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Vonshliken12
12-10-2008, 9:18 PM
So I was watching a video comparing the two in certain conditions such as submerged and then fired and the HK performed fine and the AR blew up. Are there any AR uppers that I could slap on my lower that I could abuse with sand and water where it wouldn't blow up in my face?

sigsauer887
12-10-2008, 9:20 PM
Why? Are you aqua man or something?

BTW, the film was biased, re-watch and you'll see what I mean

Peashooter
12-10-2008, 9:23 PM
The most overrated super operator elite overpriced cant get it here equipment you dont need.

Vonshliken12
12-10-2008, 9:23 PM
I though so too. Im assuming that he gave the HK a good shake before shooting and not so for the AR. Me and my buddy re watched it and he actually shook it. But I agree the film was in Deutsch or German I'm not sure so I could see them favoring the home team over the imposing Americans.

ChrisXD45T
12-10-2008, 9:29 PM
Maybe you missed it but I did a little write up on it, skip the first part and read my updates starting on page 5.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=116528
I've abused it and found that this particular rifle is not a magic uber rifle. Didn't go beyond any of the normal punishment I've seen M4's put through.
Still, a lot of SF guys I talk to love it.

aplinker
12-10-2008, 10:06 PM
HK... you can't buy it. Because you suck, and they hate you.

It's a great upper, but that's it. It's not magic.

m24armorer
12-10-2008, 10:36 PM
It is really not that great.

Peashooter
12-10-2008, 10:42 PM
In case you missed it?
I said it already

Vonshliken12
12-10-2008, 10:54 PM
I'm confused. So the HK 416 sucks. I can buy that but I thought the AR was still really sensitive to water and sand or am I misinformed by people stuck in the Vietnam days of the A2.

Addax
12-10-2008, 11:13 PM
HK... you can't buy it. Because you suck, and they hate you.

It's a great upper, but that's it. It's not magic.

That pretty much sums it up..

Toolbox X
12-10-2008, 11:19 PM
Just buy a piston upper from Addax. They are better and many thousands of dollars cheaper.

CWM4A1
12-11-2008, 3:07 AM
I can see the shake (not much), but if you count the time, in the 416 vs M4 video the tester waited almost 3 seconds before firing the 416 (more time for water to drain); while on the other hand only waited about 1 second to fire the M4. Can't see how the barrel angle either as video wasn't taken at the same angle so it gets a litttle hard to tell; but it seems 416 was aim lower while M4 was aim higher thus M4 might retain more water. Also the fact that 416 tested in the video was 10" barrel while M4 was 14.5" barrel, that extra 4.5" barrel could mean more water and more resistant, i.e. barrel obstruction during live fire. Under the typical condition in So Cal, I can't see much benefit gain from 416 vs M4, or piston vs DI in general; and yes, I did shoot my M4 in a rainy day before, over 1k rounds without failure of any kind.

badicedog
12-11-2008, 8:01 AM
I don't see the point of this thread. It is really a preference more then anything else for us with semi use. The only advantages are under full auto use with the HK not having heat transfer to the BCG and ofcourse the HK barrel.

ChrisXD45T
12-11-2008, 5:09 PM
I'm confused. So the HK 416 sucks. I can buy that but I thought the AR was still really sensitive to water and sand or am I misinformed by people stuck in the Vietnam days of the A2.

It doesn't suck, it's just not as good as people will have you believe, and definitely not enough of an improvement over the weapon people expect it to potentially replace.

One thing that the proponents of the 416 seem to ignore is that all rifles are sensitive to excessive amounts of water and/or sand, it's just a matter of to what degree.

CWM4A1
12-11-2008, 5:44 PM
The way I look at it... AR was design with DI, better keep it that way. Most if not all of the aftermarket piston kit suffers from some degrees of bolt carrier tilt issue which will leave ugly marks in your buffer tube. That has pretty much cool me off from adding any kit to my DI AR.

If I seriously wants to have a piston system weapon, I would choose from SIG 556, XCR, M96, or MASADA/SCAR when they become available (or if they ever become available). These guns are design from ground up to use piston, I would trust them more then any of the after market piston kit for AR.

One can argue that HK416 is also design from ground up to be a piston gun; but bottom line is that 416 still is an improvement of the AR platform. If I want to buy a piston action rifle, I would like to have folding stock which an AR platform will never be able to offer.

Chris, Regarding your finding of 416 being picky on magazine; if it's possible, have you ever think about change the lower to see if that solve any problem? Pmag does not fit in 416 lower certainly is related to lower being manufacture with too tight of a tolerance; I am just wondering if you slap the 416 upper to a standard AR lower, and if that all of a sudden solve the mag reliability issue you have seen, that would be really interesting...

ChrisXD45T
12-11-2008, 7:54 PM
One can argue that HK416 is also design from ground up to be a piston gun; but bottom line is that 416 still is an improvement of the AR platform.I wouldn't go so far as to call it an improvement; all they did was jury-rig a G36 gas system to an M4.
If I want to buy a piston action rifle, I would like to have folding stock which an AR platform will never be able to offer.It's been done. ZM weapons did it, then went out of business or something. Now, in my latest issue of The Blue Press it looks like Para USA bought the patent, cause their new rifle is the exact same thing.

Chris, Regarding your finding of 416 being picky on magazine; if it's possible, have you ever think about change the lower to see if that solve any problem? Pmag does not fit in 416 lower certainly is related to lower being manufacture with too tight of a tolerance; I am just wondering if you slap the 416 upper to a standard AR lower, and if that all of a sudden solve the mag reliability issue you have seen, that would be really interesting...I'll be shooting it again tomorrow, it's worth a shot. I've cleaned it thoroughly; see if that helps too.

CWM4A1
12-11-2008, 10:59 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to call it an improvement; all they did was jury-rig a G36 gas system to an M4.
That's why I can' justify spending several thousand dollars to get something that does not work much better in the condition I would shoot my weapons in. The C/P ratio is just no there.

It's been done. ZM weapons did it, then went out of business or something. Now, in my latest issue of The Blue Press it looks like Para USA bought the patent, cause their new rifle is the exact same thing.

Yeah, I know about the LR300. However, the bolt is unique and upper is unique, with that system you can't put a regular upper on the lower ans still function the same way. AR is famous for it's modular design and parts availability. Using LR300 kind of defeats that purpose.

I'll be shooting it again tomorrow, it's worth a shot. I've cleaned it thoroughly; see if that helps too.

Looking forward to see your results.