have not illegally carried since becoming a member of this forum.

Beelzy
12-15-2008, 3:42 PM
Well..... I know of a person who is doing time (sixteen month, IIRC) after being caught second time for having loaded gun in his car.......
However he failed sobriety test both times...... I don't know if that makes it worse in the eyes of the law or not.


LMAO! Oh yes, it makes a big difference if your a drunk with a gun. ;)

That 16 months isn't for the gun either. Second offense on a DUI is jail, the gun just gave him more time
to work on his college degree.

NineteenElev3n
12-15-2008, 3:54 PM
Usually I believe that it is two misdemeanors, carrying a concealed firearm and carrying a loaded firearm.

And, I think, it can become felonies if the firearm is not registered in your name.

That is true. To answer these questions, there is a book titled, "How to Own a Gun and Stay Out of Jail in California 2008".

Wild Squid
12-15-2008, 4:31 PM
If you do not foresee your life in imminent danger, it's probably best to follow the law in CA. But if you really see your life in physical danger, due to whatever unknown reason, only you can answer yourself whether it's worth it or not to carry illegally. I don't think it's ok to break the law carrying illegally, but like I said, the circumstances of your predicament and decision is something only you can answer.

greybeard
12-15-2008, 4:45 PM
I think, you need to include the cost of a lawyer to defend yourself against the charges if caught carrying without a ccw

hnoppenberger
12-15-2008, 9:52 PM
a 'loaded weapon carry' misdemeanor isnt a big deal

u lose no rights, it only becomes a problem if you have priors (as in hardened criminal)

besides, if your a law abiding citizen, then you will NEVER be searched by a cop, because u have no reason to be.

Meplat
12-15-2008, 10:30 PM
I disagree. My record is clean as the driven snow. I have a CCW and a 'Homeland security" Hazmat clearance on my class A commercial drivers licence. I have been "frisked" twice.:43:

a 'loaded weapon carry' misdemeanor isnt a big deal

u lose no rights, it only becomes a problem if you have priors (as in hardened criminal)

besides, if your a law abiding citizen, then you will NEVER be searched by a cop, because u have no reason to be.

xs2k
12-15-2008, 10:35 PM
What if your life is in imminent danger and you carry illegally because you're a diamond broker. Some robbers approach you, and you're in the street. Does that give you the right to use it? Lets say you used it for whatever reason, what charges can they bring upon you besides carrying without a license?

Ricky B
12-15-2008, 10:35 PM
besides, if your a law abiding citizen, then you will NEVER be searched by a cop, because u have no reason to be.

Not necessarily true.

For example, if you are in an accident and need medical care, an illegally carried gun might come to light without a LEO search.

Or if a store wrongfully detains you for shoplifting, you can bet that they will use the gun charge to deflect a civil suit.

I once was called for jury duty where it appeared that the defendant, who was being prosecuted for illegal carry (and not shoplifting), had been arrested by store detectives at Sears, who found an illegally carried handgun.

gravedigger
12-15-2008, 10:52 PM
This is why I am moving out of this God-forsaken state.

Doheny
12-15-2008, 11:04 PM
Not worth it.

Luckily, I have a CCW, but if I didn't and felt I was going to be somewhere dangerous enough that I would need a gun, I wouldn't go there in the first place.

Fate
12-16-2008, 10:42 AM
Luckily, I have a CCW, but if I didn't and felt I was going to be somewhere dangerous enough that I would need a gun, I wouldn't go there in the first place.:confused: Then why do you need a CCW at all?????

DDT
12-16-2008, 11:38 AM
So that he can go places where he wouldn't feel safe if he didn't have the CCW. I'm not sure what was confusing about his post.

Fate
12-16-2008, 12:05 PM
So that he can go places where he wouldn't feel safe if he didn't have the CCW. That's not tactically smart. A CCW doesn't make you invincible. Some places are better off avoided altogether, armed or not. (And Doheny seems to have figured that last part out...mostly).

To quote Tom Givens of Rangemaster: "I carry a handgun when I absolutely, positively, am 100% sure that I am not going to get into a gun fight. Otherwise I would carry a rifle."

In other words, CCW is for when you AREN'T expecting trouble.

GuyW
12-16-2008, 12:18 PM
So that he can go places where he wouldn't feel safe if he didn't have the CCW. I'm not sure what was confusing about his post.

It undermines the entire basis for a CCW. He doesn't need one, because he can just avoid (purportedly) the situation where he'll need a gun...

...which is exactly what the Sheriffs and COPs tell all the outsiders who want a CCW...

...and its a damned lie that kills innocent people...
.

DDT
12-16-2008, 12:24 PM
Are you just picking nits or do you truly think it is foolish to want greater protection when there is greater risk?

DDT
12-16-2008, 12:30 PM
It undermines the entire basis for a CCW. He doesn't need one, because he can just avoid (purportedly) the situation where he'll need a gun...


I can "just avoid" leaving my home. Order everything online etc. Where do you draw the line?

Perhaps not being able to go to these places prevents him from the profession he wants to have, or perhaps these places are the only place with a church of his denomination and he is no longer able to exercise his right to pursue happiness or his 1st amendment rights for want of a gun.

Fate
12-16-2008, 12:40 PM
It undermines the entire basis for a CCW. He doesn't need one, because he can just avoid (purportedly) the situation where he'll need a gun...

...which is exactly what the Sheriffs and COPs tell all the outsiders who want a CCW...

...and its a damned lie that kills innocent people...
.
GuyW got my point.

My original :confused: was somewhat tongue in cheek. I suppose I could have done a better job tying my comment more clearly to the LEO/Politician mindset GuyW describes.

Keeping and bearing arms for the purpose of self defense is a natural right of all men. That my local Sheriff (Lee Baca) views the issuance of CCW licenses as "Blagovitch Bucks" spits in the face of the 2nd Amendment. Something I hope to see fixed one day.

Are you just picking nits or do you truly think it is foolish to want greater protection when there is greater risk?

No, it's not foolish to want protection at anytime. The foolish thing is to believe there is no risk.

DDT
12-16-2008, 12:47 PM
My original :confused: was somewhat tongue in cheek.

Gotcha, didn't realize you were just playing CLEO's advocate. I'm still new here and don't know everyone's sense of humor, I'll learn.

Glock22Fan
12-16-2008, 1:24 PM
The brown smelly stuff can happen anywhere at any time. I don't cancel my fire insurance when we are in a low-risk season. I might leave my Glock at home for other reasons, but not usually because I think that where I'm going is relatively safe.

DDT
12-16-2008, 1:35 PM
yeah, but when the Santa Anas are kicking up and the moron firebugs are out you do make sure all of your water hoses are connected and handy.

Glock22Fan
12-16-2008, 2:08 PM
yeah, but when the Santa Anas are kicking up and the moron firebugs are out you do make sure all of your water hoses are connected and handy.

Not just then, all the time. And I spend several thousand a year on brush clearance.

Meplat
12-16-2008, 6:27 PM
One of my "frisks" resulted from the officer misinterpreting a (perfectly legal) traffic move I made as trying to avoid him. That on top of the really ratty work in progress Jeep I was driving set off his "gut instincts". He actually admitted that after the whole thing was done. He felt he needed to frisk me for his safety. When he asked if I had anything he should be concerned about in my pockets, I said: "I don't know, are you concerned about the North American Arms Mini-revolver in my watch pocket?" He actually let me take it out and give it to him. He wanted to unload it but couldn't figure out how, I told him I'd show him and he almost handed it back to me before he caught himself.:eek: By this time he was obviously not really worried about me being a danger to him. He put the 22 in his car loaded and patted me down. Asked a bunch of questions that I KNOW I shouldn’t have answered but did. Asked if he could look in my range bag. I figured what the hell, he already has me for the NAA. So I said yes. Of course he found my .357, but I told him it was there before he looked. I don't think cops like surprises of the kind that can go bang! However he found another (inoperable) pistol that I was working on for a buddy, that I had forgot was in there. I told him who it belonged to and that I was working on it for him. He ran all the guns and they all would have come back to who they were supposed to. He also ran some information that proved the traffic move was for reasons other than avoiding him. In the end it was quite a hoot, though I thought for a while I might have to burn me freebee. He actually gave me the NAA back loaded, that’s never happened to me before.


Not necessarily true.

For example, if you are in an accident and need medical care, an illegally carried gun might come to light without a LEO search.

Or if a store wrongfully detains you for shoplifting, you can bet that they will use the gun charge to deflect a civil suit.

I once was called for jury duty where it appeared that the defendant, who was being prosecuted for illegal carry (and not shoplifting), had been arrested by store detectives at Sears, who found an illegally carried handgun.

N6ATF
12-16-2008, 10:21 PM
Since the actual cost of a CCW would probably mean a bribe coughmaximumallowablecampaigncontributioncough, I will only CCW when legally justified.