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HooYah
11-22-2008, 3:12 AM
Can you open carry an unloaded firearm in a holster while driving or riding in a vehicle? Under the law, is it considered the same as open carrying while walking around town?

ENTHUSIAST
11-22-2008, 3:47 AM
As long as you are not knowingly within a 1000' from a K-12 school zone I believe... someone correct me if I am wrong.

diginit
11-22-2008, 5:38 AM
No! Handguns must be in a locked case while transporting. Unloaded.
You can carry a rifle though.

CalCop
11-22-2008, 6:31 AM
No! Handguns must be in a locked case while transporting. Unloaded.
You can carry a rifle though.

Wrong...the law says if you carry concealed within a vehicle, it must be in a locked container. However, there is no such restriction on open carry within a vehicle. Here is the law:
12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

An unloaded gun out in the open on the vehicle seat is NOT concealed...it is the same as open carry on the hip, which is legal except in certain restricted areas.

The CA jury instructions for carrying concealed within a vehicle:
The defendant is charged [in Count ______] with unlawfully carrying a concealed firearm within a vehicle.
To prove that the defendant is guilty of this crime, the People must prove that:
1. The defendant carried within a vehicle a firearm capable of being concealed on the person;
2. The defendant knew the firearm was in the vehicle;
3. The firearm was substantially concealed within the vehicle;
AND
4. The vehicle was under the defendant's control or direction.

Just make sure that the gun is not concealed on your person. If it was open carried on a belt holster outside of the car, don't get into the car and have your "wrap-around" racing seats conceal the weapon on your hip. Make sure it is in plain view.

nicki
11-22-2008, 11:28 AM
This is a practice I am not going to even consider participating in regardless of answers until we get a win with Nordyke first.

My question, what are restictions on Ammo? Does the ammo have to be "locked" so it is not accessible or can you have in laying in your passenger seat for semi quick access:rolleyes:

My gut tells me that even if the law is on our side, we will get alot of police harassment.

Nicki

.

Librarian
11-22-2008, 11:36 AM
Nicely done, CalCop. Where do you get the jury instructions?

CSACANNONEER
11-22-2008, 11:38 AM
Nicki,

I believe that you live in or around SF. If I'm correct about that, I would caution against any type of UOC until things change up there. It's not worth the legal headaches.

As far as ammo goes, I know of no law restricting how ammo is transported. There are some good common sense ways to carry ammo that can keep you from being hassled by an ignorant LEO but, I've been know to carry ammo in every compartment, door pocket, and open space of my vehicles. I've got to be careful opening my doors or ammo falls out. I'm not kidding about that!

CalCop
11-22-2008, 7:00 PM
Nicely done, CalCop. Where do you get the jury instructions?Go to this website:http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/jury/criminaljuryinstructions/

Click on link Complete Text of the 2008 Criminal Jury Instructions (http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/jury/criminaljuryinstructions/calcrim_juryins.pdf) Go to page 1748 of 2439.

edwardm
11-22-2008, 7:03 PM
Heller and Nordyke have nothing to do with UOC in a vehicle. All that is pertinent is currently found in a handful of California cases and PC12020 ff. Once the facts are established it becomes as pure a legal argument as you can get, i.e. see PC 12027 for exceptions.

This is a practice I am not going to even consider participating in regardless of answers until we get a win with Nordyke first.

My question, what are restictions on Ammo? Does the ammo have to be "locked" so it is not accessible or can you have in laying in your passenger seat for semi quick access:rolleyes:

My gut tells me that even if the law is on our side, we will get alot of police harassment.

Nicki

.

VegasND
11-22-2008, 7:12 PM
How things have changed. Back in the '70s I often just tossed my unloaded pistol, in its holster, up on my dash and tossed my bag with the mags in it in the bed of my pickup. Never had a cop even mention it the couple of times I was pulled over like that. I just assumed they saw the empty mag well and went on about business. After joining and reading here, I wouldn't even consider trying that today.

Mike Stollenwerk
11-23-2008, 10:31 AM
This is a practice I am not going to even consider participating in regardless of answers until we get a win with Nordyke first.

My question, what are restictions on Ammo? Does the ammo have to be "locked" so it is not accessible or can you have in laying in your passenger seat for semi quick access:rolleyes:

My gut tells me that even if the law is on our side, we will get alot of police harassment.

Nicki

.

Even if Nordyke holds that the Second Amendment provides an individual right to bear arms applicable to state power this holding is not binding on any state court, not even California state courts, hence Nordyke is not relevant to this discussion.

Every gun owner in California should become familiar with People v. Knight, avalaible at http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/californiastatecases/c045858.pdf, establishing that not only can you lawfully open carry handguns in vehicles in California, but you can openly carry LOADED handguns in vehciles in unincorporated areas (except through areas explicitly made off limits to shooting by Counties).

Further, if a police officer commences a search of you and your vehicle to determine if your handgun is loaded, and you are not in an area where such conduct is unlawful, then fruits of this search, even drugs, will be suppressed as a Fourth amendment violation. And Nordyke or not ,you could subsequently sue the police for damages for such Fourth Amendment violations, and probably prevail as the police defense of "qualified immunity" is not avaliable where a right is "clearly established" by state law sources such as People v. Knight and the California Governor's recent veto of legislation to ban loaded car carry. See Saucier v. Katz, summary at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saucier_v._Katz, re the doctrine of qualified immunity.

Librarian
11-23-2008, 12:24 PM
Even if Nordyke holds that the Second Amendment provides an individual right to bear arms applicable to state power this holding is not binding on any state court, not even California state courts,

I'd like to see a larger explication of this assertion, please.

tombinghamthegreat
11-23-2008, 5:19 PM
No! Handguns must be in a locked case while transporting. Unloaded.
You can carry a rifle though.

FUD...suprised the ammo+gun BS did not come up....

Liberty1
11-23-2008, 5:39 PM
Every gun owner in California should become familiar with People v. Knight, avalaible at http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/californiastatecases/c045858.pdf, establishing that not only can you lawfully open carry handguns in vehicles in California, but you can openly carry LOADED handguns in vehciles in unincorporated areas (except through areas explicitly made off limits to shooting by Counties).

Welcome Mike S!

You'll find some disagreement on Nordyke''s implications here with that statement. Stick around and engage.:)

I would word the above a little differently as follows: except through places explicitly made off limits to discharge of a firearm by any law.

I take that from Penal Code 12031 (f) - As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.



For those who don't know Mike, he is one of the powerhouses behind opencarry.org (http://opencarry.org/) and the VCDL (http:/www.vcdl.org/).

Meplat
11-24-2008, 3:43 PM
If it shows it's probable cause.:eek:


Nicki,

I believe that you live in or around SF. If I'm correct about that, I would caution against any type of UOC until things change up there. It's not worth the legal headaches.

As far as ammo goes, I know of no law restricting how ammo is transported. There are some good common sense ways to carry ammo that can keep you from being hassled by an ignorant LEO but, I've been know to carry ammo in every compartment, door pocket, and open space of my vehicles. I've got to be careful opening my doors or ammo falls out. I'm not kidding about that!

Meplat
11-24-2008, 3:49 PM
Am I correct in the opinion I just put forward that visible ammo or empty cases are probable cause for a search during a traffic stop.

And, if as I have been told, ammo is cause wouldn't an exposed unloaded hand gun also be.

All you LEOs feel free to jump in. :confused:




Go to this website:http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/jury/criminaljuryinstructions/

Click on link Complete Text of the 2008 Criminal Jury Instructions (http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/jury/criminaljuryinstructions/calcrim_juryins.pdf) Go to page 1748 of 2439.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-24-2008, 9:09 PM
Even if Nordyke holds that the Second Amendment provides an individual right to bear arms applicable to state power this holding is not binding on any state court, not even California state courts, hence Nordyke is not relevant to this discussion.

Every gun owner in California should become familiar with People v. Knight, avalaible at http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/californiastatecases/c045858.pdf, establishing that not only can you lawfully open carry handguns in vehicles in California, but you can openly carry LOADED handguns in vehciles in unincorporated areas (except through areas explicitly made off limits to shooting by Counties).

Further, if a police officer commences a search of you and your vehicle to determine if your handgun is loaded, and you are not in an area where such conduct is unlawful, then fruits of this search, even drugs, will be suppressed as a Fourth amendment violation. And Nordyke or not ,you could subsequently sue the police for damages for such Fourth Amendment violations, and probably prevail as the police defense of "qualified immunity" is not avaliable where a right is "clearly established" by state law sources such as People v. Knight and the California Governor's recent veto of legislation to ban loaded car carry. See Saucier v. Katz, summary at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saucier_v._Katz, re the doctrine of qualified immunity.

Welcome to Calguns. I fully support and thank you for your efforts in the open carry movement. I do, however, disagree with you in your interpretation that Knight allows loaded open carry in a motor vehicle, in UNincorporated areas of the state.

People v. Knight isn't nearly as persuasive in regards to loaded open carry in a motor vehicle as some believe. It really had more to do with poor prosecution than anything else.

“Absolutely no evidence was presented at the suppression hearing that the place or street where defendant possessed the loaded firearm was in an incorporated city or a prohibited area of an unincorporated territory as required to violate section 12031, subdivision (a)(1). Nor was there any evidence that the officers were under a reasonable mistake of fact that the place or street was in an incorporated city or a prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.”

The prosecution didn't even present evidence, nor an argument, that the area where Knight was found, was an area that prohibited discharge of a weapon. Had the prosecution argued that it is illegal to shoot from a State or County road, regardless if its in an incorporated or unincorporated area, they would have won.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-24-2008, 9:12 PM
Am I correct in the opinion I just put forward that visible ammo or empty cases are probable cause for a search during a traffic stop.

And, if as I have been told, ammo is cause wouldn't an exposed unloaded hand gun also be.

All you LEOs feel free to jump in. :confused:

I'm not aware of any caselaw specifically on point, but the law allows LEO's to determine whether or not a gun is loaded...not search your vehcle. I don't see how having ammunition, in and of itself, changes that.

CalCop
11-24-2008, 10:08 PM
Am I correct in the opinion I just put forward that visible ammo or empty cases are probable cause for a search during a traffic stop.

And, if as I have been told, ammo is cause wouldn't an exposed unloaded hand gun also be.You knew you would get this kind of answer: Depends on the cop and the surrounding circumstances.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-24-2008, 10:13 PM
You knew you would get this kind of answer: Depends on the cop and the surrounding circumstances.

How does the "cop" play a role? Either there is PC to search or there isn't. For the sake of the argument, lets say a person was pulled over for a standard VC violation such as speeding. Under what circumstances would having live or spent ammunition give the LEO PC to search the vehicle?

NiteQwill
11-24-2008, 10:17 PM
How does the "cop" play a role? Either there is PC to search or there isn't. For the sake of the argument, lets say a person was pulled over for a standard VC violation such as speeding. Under what circumstances would having live or spent ammunition give the LEO PC to search the vehicle?

To clarify, I think CalCop meant a veteran cop vs. rookie cop. I'm sure a rookie cop with get his panties all bunched up if he saw ammo all over your front seat coming from an area that had a possible shooting.

Illegal search? Maybe, but for the most part, yes, I agree with you.

Doheny
11-24-2008, 10:27 PM
How does the "cop" play a role? Either there is PC to search or there isn't. For the sake of the argument, lets say a person was pulled over for a standard VC violation such as speeding. Under what circumstances would having live or spent ammunition give the LEO PC to search the vehicle?

By using the assumption, where there's ammo, there's guns. Below is a link about protective car searches by LE. Note the paragraph below; it would be reasonable for a LEO to believe that there was a gun in the car if he saw ammo. The article is written by the Alameda County DA's office and is recent.

Officers may, of course, conduct the search if they reasonably believe there is a conventional weapon, such as a gun or knife, in the vehicle. Furthermore, they may search even if the detainee or other occupant possessed the weapon lawfully.http://le.alcoda.org/publications/files/PROTECTIVECARSEARCHES.pdf


.

CalCop
11-24-2008, 10:31 PM
For the sake of the argument, lets say a person was pulled over for a standard VC violation such as speeding. Under what circumstances would having live or spent ammunition give the LEO PC to search the vehicle?Criminal shooting just took place and you are speeding away from the scene...like I said, depends on the circumstances.

If you get searched and you think it is unwarranted...the courts will use the "reasonableness" standard to judge the officer's actions. While we're quoting from Alameda County, here is the explanation of "reasonableness:"
http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/reasonableness.pdf

FreedomIsNotFree
11-24-2008, 10:52 PM
By using the assumption, where there's ammo, there's guns. Below is a link about protective car searches by LE. Note the paragraph below; it would be reasonable for a LEO to believe that there was a gun in the car if he saw ammo. The article is written by the Alameda County DA's office and is recent.

http://le.alcoda.org/publications/files/PROTECTIVECARSEARCHES.pdf


.

Thanks for the link. Definitely an interesting read, but I believe your interpretation of the memo/"Point of View" is faulty. You make the determination that ammunition, in and of itself, either spent or live, is a "weapon". The opinion piece written that you linked speaks to finding weapons, either legal or otherwise, as giving PC to "frisk" the passenger area of a vehicle, not the trunk...essentially a Terry search of the passenger area. Is a bullet a weapon without a means to ignite the primer? I honestly don't know, but surely spent casings are no more a weapon than a coin.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-24-2008, 10:56 PM
To clarify, I think CalCop meant a veteran cop vs. rookie cop. I'm sure a rookie cop with get his panties all bunched up if he saw ammo all over your front seat coming from an area that had a possible shooting.

Illegal search? Maybe, but for the most part, yes, I agree with you.

If there were an actual shooting in the area, I would agree, but "possible shooting"? Either there was or there wasn't right?

That's why I set the scenario as a basic VC violation such as speeding for the question. No shootings in the area or other reason to be concerned.

Doheny
11-24-2008, 10:57 PM
Thanks for the link. Definitely an interesting read, but I believe your interpretation of the memo/"Point of View" is faulty.

Very possible. However, like CalCop said, it would probably depend on the cop and the circumstances.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-24-2008, 10:57 PM
Criminal shooting just took place and you are speeding away from the scene...like I said, depends on the circumstances.

If you get searched and you think it is unwarranted...the courts will use the "reasonableness" standard to judge the officer's actions. While we're quoting from Alameda County, here is the explanation of "reasonableness:"
http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/reasonableness.pdf

Again, the scenario is a basic VC violation. Nothing more, nothing less.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-24-2008, 11:01 PM
Very possible. However, like CalCop said, it would probably depend on the cop and the circumstances.

Take the circumstances out of the equation. Is ammo, either spent or live, grounds for a Terry search of the passenger area of a motor vehicle?

Take note that the trunk is still off limits even if PC is established.

nick
11-24-2008, 11:09 PM
By using the assumption, where there's ammo, there's guns. Below is a link about protective car searches by LE. Note the paragraph below; it would be reasonable for a LEO to believe that there was a gun in the car if he saw ammo. The article is written by the Alameda County DA's office and is recent.

http://le.alcoda.org/publications/files/PROTECTIVECARSEARCHES.pdf


.

So, lawfully possessing a gun is a good enough probable cause for a search?

FreedomIsNotFree
11-24-2008, 11:14 PM
So, lawfully possessing a gun is a good enough probable cause for a search?

The opinion of the Alameda County DA is yes, it is good enough PC to search your car. Granted, its a "Terry" type search of the passenger area of your vehicle. They can look under the seats and in the glove box/console, but can't tear apart/dismantle portions of your vehicle nor can they look in the trunk.

N6ATF
11-24-2008, 11:34 PM
If there were an actual shooting in the area, I would agree, but "possible shooting"? Either there was or there wasn't right?

The radio code is 11-6 (illegal discharge of firearms). This is what dispatchers in San Diego County tend to say when there's calls about loud popping noises. This could mean shooting, or fireworks. So, "possible shooting".

CalCop
11-24-2008, 11:39 PM
Take the circumstances out of the equation. Is ammo, either spent or live, grounds for a Terry search of the passenger area of a motor vehicle?

The 7th circuit says yes: "Police discovering ammunition on a suspect at a Terry stop have established probable cause to expand the investigation, said the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals." http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4441/is_/ai_n19059475

While the example here includes other suspected criminal activity...the ammo gives officers the reasonable suspicion that weapons may be in the car, and therefore can do an officer safety search. If no illegal activity is discovered...you will be free to go...and I'm sure most Calgunners will be...but, the detention and search would be justified while the officer diligently completes such. As I have said before in other forums here...if you want a longer stop then have the legal stuff visible...if you don't want the hassle, keep it outta sight.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-24-2008, 11:41 PM
The radio code is 11-6 (illegal discharge of firearms). This is what dispatchers in San Diego County tend to say when there's calls about loud popping noises. This could mean shooting, or fireworks. So, "possible shooting".


The point is NOT to debate what radio call may or may not go out for firecrackers or possible firecrackers...

Again, is ammunition, either spent or live, IN AND OF ITSELF, WITH NO OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES TO CONSIDER, PC for a search of the passenger area of a vehicle?

FreedomIsNotFree
11-24-2008, 11:45 PM
The 7th circuit says yes: "Police discovering ammunition on a suspect at a Terry stop have established probable cause to expand the investigation, said the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals." http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4441/is_/ai_n19059475

While the example here includes other suspected criminal activity...the ammo gives officers the reasonable suspicion that weapons may be in the car, and therefore can do an officer safety search. If no illegal activity is discovered...you will be free to go...and I'm sure most Calgunners will be...but, the detention and search would be justified while the officer diligently completes such. As I have said before in other forums here...if you want a longer stop then have the legal stuff visible...if you don't want the hassle, keep it outta sight.

You are still missing it. In the case you cited, Shoals was a Felon and there was a 911 call where he matched the description. Not close to the scenarion I described.

CalCop
11-25-2008, 12:46 AM
You are still missing it. In the case you cited, Shoals was a Felon and there was a 911 call where he matched the description. Not close to the scenarion I described.I don't think I'm "missing it." Read my last post again where I said, "While the example here includes other suspected criminal activity..." So, I didn't miss it...I spoke of the ammo being reasonable suspicion DESPITE the fact that other criminal activity was suspected. I believe the ammo will suffice to do a protective search of the car...not for suspicion that a crime has been committed...but, rather, merely to ensure officer safety. And ammo being loose on the seat is enough to do a search for accessible handguns. Again...no illegal conduct...you get to go home...but the cop still gets to search to ensure his safety during the encounter.

From the bulletin posted here:
"Officers may, of course, conduct the search if they reasonably believe there is a conventional weapon, such as a gun or knife, in the vehicle." (loose ammo on the seat would give me reasonable belief that I need to do an officer safety search)

"Furthermore, they may search even if the detainee or other occupant possessed the weapon lawfully."

"Inferring the presence of a weapon:
Even if officers do not actually see a weapon in the vehicle, they may reasonably believe that one is present based on circumstantial evidence."
(ammunition is circumstantial evidence that a weapon is likely to be present, therefore, he can do a protective search)

Remember, this is not an investigation into criminal activity, it is a "frisk" of the person and the vehicle to ensure officer safety. The officer doesn't have to believe you are guilty of a crime to search...only has to reasonably believe a frisk is necessary for his safety...a reasonable person would consider loose ammo on the seat a suggestion of possible firearm accessibility.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-25-2008, 12:59 AM
You cited a case where there was a Felon that matched the description from a 911 call. Hardly the simple VC enounter I described.

Upon judicial review, your "reasonable belief" stemming from loose ammo may or may not stand. What's clear though is you keep applying the test set forward by the Alameda County DA where a "weapon" is found...not spent ammunition.

CalCop
11-25-2008, 1:21 AM
PROTECTIVE CAR SEARCHES
When a person is detained in or near his vehicle, a gun or other weapon in the vehicle can be just as dangerous to officers as a weapon in the detainee’s waistband. But when the U.S. Supreme Court authorized pat searches of armed or dangerous suspects in 1968, it didn’t say anything about searching their cars. Some 15 years later when the issue finally reached the Court, it ruled that protective vehicle searches—also known as “vehicle pat downs”—are permissible if, (1) an occupant of the vehicle was lawfully detained (traffic stop); and (2) officers reasonably believed a weapon was presently inside the passenger compartment (saw ammunition, thought possibly gun).

PROVING A WEAPON IS IN THE VEHICLE: An officer’s belief that a weapon is inside the passenger compartment is usually based on direct evidence; e.g., officer saw a weapon or received a tip from a reliable source that the driver is currently armed. In some cases, the existence of the threat will be based on circumstantial evidence.

PROBABLE CAUSE TO SEARCH FOR GUNS:
-Ammunition and gun cleaning kit

(Italics and underlines are mine.)

http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/carsearchessummer2003.pdf

Keep in mind...if you are an otherwise law abiding citizen, and there are no other circumstances besides a box of ammo on the seat...you won't get searched by me. But, loose ammo on the seat already gives me some bad impressions...and it will only take one more of any other kind of bad impression to feel that the protective search is necessary.

You have to consider what cops deal with these days...the news is full of cops getting gunned down during traffic stops. I'm not saying I will be an A-hole about it...I will be professional and get the frisk, if necessary, over as quickly and painlessly as possible. I'm not trying to say I think you are guilty of ANYTHING...I'm just making sure I go home to my family at night. While not illegal in any way, loose rounds on the seat are a bad idea. I don't want to search you, and you don't want to get searched...just keep em neatly in the box to save everyone some trouble. Or, do whatever you think you are legally entitled to, but be prepared that it may prolong the stop a bit, that's all. And IF the circumstances warrant a protective search, I won't blame you for causing it...I'll apologize for the inconvenience and send you on your way. But you can see how to avoid it, if you choose to.

CA_Libertarian
11-25-2008, 7:00 AM
How does the "cop" play a role? Either there is PC to search or there isn't. For the sake of the argument, lets say a person was pulled over for a standard VC violation such as speeding. Under what circumstances would having live or spent ammunition give the LEO PC to search the vehicle?

In a perfect world, all cops would respect the rights of their fellow man and would honor their oath to uphold and defend those rights. In the real world, some cops do what they want and then lie when their victim files a complaint. Sometimes you get a bunch of 'bad apples' and they systematically cover up their crimes. This is when audio recording is handy.

nick
11-25-2008, 9:50 AM
The opinion of the Alameda County DA is yes, it is good enough PC to search your car. Granted, its a "Terry" type search of the passenger area of your vehicle. They can look under the seats and in the glove box/console, but can't tear apart/dismantle portions of your vehicle nor can they look in the trunk.


I'm so grateful that they can't tear apart or dismantle portions of my vehicle :) In this particular case, that is.

Looking at the bright side, the way things are going, if China conquers us, there shouldn't be that much of a cultural shock.

FreedomIsNotFree
11-25-2008, 10:39 AM
I'm so grateful that they can't tear apart or dismantle portions of my vehicle :) In this particular case, that is.

Looking at the bright side, the way things are going, if China conquers us, there shouldn't be that much of a cultural shock.

Yup. Just make sure you keep the dead bodies in your trunk...:)

jazman
11-25-2008, 1:44 PM
Keep in mind...if you are an otherwise law abiding citizen, and there are no other circumstances besides a box of ammo on the seat...you won't get searched by me. But, loose ammo on the seat already gives me some bad impressions...and it will only take one more of any other kind of bad impression to feel that the protective search is necessary.

You have to consider what cops deal with these days...the news is full of cops getting gunned down during traffic stops. I'm not saying I will be an A-hole about it...I will be professional and get the frisk, if necessary, over as quickly and painlessly as possible. I'm not trying to say I think you are guilty of ANYTHING...I'm just making sure I go home to my family at night. While not illegal in any way, loose rounds on the seat are a bad idea. I don't want to search you, and you don't want to get searched...just keep em neatly in the box to save everyone some trouble. Or, do whatever you think you are legally entitled to, but be prepared that it may prolong the stop a bit, that's all. And IF the circumstances warrant a protective search, I won't blame you for causing it...I'll apologize for the inconvenience and send you on your way. But you can see how to avoid it, if you choose to.

This is well written with good information. Thanks for the post.

XDshooter
12-04-2008, 11:07 PM
People v. Knight isn't nearly as persuasive in regards to loaded open carry in a motor vehicle as some believe. It really had more to do with poor prosecution than anything else.

The prosecution didn't even present evidence, nor an argument, that the area where Knight was found, was an area that prohibited discharge of a weapon. Had the prosecution argued that it is illegal to shoot from a State or County road, regardless if its in an incorporated or unincorporated area, they would have won.


Ya, but they would have been shooting from a vehicle, not the road. :)

Maybe that matters.

F&G 3004 only limits rifles and shotguns from being discharged from a vehicle.

And 12034 mainly deals with malicious discharge of a firearm.

diginit
12-13-2008, 9:42 PM
Keep in mind that if an officer cannot see the weapon immediately, It is considered partial concielment. You go to jail either way. The law also requires that "Handguns must be in a locked case while transporting in a vehicle"

Librarian
12-13-2008, 10:22 PM
Keep in mind that if an officer cannot see the weapon immediately, It is considered partial concielment. You go to jail either way. The law also requires that "Handguns must be in a locked case while transporting in a vehicle"

No to both.

Openly carried in a holster on the belt in a car, but it just happens to be concealed from the officer on the driver's side of the car is not 'concealed'. Might be a surprise for the officer... Concealed under a shirt or a jacket would be different.

And the locked case is required only if one wants to conceal the weapon - 12026.1/.2 are exceptions to committing the crime of carrying a concealed weapon in 12025, and do not apply to carrying unconcealed.

bansherider
12-13-2008, 11:27 PM
I'm not a leo but if I was patroling at 2:30 in the morning and came upon that I would have probably have done the same as those leo's did. Here's is how I carry my guns to and from places crew cab truck: ammo and long rifles UNLOADED TRIGGERS LOCKED in cases in bed of truck and handguns UNLOADED in a LOCKED CASE IN PLAIN VIEW OF EVERYONE. Raining out side long rifles UNLOADED TRIGGERS LOCKED under back seat in cases and ammo to. I don't really want a leo pulling his gun on me and my family when traveling to and from our gun range thats when mistakes can happen and fingers can slip (ACCIDENTS). So come one people get a little smarter than that. 2:30 in the morning spent ammo on the floor loaded shotgun in vehicle huuuuummmm. Drive by ,robbery ? They are trying to take our guns away and stupid choices like that are only helping them. Unloaded guns in vehicle unless you have a ccw permit pack your trash in campsites pack it back out. Be a responsible GUN OWNER

bansherider
12-13-2008, 11:39 PM
When pulled over might want to mention to leo that you have a gun in vehicle unloaded in locked case if they see it before you tell them you might just get that new pairs of jeans and that new shirt a little dirty and might also need some dental work and stitches . Think about what you do before you do it might take some time but its better than sitting in jail or in front of a judge explaining your lack of thinking. GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT

DDT
12-13-2008, 11:40 PM
Hi Bansherider,

I am new here too. I think as you become a bit more accustomed the this site and the people who post here you will come to realize that 95% do just as you suggest but also do a lot of thinking about the intricacies of the insane California gun laws and how they interact and what EXACTLY is and isn't legal. The other 5% actually push the boundaries (usually with a lot of research before hand) and are willing, and funded, to become test cases.

There is another, thankfully smaller, group who follow the lead of the 5% but still get caught up in LEO/DA incompetence and end up going to jail, and sometimes prosecuted despite doing everything properly. In these cases the 95% and their interest are often turned into $$$ to help these law abiding citizens in their legal defense through CGF.

edit for clarification: "thankfully smaller" is in reference to "get caught up in..." not "follow the lead of."

DDT
12-13-2008, 11:42 PM
When pulled over might want to mention to leo that you have a gun in vehicle unloaded in locked case if they see it before you tell them you might just get that new pairs of jeans and that new shirt a little dirty and might also need some dental work and stitches.

I think that advice will be universally ignored around here. If pulled over by a LEO they have no reason to believe that the locked case in question is a weapon nor would the existence of a locked case, weapon or not, constitute probably cause to put you face down. You should never randomly tell a LEO, when pulled over, about a GUN in your car that is being legally transported. This is VERY bad and will much more likely see you in the dirt than the presence of a locked case in your car.

CitaDeL
12-14-2008, 8:30 AM
Be a responsible GUN OWNER

Just how does locking all your weapons and ammunition up during transportation make you a more responsible gun owner? How does not locking up all your guns and ammunition make you an irresponsible gun owner?

Guns are inanimate objects- they are not like unruly children or excited pets roaming about freely int he cabin of your vehicle, poised to escape and to create mayhem on their own. The regulation you are encouraging everyone to obey is only applicable to two circumstances- 1) for exemption of violation of 12025 (concealed weapons) and 2) 626.9 (school zone). So you are using FUD to make people believe some crime has been commited when I have an unloaded handgun holstered on my hip or an unloaded rifle in the seat.


When pulled over might want to mention to leo that you have a gun in vehicle unloaded in locked case...

By merely mentioning 'gun' you unnecessarily alarm law enforcement and invite their unwanted search through your private property. Why would you want that? Our private property is none of their business. It sounds to me like you are so afraid of the authorities that you would rather roll over and wet yourself like a submissive puppy than to look the police in the eye, knowing your rights and asserting them. I recommend you stick around and do some more research- I think you would be surprised that even here in California we can assert ourselves in legal ways without being abused by the people in law enforcement.

CalCop
12-14-2008, 9:25 AM
Keep in mind that if an officer cannot see the weapon immediately, It is considered partial concielment."Partially concealed" is mentioned nowhere in the law.

"Substantially concealed" is illegal...see the CA 2008 jury instructions:
The defendant is charged [in Count ______] with unlawfully carrying a concealed firearm within a vehicle.
To prove that the defendant is guilty of this crime, the People must prove that:
1. The defendant carried within a vehicle a firearm capable of being concealed on the person;
2. The defendant knew the firearm was in the vehicle;
3. The firearm was substantially concealed within the vehicle;
AND
4. The vehicle was under the defendant's control or direction.

Decoligny
12-14-2008, 11:25 AM
Ya, but they would have been shooting from a vehicle, not the road. :)

Maybe that matters.

F&G 3004 only limits rifles and shotguns from being discharged from a vehicle.

And 12034 mainly deals with malicious discharge of a firearm.

Shooting from a vehicle that is on the road is shooting from the road. If it were not, they you cound stand on an old newspaper that was on the road, and claim that you were shooting from on the newspaper and not on the road.

PC374c – Shooting a firearm from or upon a public road or highway is a misdemeanor.

This PC makes a public road or highway a place where firearms discharge is prohibited by law, thus a public road or highway is a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

Ground Loop
12-14-2008, 12:30 PM
I read this thread with interest because it's more than academic to me. My only car is a small two-seat convertible. (It's my bad-weather car, otherwise I'm on two wheels.)

I frequently drive to the range, top down, with a shotgun on the passenger seat (cased, in plain view). It's a strange sight, but legal. I fully expect a traffic stop would be a curious experience for both of us, but I'm certain it's legal.

Sometimes I have my Ruger 10/22, in a bright red and black soft case that says "RUGER" riding in the seat.

Neither bag is locked, since they're just cordura anyway.

Ammo sits in the too-small trunk with any unloaded handgus.

So far, no trouble. I even drove through a active "Prop 8 Protest" intersection, horns honking, with police presence, before I thought to think about the long skinny camo bag on the passenger seat. Wasn't on purpose, but it could be misinterpreted.

bansherider
12-14-2008, 6:10 PM
I didn't mean just blurt it out but if they ask me if I have a weapon I will tell them. When an leo pulled upon that car he had reasonable susp then proto call is to frisk said subject and cuff them put them in back of squad car till they find out what was going on

GuyW
12-15-2008, 11:48 AM
....a shotgun on the passenger seat (cased, in plain view).

Sometimes I have my Ruger 10/22, in a bright red and black soft case that says "RUGER" riding in the seat.

Neither bag is locked, since they're just cordura anyway.


...don't drive by any schools...

.

Liberty1
12-15-2008, 5:18 PM
...don't drive by any schools...

.

at least not "knowingly".

Meplat
12-15-2008, 8:54 PM
This is well written with good information. Thanks for the post.

Can we get this guy on some kind of lecture circuit to teach LEOs how to make the public love them?;)

BTW, most of my encounters with LEOs (and with my driving record I've had a bunch) have been a lot more like "CALCOP" than officer *******.

Meplat
12-15-2008, 9:06 PM
Around here we just throw them on the dashboard, that way not even Barney Fife can miss it. The LEOs actually seem to feel if you are not trying to hide anything you are probably not dangerous.:chris:

diginit
12-21-2008, 3:48 PM
now I get it. And here it is:

4. POSSESSION AND TRANSPORTATION OF CONCEALED WEAPONS
Carrying a Concealed Handgun Without a License on One's Person or Concealed in a
Vehicle
Pursuant to Penal Code section 12025, a person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm
when he or she does any of the following:
• Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control, any pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
• Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person.
• Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he or she is an occupant
any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
NOTE: A firearm carried openly in a belt holster is not considered "concealed" as it
applies to the above prohibition. (Penal Code § 12025(f).)

I'd still be aware of partial concielment if I were you.
This has been a very informative thread!

Fantasma
12-21-2008, 5:40 PM
The opinion of the Alameda County DA is yes, it is good enough PC to search your car. Granted, its a "Terry" type search of the passenger area of your vehicle. They can look under the seats and in the glove box/console, but can't tear apart/dismantle portions of your vehicle nor can they look in the trunk.

What if the Glove Box is locked?

Is a terry search when an officer can search your readily available area. Like under the seats and glove box if its open. What if the glove box is locked, can they search that area when they terry search your vehicle.

Would they ask for the key, or simply not open it because it is locked.

1919_4_ME
12-21-2008, 5:44 PM
Well if you guys ever travel into AZ you can have a fully loaded AK sitting on your front passenger seat and its perfectly legal even if your a Californian doesnt matter as long as its in plain view.:)

NiteQwill
12-21-2008, 5:52 PM
Well if you guys ever travel into AZ you can have a fully loaded AK sitting on your front passenger seat and its perfectly legal even if your a Californian doesnt matter as long as its in plain view.:)

Same as NV, aren't free states grand? ;)

diginit
12-21-2008, 7:22 PM
Why can't you send some of your legislators to Ca?

diginit
12-21-2008, 7:29 PM
So, After all this discussion, What if I put my unloaded 45 on the seat next to me.
It is not concieled. I thought "all weapons CAPABLE of BEING concieled must be in a locked case during transportation in a motor vehicle". Does holstering the weapon void this somehow?

Decoligny
12-21-2008, 7:46 PM
So, After all this discussion, What if I put my unloaded 45 on the seat next to me.
It is not concieled. I thought "all weapons CAPABLE of BEING concieled must be in a locked case during transportation in a motor vehicle". Does holstering the weapon void this somehow?

Assuming you avoid knowing going into a school zone, unloaded 45 on the seat, no problem, just don't slam on the brakes and have it end up under the seat, concealed, violating 12025.

There is no "must be in a locked container". The only mention of locked contained is "IF" it is in a locked container, it is exempt from 12025. PERIOD.

If it is not in a locked container, it had better not be concealed unless you have a license to do so.

PC12025 (f) – Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are NOT CONCEALED within the meaning of this section.

DDT
12-21-2008, 7:53 PM
Can you cite PC for "all weapons CAPABLE of BEING concieled must be in a locked case during transportation in a motor vehicle"

I was looking through 12025 and didn't find that.

edit: That's what I get for starting my reply and THEN looking up the PC

Kid Stanislaus
12-21-2008, 7:59 PM
Very possible. However, like CalCop said, it would probably depend on the cop and the circumstances.


I don't want ANYTHING depending on "the cop and the circumstances". When it comes to police authority gray areas are nothing but trouble. Either the cop knows his job (God bless him!) or he does not. If he does not then he has no business being thrust upon the public with all those visible signs of authority which we all know have been abused ad naseum.

Kid Stanislaus
12-21-2008, 8:33 PM
Sometimes I have my Ruger 10/22, in a bright red and black soft case that says "RUGER" riding in the seat.Neither bag is locked, since they're just cordura anyway.


Somebody with more knowledge than I please explain the legality of this. The gun is concealed but not in a locked container.

jazman
12-21-2008, 8:49 PM
Somebody with more knowledge than I please explain the legality of this. The gun is concealed but not in a locked container.

It's a long gun.

FreedomIsNotFree
12-21-2008, 8:57 PM
What if the Glove Box is locked?

Is a terry search when an officer can search your readily available area. Like under the seats and glove box if its open. What if the glove box is locked, can they search that area when they terry search your vehicle.

Would they ask for the key, or simply not open it because it is locked.

I believe any locked box or container, including a glove box or center console, would be off limits during a "Terry" type search. This does not mean the officer won't ask or imply that he "needs" to look in there, but I don't believe he has PC.

Meplat
12-21-2008, 9:50 PM
A 10-22 is not considered concealable.:TFH:

diginit
12-22-2008, 5:40 AM
Can you cite PC for "all weapons CAPABLE of BEING concieled must be in a locked case during transportation in a motor vehicle"

I was looking through 12025 and didn't find that.

edit: That's what I get for starting my reply and THEN looking up the PC

12026.1. (a) (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=12001-13000&file=12020-12040) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

BobB35
12-22-2008, 6:38 AM
If you really want to know, go check out Unloaded open carry California. They have this situation outlined very well. There has been some right info and some completely wrong info posted here so far.

Heck this is such a complicated issue - as well as what is loaded vs not loaded - that even the "experts" get this stuff wrong have have to be told by the courts they are wrong - which has happened numerous times so far. It has gotten to the point where the info is getting out to the LEOs.

If you're afraid of being arrested, don't leave home, or move out of CA, because the cops can you arrest you for anything at anytime. Getting it to stick is a different story.

Decoligny
12-22-2008, 7:39 AM
12026.1. (a) (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=12001-13000&file=12020-12040) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

AGAIN people are confusing an EXCEPTION CLAUSE with a requirement clause.

IF you decide to lock it up in a secure container, then the police can't legally charge you with a 12025 violation, and 12025 ONLY deals with ACTUAL CONCEALED firearms. This is all that 12026.1 says. It DOES NOT REQUIRE you to lock up any firearm.

DDT
12-22-2008, 8:16 AM
12026.1. (a) (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=12001-13000&file=12020-12040) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

Not seeing it. All I see there is that IF it is concealed in a car it must be locked in a compartment other than a glove or utility compatment

diginit
12-22-2008, 2:17 PM
Here's the entire quote from ther 2007 Ca PC

4. POSSESSION AND TRANSPORTATION OF CONCEALED WEAPONS
Carrying a Concealed Handgun Without a License on One's Person or Concealed in a Vehicle
Pursuant to Penal Code section 12025, a person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he
or she does any of the following:
• Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control, any pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
• Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person.
• Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he or she is an occupant
any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
NOTE: A firearm carried openly in a belt holster is not considered "concealed" as it
California Firearms Laws 2007 29
applies to the above prohibition. (Penal Code § 12025(f).)
Section 12025 does not apply to or affect any of the following:
• Any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is
temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited from owning or possessing firearms
pursuant to Penal Code sections 12021 or 12021.1 or section 8100 or 8101 of the Welfare and
Institutions Code, may carry, either openly or concealed, anywhere within his or her place of
business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by him or her any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person. A permit or license to purchase,
own, possess, keep, or carry is not required under these circumstances. (Penal Code § 12026.)
• The transportation or carrying of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person by any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years
who resides or is temporarily within this state, and is not within the excepted classes
prescribed by Penal Code Sections 12021 or 12021.1 or Welfare and Institutions Code sections
8100 or 8103, provided that the following applies:
- the firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container
in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment, and;
- when the firearm is carried by the person to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose, the
firearm must be contained in a locked container while being physically carried. (Penal Code §
12026.1.)
Penal Code Section 12025 does not apply to or affect the lawful transportation or possession of a
firearm under specific circumstances, including, but not limited to, the following:
• The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the firearm in order to comply
with Article 1 (commencing with section 2080) of Chapter 4 of Division 3 of the
Civil Code as it pertains to that firearm and if that firearm is being transported to a law
enforcement agency, the person gives prior notice to the law enforcement agency that he or
she is transporting the firearm to the law enforcement agency. (Penal Code § 12026.2(a)(17).)
• The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the firearm, and is transporting it to a law
enforcement agency for disposition according to law, if he or she gives prior notice to the law
enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to the law enforcement agency for
disposition according to law. Firearms must be transported unloaded and in a locked container
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations, as
necessary. (Penal Code §§ 12026.2(a)(17), (18) and (b).)
• The carrying of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person by a person who is authorized to carry that weapon in a concealed
manner pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with section 12050) of the Penal Code.
• Members of any club or organization organized for the purpose of practicing
shooting at targets upon established target ranges, whether public or private, while
the members are using concealable firearms upon the target ranges.
• Authorized peace officers, retired peace officers, and retired federal officers or agents,
as defined in Penal Code sections 830.1, 830.2, 830.5, 12027(a) and 12031(b).
• Licensed hunters or fishermen while engaged in hunting or fishing, or while going
to or returning from such hunting or fishing expeditions.
• The possession or transportation of unloaded pistols, revolvers, or other firearms
capable of being concealed upon the person as merchandise by a person who is
licensed in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms.
California Firearms Laws 2007 30


I understand that a handgun in a holster in not a concieled weapon, But partial concielment is a troublemaker too. If a LEO can't see it immediately, and it suprises him(or god forbid, her) who knows what might happen.

Ironchef
12-22-2008, 2:34 PM
Not seeing it. All I see there is that IF it is concealed in a car it must be locked in a compartment other than a glove or utility compatment

He's saying that 12026 are "exemptions" from 12025. That means, if things in 12026 are present (like being in a locked container if you chose to do so), then 12025 is not applicable. 12026 is not giving transportation requirements, it's giving exemptions from 12025.

rbgaynor
12-22-2008, 5:01 PM
He's saying that 12026 are "exemptions" from 12025. That means, if things in 12026 are present (like being in a locked container if you chose to do so), then 12025 is not applicable. 12026 is not giving transportation requirements, it's giving exemptions from 12025.

What I've always wondered about are the exemptions in 12026.2, specifically:

(3) The transportation of a firearm by a participant when going directly to, or coming directly from, a recognized safety or hunter safety class, or a recognized sporting event involving that firearm.


and

(9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.


It would seem that going to the range or a match would be valid exemptions from 12025. Would be handy in case I forgot to lock my range bag.

MudCamper
12-23-2008, 10:11 AM
What I've always wondered about are the exemptions in 12026.2, specifically:

and

It would seem that going to the range or a match would be valid exemptions from 12025. Would be handy in case I forgot to lock my range bag.

You need to keep reading:

12026.2 (b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

And everyone who doesn't already have a very clear understanding of all this needs to read this: http://www.californiaopencarry.org/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf

CalCop
12-23-2008, 7:59 PM
Pursuant to Penal Code section 12025, a person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
• Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control, any pistolThe key word you keep missing here is CONCEALED. Your are not guilty because you are carrying a handgun CAPABLE of being concealed. You are only guilty if the weapon is ACTUALLY CONCEALED and not locked up. See the jury instructions:
The defendant is charged [in Count ______] with unlawfully carrying a concealed firearm within a vehicle.
To prove that the defendant is guilty of this crime, the People must prove that:
1. The defendant carried within a vehicle a firearm capable of being concealed on the person;
2. The defendant knew the firearm was in the vehicle;
3. The firearm was substantially concealed within the vehicle;
AND
4. The vehicle was under the defendant's control or direction.