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bandogg
11-20-2008, 7:33 PM
I recently to a exposed weapons permit class. And my instructor said that the DOJ will take the EWP as an alternative to the HSC. Anyone have any knowledge of this?

On a side note the class was some what a joke. People passed the class that couldn't speak or read english:confused: One guy sitting next to me even said "My english not to good can I look at your" then started to look at my paper. This was during the final test:eek:.

The guy next to on the range during the shooting test. Looked like he was shooting a shotgun. But some how he passed.

I was thinking this would be a serious class. Pass or fail. But no everone passed.

Guess thats why people think off Security as a joke.:(

PolishMike
11-20-2008, 7:46 PM
What the hell is an exposed weapons permit?

USN CHIEF
11-20-2008, 7:49 PM
To the OP, where did you learn how to spell?

CavTrooper
11-20-2008, 7:55 PM
One guy sitting next to me even said "My english not to good can I look at your" then started to look at my paper.

So you fit right in? ;)

JDay
11-20-2008, 7:59 PM
http://www.alliednationwide.com/images/uniform1.jpg

CSDGuy
11-20-2008, 8:01 PM
I recently to a exposed weapons permit class. And my instructor said that the DOJ will take the EWP as an alternative to the HSC. Anyone have any knowledge of this?

On a side note the class was some what a joke. People passed the class that couldn't speak or read english:confused: One guy sitting next to me even said "My english not to good can I look at your" then started to look at my paper. This was during the final test:eek:.

The guy next to on the range during the shooting test. Looked like he was shooting a shotgun. But some how he passed.

I was thinking this would be a serious class. Pass or fail. But no everone passed.

Guess thats why people think off Security as a joke.:(
Are you referring to the BSIS gun permit class? I just looked at the exemptions to the HSC and I didn't see anything about the BSIS exposed weapon permit class as being an acceptable type of training.

These are the exemptions: taken from here (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/hsc2.php).
The following qualify for HSC exempt status:


Peace officer (active California)
Peace officer (active federal)
Peace officer (honorably retired California or federal)
Reserve peace officer (as defined in Penal Code Section 832.6)
Persons who have successfully completed P.O.S.T. 832 PC firearms training
Federally licensed firearm collector who has a DOJ-issued COE who is acquiring a federally-defined curio/relic
Person to whom a handgun is being returned, where he/she is the owner of the firearm
Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) Permit Holder
Military - active duty
Military - honorably retired
Military - active reserve
Certain particular and limited authority peace officers
Persons who hold a DOJ-issued special weapons permit
Persons taking possession of firearms pursuant to specific conditions related to operation of law acquisitions
Law enforcement service weapon passed to surviving family member

gotgunz
11-20-2008, 8:03 PM
The BSIS exposed carry permit for on duty security or armored car guards does not exempt you from the HSC...although a CCW does :D

sb_pete
11-20-2008, 8:05 PM
To the OP, where did you learn how to spell?

Not so much spelling as bad grammar and missing words. My guess is that his brain was working faster than his typing fingers. That said, the post does read like a badly streaming video. OP may want to clean that up in order to get more serious answers. Keep in mind that people are really just ribbing you for it.

I am guessing that an Exposed Weapons Permit is to allow Loaded Open Carry (LOC) of pistols, since CA OC laws do not allow it? Never heard of the permit though. Maybe you can elaborate more?

Also, you really want the 01FFL holders on this forum to chime in so maybe change the thread name to something like:

"Question for 01FFL's - Exposed Weapons Permit = HSC???"

HTH,
-Pete


***EDIT - Other people type faster than I do...

Riodog
11-20-2008, 8:11 PM
Bandogg, If we could figure out what the hell you're trying to ask maybe an answer would be forth coming. What the heck is "an exposed weapons class"?
If you're taking "security guard" training I now know why security guards make 4 bucks an hour.

We've had some posters here that were way below the 60% level but you take the cake.
Rio
BTW, the last a**hole I met with an 'exposed weapon' got hooked and booked.

Sgt Raven
11-20-2008, 9:05 PM
So you fit right in? ;)

QFT! :eek: :p :party:

bandogg
11-20-2008, 9:39 PM
exposed weapon permit is what a security officer needs in order to carry a firearm while on duty

Mark in Eureka
11-20-2008, 9:59 PM
It is a Firearms Qualification Card. Yes it exempts you from the safety course, yes it allows to carry a exposed loaded weapon in public while working in uniform. It will not allow open carry in public in plain clothes or when you are not working

CSDGuy
11-20-2008, 10:03 PM
exposed weapon permit is what a security officer needs in order to carry a firearm while on duty
That's what I thought it was for.
It is a Firearms Qualification Card. Yes it exempts you from the safety course, yes it allows to carry a exposed loaded weapon in public while working in uniform. It will not allow open carry in public in plain clothes or when you are not working
Show me where in the code or regs that a BSIS Firearms Permit is an exemption to the HSC. I looked. I couldn't find it. There are only a few exemption codes that a dealer can use for the HSC exemption. Which one does the BSIS firearms course fall under?

ETA: I actually did find an exemption under 12807 (a) (11).. but I do NOT see a corresponding exemption code. So how is it coded? Under X91 Particular and Limited Authority Peace Officers? ETA: Yep. That appears to be the code... however, if the certificate is expired, can you use that as an exemption?

Here's the code that I located:
12807. (a) The following persons, properly identified, are exempted
from the handgun safety certificate requirement in subdivision (b)
of Section 12801:
(11) Any person who is authorized to carry loaded firearms
pursuant to subdivision (c) or (d) of Section 12031.

12031
(d) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following who
have been issued a certificate pursuant to Section 12033. The
certificate shall not be required of any person who is a peace
officer, who has completed all training required by law for the
exercise of his or her power as a peace officer, and who is employed
while not on duty as a peace officer.

(5) Uniformed security guards, regularly employed and compensated
in that capacity by persons engaged in any lawful business, and
uniformed alarm agents employed by an alarm company operator, while
actually engaged in protecting and preserving the property of their
employers or on duty or en route to or from their residences or their
places of employment, and security guards and alarm agents en route
to or from their residences or employer-required range training.
Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to prohibit cities and
counties from enacting ordinances requiring alarm agents to register
their names.
(6) Uniformed employees of private patrol operators and private
investigators licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with
Section 7512) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code,
while acting within the course and scope of their employment.

CSDGuy
11-20-2008, 10:29 PM
The reason I wonder about expired BSIS Firearms training certificates as an exemption to the HSC is that I fit into a different exemption category and expiration doesn't matter (because there isn't one) for my exemption... and I'd like to know about that other exemption.

fairfaxjim
11-20-2008, 10:36 PM
That's what I thought it was for.

Show me where in the code or regs that a BSIS Firearms Permit is an exemption to the HSC. I looked. I couldn't find it. There are only a few exemption codes that a dealer can use for the HSC exemption. Which one does the BSIS firearms course fall under?

ETA: I actually did find an exemption under 12807 (a) (11).. but I do NOT see a corresponding exemption code. So how is it coded? Under X91 Particular and Limited Authority Peace Officers? ETA: Yep. That appears to be the code... however, if the certificate is expired, can you use that as an exemption?

Here's the code that I located:

According to my HSC Certified Instructors Manual, X91 is the correct exemption code.
Particular and Limited Authority Peace Officers
Exemption Code: 91X; Authorizing PC Section: 12087(a)(11)
...
The following persons who have a certificate issued by the Department of Cnsumer Affairs pursuant to Section 12033 PC
...
8. Uniformed security guards or night watch persons.

Nothing is said about expired certificates. A quick read of the BSIS guide doesn't reveal any expiration on the training certificates, it just requires annual refresher training for employment with the cert. Do these actually expire, or are they just not valid without the current training?

fairfaxjim
11-20-2008, 10:40 PM
The reason I wonder about expired BSIS Firearms training certificates as an exemption to the HSC is that I fit into a different exemption category and expiration doesn't matter (because there isn't one) for my exemption... and I'd like to know about that other exemption.

Could you please read that REAL SLOWLY a couple of times. What the hell exemption are you asking about if it isn't BSIS???? What OTHER exemption??? If it doesn't expire, how does that matter?

CSDGuy
11-20-2008, 10:41 PM
Could you please read that REAL SLOWLY a couple of times. What the hell exemption are you asking about if it isn't BSIS???? What OTHER exemption??? If it doesn't expire, how does that matter?X81...

I was curious about the BSIS expiration and relevance to X91. I thought that if you don't renew the gun permit, it expires and you have to go through the whole class again. For mine, if I want to exercise the authority, I have to requal/retest or take the class again.

The way I read the 12807 (a)(11) is that the exemption only applies to someone authorized under 12031 (d) and if the authorization is gone, then you can't use the X91 exemption.

fairfaxjim
11-20-2008, 10:51 PM
X81...

I was curious about the BSIS expiration and relevance to X91. I thought that if you don't renew the gun permit, it expires and you have to go through the whole class again. For mine, if I want to exercise the authority, I have to requal/retest or take the class again.

Thanks. Whew - I thought I was losing it there for a minute.

Do you know for a fact that the BSIS expires? I didn't find that in a very quick read, so am not sure. The HSC manual only says:
The following persons who have a certificate issued by the Department of Cnsumer Affairs pursuant to Section 12033 PC

bandogg
11-20-2008, 11:11 PM
The permit issued by bsis is only good for two years

fairfaxjim
11-21-2008, 9:15 AM
The permit issued by bsis is only good for two years

Nothing in the regs that I know of about expired proof for exemptions. I would guess that expired is expired, and not valid for anything, but that is my personal opinion. That really makes not much sense, as the HSC is good for 5 years.

Trader Jack
11-21-2008, 9:18 AM
The BSIS exposed carry permit for on duty security or armored car guards does not exempt you from the HSC...although a CCW does :D


Yes it does!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fairfaxjim
11-21-2008, 9:21 AM
Yes it does!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn, and I took 3 paragraphs to say that! :D

Anthonysmanifesto
11-21-2008, 9:52 AM
Just to be a trivia geek:
There is an exposed weapons Permit not related to security and its in PC 12050 (a) (1) (A) (ii)

"12050. (a) (1) (A) The sheriff of a county, upon proof that the
person applying is of good moral character, that good cause exists
for the issuance, and that the person applying satisfies any one of
the conditions specified in subparagraph (D) and has completed a
course of training as described in subparagraph (E), may issue to
that person a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in either one of the
following formats:
(i) A license to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(ii) Where the population of the county is less than 200,000
persons according to the most recent federal decennial census, a
license to carry loaded and exposed in that county a pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person. "



But its discretionary and your county has to have les than 200K people

pullnshoot25
11-21-2008, 10:14 AM
Just to be a trivia geek:
There is an exposed weapons Permit not related to security and its in PC 12050 (a) (1) (A) (ii)

"12050. (a) (1) (A) The sheriff of a county, upon proof that the
person applying is of good moral character, that good cause exists
for the issuance, and that the person applying satisfies any one of
the conditions specified in subparagraph (D) and has completed a
course of training as described in subparagraph (E), may issue to
that person a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in either one of the
following formats:
(i) A license to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(ii) Where the population of the county is less than 200,000
persons according to the most recent federal decennial census, a
license to carry loaded and exposed in that county a pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person. "



But its discretionary and your county has to have les than 200K people

This is what I thought the thread was about. Crikey!

fairfaxjim
11-21-2008, 10:15 AM
Just to be a trivia geek:
There is an exposed weapons Permit not related to security and its in PC 12050 (a) (1) (A) (ii)

"12050. (a) (1) (A) The sheriff of a county, upon proof that the
person applying is of good moral character, that good cause exists
for the issuance, and that the person applying satisfies any one of
the conditions specified in subparagraph (D) and has completed a
course of training as described in subparagraph (E), may issue to
that person a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in either one of the
following formats:
(i) A license to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(ii) Where the population of the county is less than 200,000
persons according to the most recent federal decennial census, a
license to carry loaded and exposed in that county a pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person. "



But its discretionary and your county has to have les than 200K people

The exposed license in 12050 does not appear to have the same exemption for HSC as CCW does. The exact wording for the CCW exemption is:

12807. (a) The following persons, properly identified, are exempted from the handgun safety certificate requirement in subdivision (b) of Section 12801:
....
(9) Any individual who has a valid concealed weapons permit issued pursuant to Section 12050.

The problem is that the term CCW is used in one regulation 12807, but not once does CCW appear in the defining PC of 12050. It is essentially an undefined term within the limits of the authorizing and referenced PC sections. In reality, it could be argued either way.

nicki
11-21-2008, 11:21 AM
Yeah, you can get an exposed carry permit if you live in a county with less than 200K, but why bother.

Permit is good only in that "county".

Let's be honest, sheriffs that would issue carry permits readily would probably just tell you to get a CCW permit anyway.

Most sheriffs who are okay with civilians carrying want "Discreet carry", not open carry.

CCW permits are valid statewide, even in SF and Los Angeles:eek:

Nicki