UTAH CCW APP SENT

[Anthonysmanifesto]

Today , December 8th I mailed my completed application and a check.


will re-post when they cash my check

and then again my approval or denial receipt.

[groovielou]

Sent mine in on the 5th....

Let's who gets theirs first, the race is ON! I used the CC form, so I will see when that gets charged to my account.

Congratulations by the way...

Lou

[MP301]

I did my Nevada while i was in Vegas and sent my Utah at the same time....October 2nd 2008. I got my Nevada in 21 days and still have not rec'd my Utah yet. Utah did, however, tap my credit card for the fee about 3 weeks after I sent it in....

[hawk1]

Today , December 8th I mailed my completed application and a check.


will re-post when they cash my check

and then again my approval or denial receipt.

This is Utah, not California. :p
There will be no denial! If you met their requirements, you will be issued.

[halifax]

Sent mine in on Oct 10th, check cashed Oct 16th, Permit Issued date Dec 4th, received permit in the mail TODAY :)

BTW, 308fan (instructor) must have bought his camera used from a correctional facility. If I were the one issuing the permits, no way would I have given one to a guy with a mug shot like mine. :43:

[1BigPea]

Can you share what the process is to complete this? I found a site online that seems to cater to obtaining a Utah CCW or Florida CCW for residents of CA.

Did you go through a place like http://www.americanccw.com/index.html or did you do it on your own?

This is very interesting to me since I travel to NV quite often.

Any input/advice is appreciated.

[sorensen440]

Can you share what the process is to complete this? I found a site online that seems to cater to obtaining a Utah CCW or Florida CCW for residents of CA.

Did you go through a place like http://www.americanccw.com/index.html or did you do it on your own?

This is very interesting to me since I travel to NV quite often.

Any input/advice is appreciated.

take a class that offers fingerprinting photos and a notary then mail it all in with 65 bucks and wait
do a search on here I'm sure there is one in your area in the near future

[Anthonysmanifesto]

Can you share what the process is to complete this? I found a site online that seems to cater to obtaining a Utah CCW or Florida CCW for residents of CA.

Did you go through a place like http://www.americanccw.com/index.html or did you do it on your own?

This is very interesting to me since I travel to NV quite often.

Any input/advice is appreciated.

if you spend time in nevada you may also consider getting a nevada permit.

but to your question: you need to find a certified Utah instructor to tak ethe Utah permit class.

after that you follow the instructions which include fingerprint card, passport phot and an application and a check.

[308fan]

Sent mine in on Oct 10th, check cashed Oct 16th, Permit Issued date Dec 4th, received permit in the mail TODAY :)

BTW, 308fan (instructor) must have bought his camera used from a correctional facility. If I were the one issuing the permits, no way would I have given one to a guy with a mug shot like mine. :43:

You didn't like the mug shot? I thought it was a work of art. lol

[sorensen440]

You didn't like the mug shot? I thought it was a work of art. lol

Mine was so crummy I ended up taking a replacement and printing it myself lol

[1BigPea]

if you spend time in nevada you may also consider getting a nevada permit.

but to your question: you need to find a certified Utah instructor to tak ethe Utah permit class.

after that you follow the instructions which include fingerprint card, passport phot and an application and a check.


Thanks all, I'll move forward with finding an instructor for the course.

[hawk1]

Thanks all, I'll move forward with finding an instructor for the course.

Keep in mind, the Utah permit is valid in Neveda plus the other states. Why limit yourself to just Neveda? Utah offers so much more, for less money as well

[Anthonysmanifesto]

Mine was so crummy I ended up taking a replacement and printing it myself lol

you should see my actual passport photo- looks like ive been in a street fight- oh well ill get in a new one in 10 years

[mecam]

I hope you guys used the correct FBI finger print card. Mine was delayed by a month because I had a slightly older FBI FP card. The one UTAH wants is the form FD-258.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/pdf/fpcardb.pdf

-

[LOW2000]

www.ccwusa.com Also does Utah and Florida CCW classes with fingerprinting, photos and notary on site. Bill is a good guy and San Diego might not be too bad a drive from OC.

[1BigPea]

Anyone in South Orange County interested in getting a certified Utah instructor to give a group course?

[groovielou]

I hope you guys used the correct FBI finger print card.

Oh boy, I did notice that. My fingerprint card was slightly different from the one in the example. I followed the instructions implicitly, "fingerprint cards available at your local law enforcement department" (or words to that effect).

Lou

[halifax]

You didn't like the mug shot? I thought it was a work of art. lol

It was a work of art. Like Nick Nolte's booking photo was a work of art. :rofl:

No disrespect intended on your equipment. I guess I'm just not photogenic. :(

[mecam]

Oh boy, I did notice that. My fingerprint card was slightly different from the one in the example. I followed the instructions implicitly, "fingerprint cards available at your local law enforcement department" (or words to that effect).

Lou

Utah DOJ sent me the correct ones and I had to retake them and pay another finger print fee. Also make sure your prints are wide from edge to edge of each finger.

[97F1504RAD]

Excuse my ignorance but what are the benefits of doing benefits like this?

[mecam]

Excuse my ignorance but what are the benefits of doing benefits like this?

You can conceal if you go to Nevada, Arizona, Washington, etc... 29 total states for non Utah residents. Unfortunately CA and OR are excluded.

[97F1504RAD]

You can conceal if you go to Nevada, Arizona, Washington, etc... 29 total states for non Utah residents. Unfortunately CA and OR are excluded.

Thank You

So how does one go about finding the course that is required in this area?

[JimAmentler]

Thank You

So how does one go about finding the course that is required in this area?

Which part of NorCal are you in?

[97F1504RAD]

Fairfield area

I see you are the man i need to be in touch with. I cannot make the courses you have listed but would be intrested in this.
I have saved your site info.

Thank You

[JimAmentler]

My pleasure. My web site has upcoming dates listed. There will be more added. Let me know if you have any other questions.

[Liberty1]

from BCI

http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/index.html

Concealed Weapon Permit Application Processing
We are processing applications within 60 days as required by law.

Now is that 60 calendar or working days (they only "work" 4 days a week Mon-Thurs).

[JimAmentler]

from BCI

http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/index.html



Now is that 60 calendar or working days (they only "work" 4 days a week Mon-Thurs).

It's 60 calendar days from the day that they cash your check/money order or charge your credit/debit card.

While they are now working M-TH, they are working the same amount of hours that they did during the traditional M-F work week. They are working 11 hour days. 7AM-6PM. You also have to factor in the CCW instructor course that they run once a month on a Saturday. They are there all day for that as well.

[MudCamper]

Woohoo! Just got my Utah CFP today. They cashed my check back on October 22. Thanks again 308fan!

[dwtt]

Mine was so crummy I ended up taking a replacement and printing it myself lol

When I sent in my application, I was in a rush so I cut out a picture from a photograph taken when I was wearing my biking clothes. Boy, did I regret that. I look like a real dork in a nylon cycling jersey, and now it's on my permit.

[JimAmentler]

When I sent in my application, I was in a rush so I cut out a picture from a photograph taken when I was wearing my biking clothes. Boy, did I regret that. I look like a real dork in a nylon cycling jersey, and now it's on my permit.

You should see some of the photos that BCI showed us during my instructor recert class. There were some very poor and interesting choices sent in by some. They asked the applicants for new PROPER photos and kept the others to give instructors examples of what NOT to have your students send.

[Liberty1]

Woohoo! Just got my Utah CFP today. They cashed my check back on October 22. Thanks again 308fan!

WooHoo! Now you can open carry with one in the chamber when in UT!

[Anthonysmanifesto]

Utah Check cashed and posted to my account on 12/19

[mjv]

They received my packet on 11/26 and as of yet have not cashed my check.

[sorensen440]

They received my packet on 11/26 and as of yet have not cashed my check.

That doesnt seem right
Mine was cashed a week after I mailed it

[JimAmentler]

That doesnt seem right
Mine was cashed a week after I mailed it

Sorenson is correct, that doesn't sound right. Give them a call and ask them if there is a problem with your package. There may be a letter in the mail telling you that you need something else. Only one way to find out though. Good people there. Give a call or shoot Laura an email.

[mecam]

They received my packet on 11/26 and as of yet have not cashed my check.

Be patient, it took 6 weeks to cash my check after they received my packet. Then after two weeks of cashing my check, they sent me a packet to redo my finger prints. It took close to 3 months to receive my permit.

[hawk1]

WooHoo! Now you can open carry with one in the chamber when in UT!

Whats the point of loaded open carry if you have a CCW? Other than you possibly being the bad guys first takedown if you find yourself in that situation.

Also, a good chance your permit could be pulled for doing this. Yeah, I read about the soccer mom back east, etc...
This is Utah and I wouldn't risk my non-resident permit to prove a point to someone else.
This has FAIL all over it.

[sorensen440]

Whats the point of loaded open carry if you have a CCW? Other than you possibly being the bad guys first takedown if you find yourself in that situation.

Also, a good chance your permit could be pulled for doing this. Yeah, I read about the soccer mom back east, etc...
This is Utah and I wouldn't risk my non-resident permit to prove a point to someone else.
This has FAIL all over it.

Depending on whereabouts I am open carry would be beneficial as I could carry my 6 inch 686

[Glock22Fan]

Whats the point of loaded open carry if you have a CCW? Other than you possibly being the bad guys first takedown if you find yourself in that situation.

Also, a good chance your permit could be pulled for doing this. Yeah, I read about the soccer mom back east, etc...
This is Utah and I wouldn't risk my non-resident permit to prove a point to someone else.
This has FAIL all over it.

My Utah friends tell me no problem with LOC in their rural area, but they wouldn't risk it somewhere like Salt Lake City. Didn't I see a SLC case on this forum recently?

[Ironchef]

My Utah friends tell me no problem with LOC in their rural area, but they wouldn't risk it somewhere like Salt Lake City. Didn't I see a SLC case on this forum recently?


You saw the SLC cops beating down a semi-crippled man feeding ducks at Liberty Park. Someone called in a MWG and the cops wrestled with this unarmed man and he ended up with a brain injury and footed the bill for his surgury..and the 3 cops walked...and the court made a nice open carry related decision saying it was legal..even though the suspect didn't even have one.

So with that nice precedent and example in SLC, they should be abundantly clear now on MWG calls and someone OCing...hopefully.

[s2000news]

I did both my Utah and Florida back in Oct.

Just received my FL one, due to a bad Fingerprint card, had to resubmit a new card.

Now I just need to travel more to use them out of CA. LOL

[jrsportssupply]

They must be getting inundated. I sent my packet in around 11/23, and they just cashed my check. So, I should have my CCW by 2/23; I was hoping earlier since I'm travelling to NV on 1/11. Maybe I'll get lucky...

[groovielou]

$65.25 Charge went through on 12/24!

Does that mean my fingerprint card was accepted?

Lou

[MP301]

Nevada delivered in 21 days, Utah Delivered in about 61 days and I just sent of Florida today.... Collect them all I was told!

[sorensen440]

Got my utah today
:party:
11/12/08-1/8/09

[ontmark]

I have got to renew my Florida CCW this year!

[BroncoBob]

I signed up with Doc and going to take my class on 2/8 at J&R Sports in Livermore.

[Anthonysmanifesto]

exactly 74 calendar days from mailbox to mailbox!

[jrsportssupply]

Got mine today! Woohoo!

[groovielou]

Just as I predicted, my Utah CCW arrived today!

Thanks Utah!

Lou

[djacks]

I submitted both Florida and Utah via certified mail on January 9th.
Utah finally cashed the check on February 2nd.
So I am hoping to see the Utah CCW in the next month or two..

Florida have still yet to cash the check.
I called Florida who said not to worry as it was taking 45 business days to simply enter the applications into their system and cash the payment. 9 weeks!!!
So on that basis it could be mid March before the clock actually starts.. and maybe another 2-3 months after that for it to mail..

[DDT]

I'm sure there's been a rise in CCW apps similar to that in the sale of firearms. Are you going somewhere in the next 90 days that this will make inconvenient?

[1BigPea]

Utah charged my card on 2/10, so I've been patiently waiting...

[jay@ccwguy.com]

Even if you checked "yes" to some of the boxes there is a chance you will still get the permit. If you have any questions just let me know.

P.S. My next CCW course is 10am to 2pm 28 Feb in San Jose.

Regards, Jay
www.ccwguy.com

[12gauge12]

I just put mine in the mail today. Lets see how long it takes.

[djacks]

Florida are now reporting that you should NOT call them on status of your CCW application till at least 60 days have passed since you mailed your application package to them - due to "unprecedented demand". I called them as my check has still not been cashed after mailing the package in early January.

[Olav]

I submitted Utah CCW application on February 13th.
Utah finally cashed the check on March 13th.
So I am hoping to see the Utah CCW in the next month or two...

[12gauge12]

I just put mine in the mail today. Lets see how long it takes.

Credit card charged on 3-19. Should be coming soon!

[deleted by PC police]

I sent my Utah app in 60 days ago tommorow. I'm starting to get annoyed.

[Hemijustin]

Can anyone recommend a class for the Utah permit in the san diego area?

Justin

[12gauge12]

I went to Greg Block in OC. Don't know of any in SD.

[fng]

I sent in my utah CCW on 3/18/09, but the checks have yet to be cashed. Bad news, or they are backlogged?

[MRCCW]

I sent my Utah app in 60 days ago tommorow. I'm starting to get annoyed.

Patience is a virtue my friend. You should expect your permit 60 days from the time your method of payment was processed.

If I may....

The Utah BCI has 7 people in the concealed permit division (if I remember correctly). Three of those are investigators. The week I was in Utah for my training, they hit a new record for applications. 1700 applications came in on the previous Tuesday. Yet, they told us to advise our students that they were still @ a 60 day turnaround after payment is processed.

If it has been more than 60 days, you can call the Bureau and ask. But please don't unless it has been more than 60 days. Fielding phone calls backs up the process.

[cedricxerxes]

I took Jim Amentler's class in Livermore on January 11th. My application was received by Utah BCI on January 20th and they charged my credit card on February 6th. I received it yesterday (April 15th), postmarked April 10th.

Total processing time 57 business days.

[G30 Steve]

Yes, new Utah CFP's usually take 60 days (almost to the day).

Some good news though. Renewals are a lot quicker. Last month my renewal took 21 days from mailbox to mailbox. :cool:

[1BigPea]

They ran my CC on Feb 10th, I called them two days ago on the 14th just to find out how far they might be running behind. They were very nice and said my app has been approved and sent out the same day I called.

I should have it in the mail today!!!!!!!! :hurray:

I'll post again when I actually have it in my hand.

[sreiter]

tagged

[natasha69]

I'm down in SD each week for work. But not on weekends. Anyone else want to get a private class together for after work (after 6pm)? We could split the cost. PM me if interested.

[darksands]

Sent Utah App in at the end of February. They charged my card at the end of March. Still waiting...

[Bonez]

I am fortunate to have a beautiful parcel overlooking a fresh water lake in Eden, Utah. In 5-years or less I will be out of CA and retired in Utah.

I saw the Utah CCW permit flyer at my local shop. I am definitely getting on board with this. I thought I would have to wait until I move. Most of my Utah friends have the permit.

What does the course entail?

[azn_wrx]

Patience is a virtue my friend. You should expect your permit 60 days from the time your method of payment was processed.

If I may....

The Utah BCI has 7 people in the concealed permit division (if I remember correctly). Three of those are investigators. The week I was in Utah for my training, they hit a new record for applications. 1700 applications came in on the previous Tuesday. Yet, they told us to advise our students that they were still @ a 60 day turnaround after payment is processed.

If it has been more than 60 days, you can call the Bureau and ask. But please don't unless it has been more than 60 days. Fielding phone calls backs up the process.

I bet they are pretty backed up then.

[dfletcher]

I took the class at the Cow Palace on January 19th - anybody waiting longer than that?

[Dirtbozz]

I bet they are pretty backed up then.


My delay was the DOJ. I called about 70 days after the check was cashed. The person stated that the DOJ report had not returned yet. As I remember, Utah has a law requiring issue within a certain period of time (90 days total from the receipt of the app., I think). I got the impression that if I had not called, they would have not issued until the DOJ report came back. They sent mine with a letter stipulating that my permit would be revoked if the DOJ report came back negative.

The total days in that law is the key. As I said, I don't remember for sure how long a period is involved. But if that law is still valid, a polite call might expedite a given permit issuance. May be worth looking into.

I would recommend that you be sure about this before you call though.

[JimAmentler]

My delay was the DOJ. I called about 70 days after the check was cashed. The person stated that the DOJ report had not returned yet. As I remember, Utah has a law requiring issue within a certain period of time (90 days total from the receipt of the app., I think). I got the impression that if I had not called, they would have not issued until the DOJ report came back. They sent mine with a letter stipulating that my permit would be revoked if the DOJ report came back negative.

The total days in that law is the key. As I said, I don't remember for sure how long a period is involved. But if that law is still valid, a polite call might expedite a given permit issuance. May be worth looking into.

I would recommend that you be sure about this before you call though.

Utah law requires approval or denial within 60 days. BCI used to count the 60 days from receipt of the application and payment. Due to the large volume of applications it is now 60 days from when they charge your card or cash your check/money order. It is currently taking them 3-4 weeks to charge/cash your payment, so your 90 day estimate is pretty close. It's still not as bad as a year or two ago when they were taking up to 6 months door to door due to lack of funding, huge increase in permit applications and needing to hire more help.

The previous application used to tell you not to call until 60 days has passed. The current application tells you not to call to check the status of your application. I can understand that. With the large number of applications coming in it would slow things down considerably to field all of the calls. I also understand wanting to have the permit in hand if you plan on traveling. Hopefully they will be able to add staff even if it's temporary to help get the apps processed.

[12gauge12]

I'm at 60 days since they received my application. Lets see how much longer.

[mecam]

I'm at 60 days since they received my application. Lets see how much longer.

Two Weeks! :thumbsup:

[Baja_Traveler]

Lets see - BCI charged my card on March 3rd, at 70 days I sent an email and got a reply that the process was taking approx. 75 days because of the volume - today it's been 77 days - should be any day now...

[CaptainGlock]

It was 60 days yesterday from the time Utah cashed my check. Nothing yet. :(

[nick]

I took the class at the Cow Palace on January 19th - anybody waiting longer than that?

Me. Sent it in last December.

[Olav]

Sent my application in February 13,Utah cashed my check March 11 just received my CCW today. Total wait: 81 days.

:thumbsup:

[PaintItBlack]

Sent App 1/30/09 - Card Charged 2/27/09 - Received Permit 6/01/09
Wait time: 4 months

Now I have to call to change the address...:pinch:

[azn_wrx]

Sent App 1/30/09 - Card Charged 2/27/09 - Received Permit 6/01/09
Wait time: 4 months

Now I have to call to change the address...:pinch:

Holy cow! I still have a lot more wait time then.

[bigcalidave]

Check cashed today!

Yay, only 60-90 days now.

[12gauge12]

On 5-19-09
"I'm at 60 days since they received my application. Lets see how much longer. "

So, CC charged 3-19-2009, Permit received 6-12-2009. So just under 90 days.

[bigcalidave]

Sweet...

[OntheRocks]

Received 5-11-09.

Check cashed 6-10-09.

So it looks like a couple more months.:(

[DeLaSeoulRZN]

we must all be in the same batch...i sent mine in 5/14 and it was cashed 6/12

[12GAUGE]

My CC was charged on 6-10-09

[f00lish1]

App sent 04/10.

CC charged 04/26.

Permit received 06/19.

:yes:

[gucci pilot]

I just sent my app in today. I guessing I'll get it by the end of August.

[jello2594]

I sent in my app (plus Florida) 6/17

[dfletcher]

Applied Jan 17th, received June 7th.

[DeMartile]

308fan- i see that you list yourself in the wine country. i'm near there. anyhow, do you offer ccw requisite classes in your area? i've sent the Fairfield PD a few emails to date asking them if they also hold similar classes for someone wanting to obtain a ccw. haven't heard squat from them, not even a "no we don't do that" reply

[darksands]

I sent in my App end of Feb. Just got it last week. I got a letter about 2 weeks ago telling me that a passport is not proof of citizenship so I sent a copy of my Citizenship Certificate. Takes 3 months so be patient. Still waiting on Florida...

[bigcalidave]

Yay! Check cashed 6-12, permit received yesterday, 8-11. Of course, it's useless in NV where I needed it. But whatever.

[Big Jake]

Good luck and congrats to all who got their non-resident ccw. Just wait until you have a chance to use it for the first time! Great feeling of freedom!:D

[Jeremy K.]

Does anyone know if a permit renewal has the same processing lag time?

[high_lander]

I turned in my stuff in May and haven't gotten t yet. Waiting....

I am however going to take the NV class and permit in Sep or Oct.

[SDI]

Just had one of my students report in. It took 4 months to the day for his Utah CCW.

[wildhawker]

Wife's app sent 5/10/09, check cancelled 6/11/09, no CCW yet (8/12)
My app sent 5/18/09, check cancelled 6/17/09, no CCW yet (8/12)

[Python2]

Does anybody know validity range of CCW class certificate for Utah? Taking my renewal Class for Nevada this week which also gives me Florida and Utah sign off but my Utah expires Dec of 2010. I understand its 12 months in Nevada.

[Big Jake]

Does anybody know validity range of CCW class certificate for Utah? Taking my renewal Class for Nevada this week which also gives me Florida and Utah sign off but my Utah expires Dec of 2010. I understand its 12 months in Nevada.

Utah does not require a refresher class for renewal. Just pay the $10.00 and you get a new permit!:)

[wildhawker]

*update*

Wife's app sent 5/10/09, check cancelled 6/11/09, CCW arrived 8/14/09
My app sent 5/18/09, check cancelled 6/17/09, CCW arrived 8/19/09

[Invisible_Dave]

Yay! Check cashed 6-12, permit received yesterday, 8-11. Of course, it's useless in NV where I needed it. But whatever.

The Nevada permit process was pretty easy. Companies are setting up weekday and sunday classes to help avoid 2 trip since both class and application need to be done in Nevada. My pops and I took the class together and had a great time.

[12GAUGE]

My CC was charged on 6-10-09

Still waiting:(

[OntheRocks]

Received 5-11-09.

Check cashed 6-10-09.

So it looks like a couple more months.:(

Got mine a couple of weeks ago.:mnl:

[12GAUGE]

HMMMM Should I call them ?

[gucci pilot]

*update*

Wife's app sent 5/10/09, check cancelled 6/11/09, CCW arrived 8/14/09
My app sent 5/18/09, check cancelled 6/17/09, CCW arrived 8/19/09

If that timeline holds true, I should be getting mine this week or so. Sweet!

[12GAUGE]

I called and asked if they could check the status of my application. The guy said no they can't check that, I told him I know some people that had there checks cashed around the same time already received the license. He told me that that was hard to believe ,and it takes at least 4 months.

[natasha69]

he's right. i just got my response from them. i was born out of the US, so they required my naturalization certificate # (not my passport). they are very particular. so, here i wait, (probably another 2 months). i got that letter 3-4 months after i first applied. and i used a credit card.

[EOD Guy]

My timeline:

Mailed 6-1, application received 6-3, check cashed 6-13, permit issued 8-19, permit received 8-26.

[Big Jake]

Does anybody know validity range of CCW class certificate for Utah? Taking my renewal Class for Nevada this week which also gives me Florida and Utah sign off but my Utah expires Dec of 2010. I understand its 12 months in Nevada.

Check reciprocity map at www.handgunlaw.us

[12GAUGE]

YHHAAA I just got a letter in the mail today with my fingerprint card returned , apparently I for got to sign it.:eek: Were do I go to get a new on done?

[dantodd]

YHHAAA I just got a letter in the mail today with my fingerprint card returned , apparently I for got to sign it.:eek: Were do I go to get a new on done?

You can't sign the one they returned to you?

[12GAUGE]

No they sent a new one to fill out and put a cross across my old one.

[dantodd]

Call your local PD, they will probably do it. Also, some notaries will roll your prints for you.

[wildhawker]

Yep, also might call UPS stores, some do livescan also.

[artherd]

Either FL or UT required the fingerprint card to be processed by an LEA. Not a UPS store. Check that.

[Jeremy K.]

The time frame for my Renewal was as follows:

Mailed: 8/12
Renewal App. Received: 8/17
Check Cleared: 8/25
Envelope Post marked for return: 8/27
New Permit Received: 8/31

!!!

[Big Jake]

The Utah ccw does not have to be done by law enforcement agency. The Florida ccw does! Anyone can do it as long as it is notorized.

[jello2594]

I sent in my app (plus Florida) 6/17

Received Utah 9/4, received Florida "Notice of error or omission" 9/5. They say I didn't include documentation that shows my proficiency with firearms, but I did include a certificate from my instructor, so I guess I'll call them to ask if they lost it, or maybe don't accept that it's enough...