PDA

View Full Version : ATTN FFLs: Rostering doesn't apply to intrafamily xfers from outside CA


bwiese
12-11-2008, 3:13 PM
It seems quite a few FFLs are confused about handgun Rostering matters w/regards to certain interstate/ intrastate transfers.

Yes, you can't buy a non-Rostered nonexempt handgun from Joe Blow in Nebraska via Gunbroker and have it shipped to your CA FFL and DROSed to you. [We will avoid discussion of NRF frames here, as that's a separate matter.]

However, Rostering is not applicable for lineal intrafamily transfers (or inheritances) of non-Rostered nonexempt handguns.

Normally, lineal intrafamily transfers within CA do NOT need to use FFLs. Ensure your kid has a HSC card, hand the pistol to him, and tell him to fill out the DOJ form and pay $19 within 30 days (or whatever the fee is).




It gets more complex when the supplying family member is outside CA:

use of a CA FFL is only required to keep the *BATF* happy:
guns can't move across state lines without an FFL (except
for probate/inheritance)



despite above, there's still no *California* requirement to use
an FFL for this matter: the intrafamily exemption says no
licensed party required. (By that they mean FFL + DOJ CA license
dealer)

[Formally inherited/bequested guns can cross state lines without usage of FFLs - and there's exemption in CA law for this too. Rostering not required.]

Thus, your dad/grandad/kid (lineal only) in Nebraska can ship the non-Rostered nonexempt handgun to your local CA FFL. The gun is DROSed+4473'd like a normal purchase - but on the DROS screen an exempt notation should be added: "12078PC intrafamily transfer".

It is helpful to the gun dealer if a (copy of a) letter can be added to his files for your transaction, specifying the exact gun, the lineal family relationship, and the names of the two parties:
"Gentlemen,

I want my grandson, Maximus Gunnie Jr., to
have my nice Colt 45 pistol, serial #12345.

Yours truly,
Grandma Biggie Gunnie
<date>"
That helps the FFL during any prospective DOJ audit.

This transaction is *not* a PPT: FFL fees are not restricted to $35, unlike PPTs, and the FFL can charge whatever he wants for the transfer.

The above information is not 'aggressive' and has even been told repeatedly to FFLs in the past by DOJ Firearms staffers. [Some DOJ Firearms phone clerk types do not understand this, however, and just may give a blanket answer, however.]

Here's the relevant law:12132. This chapter ("Unsafe handgun" Rostering stuff) shall not apply
to any of the following:

(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Sec 12082
in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

Just says that private party transfers must go thru a licensed dealer
(meaning a CA FFL w/CA + local permits etc) and that Rostering is
not required for such PPTs.

(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from the
provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 pursuant to any applicable
exemption contained in Sec 12078, if the sale, loan, or transfer complies
with the requirements of that applicable exemption to subdivision (d) of
Sec 12072.

Here it is... Rostering isn't required for guns exempt from PPT provision (12072(d))
due to a 12078 exemption. [The latter phrase "...if the sale, loan, or transfer ..."
just means that all the rules of the particular exemption from PPTing must be followed,
it's a bit of near-throwaway legalese.]

12078 is the section including a variety of exemptions from FFL use: intrafamily
transfer, inheritance, infrequent loan provisions, etc.


(c) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm as described in paragraph (3)
of subdivision (b) of Section 12125.

12125(b) just lists Roster exemptions for prototypes to be manufactured, imported,
submitted or analyzed for approval, exemptions for the anaylzing party, exemptions
for C&R handguns,exemption for LE agencies.


(d) The delivery of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed
upon the person to a person licensed pursuant to Sec 12071 for the purposes of
the service or repair of that firearm.

Doesn't need to be Rostered for in-CA repair/gunsmithing.


(e) The return of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed
upon the person by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 to its owner
where that firearm was initially delivered in the circumstances set forth in
subdivisions (a), (d), (f), or (j).

Doesn't need to be Rostered for return from in-CA repair/gunsmithing.

(f) <<<consignment/pawning exemptions from Rostering>>>

(g) <<<C&R exemption from Rostering, kinda duplicated>>>

(h) <<<Olympic pistol exemptions>>>



useful 12078PC exemptions include:

12078(c)(1) <covers intrafamily exemption to PPT procedures for firearms>
12078(c)(2) <covers intrafamily exemption to PPT procedures for *handguns*>
12078(c)(3) <define 'intrafamily': btwn grandparent/parent/child/grandchild>
12078(d) <covers 'infrequent loan' provisions>
12078(e) <yet another to/from gunsmithing exemption>
12078(f) <yes, you can send a gun to out of state FFL>
12078(i) <operation of law exemptions including inheritance/bequest>

CCWFacts
12-11-2008, 3:33 PM
Wow. The roster is rapidly evaporating into a puff of oily smoke.

bwiese
12-11-2008, 3:34 PM
Wow. The roster is rapidly evaporating into a puff of oily smoke.

The above has been known for a long time, unfortunately many FFLs are not aware of it.

Even the DOJ BoF will admit to the above when you get a more knowledgeable individual on the phone.

10001110101
12-11-2008, 3:37 PM
Perhaps it's time to ask Grandma for a REALLY nice christmas present. :D

halifax
12-11-2008, 4:15 PM
Yep. Done it a few times and this, Bwiese, is very good advice:

It is helpful to the gun dealer if a copy of a letter can be added to his files for your transaction:
"Gentlemen,

I want my grandson, Maximus Gunnie Jr., to
have my nice Colt 45 pistol, serial #12345.

Yours truly,
Grandma Gunnie
<date>"

That helps the FFL during any prospective DOJ audit.

AlohaRover
12-11-2008, 4:45 PM
So my wife can give her dad all of her SIG P250s?

glockman19
12-11-2008, 4:59 PM
Bwiese,

Thanks for the clarification.

Fastnuf
12-11-2008, 6:51 PM
bwiese, I appreciate you taking the time to clarify this for all of us. Thank you!

Librarian
12-11-2008, 10:31 PM
So my wife can give her dad all of her SIG P250s?
Yes - but he better find 10-round mags for them, which, AFAIK, are only available for the .45 model.

And I said all of this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=124237) in October.

Lead a horse to water....

bwiese
12-11-2008, 10:57 PM
Thanks, Librarian.

I'd forgotten so soon - your post was excellent.

The issue/queries had just come up again, and I figured getting some directed FFL attention here might help.

Rumpled
12-11-2008, 11:59 PM
Maximus!!

AlohaRover
12-12-2008, 4:54 AM
Yes - but he better find 10-round mags for them, which, AFAIK, are only available for the .45 model.

Lead a horse to water....

Turning the 9mm sub compacts into perm 10rds wont be an issue

But the receiving FFL can still refuse to receive it I guess.

DDT
12-12-2008, 6:47 AM
Would you have to send the magazines through an FFL? Is there any reason you can't direct ship magazines? I thought they were like barrels and scopes and lower parts kits.

40caldeserteagle
12-12-2008, 8:18 AM
Would you have to send the magazines through an FFL? Is there any reason you can't direct ship magazines? I thought they were like barrels and scopes and lower parts kits.

Wouldn't they need at least one mag for the safety demonstration ?

David F.

bwiese
12-12-2008, 8:44 AM
Wouldn't they need at least one mag for the safety demonstration ?

David F.

Yup. A complete pistol needs to be equipped with a magazine.

It also needs to be sold with the magazine it's been tested with when Rostered (i.e, can't use an aftermarket replacement).

DDT
12-12-2008, 9:05 AM
Thanks for the education. I guess that being a newbie I really don't have adequate understanding of just how screwed up our gun laws are. The only handgun I own was purchased from a retail shop in CA. If I ever inherit my dad's back-up service weapon I hope I can bring it in. What about bringing it in as frame-only and then re-building the gun at home? Do I still need an OEM magazine for safety demonstration?

bwiese
12-12-2008, 10:45 AM
If I ever inherit my dad's back-up service weapon I hope I can bring it in. What about bringing it in as frame-only and then re-building the gun at home? Do I still need an OEM magazine for safety demonstration?

You are able to be given or willed your dad's backup handgun without dealing with it as a NRF (non-Rosterable frame).

As I pointed out, intrafamily xfers are exempt from Rostering.

The safety demo for a non-Rostered pistol transferred to you thru PPT or exempt intrafamily transfer or inheritance would not have to have an OEM magazine.

It's unclear to me if the safety demo of a *Rostered* handgun needs a factory OEM mag, perhaps not - but not that relevant, since actual DROSing & pickup appear to likely require it.

PIRATE14
12-12-2008, 12:08 PM
We've done several HGs through out of state intraF xfers.....which, correctly stated they are exempt from the roster....

Just make sure it's the right family member....

Pretty sure the 1 per 30 days doesn't apply either.....

shirow
12-12-2008, 12:36 PM
My Mommy and Daddy live in Arizona. :D

DDT
12-12-2008, 12:38 PM
Yup. A complete pistol needs to be equipped with a magazine.

It also needs to be sold with the magazine it's been tested with when Rostered (i.e, can't use an aftermarket replacement).

I guess that this had me a little confused. I see now where it says "sold" which doesn't apply to the topic of this thread. I "think" I understand now. Not that the law makes sense but I do understand it now anyway.

Fate
12-12-2008, 12:42 PM
A good friend of mine just did this within the last month. He had been moaning about the pistol his dad wanted to give him that was off the roster and then I turned him on to Librarian's thread. Now he's got it and smiling from ear to ear. :D Now I need to see what I can shake loose from my old man back in Tx.

Fastnuf
12-17-2008, 11:03 AM
Armed with all of the above information I contacted 6 FFL's (Unique, Royal, De Chiel, Gusslers, Discount and Turners who by the way doesn't do ANY out of state transfers anymore) in San Diego about doing my out-of-state intra family transfer of a non California roster hand gun, and each and everyone said it was not legal. I even quoted the info provided here but to no avail.

I had planned to wait until she came home on leave, but due to her husbands deployment schedule, we are unsure when she will be coming home.

So my question is, who here in San Diego has done an out of state intra family transfer what FFL did you use?

sfwdiy
12-17-2008, 11:58 AM
Normally, lineal intrafamily transfers within CA do NOT need to use FFLs. Ensure your kid has a HSC card, hand the pistol to him, and tell him to fill out the DOJ form and pay $19 within 30 days (or whatever the fee is).

If you have a parent that lives out of state, can they come into California with the firearm, then give it to you while they're here using the above? Or does it have to go through an FFL anyway just because it's coming from out of state?

--Ben

ke6guj
12-17-2008, 12:20 PM
Conventional wisdom says that because ATF does not allow for unlicensed individuals to transfer firearms between residents of different states. There is no federal intrafamily exemption to that. So, it is supposed to go through a CA FFL for federal reasons, not state.

Librarian
12-17-2008, 12:41 PM
A good friend of mine just did this within the last month. He had been moaning about the pistol his dad wanted to give him that was off the roster and then I turned him on to Librarian's thread. Now he's got it and smiling from ear to ear. :D Now I need to see what I can shake loose from my old man back in Tx.

I hadn't seen that until today -- I'll take that as my Christmas present!

artherd
12-17-2008, 12:47 PM
Conventional wisdom says that it must go through an FFL no matter what. There are a couple of people who will claim that once it's given to them, it becomes theirs, and all that is required is the $19 DOJ fee. I don't know the law well enough to point out if/why this is incorrect, but I'd play it safe and do the FFL thing.

Parent would have to MOVE TO and not merely VISIT CA.

Turbinator
12-17-2008, 3:00 PM
IMHO, this information is worth a sticky.

Turby

grammaton76
12-17-2008, 4:15 PM
Parent would have to MOVE TO and not merely VISIT CA.

Or of course if your parent's in the military and has maintained CA as his/her home of record, I believe this would be a more or less perma "give it to him" situation provided they've sent the DOJ their $19.

My dad filled out the handgun reg form for a CZ-40P and waited for registration to come in, then handed it to me and I sent in a notice of intrafamiliar transfer.

Of course, even if the home of record thing didn't fly, he happened to have been re-stationed at Ft. Irwin immediately prior to the reg and subsequent transfer, so no big deal anyway.

Pont
12-20-2008, 7:29 PM
I'm sure this is in a FAQ somewhere, but...

My grandfather and grandmother divorced. My grandfather remarried. He has passed away, as has my biological grandmother.

Does my step-grandmother count as a linear intrafamily transfer?

ZirconJohn
12-24-2008, 11:04 AM
So my wife can give her dad all of her SIG P250s?

Nope! - Gonna ahave to ship all them Sig P250's to ME!

Ha! Just kidding... yes.

In a nutshell... this basic info, yet also a can of worms for obvious reasons;

Intrafamilial, heirloom transfers "up the ladder, or down the ladder, not across" as in sibling to sibling etc. are exempt from the CA DOJ Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale. Additionally, you may want to have your Dealer contact DOJ on specific items etc... it's common practice at my shop. I never take State or Federal Law for granted. We git-er done the right way.

65cobra
01-05-2009, 1:22 PM
sorry if I just missed it in my reading. I live in Ca and my Dad lives in Idaho. What if he gives it to me while I am visiting in Idaho. So I am the owner and I travel accross the state line to get home. Then do I just send in the form?

ke6guj
01-05-2009, 1:29 PM
He can't give it to you physically while you are in Idaho. That would be transfer between two unlicensed individuals of different states and would violate federal law.

In order to comply with federal law, he would need to deliver it (in person or shipped) to a CA FFL for you to DROS it from.

Wizard99
01-08-2009, 3:39 PM
I would be willing to bet that most people in this country assume that their is a Federal family transfer. Since most states either have a familial transfer exemption or any person to person transfer doesn't have to go through a dealer people just assume that the same applies across state lines.

I think a lot of people all over the US are unknowningly comitting federal felonies.

Its to bad we can't push for a Federal familial transfer exemption on the basis that families in this day and age are spread out all over the country and most people assume that its leagal for their dad to give them grandpas old dear rifle even though they live in differant states.

thatrogue
01-12-2009, 10:31 PM
My dad in texas needs to cap his xdm mags at 10 and gift it to me.

thatrogue
01-22-2009, 9:37 PM
I have called a few houston area dealers and cant find one that will ship to my FFL here in Sacramento... Anybody know whom my dad can go to

ke6guj
01-22-2009, 9:40 PM
Your father does not need to use a TX FFL to ship it to your FFL. It is legal for him to ship it directly to the CA FFL. Just confirm that your FFL will accept a shipment from a non-licensee.

thatrogue
01-22-2009, 10:28 PM
Isn't it a federal requirement to ship thru a FFL... By the way my FFL Sonoma Firearms said that it needs to be a FFL to FFL.

ke6guj
01-22-2009, 10:41 PM
Isn't it a federal requirement to ship thru a FFL...nope, just that it be shipped to an FFL By the way my FFL Sonoma Firearms said that it needs to be a FFL to FFL.that would not be correct per federal or state law. However, if he personally wants to only accept shipments from another FFL, that is he perogative.

ke6guj
01-22-2009, 10:45 PM
Here is the info.(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? [Back]


A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

tba02
10-14-2009, 3:30 PM
[Formally inherited/bequested guns can cross state lines without usage of FFLs - and there's exemption in CA law for this too. Rostering not required.]

I've read this thread more than once, but didn't catch the above until yesterday.

Hypothetically ...

1) I moved to CA in 2004

2) I have a gun that is in another state that I have stored, of which I am the owner.
2a) *if this even matters* This was an inherited item.

3) The roster, due to 2 or 2a does not apply.

Assumed to be true -
A) I can go to said location and, following applicable TSA laws, fly home with said item (assumption is yes, please correct me if I am wrong)
B) I can ship the item via common carrier to myself (why would I if A applies, however)

Question -
Can a non-owner/non-prohibited person ship this via common carrier, from the common carrier directly to myself w/o the need to ship to a CA FFL?

I would then have to adhere to CA laws and spend $19.00, of course.

Am I missing something by believing the above to be possible?

The point is that if one doesn't have to fly to the alternate location to retrieve the item, it could be shipped direct.
Having to go through an FFL makes the plane ticket a more economical choice.

davew
10-18-2009, 5:57 PM
Depends on how you read the following:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/

B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity? [Back]

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.



(B10) May a person who is relocating out of State move firearms with other household goods? [Back]


Yes. A person who lawfully possesses a firearm may transport or ship the firearm interstate when changing his or her State of residence.

Certain NFA firearms must have prior approval from the Bureau of ATF before they may be moved interstate. The person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported. He or she should also check State and local laws where relocating to ensure that movement of firearms into the new State does not violate any State law or local ordinance.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(4) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.28 and 478.31]

compulsivegunbuyer
10-21-2009, 5:14 PM
I'll bet $100 that no one can find a FFL in California and another state to do this.

ke6guj
10-21-2009, 7:06 PM
I'll bet $100 that no one can find a FFL in California and another state to do this.

I've found two in this thread.

Yep. Done it a few times and this, Bwiese, is very good advice:

We've done several HGs through out of state intraF xfers.....which, correctly stated they are exempt from the roster....

Just make sure it's the right family member....

Pretty sure the 1 per 30 days doesn't apply either.....

And there is no need to involve a out-of-state FFL in the deal, so why would we need to find one?

So, where's my $100:D

artherd
10-22-2009, 3:00 AM
I'll bet $100 that no one can find a FFL in California and another state to do this.

We have a number of FFLs that are cooperative, well defended, and don't take any guff from Cal DOJ.

barrykay
10-24-2009, 8:05 PM
We have a number of FFLs that are cooperative, well defended, and don't take any guff from Cal DOJ.

Why not name them???:43::drool5:

halifax
10-25-2009, 9:10 AM
We have a number of FFLs that are cooperative, well defended, and don't take any guff from Cal DOJ.

I really didn't have to take any guff (or FUD) from the DOJ specialist I talked to when I did this the first time. He was very helpful. But I do like the "well defended" part of your post. :)

LexLuther
01-24-2010, 8:15 AM
Please correct / advise me on this idea.

Colorado sister could gift a new non-list handgun to California Father. Once it is here, California father could gift the item to California son?

Should there be a period of time between each transfer, or could it just be as simple as Dad gets the gun in Cali, decides he doesnt like / want it and gifts it to son?

Thanks in advance for the comments, I really appreciate the contributions from the CG members / founders who have posted to this thread. Artherd, Librarian, or any other CG board member...If you are ever up in the Redding area, the drinks are on me.

Thanks Lex

luckystrike
01-26-2010, 3:54 PM
Normally, lineal intrafamily transfers within CA do NOT need to use FFLs. Ensure your kid has a HSC card, hand the pistol to him, and tell him to fill out the DOJ form and pay $19 within 30 days (or whatever the fee is).




]

is this for those 21 and up?

when I called DOJ , well one of the times, I was told when I was 19 that I need a note in addition to an HSC and DOJ form from a parent to transport it anywhere......

but then again I called DOJ 4 times on that same matter and you guessed it, I got 4 different answers.

luckystrike
03-06-2010, 3:38 PM
might have to dumb it down for me....so can my dad transfer a pistol to me from out of state? are there specific DOJ forms for that??

ke6guj
03-06-2010, 4:18 PM
might have to dumb it down for me....so can my dad transfer a pistol to me from out of state?yes he can, through a CA FFL.

are there specific DOJ forms for that??no there isn't. It just needs to be transfered through a CA FFL as a roster-exempt transfer.

There is a CADOJ intrafamily form but it is for intrastate transfers, and won't work in this situation since the transferor is a resident of a different state.

CBO
03-25-2010, 12:14 AM
So, if im understanding this correctly, the imformation I recieved from a local ffl is false. My mother has gifted me a rifle in GA. I went to find out how to get it here. They told me if I was going out there to visit soon (which I am) that I should simply flly back with it (checked, with airline notification of course) and then fill out the DOJ registration and pay my $19. Is this false??

shark92651
03-26-2010, 10:18 AM
So, if im understanding this correctly, the imformation I recieved from a local ffl is false. My mother has gifted me a rifle in GA. I went to find out how to get it here. They told me if I was going out there to visit soon (which I am) that I should simply flly back with it (checked, with airline notification of course) and then fill out the DOJ registration and pay my $19. Is this false??

Long guns are not registered in California - just make sure it is not considered an AW in California and spend that $19 on ammo instead.

ke6guj
03-26-2010, 10:25 AM
So, if im understanding this correctly, the imformation I recieved from a local ffl is false. My mother has gifted me a rifle in GA. I went to find out how to get it here. They told me if I was going out there to visit soon (which I am) that I should simply flly back with it (checked, with airline notification of course) and then fill out the DOJ registration and pay my $19. Is this false??

OK, it sounds like mom is still alive. In that case, with her being a non-licensed (doesn't have an FFL) resident of GA, and you being a non-licensed resident of CA, it is a violation of Federal law for her to give you the rifle and for you to import it back to CA. You must use a CA FFL to facilitate the transfer from her to you. You can't just bring it back with your and fill out a CADOJ form. A CADOJ form does not exempt you from federal law, and there is no federal intrafamily exemption.

swhatb
03-27-2010, 3:15 PM
VERY GOOD INFORMATION!!! Thanks.

It seems quite a few FFLs are confused about handgun Rostering matters w/regards to certain interstate/ intrastate transfers.

Yes, you can't buy a non-Rostered nonexempt handgun from Joe Blow in Nebraska via Gunbroker and have it shipped to your CA FFL and DROSed to you. [We will avoid discussion of NRF frames here, as that's a separate matter.]

However, Rostering is not applicable for lineal intrafamily transfers (or inheritances) of non-Rostered nonexempt handguns.

Normally, lineal intrafamily transfers within CA do NOT need to use FFLs. Ensure your kid has a HSC card, hand the pistol to him, and tell him to fill out the DOJ form and pay $19 within 30 days (or whatever the fee is).




It gets more complex when the supplying family member is outside CA:

use of a CA FFL is only required to keep the *BATF* happy:
guns can't move across state lines without an FFL (except
for probate/inheritance)



despite above, there's still no *California* requirement to use
an FFL for this matter: the intrafamily exemption says no
licensed party required. (By that they mean FFL + DOJ CA license
dealer)

[Formally inherited/bequested guns can cross state lines without usage of FFLs - and there's exemption in CA law for this too. Rostering not required.]

Thus, your dad/grandad/kid (lineal only) in Nebraska can ship the non-Rostered nonexempt handgun to your local CA FFL. The gun is DROSed+4473'd like a normal purchase - but on the DROS screen an exempt notation should be added: "12078PC intrafamily transfer".

It is helpful to the gun dealer if a (copy of a) letter can be added to his files for your transaction, specifying the exact gun, the lineal family relationship, and the names of the two parties:
"Gentlemen,

I want my grandson, Maximus Gunnie Jr., to
have my nice Colt 45 pistol, serial #12345.

Yours truly,
Grandma Biggie Gunnie
<date>"
That helps the FFL during any prospective DOJ audit.

This transaction is *not* a PPT: FFL fees are not restricted to $35, unlike PPTs, and the FFL can charge whatever he wants for the transfer.

The above information is not 'aggressive' and has even been told repeatedly to FFLs in the past by DOJ Firearms staffers. [Some DOJ Firearms phone clerk types do not understand this, however, and just may give a blanket answer, however.]

Here's the relevant law:12132. This chapter ("Unsafe handgun" Rostering stuff) shall not apply
to any of the following:

(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Sec 12082
in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

Just says that private party transfers must go thru a licensed dealer
(meaning a CA FFL w/CA + local permits etc) and that Rostering is
not required for such PPTs.

(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from the
provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 pursuant to any applicable
exemption contained in Sec 12078, if the sale, loan, or transfer complies
with the requirements of that applicable exemption to subdivision (d) of
Sec 12072.

Here it is... Rostering isn't required for guns exempt from PPT provision (12072(d))
due to a 12078 exemption. [The latter phrase "...if the sale, loan, or transfer ..."
just means that all the rules of the particular exemption from PPTing must be followed,
it's a bit of near-throwaway legalese.]

12078 is the section including a variety of exemptions from FFL use: intrafamily
transfer, inheritance, infrequent loan provisions, etc.


(c) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm as described in paragraph (3)
of subdivision (b) of Section 12125.

12125(b) just lists Roster exemptions for prototypes to be manufactured, imported,
submitted or analyzed for approval, exemptions for the anaylzing party, exemptions
for C&R handguns,exemption for LE agencies.


(d) The delivery of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed
upon the person to a person licensed pursuant to Sec 12071 for the purposes of
the service or repair of that firearm.

Doesn't need to be Rostered for in-CA repair/gunsmithing.


(e) The return of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed
upon the person by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 to its owner
where that firearm was initially delivered in the circumstances set forth in
subdivisions (a), (d), (f), or (j).

Doesn't need to be Rostered for return from in-CA repair/gunsmithing.

(f) <<<consignment/pawning exemptions from Rostering>>>

(g) <<<C&R exemption from Rostering, kinda duplicated>>>

(h) <<<Olympic pistol exemptions>>>



useful 12078PC exemptions include:

12078(c)(1) <covers intrafamily exemption to PPT procedures for firearms>
12078(c)(2) <covers intrafamily exemption to PPT procedures for *handguns*>
12078(c)(3) <define 'intrafamily': btwn grandparent/parent/child/grandchild>
12078(d) <covers 'infrequent loan' provisions>
12078(e) <yet another to/from gunsmithing exemption>
12078(f) <yes, you can send a gun to out of state FFL>
12078(i) <operation of law exemptions including inheritance/bequest>

CBO
03-27-2010, 6:38 PM
OK, it sounds like mom is still alive. In that case, with her being a non-licensed (doesn't have an FFL) resident of GA, and you being a non-licensed resident of CA, it is a violation of Federal law for her to give you the rifle and for you to import it back to CA. You must use a CA FFL to facilitate the transfer from her to you. You can't just bring it back with your and fill out a CADOJ form. A CADOJ form does not exempt you from federal law, and there is no federal intrafamily exemption.

How would I go about doing this legally while im in GA then? Just ffl it out there to one here? Or does she really have to travel to CA with it and do it here...she has already mentiond that doing this would make her very uncomfortable so that would be disappointing.

ke6guj
03-27-2010, 7:45 PM
How would I go about doing this legally while im in GA then? Just ffl it out there to one here? Or does she really have to travel to CA with it and do it here...she has already mentiond that doing this would make her very uncomfortable so that would be disappointing.your mother can either ship it to a CA FFL (dealing with a CA FFL that understands the intrafamily exemption and is willing to accept a shipment from a non-licensee) and when you get back to CA, you deal with the DROS to get it transferd to you. OR, your mother brings it with her the next time she visits you in CA and hand-delivers it to your local FFL, who will then DROS it to you.

kekoa1969
04-10-2010, 1:26 AM
So, is there an FFL in the O.C. that understands this & would do it? Could my brother in UT gift a P250 & an LCP to our dad here, then dad turn around & gift them to me?

cyberhh
04-14-2010, 8:20 AM
If anyone knows of an OC FFL that will do this FTF my mom is coming out and has some stuff for me...

thanks

DaveFJ80
04-21-2010, 3:25 PM
Just so that I'm clear on this, from reading this thread and the Calguns Wiki FAQ about Intrafamily transfers.....


My dad is now a resident of South Dakota (and is ex-LEO of CA, but I know that doesn't matter). He is physically bringing a non-rostered handgun (SA XDm) with him to CA to do the Intrafamily transfer.

- Will a FFL still be needed?
- Does it go by where the handgun and transfer are physically taking place?
- Or does it go by where the current registered owner resides?
- Will the DOJ transfer form (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf) need to be filled out and mailed in seperately with payment? Or can this be done at the FFL?


And a side question....

- Can the Intrafamily transfer include a gun with either no mags, or the high cap mags broken down and transferred to me in CA as rebuild kits? Specifically the SA XDM mags.

ke6guj
04-21-2010, 4:16 PM
Just so that I'm clear on this, from reading this thread and the Calguns Wiki FAQ about Intrafamily transfers.....


My dad is now a resident of South Dakota (and is ex-LEO of CA, but I know that doesn't matter). He is physically bringing a non-rostered handgun (SA XDm) with him to CA to do the Intrafamily transfer.

- Will a FFL still be needed?
- Does it go by where the handgun and transfer are physically taking place?
- Or does it go by where the current registered owner resides?yes, an FFL is still needed and federal law requires that an FFL in the recipient's state be involved in the the transfer of the handgun.


- Will the DOJ transfer form (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf) need to be filled out and mailed in seperately with payment? Or can this be done at the FFL?in this case, the oplaw form is not needed. It is used when both parties are CA-residents and the handgun was transfered without using an FFL. But since federal law requires an FFL be used, you don't need to use the oplaw form. The DROS covers the info that the form would provide to CADOJ.


And a side question....

- Can the Intrafamily transfer include a gun with either no mags, or the high cap mags broken down and transferred to me in CA as rebuild kits? Specifically the SA XDM mags.In order to comply withthe safe handling demo that the PC requires, there should operational magazine with the handgun.

spiderpigs
05-07-2010, 9:23 AM
Just so that I'm clear on this, from reading this thread and the Calguns Wiki FAQ about Intrafamily transfers.....


My dad is now a resident of South Dakota (and is ex-LEO of CA, but I know that doesn't matter). He is physically bringing a non-rostered handgun (SA XDm) with him to CA to do the Intrafamily transfer.

- Will a FFL still be needed?
- Does it go by where the handgun and transfer are physically taking place?
- Or does it go by where the current registered owner resides?
- Will the DOJ transfer form (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf) need to be filled out and mailed in seperately with payment? Or can this be done at the FFL?


And a side question....

- Can the Intrafamily transfer include a gun with either no mags, or the high cap mags broken down and transferred to me in CA as rebuild kits? Specifically the SA XDM mags.

I basically have this same issue, let me know how you handle the Magazine issue

mtsul
05-09-2010, 10:36 PM
OK, it sounds like mom is still alive. In that case, with her being a non-licensed (doesn't have an FFL) resident of GA, and you being a non-licensed resident of CA, it is a violation of Federal law for her to give you the rifle and for you to import it back to CA. You must use a CA FFL to facilitate the transfer from her to you. You can't just bring it back with your and fill out a CADOJ form. A CADOJ form does not exempt you from federal law, and there is no federal intrafamily exemption.

Just wondering but I thought intrafamily transfers of a long gun could be just "here you go son" and that was it, or is this different since its out of state?
Also if she came to CA with the gun couldent she just hand it to him and say "here you go son alls good and done"?

(I know only up or down Son to mother grandfather or vice-versa, and no side to side sister to brother)

ke6guj
05-09-2010, 10:55 PM
Just wondering but I thought intrafamily transfers of a long gun could be just "here you go son" and that was it, or is this different since its out of state?
Also if she came to CA with the gun couldent she just hand it to him and say "here you go son alls good and done"?

(I know only up or down Son to mother grandfather or vice-versa, and no side to side sister to brother)
no, federal law basically requires all transfers between residents of different state use an FFL to facilitate the transfer. There is no federal intrafamily exemption to that requirement.

It would be a federal crime for an non-CA-resident mother to transfer a firearm to a CA-resident, even if she was in CA at the time of transfer. She must use a CA FFL to transfer the firearm to a CA resident.

Saym14
05-10-2010, 7:57 PM
I basically have this same issue, let me know how you handle the Magazine issue


have dad mail the mag kits to you ahead of time. build at least one to hold 10 rounds permanantly and then use it for the handling test after your 10 days.

titus7
09-18-2010, 12:18 PM
So can my uncle give me his hk45 he lives in Nevada?

ke6guj
09-18-2010, 12:59 PM
So can my uncle give me his hk45 he lives in Nevada?no, intrafamily exemption applies to grandparent, parent, child, grandchild. Siblings, cousins, uncles, etc do not fall under intrafamily.

luckystrike
10-26-2010, 4:58 PM
so.....my dad out of state can intrafamilia transfer me a off roster pistol, and when it gets to my ffl there is no 10 day wait?

Dr Rockso
10-26-2010, 5:02 PM
so.....my dad out of state can intrafamilia transfer me a off roster pistol, and when it gets to my ffl there is no 10 day wait?
What? No, the roster has nothing to do with the 10 day waiting period.

luckystrike
10-26-2010, 5:06 PM
What? No, the roster has nothing to do with the 10 day waiting period.

roger, just confirming that since its NOT a PPT there is no 10 day wait?

luckystrike
10-26-2010, 5:25 PM
have dad mail the mag kits to you ahead of time. build at least one to hold 10 rounds permanantly and then use it for the handling test after your 10 days.

wait so you DO have to wait 10 days?

ke6guj
10-26-2010, 5:31 PM
wait so you DO have to wait 10 days?

yes, any firearm transfered through a dealer requires you to wait 10-days.

Dr Rockso
10-26-2010, 5:35 PM
roger, just confirming that since its NOT a PPT there is no 10 day wait?

Yes, you still have to wait the 10 days on any firearms purchase through a CA dealer (excluding some corner cases involving C&R transactions where the purchaser holds a certificate of eligibility from the DOJ).

luckystrike
10-26-2010, 5:40 PM
yes, any firearm transfered through a dealer requires you to wait 10-days.

Yes, you still have to wait the 10 days on any firearms purchase through a CA dealer (excluding some corner cases involving C&R transactions where the purchaser holds a certificate of eligibility from the DOJ).

cool, thanks for the help:D

B.J.F.
11-01-2010, 7:47 PM
According to the ATF, your family straight up or down in a line can give you their firearm. When I worked at bright spot, Marna the auditing ATF agent answered that for us. How ever California DOJ does request that you fill out and send in the form to register the firearm and that form does not have a "10 Day Waiting Period" also note that when a family member say a grandfather gifts his firearm to say his legal aged son, daughter, grandson or grandaughter, etc.... that they also be legally able to possess said firearm. You can not just give your family member a firearm if they are not in a straight line, say your brother, cousin, aunt or uncle a firearm with out doing a PPT and a 10 day wait. Also note they have to personally give you the firearm either by them bringing it to you or you going to get it. FFL transfer rules only apply if they mail it

B.J.F.
11-01-2010, 7:58 PM
luckystrike, you also cannot do a PPT of an off roster handgun if the person you are getting the handgun from is not present in the store at the time of the registration. PPT is only for the currently registered owner to transfer to a new owner

ke6guj
11-01-2010, 7:59 PM
According to the ATF, your family straight up or down in a line can give you their firearm. When I worked at bright spot, Marna the auditing ATF agent answered that for us. How ever California DOJ does request that you fill out and send in the form to register the firearm and that form does not have a "10 Day Waiting Period" also note that when a family member say a grandfather gifts his firearm to say his legal aged son, daughter, grandson or grandaughter, etc.... that they also be legally able to possess said firearm. You can not just give your family member a firearm if they are not in a straight line, say your brother, cousin, aunt or uncle a firearm with out doing a PPT and a 10 day wait. Also note they have to personally give you the firearm either by them bringing it to you or you going to get it. FFL transfer rules only apply if they mail it

why does ATF care about CA law? We know that there is an intrafamily exemption to CA law.

If you are saying that ATF is saying that there is a federal intrafamily exemption to the interstate transfer law, I'd like to see the exemption.

B.J.F.
11-02-2010, 11:54 AM
For me to receive my grandfathers revolver, who lives in wisconsin. He had to come here and hand it to me personally. Granted, to come to CA to give someone something on its own is way more expensive than just using a FFL so you allready have to be comming for a visit.

ke6guj
11-02-2010, 12:50 PM
For me to receive my grandfathers revolver, who lives in wisconsin. He had to come here and hand it to me personally. Granted, to come to CA to give someone something on its own is way more expensive than just using a FFL so you allready have to be comming for a visit.

handed it to you personally, as in he did it without using an FFL?

If so, how did he do it without violating this regulation?

§ 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and

(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.


your grandfather was still alive, so exemption (a) does not apply.

Librarian
11-02-2010, 12:51 PM
For me to receive my grandfathers revolver, who lives in wisconsin. He had to come here and hand it to me personally. Granted, to come to CA to give someone something on its own is way more expensive than just using a FFL so you allready have to be comming for a visit.

That sounds like a problem.

Inheritance is exempt from using an FFL on an interstate transfer. If your grandfather came to CA and handed you the revolver, he clearly was still around (and long may he be so!) and 'inheritance' does not apply.

Should have both gone to a CA FFL and done the interstate transfer there. But shipment from WI to a CA FFL (who understood what was happening and was expecting the gun) would also have worked.

philobeddoe
11-03-2010, 2:07 PM
I haven't read every post, so forgive me if this has been covered,

but over the years I have done numerous intrafamily transfers, legally, with off roster handguns, between out of state family members

there is no requirement for background check or roster compliance, nor FFL transfer

registering the handgun with CA DOJ is completely elective

the only issue is that the transfer must be done FTF,
either by the family member coming to CA with the handgun,
or you traveling to the family member to pick up the handgun,
and then transporting it legally back to CA ... for example via car or airline

but you may not ship the gun into the state

.

ke6guj
11-03-2010, 2:14 PM
I haven't read every post, so forgive me if this has been covered,it would have been nice if you had at least read the first post of this thread, where it explains that you can't do an intrafamily interstate transfer without using a CA FFL.

but over the years I have done numerous intrafamily transfers, legally, with off roster handguns, between out of state family members

there is no requirement for background check or roster compliance, nor FFL transferif you didn't use a CA FFL to facilitate the transfer, federal law was violated in the process, so it wasn't done legallly.


registering the handgun with CA DOJ is completely elective
how do you figure. CA says that intrafamily handgun transfers have to be reported to CADOJ.


the only issue is that the transfer must be done FTF,
either by the family member coming to CA with the handgun,
or you traveling to the family member to pick up the handgun,
and then transporting it legally back to CA ... for example via car or airline

but you may not ship the gun into the state

.both options you mention violate federal law. In both cases, the out-of-state person violates federal law by transfering a firearm to a person of a different state, without using an FFL.

In the second case, if you bring a firearm you acquire out-of-state back to your home state, you also have violated federal law.

JeepFreak
11-06-2010, 6:16 AM
Please correct / advise me on this idea.

Colorado sister could gift a new non-list handgun to California Father. Once it is here, California father could gift the item to California son?

Should there be a period of time between each transfer, or could it just be as simple as Dad gets the gun in Cali, decides he doesnt like / want it and gifts it to son?

Thanks in advance for the comments, I really appreciate the contributions from the CG members / founders who have posted to this thread. Artherd, Librarian, or any other CG board member...If you are ever up in the Redding area, the drinks are on me.

Thanks Lex

I'm still looking for an answer to this question. If somebody knows, please share. If I find the answer elsewhere, I'll be sure to post it here as well. This thread has really helped me and I think this would make it a bit more complete.

Thanks,
Billy

luckystrike
11-06-2010, 6:14 PM
luckystrike, you also cannot do a PPT of an off roster handgun if the person you are getting the handgun from is not present in the store at the time of the registration. PPT is only for the currently registered owner to transfer to a new owner

It never said that, from what I got from it, it can be shipped to me ffl

jtmkinsd
11-18-2010, 10:51 PM
I'm still looking for an answer to this question. If somebody knows, please share. If I find the answer elsewhere, I'll be sure to post it here as well. This thread has really helped me and I think this would make it a bit more complete.

Thanks,
Billy

If the sister is shipping the firearm to a CA FFL, the father would do a 4473 and DROS, wait ten days, and pick up the firearm. There is no specific time limit on when the father can then gift the firearm to his son. Theoretically, he could bring the firearm home, give it to his son, and the son would then have to fill out the Operation of Law / Intrafamilial Handgun Transfer form and mail it to DOJ with the $19 fee.

JeepFreak
11-19-2010, 5:22 AM
It never said that, from what I got from it, it can be shipped to me ffl

It can be shipped... you just have to find a CA FFL to receive it. Many of the ones I called want the sendor to be there in person.
Billy

JeepFreak
11-19-2010, 5:22 AM
If the sister is shipping the firearm to a CA FFL, the father would do a 4473 and DROS, wait ten days, and pick up the firearm. There is no specific time limit on when the father can then gift the firearm to his son. Theoretically, he could bring the firearm home, give it to his son, and the son would then have to fill out the Operation of Law / Intrafamilial Handgun Transfer form and mail it to DOJ with the $19 fee.

Thanks jtmkinsd!
Billy

bwiese
11-21-2010, 11:19 AM
If the sister is shipping the firearm to a CA FFL, the father would do a 4473 and DROS, wait ten days, and pick up the firearm. There is no specific time limit on when the father can then gift the firearm to his son. Theoretically, he could bring the firearm home, give it to his son, and the son would then have to fill out the Operation of Law / Intrafamilial Handgun Transfer form and mail it to DOJ with the $19 fee.

No. Not quite so fast.

You can't structure such a transfer thru multisteps. There's PC out there I don't recall, I saw it the other week.

While there's no time specified, and dad can decide he doesn't like the gun, such "flipping" would be easily determined from the DROS data.

At best, Dad should spend some time really figuring if he likes the gun or not.

jtmkinsd
11-21-2010, 11:50 AM
No. Not quite so fast.

You can't structure such a transfer thru multisteps. There's PC out there I don't recall, I saw it the other week.

While there's no time specified, and dad can decide he doesn't like the gun, such "flipping" would be easily determined from the DROS data.

At best, Dad should spend some time really figuring if he likes the gun or not.

A day at the range? I've determined I don't like a particular firearm after two shots. Really I wouldn't even need to fire a firearm to determine I don't like it...if I don't like how it feels in my hand, don't like the weight, a hundred reasons. And while it is illegal to intentionally avoid an FFL...evidence of such intent is extremely hard to prove...While I agree with the factual essence of your statement...practical application is another issue.

skidkid22@hotmail.com
11-22-2010, 1:39 PM
So... I have been through this as well, my dad lives out of state and when I ask my FFL in Oceanside they say he has to bring the Springfield XDM to California to do the transfer in person. I am seeing alot of back and forth here, can someone please let me know of an FFL in San Diego that knows how to do this transfer without him flying it out to me?

jtmkinsd
11-22-2010, 7:48 PM
So... I have been through this as well, my dad lives out of state and when I ask my FFL in Oceanside they say he has to bring the Springfield XDM to California to do the transfer in person. I am seeing alot of back and forth here, can someone please let me know of an FFL in San Diego that knows how to do this transfer without him flying it out to me?

Try Gussler's in Santee, CA

koxx.dta
11-22-2010, 10:40 PM
do lowers work the same way? how about a pistol ar lower? just curious

jtmkinsd
11-22-2010, 11:12 PM
do lowers work the same way? how about a pistol ar lower? just curious

Intrafamilial transfers are exempt from the roster, so yes, if dad had a pistol lower he wanted to transfer to his son, it's fine.

philobeddoe
11-25-2010, 10:51 AM
it would have been nice if you had at least read the first post of this thread, where it explains that you can't do an intrafamily interstate transfer without using a CA FFL.

if you didn't use a CA FFL to facilitate the transfer, federal law was violated in the process, so it wasn't done legallly.



how do you figure. CA says that intrafamily handgun transfers have to be reported to CADOJ.


both options you mention violate federal law. In both cases, the out-of-state person violates federal law by transfering a firearm to a person of a different state, without using an FFL.

In the second case, if you bring a firearm you acquire out-of-state back to your home state, you also have violated federal law.


Thanks for the response, but you're wrong.

I pursued and prosecuted my transfers in full compliance with Federal and State Law, and in direct consultation with BATF and CA DOJ.

ke6guj
11-25-2010, 12:37 PM
Thanks for the response, but you're wrong.

I pursued and prosecuted my transfers in full compliance with Federal and State Law, and in direct consultation with BATF and CA DOJ.

what did BATF give you in writing that shows that 478.29 and 478.30 don't apply to you interstate intrafamily transfers?

§ 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.
top
No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of §478.96(c) and

(c) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with the provisions of §§478.30 and 478.97.

[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10493, Mar. 31, 1988]


§ 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.
top
No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and

(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[T.D. ATF–313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991; 57 FR 1205, Jan. 10, 1992]there is no intrafamily exemption in the above federal regs.



and how did you comply with state law without reporting the transfers to CADOJ? did CADOJ tell you in writing that you don't have to report intrafamily handgun transfers to CADOJ?

12078(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family and all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the Department of Justice.
(B) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a basic firearms safety certificate. If taking possession on or after January 1, 2003, the person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a handgun safety certificate.
(C) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.
(3) As used in this subdivision, "immediate family member" means any one of the following relationships:
(A) Parent and child.
(B) Grandparent and grandchild.

jtmkinsd
11-25-2010, 10:13 PM
Thanks for the response, but you're wrong.

I pursued and prosecuted my transfers in full compliance with Federal and State Law, and in direct consultation with BATF and CA DOJ.

I'm afraid you're misinformed, no matter who gave you the information. There is no Federal exemption for intrafamilial transfers. So driving or flying into CA and leaving a gun with anybody is a Federal Crime. CA offers a Safe Handgun Roster exemption for intrafamilial transfers, and if they are both CA residents, no FFL is needed. If the firearm comes in from out of State, both Federal, and CA State law requires it to go through an FFL. There are a number of threads on this site which point to the relevent statutes.

vico512
11-27-2010, 8:31 AM
OK - gang. I've read so many strings (including the CGF Wiki) that, every time I think I've "got it", I read something else that adds to the confusion. So, here's the specifics:

I live in Washington State. My son (in his mid-20s) lives in the LA area, and belongs to a club in Burbank. I would like to buy him a Springfield XDm .45ACP. So, I purchase the gun here in Seattle, and also buy a couple of 10-round magazines for it. I find an FFL in the LA area that will accept it. I send it to the FFL with a clear statement that it's a gift, and who I am and who he is. He goes in and fills-out the paperwork, waits the 10 days, pays the fee and gets the handgun (He has his HSC.).

Do I have this correct, or am I missing something?

Thanks.

Librarian
11-27-2010, 8:50 AM
OK - gang. I've read so many strings (including the CGF Wiki) that, every time I think I've "got it", I read something else that adds to the confusion. So, here's the specifics:

I live in Washington State.

My son (in his mid-20s) lives in the LA area, and belongs to a club in Burbank.

I would like to buy him a Springfield XDm .45ACP.

So, I purchase the gun here in Seattle, and
also buy a couple of 10-round magazines for it.
I find an FFL in the LA area that will accept it.
I send it to the FFL with a clear statement that it's a gift, and who I am and who he is.
[My son] has his HSC.
He goes in and fills-out the paperwork, waits the 10 days, pays the fee and gets the handgun .


Do I have this correct, or am I missing something?

Thanks.

That's exactly right - I reformatted your post so the steps are clear, but you have all of them.

vico512
11-27-2010, 8:55 AM
OK - thanks much.

I joined this forum primarily to attempt to become familiar with all "stuff" he will have to put up with down there. This has been helpful. I intend to make donation to the CGF to help your cause.

Cheers from "up North".

jtmkinsd
11-27-2010, 9:08 AM
Perfect...just make sure in the gift letter you include the firearm's make, model, and serial number. The FFL will probably require a legible copy of your state ID as well.

philobeddoe
11-29-2010, 2:37 PM
I'm afraid you're misinformed, no matter who gave you the information. There is no Federal exemption for intrafamilial transfers. So driving or flying into CA and leaving a gun with anybody is a Federal Crime. CA offers a Safe Handgun Roster exemption for intrafamilial transfers, and if they are both CA residents, no FFL is needed. If the firearm comes in from out of State, both Federal, and CA State law requires it to go through an FFL. There are a number of threads on this site which point to the relevent statutes.

Don't be afraid. You are correct and I owe you an apology. I apologize.

I reviewed my records, and you are correct. The particular transaction I referenced, involving the 1911's, was in fact an intrafamily transfer, but the transfer from my family member to me was intrastate and not interstate.

Again, my humble apologies.

edlacy
12-02-2010, 10:38 AM
Anyone know of an FFL in the northern central valley who will do an Intrafamial transfer?

My FFL says it can't be done. Period, end of story....

I'm in Modesto and would really apperciate knowing of a dealer who could do the transfer for me.
It would be between me and my son who lives in Florida.
Thanks
Ed

bwiese
12-04-2010, 6:14 PM
Anyone know of an FFL in the northern central valley who will do an Intrafamial transfer?

My FFL says it can't be done. Period, end of story....

I'm in Modesto and would really apperciate knowing of a dealer who could do the transfer for me. It would be between me and my son who lives in Florida.


Ed,

Time for a competent FFL.

If you can get over to Tracy, I am confident that Polish Mike's shop can help. Send a PM to PolishMike here... he's good guy and has a good IQ.

PacMan
12-06-2010, 1:42 PM
Try Gussler's in Santee, CA


Great thread, tried Gussler, no luck there ... he was of the opinion that an FFL wasn't needed. I really want to believe him, but am pretty concerned about violating federal law. Any other recommendations for an FFL in San Diego for intrafamilial interstate transfer of an off roster handgun? If Gussler thought it was necessary I would go to him, seemed like a nice guy.

ke6guj
12-06-2010, 3:07 PM
ask him how you can do an interstate intrafamily transfer without involving and FFL and not violate these federal regulations?

§ 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of §478.96(c) and

(c) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with the provisions of §§478.30 and 478.97.

[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10493, Mar. 31, 1988]

§ 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and

(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[T.D. ATF–313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991; 57 FR 1205, Jan. 10, 1992]


alternatively, even thought he was of the opinion that an FFL wasn't needed, that doesn't mean that you couldn't use an FFL to be extra safe. Similiar to how some people won't do a paperless transfer of a 50+ year-old rifle, but want it done as a PPT through a dealer "for their protection". Just because it doesn't have to be done through a dealer doesn't mean that it can.t


I've had friends sell rifles while out of state and the buyer's FFL tried to say that they could just do a cash-and-carry FTF transfer, no FFL needed. My friend was smart enough to get that sale through the FFL's books, to protect himself. He explained to the FFL that the FFL could just log it in from him, and then do a 4473 to the buyer (with whatever NCIS stuff he needed to do as well) and my friend was willing to pay him his transfer fee to do that. the FFL agreed.

jtmkinsd
12-06-2010, 9:18 PM
Great thread, tried Gussler, no luck there ... he was of the opinion that an FFL wasn't needed. I really want to believe him, but am pretty concerned about violating federal law. Any other recommendations for an FFL in San Diego for intrafamilial interstate transfer of an off roster handgun? If Gussler thought it was necessary I would go to him, seemed like a nice guy.

I know he's done these types of transfers in the past...so as suggested, I would ask him to receive the firearm and you'd like to do the paperwork on it.