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Bug Splat
12-15-2008, 11:09 AM
A buddy of mine has a beautiful ACOG with red chev. The glass is brighter then just about anything I have ever seen. I have only one problem, you have to damn near put your eye on the lens to get the best picture. Its just way to close for comfort. Are all the ACOG sights like this? Are there any other 3-4X sights with good eye relief out there that have just as nice glass?

Hunter158
12-15-2008, 11:24 AM
you have to damn near put your eye on the lens to get the best picture. Its just way to close for comfort. Are all the ACOG sights like this?

Go look up the Trijicon web site. They list eye relief for all of their products.

www.trijicon.com

badicedog
12-15-2008, 11:28 AM
A buddy of mine has a beautiful ACOG with red chev. The glass is brighter then just about anything I have ever seen. I have only one problem, you have to damn near put your eye on the lens to get the best picture. Its just way to close for comfort. Are all the ACOG sights like this? Are there any other 3-4X sights with good eye relief out there that have just as nice glass?

Get the TA-11 you can thank me later...

dchang0
12-15-2008, 11:35 AM
Are you a both-eyes-open shooter? The Trijicon scopes with their Bindon Aiming Concept all act funny if you don't keep both eyes open, often requiring that you get right up on the scope. Try shooting your buddy's ACOG with both eyes open next time.

If that doesn't work for you, then try the Trijicon Accupoint TR21 with or without BAC--they have wonderfully-high eye relief. You can treat them like variable-power ACOGs.

Jicko
12-15-2008, 11:36 AM
A buddy of mine has a beautiful ACOG with red chev. The glass is brighter then just about anything I have ever seen. I have only one problem, you have to damn near put your eye on the lens to get the best picture. Its just way to close for comfort. Are all the ACOG sights like this? Are there any other 3-4X sights with good eye relief out there that have just as nice glass?

If eye-relief is your concern, what you want is the 3.5x version of the ACOG. Same glass, same clarity.

ACOG 4x eye-relief is 1.5" (TA31 series, you would wnat the TA3_ since those are the ones with dual-illumination)

ACOG 3.5x eye-relief is 2.39" (TA11 series), much nicer eye-relief

The benefit of the 4x32 is that it is only 5.8" long (as compare to 8" for the 3.5x35), and weight only 10oz (as compare to 14oz for the 3.5x35).

The 4x32s also have larger FOV 7deg (37ft @ 100yds), vs the 3.5x35s have only 5deg (29ft @ 100yds)

IceMan711
12-15-2008, 11:43 AM
Get the TA-11 you can thank me later...

+1, much more pleasurable to shoot with.

Jeffy
12-15-2008, 11:48 AM
The TA11 is huge (14oz. & 8") compared to even the 4x bodies, which might be a consideration when putting it on a carbine.

I think the TA33 (3x) would be a better choice. They are smaller then the 4x and have more eye-relief. Although it's only 1.9" but to some that makes all the difference.

I wouldn't overlook the Accupoint TA21's either.

BTW: the red chevron is the TA31F.

mark2203
12-15-2008, 12:02 PM
This link is a great reference

Trijicon ACOG Comparisons, Reticle Pictures, and FAQ

http://www.militarywarfighter.com/trijiconfaq.html

Pryde
12-15-2008, 12:13 PM
Are you a both-eyes-open shooter? The Trijicon scopes with their Bindon Aiming Concept all act funny if you don't keep both eyes open, often requiring that you get right up on the scope. Try shooting your buddy's ACOG with both eyes open next time.

If that doesn't work for you, then try the Trijicon Accupoint TR21 with or without BAC--they have wonderfully-high eye relief. You can treat them like variable-power ACOGs.

I think you are confused as to how to use the ACOG.
The bindon aiming concept is supposed to be use close-range only like an OEG sight. If you are aiming at something that is 100+ yards away you should absolutely not be using both eyes open.

As to the OP's question, all 4x ACOGs have very short eye relief.
As previously stated the TA11 3.5x models are much more forgiving.

TonyM
12-15-2008, 1:25 PM
As to the OP's question, all 4x ACOGs have very short eye relief.
As previously stated the TA11 3.5x models are much more forgiving.

+1

I also like the 3x models and have a couple of them. The TA-33R8 is the model I have on one of my ARs and on my Sig 556. It's very compact and the eye relief is much longer than my TA31DOC.

3x vs 4x isn't that much of a deal to me for the ranges I shoot at, so the compact model with the longer eye relief is nice.

Mississippi
12-15-2008, 2:34 PM
I have the TA31 ECOS. I like getting in close to it. Best optic I have ever owned hands down...

Bug Splat
12-15-2008, 2:57 PM
wow thanks guys. That VS chart was just what I needed. I'm going to see if I can peek through a couple Accupoint before I decide on anything. If they look just as clear I might just get one of them. Any Con's to accupoint's I should know about?

dchang0
12-15-2008, 3:39 PM
I think you are confused as to how to use the ACOG.
The bindon aiming concept is supposed to be use close-range only like an OEG sight. If you are aiming at something that is 100+ yards away you should absolutely not be using both eyes open.

Um, according to the Trijicon website, BAC utilizes both-eyes-open and the brain's automatic switch to the aiming eye precisely so that you do not have to close your other eye. It's not about "close range" versus "long range,"--it's about "moving quickly to acquire/pursue target" versus "holding steady on moving target."

See the video:

http://trijicon-inc.com/pdfs/bac.wmv

Better yet, this article says:


Monnig noticed that I was squinting my left eye, which, of course, is counterproductive to the BAC, so he put a lens cover over the front lens of my ACOG.

Looking through the scope with my right eye only, I could still see the aiming point glowing brilliantly though the rest of the scope was completely black. Now he had me perform the same presentation-and-shoot exercise, and this forced me to keep my left eye wide open. What I saw was the aiming point superimposed on my target. This dramatically reinforced the importance of two-eye shooting and the BAC.


http://www.policemag.com/Articles/2007/01/Police-Product-Test.aspx

So, BAC actually requires both-eyes-open to work properly.

dchang0
12-15-2008, 3:52 PM
If they look just as clear I might just get one of them. Any Con's to accupoint's I should know about?

They are definitely as clear--I own one of each and have held them side by side on the same target.

Accupoint cons:

1) size--they're a lot longer and somewhat taller and heavier than most ACOG models
2) the triangle reticle design (with BAC) isn't as good as the ACOG's chevron with BDC reticle, and reticle choices are somewhat limited compared to the ACOG line
3) longer eye relief usually requires a special mount such as the Larue Tactical SPR-E for AR-types (if you have monobloc rail or aren't using an AR, this is not a problem--regular rings will work). Some people have reported that even the SPR-E is not enough on an AR, though it works fine for me.

Try before you buy!

SuperSet
12-15-2008, 3:59 PM
The only issue with BAC is that your POA and POI is different. Please see Bartholomew Roberts excellent and detailed post on this subject on thehighroad.org. You can find it if you google 'ACOG phoria'.

To your question about the AccuPoint, these points encompass my experience only:

1. At the low end, 1.25x magnification looks strange. It's a definite shift if you're accustomed to red dot sights. I'm still faster and more accurate with an EOTech.

2. The solid triangle and double post lines make it difficult to shoot long range targets.

3. Trijicon is releasing a new AccuPoint soon that's supposed to be true 1x. So, you may want to wait and see what's up.

Bug Splat
12-15-2008, 4:08 PM
hmmm not sure if I like that post down the middle of the accupoint, at least from what I can tell from web pics. i'll just keep my eye out for an acog on the equipment exchange.

BTW that 3.5 acog looks HUGE! At first I though someone photoshopped an acog to look larger.

odysseus
12-15-2008, 4:09 PM
I have both ACOGs and Accupoint.

I prefer still having a red dot for BAC-type targeting. I did get a TA31DOC recently and I like it, the Dr. Optic top dot is great and I can use the illuminated 5.56 reticle and great acog system as a great solid as hell 4x scope. 2 "scopes" in one.

The Accupoint glass is good. I have one of the new mil dot 3x9 scopes for an m14 build since it fit the requirements for me for long eye relief, illumination and fast target acquiring. I didn't need a serious precision 1000 yd scope, but I can hold over and do what I need within this rifles capabilities. It is a good option scope to look into, and looks durably built solid.

.

ghideon
12-16-2008, 4:00 AM
Go TA11F, I did and I'm very happy. I've only had it on the range once, and was super impressed with it. It was super easy to use from Chabot's 50yd line, and eye relief is a non-issue on my U15 equipped Bravo Company upper.

UPS just delivered my TA21 today, and I have installed it on my M1A, but have not been to the range yet. Eye relief is shorter on the TA21 than on the TA11F, so beware. However, I could easily see myself using the TA21 on my AR and not my M1A if I didn't have the TA11F.

Teletiger7
12-16-2008, 1:28 PM
The TA11 is huge (14oz. & 8") compared to even the 4x bodies, which might be a consideration when putting it on a carbine.

I think the TA33 (3x) would be a better choice. They are smaller then the 4x and have more eye-relief. Although it's only 1.9" but to some that makes all the difference.

I wouldn't overlook the Accupoint TA21's either.

BTW: the red chevron is the TA31F.

I've looked through a TA33 and the eyerelief seemed much longer than the advertised 1.9" seemed more like 2.5 to me. My eye was well away of the lens. If you want variable another thing to coonsider is early next year the new accupoint that is supposed to be true 1-4X and has a 30mm tube and suppossed to have various reticles offered.

Bug Splat
12-16-2008, 1:43 PM
Just got done reading a boat load about the DMS and I think it might be a better fit for me. 1x with the option up to 4x, and the eye relief is like 3.5" which is more what I need because NTCH just about breaks my neck.

If it doesn't work out I'll go right for the Acog but at $199 for the DMS its hard to pass up with all the great reviews it has gotten.